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Record Social Inequality And Its Violent Aftermath, Explained By A Three Minute Cartoon
With the new medium of mass communication in all matters financial and economic having been recently discovered to be cartoons (as the penetration of written text discussing such arcane topics as the Fed, debt and addition ends up being trapped within a very narrow echo chamber), we present the latest and greatest 3 minute summary, which even a third grader will understand, of what is gradually becoming accepted as the most troubling social, economic and political development in America - record social, income and wealth inequality... and its very disturbing consequences, which at last check have resulted in some form of social upheaval in almost every situation.
Courtesy of John Lohman
And some demographic commentary from Harry Dent:
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5 out of 4 people use statistics incorrectly.
And four out of five of those do it on purpose.
and what do they use to teach statistics?
Roll a die.
It is, afterall, a casino.
Twisted bunch of .... well never mind that, how about this:
How in the hell can you talk so passionately about redistributing something that you believe is worthless? WTF. Make up your damn mind and make some sense.
A complete distraction working perfectly well.
Perhaps because it used to be worth something before the corruption.
We were well on our way to correcting this problem before the government started picking winners and losers.
I see why one of the td's finds it necessary to throw out some Doomer porn to the rantier classes. This article has 269 comments and his post on Chris wood has seven comments.
Sorry to beat a dead horse but..... As I have said over and over again, redistribution of wealth has ALREADY happened.
Any surprise that the British students were chanting, "off with their heads!" to Charles and Camilla?? Hell, that was just over a tuition hike!
And it will be interesting to see how Americans react once the IMF comes to their shores, which it will:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/edmundconway/100005702/us-faces-one-of-biggest-budget-crunches-in-western-world-imf/
The thing that this video, and discussions like it, makes me realize is that money, despite all it various symbolic meaning in so many different contexts, really boils down one thing when it's in a person's hand (or isn't): how secure they feel. Secure that they can feed, clothe, and shelter themselves and their family. Secure in the knowledge that they won't be homeless and starve to death. It all boils down to this.
Taking that as a premise for 'what we all really want', isn't it time we stopped figuring out how to 'divide the money fairly' and came at the issue from the other direction - namely, how do we make sure that everybody feels 'secure' that they will have food to eat and a place to call home, while still producing the things (food, energy, stuff, etc.) that it takes to make that a reality? I think we really need a new paradigm to even begin to discuss how this could be made into a reality. I mean, can we all agree that this is a good starting point, even if it's one that is very hard to visualize because it's so outside our 'normal' thinking about money and why we want it? It seems to me that the smart people (that would be us, by the way :-) )need to start figuring some shit out. What we got ain't working.
The reason we're kinda screwed is because of the focus on "money." Money is just an abstraction. What matters is how society is structured.
Most people will work for their dinners if you give them the opportunity. If we reach the point where most people aren't working, it's not a failing of the species, but of our approach to society's structure.
Money also represents something that can be saved, and possibly even used (via interest, or other) to make more. The reason for this is to have a means of support when one grows old and cannot work. At some point, most people reach a stage where barter is physically impossible for them. A change in society to deal with this issue would be a signifigant one.
You're saying money is just an abstraction, but you're not drawing the obvious conclusion.
So, what would/ could society's structure look like if we redesigned it asking completely different questions than the status quo? Can we even imagine a different system where money as we know it is irrelevant? What other symbols can we use to communicate the work we do into providing for our needs, without the overhead and corruption of the current monetary system? If we can figure out a way to redesign the system effectively, the new normal would make rich people look like they were 'hoarders' rather than whatever they are viewed as now. In the context of a new societal structure, it would make no sense for people to over-consume or hoard, because their idea of monetary security would be fulfilled by that structure, instead of an over-exagerrated desire to take everything they can.
It's hard to think about these questions, because it's so out of context for the way we've done things our whole life. As I'm sitting here writing this, my brain keeps trying to categorize these new concepts into ones I'm already familiar with - free market, value of labor, socialism - and it doesn't help that these old concepts have so much baggage attached to them. Makes it hard to think clearly inside a new paradigm...
Weeellll...I don't know if we want to reach a point where money no longer exists, or is "irrelevant." There are physical limitations we need to respect so we don't break the planet, and money may be the best method of enforcing compliance with those limits.
But for sure we can recognize the importance of certain of life's necessities and provide them as elements of a healthy society, rather than trying to derive profits for third-parties. It really is in the interests of *all* societies to educate children, for example, and the way we've chosen to do it doesn't seem to work very well here in the US and doesn't seem to make anyone very happy.
I lean in the direction of decoupling means of survival from the financial system as much as possible--providing enough to eat and a place to sleep for everyone is well within our means as a country, and would ensure that the participants in the profit-system were motivated and WANTED to participate. That eliminates most of the conflict between owner/worker rich/poor that currently threatens stability and domestic peace. Return to labor-intensive production of the most crucial needs addresses unemployment and greatly increases the marginal utility of strong backs and skilled hands while also reducing consumption of limited energy stores.
As to how to get there, well yeah, that's a real trick. I think some motivated people have to put together a sustainable organization as a demonstration of what is possible. There are some major obstacles, but we're smart monkeys. I'm pretty confident it can all be done. Honestly, if a few hundred of ZH's like-minded posters settled a village somewhere, we'd stand as good a chance as anyone, and based on what I've read, there's a pretty wide array of skills and backgrounds represented.
What is thy bidding, Tyler ?
In the poorest countries on earth, the upper sub-1% control well over 90% of wealth, income and everything else. The way they prevent revolt is through the police state.
It's a self-fulfilling tale: as wealth gets more concentrated, laws have to become more repressive to quell the cries of injustice.
Here in New York City during the Gilded Age (aka the Robber Barron Age) they built armories in each neighborhood, capable of housing hundreds of troopers and a cash of weapons. They were there to quell the labor demonstrations and pro-union movement that was a response to the extreme income inequality.
Today's equivalent has been deceptively sneaky. Your movements can be traced, your conversations recorded and everything about you is public property. Your rights may be suspended if deemed necessary. Your well being is increasingly subjugated to the needs of the state. But who exactly is the state?
The argument that backs continuing on this path uses pseudo-Darwininan evolutionary arguments about "survival of the fittest". That might have been true long ago. These days more people are born to wealth than are self-made. That's the tipping point of a self-reinforcing concentration of wealth and a political plutocracy that makes laws to keep it that way.
All good points...but I would venture to add the Political plutocracy who will in the end do what is best for themselves, and will never legislate themselves into the poorhouse.
I am very suspicious of all these kinds of presentations. Most of them are based on IRS data and reflect reported income, and of course as marginal rates at the top come down, those people, who have some control over how they take their income, report more. I saw this a lot in the Pickety-Saez work that had the Obama crowd all excited in 2008-09---you would look at their time-series tables and see ridiculous changes in income distribution from one year to the next, clearly not the result of major structural changes in the economy, but easily associated with changes in tax rates, cap gains rules and the like.
And people who use census bureau data are only looking at answers to questionnaires dealing with gross pay, that may or may not be reliable, and leave out huge amounts of income: benefits like health insurance, and govt assistance of various kinds including tax preference items that help the middle class, as well as things like food stamps for the poorer folks.
Doing this right would be a very hard, data-intensive project that probably should focus on after-tax income plus employee benefits plus government transfers (cash and non-cash), and I have yet to see anyone do it right.
All in all, we probably are seeing some increased inequality, but this scare-mongering is mostly just based on people misinterpreting data and/or seeing what they want to see.
However, I do think that the technology-driven opportunities to compound money the very rich already had, has widened the gap considerably. When you have individuals making a billion dollars on structured instruments, that is going to drive the numbers. A lot of this is a gap between those who can afford to risk money, and those who cannot. "Sophisticated" folks of means have many more opportunities to compound their wealth, and access to a wider array of accurate information to minimize their risk.
2 Points.
The video does not take into account the definition of household. It has changed dramatically since 1967.
The video doesn't consider transfer payments as income. That has also dramatically changed since 1967. Great Society anyone?
Transfer payments certainly count as spendable income, but they don't have the same social effect as earned income. The transfer recipient feels bound to government and dependent on government (which is an intent of the program) whereas the citizens who are able to meet their essential needs and aspirations through their own work are more independent of government.
Dependency breeds discouragement, resentment and depression, while independence and self-sufficiency encourages an optimistic outlook and a resistance to the encroachments of government on liberty.
Wars of independence are never final. They have to be re-fought every generation or two.
The technological and competitive changes in the investment world has, no doubt (on the surface) helped lower net worth investors get into the game. On-line flat-fee brokerages is really the main driver here. But, if you make a comparison to how technology has helped the "sophisticated" investor as compared to the "normal" investor....the difference is light years apart. Yes, technology has allowed more people into the game, but that same technology - and technology only sophisticated investors have access to (HFT, Dark Pool, inside info, etc) has given those who can afford it, an advantage that is almost incalculable. The sad truth is - in my mind - is the things that let more "normal" people in the game, has just provided more cannon-fodder for the sophisticated to rip-off. Charles Schwab, et al, may get credit for introducing a whole new level of social class into investing, but the Goldman Sachs of the world have made sure that they are basically Marine Core recruiters.
From a sociological standpoint....nothing has changed since time immemorial. All kinds of "crats" from Aristocrats to Plutocrats to bureaucrats (in the charge of the fore mentioned) have used the masses of populations to maintain their lifestyles. Whether it be in war, economic or political strife, the price paid for any country's or any system's viability has always been its poor and middle class. Die on the battlefield? you, my friend. Suffer from economic strife (usually caused by the rich taking advantage of the poor...until the poor cave and run out of money or credit)...you, my friend. Suffer the consequences of elected official's greed, idealogy or ignorance? you, my friend. This shit has been going on in every age and every society in the world since God knows when. The Poor Russian bastard who froze and battled at the gates of Stalingrad surely had no compelling, practical reason to defend the assholes who ran the country.....the poor Americans who got their asses shot off or their nuts blown off in Vietnam surely had no valid reason to support the morally bankrupt government who sent them there....no. We all do it because of conditioning. We do it because we "love our country." When worthless assholes like Charlie Munger or Dennis Kneale basically say that the poor people who do the living and the dying and the sacrificing in this country should just "suck it up" and do what they need to to allow these rich, priveleged fuckers to carry on as always.....because if they can't carry on as always, "We" will not have the shit, eroding-wage jobs that in normal times keeps us quiet and compliant....well, That is when I start writing stuff like this. Give me a country where I can work hard, get paid for it, live in dignity, die with dignity, and not have the worthless fuckers rub my face in their arrogant greed, and I will be happy. The problem is....do you guys realize what it would take to actually have this kind of country? If I said it in words, I would probably be guilty of something. Yes...I would. What our founding fathers did to form the "perfect" union is now a crime here. Patriotism now is defined by our masters as being subservent. NO! true patriotism is to be revolutionary, if not in arms, then in ideas, voice and in collaboration. True patriotism is understanding what kind of monument to decency, fairness and success this country could be if it was not being sucked dry by a class of people who who consider all but their own power and wealth to be of no consequence. If there is any justice in this world, then these evil forces will be subjugated, drawn, and their remains covered with salt and lime and their history reviled by all who live after us.
@ Arist.----well put.
I thought you people were kidding about buying gold...
suckers...NOTHING is coming,
I had a (non-Marxist, BTW) Economics prof back in the 70's. His research, based on game theory, showed that in any quasi-capitalist society (since, when the gubmint controls about half the economy, we can't pretend it's really capitalist, can we?), the people who start the game with the most money inevitably end up with..
ALL THE MONEY.
Innocently, I asked "What happens next?".
He gave a little laugh, and said "Forced redistribution, and then the game begins again".
+1
Yep. We did the same in qm.
wow.
I am sending this video to friends, I would urge you to do same, send to white house, congressman, huff post.
I read all the comments here, all the vitriol and fear, all the "the problem is" and "the way to fix it is," and I can only wonder if watching past empires tear themselves apart looked the same.
Good luck to all.
I think you are on the mark.
The Financial Sense Newshour (Puplava) recently interviewed author Michael E. Newton about his book The Path to Tryanny. It is about 44 minutes in length, and can be found here: http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fsn/~5/G_V9eSzOy7I/fsn2010-1208-1.mp3 (<- direct link) or among the interviews on this page: http://feeds.feedburner.com/fsn
The synopsis: Western civilization is risking the return of tyranny by increasing the size and scope of government. Throughout history, free societies descended into tyranny when their populations realized they can use the power of government to give themselves benefits at the expense of others. The Path To Tyranny examines how and why each of these free societies descended into tyranny and evaluates the current prospects for the United States.
The disscussion about Rome seemed particularly relevant to what we are doing in modern times. Five hundred years of kings and a fairly stable society due to balance of power, then a switch to great leader/populist rule with the advent of Julius Caeser, which marks the start of the slippery slope they never recovered from.
Jesus this video is idiotic.
Economics is NOT a zero-sum game.
Why not look at standard of living for all five groups compared to a benchmark of the rest of the world?
If we have more Pages, Brins, Gates, Ellisons inventing companies from whole cloth and creating millions of new jobs and entire new sectors -- while making themselves billions in the process -- who gives a shit? That's great for society.
Groupon went from zero-to-3.5 billion in two years. Who gives a shit about how much money the founders made?
Jesus, this class warfare shit is straight out of the Communist Manifesto!
Economics is not a zero-sum game.
For Christ's sake, read a frickin' book.
Yes some of the rantier classes should read more and post less.
Hey there- tiny swinging dickey
Get out of your ivory tower and touch the earth. All those Jobs' jobs are in China.
America was sold out by the political whores from both parties.
The old truism "Don't fight the Fed" may well have been true when America was the world's largest Creditor Nation.
Now that she is the WORLD'S LARGEST DEBTOR NATION (and growing exponentially) we will find out if printing money and clicking more zeros on a computer screen will make a nation.
Good Luck to you true believers. I, for one, am watching commodities sky rocket from Ben's printing and China's panic to dump dollars into anything but U.S. paper.
I don't see how any of that is going to sustain this economy.
dir -- Amen. They want everyone to believe it is an zero sum game so they crank up the class warfare and fan the redistribution flames (which is also good for driving traffic on this site).
Our bottom quintile is top quintile in the world. All discussions about poverty should be on an absolute basis, not a relative basis (unless one believes in economic equality for all -- an ideology I thought we defeated a couple of decades ago).
And as others have pointed out, all of the data ignores government transfer payments to the poor and conveniently neglects to note the top 10% pay 70% of all federal income taxes and the bottom 50% pays less than 3% of all federal income taxes.
Why anyone would want to begrudge, say, Steve Jobs making and keeping an enormous sum of money is beyond me.
Bob Sac
I agree that the discussion shouldn't be "class warfare". I think arguing the disparity between the upper and lower quintile can be a mug's game.
It is the middle three quintiles that sustain the country, not the two Welfare Quintiles.
How much, again, was it that Paulson robbed for his buddies ? Kill Lehman, but give fresh blood to his pals.
Give me free market capitalism with minimum necessary rules to keep the crooks in check, but do not tell me our current Crony Capitalism (with a direct pipeline to Welfare handouts from the Fed and Treasury) is what is going to sustain this country.
I do not begrudge anyone making lots of money even if the government is helping them in some way. I view that primarily as a government problem and not the problem of the person using government stupidity (which abounds) to their advantage.
The govt is picking winners and losers and the only way to fix that is to have the government stop picking winners and losers - which would require radical change in who represents us (there may be one or two senators who could stay).
If the government anoints me as a winner, I will use it to my advantage. Unfortunately, it appears they have me targeted as a loser -- I give them many times more than what I get (directly or indirectly) from government.
Economics may not be a zero-sum game, but the distribution of money is. And that's the sorry sideshow that so many folks here are hung up on.
This part is hard to understand. The economy is globalized.
How looking up at the rest of the world in terms of salary ofuscates all the zero sum game processes existing now?
Production is consumption. Nobody produces more than he consumes. Not a single entity on Earth.
On a finite pool of resources, an economy can grow faster or slower. No matter how fast this economy grows, it does not remove all the zero sum games existing right now.
Yea and everyone supporting professional sports this weekend should glue thier mouths shut.
The salient point is the timeline numbnuts
1970's is where everything started to go to Hell.
Income started its separation between the rich and the poor thanks to Tricky Dick. Once inflation became the necessary economic tool what the hell did you think was going to happen you Moe-Ron?
Inflation systemically makes the rich MUCH richer, (and by the way all those unrealized gains are not subjected to income tax - HA!) and the poor can keep going down the ladder of substitution from steak to burger, to cat food,,.,, to the cat! Funny....and they call the institution the fed...and they starve people!!!
It is not about taxes, though taxes will help the symptom. It is inflation, our fed, and our systemic flawed monetary policy. Inflation bends the poor over until it kills them.
The whole sideshow about tax policy is just a distraction so that the great unwashed never see the man behind the curtain.
Wake up.
Inclined to agree. Inflation starting with Nixon and perfected by Carter is as they say "taxation without legislation." And the BenBernank understands that the only chance of servicing all of the debt that exists is via a depreciated currency (hence his monetary choices).
The reason they pursue this policy now is to avoid the pain of marking assets to market. So they apply the opiate of inflationary policies and massive government fiscal non-sense to patch things as best they can and show the masses "we're doing something about the problem."
Since most people are not very bright and intellectually lazy (albeit well versed in things Hollywood and sport related), they do not understand they are like the frog in the pot and the water seems to be getting warmer.........but there is a football game on tonight.
Pssss...it was the drugs.
Down with the rich? I say down with the poor. What have the poor done for me lately. The top ten percent pay fifty percent or more of the taxes.. they pay for your roads your unemployment your food stamps and your disability checks so you class warriors who really have no class can rant about how the evil rich have done you wrong and they are the reason why you are a loser. Some of you need a financial education and a little entepreneuralism. Down with the poor! We don't need them nohow.
The first thing poor Jewish immigrants did when they came to new York was to grab a food cart and hit the streets. Looks like most of them have done ok. There are still lots of opportunities but some of you latoc losers would rather complain about the rich. Go back to latoc and check out the mountain house sale on # 10 cans and go back and hole up in your bunker or watch opra with your welfare buddies or whatever you brave class warriors do during the day to avoid working.
burns your fat ass dont it tool? you keep "working" ; )
You keep collecting your government check as long as you can. At least a tool is useful to the world. Glad I can be one.
you misinterpreted the meaning of "tool", ya Tool
I think there are quite a few new people here from LATOC. I think that site shut down. there was some good info there on preps and such but a big majority of people there were total pessimist losers. They actually WISHED for downfall and disaster. Disgusting. There is nothing wrong with being realist and making whatever preps, but wishing for disaster is disgusting.
ZH better watch out and use some selective culling in order that this informative site doesn't turn into a total doom wishing cult posting site.
Anyone here ever encounter the economic philosophy of Social Credit?
It was proposed back between WWI and WWII. I'm grossly simplifying here, but in effect, it had an operating taxation premise something like:
1) Small government, focused on a core set of duties, and no more.
2) Money collected throughout the year by the government (taxes/rents/fees etc.) first pays for the gov, then the excess is pooled.
3) At the end of the year, the pool is divided evenly (w/o respect to income or social status) amongst the population, a "Social Dividend" for being a member of the society.
Social Credit proposes a lot more than this, but this part seems to me to be the impartial (mechanical) forced transfer payments type system that many here might like. I'm on the fence in regards to it. On one hand, it seems better than the biased transfer payments system we have, where I'm forced to pay in, and have no say that the money in large part goes to well connected special interests. On the other hand, if such as system existed yet provided substantially less benefit to me than one in a neighboring country, I might just decide to relocate.
Worth reading about, and it does raise the question about transfer payments: is it the tactic itself that is objectionable, or the favoritism inherent in our current system that rubs the wrong way, or both?
Not familiar with the concept, but "Social" and "Credit" conjure up bad images for me and seem to frequently relate to things that rarely work out as intended.
Croak
Tried in Canada- Quebec, BC, and Alberta. But since money is controlled by the central government, it was like being half-pregnant.
Madoff kid found dead.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_madoff_son
How about a system that isn't rigged so that a handful of financial criminals and fraudsters can't consolidate all the country's wealth to themselves with impunity?
Give me a break with the "wealth redistribution" bullshit. We already have wealth redistribution... from the (formerly) middle class, to the financial elite. It's been going on for decades. Get a clue.
This has zero to do with class warfare. It is about fraud and criminal activity being rewarded. It is about honest people having their money and their kids' futures STOLEN from them by billionaire criminals in fancy suits.
So how did the evil rich steal money from you. I know I shouldn't ask because I am going to hear the typical mass delusion but how did they specifically steal your money?
Actually I should be more specific. Some people call me rich. How did I steal your money and your children's future?
Well now Little dick
I don't know if you are "rich", whether you have the biggest Dick in the room (you are alone aren't you?), but you sure like to stir the pot.
When I write cheques to the government- payroll deductions, sales taxes, property taxes, endless fees and permits- I am being forced to write a cheque for Goldman- yes, Goldman and the financial cartel.
It is these financial criminals that have access to the Fed and the Treasury that the rest of the business community does not have.
So I don't know what the fuck you have or don't have, but I sure as fuck am pissed off that I have to work my ass off and my grandchildren will be working their asses off to pay the debts of the criminal bankers and their political whores.
We exist. We have. Quod erat demonstrandum.
Although, and to the point, the post you are responding to was railing against not simply "rich", but a particular segment of rich that presumably benefits from crooked rules and systems. I think he's on to something, don't you? If we could ever shift to a society wide paradigm of most money being earned by honest work, effort and skill, then anyone wanting to tax the rich could be easily labelled as a wanna-be selfish thief. At the moment, I tend to agree that a number of selfish thieves have use regulatory capture and lobbying to set up systems that turn entire industries into virtual personal ATMs.
Rather than recover ill-gotten gains via taxation as some sort of claw-back, I'd prefer to just alter the rules of the game so that money isn't being so easily funnelled to certain low places in the first place.
it's the skimming by govt/wall street.
Neal Kashkari described the first TARP amount. They pulled $700Billion figure out of the air, literally.
with the $700billion they could have back stopped deposits to prevent widespread bank runs and let the banks and hedge funds who took too much risk crash and burn. There would have been chaos in the markets but order would have been restored with strong hands stepping in to pick up the assets. We are now continuing extend and pretend.
They print money, issue and sell bonds, then buy them back, (now as little as a month later), racking up debt for Americans and passing 100's of millions in profits to the bailed out banks. This has nothing to do with lending to the local job creator to grow wealth. This is only benefitting a few insiders on wall street and in govt.
Credit is not getting to Main street where it is needed.
Quite a strange question to ask.
That is your terminology and I wont use it.
Ponzi schemes are generally expected to concentrate wealth in the hands of a few by transfering it from bottom to top through various incremental incentives. The only wealth existing in a Ponzi is the wealth sucked up from the bottom.
Here's a means for "evil rich to steal from you"
Are you telling that Ponzi schemes are not into action?
Well I didn't read all the posts here so if someone has already expressed a similar view, then good we are in agreement.
I found myself thinking that this video is about a century too late. here is why:
The entire US has been caught up in, and embraced the "American Dream" for about a century now. This has become an ingrained psychological factor in why there has been little in the way of information of this type distributed until this latest depression. It has been a routine respone to people who attempted to point out America's wealth dispaities "yes, it is true some people are rich, but so can you be rich. This is America". This response has been iterated for decades by even the poor, who always held out some kind of hope that fortune would turn their way, and they could join the ranks of the exclusive wealthy.
Now, it would appear, that to many people the reality of that dream being just that, even a pipe dream, is beginning to settle in. So a major and complete psychological shift has to take place in the population as a whole, that there will be the very poor in America. There will be the middle claass, and there will be the wealthy.
I think Americans have overlooked/buried the whole class structure as it exists in other countries based on the "dream". There is an awakening on the move that has reality coming at Amricans like a freight train. There is no dream for 150 million of your people; it has become a nightmare.
Where does it go? I don't know for sure, but I think some form of violent restructuring is inevitable. The real question is when?
Violence from the poor has occurred on a regular basis. With only a couple of notable exceptions it has failed to overturn the existing power structure. Evolution and chance black swans not revolution has caused the most change. The top thirty percent can always control the masses when they choose to do so. We have the best weapons and organization. An unorganized rabble has no supply chain or any way to maintain the field for more than a few days before they are easily scattered by superior weaponry and tactics. Rare is the exception to the rule that poor people can not overthrow a government without the active involvement of most of the upper tiers.
In the case of the US though, there a large segments of the poulation that are well armed, organized, and supplied. And they have been preparing for this event for some time (not necessarily based on economics, but politics also) and have the means to quickly recruit millions.
I would not be too quick to write off the power of the disaffected in the US, they are actually richer than they believe, and will come to this conclusion with some prodding from a leader.
It is in making wealth a relative comparison that people lose perspective.
For instance, how poor are the lowest 20% in the US, compared to the lowest 20% in Mexico?
Actually I hang out with this fairly small group of well armed and well supplied people. They believe in the ant grasshopper parable. They and I will be fighting on the side of order, not disorder. They will not ally with socialists. These are mostly new republic unrepentant john birchers. And we are very well armed and most have military training.
Then it sounds like there will be more than several factions competing with the rulers for power when the powder keg blows.
It would surprise me if alliances (even if they are unholy) do not get inked. As usual, trickery and deceit will destroy the alliances, but they may serve to effect some change.
Trickery and deceit are the way order will be maintained. Naive rioters are easily split. Look at your history. The masters of trickery are those who support the status quo.
I love this last inter-change.... playing in my mind...a new script for the movie...it's...it's... Warlords, bitchezz. Divvy up into territories controlled by BigDick, JoeBlow and etc. HOT DAMN....we will make it to true "third world" after all! I was beginning to have my doubts......
I agree with the comment about naive rioters.
However, I am speaking about a time when the circumstances are much, much more grim than those that would trigger riots.
Rioters are thugs, and do not care to change the socio-econo system.
I am talking about when 150 million people are in survival mode just to eat, and sleep somewhere safe or warm.
When that happens, you had best believe that they will have an effective socialist leadership, organization, and backing. Their main focus in the hunt for "equality" will be the top 20%. I would suggest to you that only 1 or 2 % of that 20 are even remotely interested in preparation for events like these. Your group is actually very small. In terms of history, when the masses decide to finally act together, the small group and the top is done.
Sure the leaders will profit, but that won't matter to people at the time because they will have regained the one thing lost that matters most - Hope.
Personally, I'm not concerned. I have all the resources I need to live out my life at a pretty good level of comfort, complete with supplying all my needs for as long as I live. And I have no heirs. So charity will be my beneficiary.
Here is also a brief analogical story for you:
Whenever I sit ouside, I watch and listen to the birds. Very relaxing and enjoyable to see the way various species and sub-species forage and eat; and to hear all the songs and melodies they produce. And then, all that peace is disturbed by an obnoxious feathered loudmouth, who is intent on not working for his food, but stealing it from some other distant kin, and continually rattles out his caw, caw, caw. I usually get up and sling shot the braggart bastard.
Unfortunately in the USofA, the "braggart bastard" ate those content with eeking out an existance and living harmoniously with nature.
The fleas ate the dog...
God made men; Samuel Colt made them equal; and the (D) & (R) Oligarchical Collectivist/Kleptocrats made them all criminals
Little dick
Your thesis has a fatal flaw.
You need not fear the poor. It is the Nouveau Poor that you need to fear.
Many of them are fighters returning from Foreign wars.
Trillion dollar deficits piling up exponential debts bumps into budgetary impossibilities including the military.
The Praetorian Guard needs to be funded.
And as you continue to create these islands of wealth, you make your kind that much more visible and vulnerable.
I have a few coins, but I don't advertize.
My name is junior.
I have history on my side of the argument. You are right the new poor are the most dangerous but even for the few people who have 2000 rounds of 308 what do you do when it runs out? I think there may be some episodic disorder but I doubt you will ever take up arms against the.government in your lifetime....but you can continue to dream.
Junior
I have no need to take up arms. Others may well do so.
I have watched this country deteriorate for at least a generation. Some made fortunes from the legislation of their political whores, some have now lost everything.
The numbers of people who lost in this rigged game, far exceed those of the parasitic "winning" class.
And I too, will cite history. The fall of the Roman Empire (read Gibbons-1776), the French Revolution (the political elite literally lost their heads), and, yes, the American Revolution (the end of colonial enslavement to the political elite and the death of their enforcers).
America is one of the few countries on Earth where owning weapons (guns) is a right.
Whether the catalyst is Internal or External, borrowing and printing pretend wealth to save the criminals that got us into this Debt Monster in the first place, will not last very long.
As I posted before, I would worry more about the battle-hardened Roman soldiers returning home to what is left of the country they thought they were fighting for.
I agree with you. I think the US government+wealthy are well prepared for a civil uprising.
Truthfully, there's nothing I want more in the next 40+ yrs of my life before I croak than stability and social contentment. But the way things look and feel right now, I can feel the gathering storm on the horizon. I hope it won't happen, or if it does I hope it will be quick and harmless with enough of a shock to change people's perceptions peacefully.
I agree with that hope.
I also happen to think that this cycle of downturn is not the one that will start a "revolution".
I think there is at least one more really good, really lucrative run up in the economy and the personal wealth of the top 20%. The run up will be really good for the next 40%, for a while.
Then when it crashes again and more than 60 % of the population realizes there is no more, and no more hope, then there will be revolt.
I am of the opinion that this will take roughly 22-32 years to happen, or something like 3 complete 8 year economic cycles, and then the down cycle that accompanies occurs will be the mother of all downturns.
If this holds true, I will not see it. Well, not coherently, just drugged in an old folks home!
A ten to twenty year history of tough times and episodic riots has been common in the usa. Nothing unusual here. It will make for great investment opportunity for those willing to take it.
I dont think so. In parallel, in the US, another mentality has been developped. There is nothing wrong with being rich.
Being rich is no longer a condition that comes with wrong and right in it but a condition that comes with nothing wrong in it.
Rich people in the US have grown in that specific segment of population that can not do harm to others, that cannot hurt others' best interests.
A rich person can not take decisions that might better his situation while harming another person's situations. Because there is nothing wrong with being rich.
That is why there will be no violent actions against the rich in the US.
If you want tough actions, better to look on poorer people as US people will go easily against the poor.
Its coming soon to a town or city close to you! Civil unrest because people will not take it anymore! Pichforks and rope will rule the day for the bankster and superwealthy. Two words to Live by: Food & Ammo.
Read my note above yours. Pitchfork are often displayed but are rarely successful.
The rich getting richer is the natural result of extreme economic intervention by the government. TRY to start a small business today. You basically have no way to compete with the already entrenched businesses that have teams of accountants and lawyers to interpret the rediculous tax and regulation system. If you try to ignore the government, like the mafia, they will come to your place of business and seize everything you've ever worked for, because these taxes and regulations are for your own protection.
So the like the mafia, the government protects it's "friends" while you the poor schmuck get reamed if you try to make something of yourself. They keep getting richer and gaining more political power while you become more and more dependent on the government that took away your opportunities to begin with... In the end you become so powerless that you are forced to become a democrat (slave) to the government machinery itself, helping to enforce the will of an unconstitutional, tyranical, corrupt empire.
I agree the answer is less government if we want to promote upward mobility
Years ago, on the forums of Compuserve when I still had a dial up modem and thought 14.4kbps was ripping fast, I would mention these exact same concerns to my American friends and they would hit me like a ton of bricks with commie this and commie that the next day. I was taught that one of the most important reasons for government is the distribution of wealth, but just the mere mention brought the wrath of khan from the well-to-do and well educated in America who were all pioneers in this new thing called the internet.
The most well reasoned arguments went on the lines of simple observation: The US was then very wealthy, had a strong middle class, service industries were booming, and the average lifestyle far outdid any other on the planet. Things were good, because (In their minds) the top-down model of corporate/civil governance worked well, and the more money and power you gave to those who are already at the top, the better life will be. I don't think I have ever seen such incredible devotion to this concept outside a serfdom.
The thing I realized then, as now, is that Americans have one god and it is money. I offer no judgement, people throughout history have worshipped stranger things. The Shinto culture for example worship inanimate things in nature, and money is much more useful than worshipping a particularly nice looking tree in many ways. It is also the measure of market forces, and what better way to express democracy than to manage the way you live your life - from selecting your leaders to supporting your favourite football team than to do it with money?
Perhaps you can see it, perhaps you can't, but I think the love of money and its role in every single part of American society, including religion with its tv-credit-card evangelists, has led many to believe that worshipping those who have the most and casting derision on those who do not is good. The more you have, the more saintly you become, the less you have, the more evil you become. It's a little sickening for me to see this from the outside, but it's perfectly normal over there across the pond.
I think this is why the majority (who cannot see that money is merely a conceptual instrument of convenience that has to be backed with real assets), do not mind the Fed printing more of it. They do not mind that some of those who are super wealthy are crooks, they do not mind being lied to (they expect it!), they do not mind anything at all as long as the person who tells them what to do is wealthy, and they have a small chance at becoming wealthy themselves. This image is reinforced by constantly showing celebrities and the powerful at charities that induces others to give money they can hardly afford to those even less fortunate than themselves, whilst the rich make hardly a dent on their weekly shopping doing the same.
I don't have the answer to the big problems, but I think there has to be a bottom-up management of the economy, starting with educating the populace about the most basic concepts of government and finance. That is never going to happen in the US until you have your own "Marie Antoinette" moment in history, and in order to do that things have to get really really bad. One can only hope most will see reason and avoid turmoil altogether, but I do know one thing: I do not envy the future generation. They have my sympathies, and hope they will believe me when I tell them I did my best.
(Sorry I went on a bit, but this brought back memories - hope it was at least entertaining)
See my comment above on the historical success of poor riots for the last five hundred years.
The USA is a fairly young nation with a people of very diverse background. We didn't have a thousand years of cultural history to fall back on during times of social change.
So instead of cultural or religous tradition, we picked economy as our method of social control.
I think you're mistaken about what Americans "value," overall, but we are presented with pervasive attacks on ego which all revolve around money, so it is a source of distress for many of us.
++1
I think that is one of the best explanations to questions that have perplexed me for years. I think you're one of the rare few who have a good head over their shoulders. Shame there aren't more of you.
Excellent post and very true. Americans DO worship money and celebrity, because 95% of the population has been dumbed-down by the media to that very level.
When you speak of a Marie Antionette moment, I believe that has already come to pass, be it Paulson's gun-pointing at the congress over $700 billion, or Charlie Munger telling people to suck it up, or now, Obama having Clinton do his dirty work, all of this reeks of "let them eat cake" elitism of the very worst kind. The problem is that most people in the USA are too stupid to realize what's going on until it is too late, and it seems that it is already too late for many.
I have friends and relatives who will be retiring in the next 4-12 years (I also fall into that group, at 57, but I have already started my plan), who think they'll be getting hefty pension. I tell them not to count on it at all, because the government (most of them are govt. employees, teachers, etc.) will loot their pension funds if they're not completely underfunded already.
They do not listen. They refuse to listen. They have no alternate plans. What makes matters worse is they will not rise up and take arms. They will accept the pittance given to them and rot.
Doesn't make sense to me. My solution is entrepreneurism, raw capitalism, without government interference. I do not care to pay taxes unless forced to, and run my business at my own expense without government interference. Govt. will get their share AFTER I GET MINE. People need to awaken to the fact that government does one thing well: tax people into poverty. That's why all the tax laws are written for the wealthy and the educated, but, if you start small and are smart, you can beat the system without breaking ANY laws. Sure, there's plenty of risk, but how risky is it to hope you get SS payments if you're 57, and still have 10 years to wait.
Ten years is an eternity to me, still. I won't need SS then, as I don't now, and don't pay into it either.
The solution is for Americans to start businesses, fight for less regulation and lower taxes and keep at it until we win. Start marching to the small business beat.
+1
Thank you! You got what I meant in one sentence. :"The solution is for Americans to start businesses, fight for less regulation and lower taxes and keep at it until we win. Start marching to the small business beat. "
That's precisely what I meant by a bottom-up approach to the management of the economy. Throwing money at the super rich bankers does not make any sense to me whatsoever.
A ten to twenty year period of episodic riots and stressful times has been common. These make for wonderful investment opportunities. There is nothing better for an investor than blood on the streets.
I have read through a ton of comments. Some good points and some...not so much.
I just wanted to point out that having great wealth is no more indicative of hard work (on the current possessor's part) than it is a sign of "god's favor" (as in our long departed puritan brethren's beliefs).
I sincerely wish that those with great wealth would learn to value something more...
Agreed. But as long as there are people hoping for revolution and trying to take our money it is kinda hard to have lofty thoughts. Gotta be prepared!
Thank you, Citizen! A much more civilized statement than I am capable of. However, my additional commentary to those lucky bastards is this: just stop breaking your arm patting yourself on the back in frot of the rest of us. Would go a long way towards more civil discourse if you would kindly just quit taking so much fucking credit for everything.
+1
Yes
The problem is a moral problem. We have lost all moral values in our society and there are no loner any moral absolutes. So everyone is doing what is right in their own eyes. Greed is no longer a bad thing nor is coveting what someone else has, they are now the standard.
The government is corrupt and bankrupt and is not for the people but rather views the people as servents/slaves. The banks are corrupt and greedy interested only in power and money. The unions that maybe at one time represented the working man have become corrupt looking for ways to put more money in the union bosses pockets. Corporations are corrupt and could careless about the workers that work for them, they are not only interested in a fair profit they want ungodly profits at the expense of others and rape their fellow man. The curches as institutions have become corrupt and most of them, not all, tend to worship the almighty dollar instead of the almighty God.
Compassion is a lost word, living in harmony with others is gone. helping others less fortunate is gone and basically only selfishness and greed exist.
Junk me if you like but this is the problem today.
As Gandhi said, "I like your Christ I do not like your Christians"
and finally,
To deprive a man of his natural liberty and to deny to him the ordinary amenities of life is worse then starving the body; it is starvation of the soul, the dweller in the body.Mohandas Gandhi
You're obviously a nice person. I am sorry I called you an idiot - I regretted it even though I thought you were being deliberately stubborn/obtuse.
To quote Archie Leach:
I offer a complete and utter retraction. The imputation was totally without basis in fact and was in no way fair comment and was motivated purely by malice, and I deeply regret any distress that my comments may have caused you or your family, and I hereby undertake not to repeat any such slander at any time in the future.
:)
apology accepted. Peace to you and yours!
1 - Why did you name your daughter after a car?
2 - Archibald Leach was the actual name of a famous actor. Sort of a homage from Cleese and company.
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians"
Well said, that is why they need Christ!
Sorry, I am not buying.
I am also tired of focusing on the 400 richest Americans and how they skew things. Second, there is no scale to show how much larger the pie of American wealth is relative to the starting point of this comparison.
What I do believe is that the more government intervenes to balance things, the more out of kilter it will all become. Which in turn justifies their belief of even more intervention.
I'd like to believe Americans are still of hardened character, who would reject material bribes short term, to unite and defeat systemic and criminal threats long term.
I'd like to believe they'd unite in any way deemed necessary to defeat threats to freedom and the right just 'to be left alone and pursue their passions,' so long as those passions don't impose a harm on another against their will.
I'd like to think there is a collective conscience and intelligence and morality that would make this possible.
I have become cynical, I suppose, as I watch America degrade into a 'me' culture, where money is the end goal, and the notion of a truly wealthy life (it may or may not have anything to do with money - that's subjective) obtainable freely based on individual merit seems forever lost.
When I look at the next generation, and I'm an Xer, I now realize they are more hopeless than my generation is/was.
All the superficial, meaningless, hollow bullshit of iPads and texting and Facebook, who has the 'kewlest new smart phone,' and all the rest.
As long as there is the electronic food welfare card, iPhone & Xbox, Monday Night Football (I love football, so don't get me wrong), TMZ and Jersey Shore, and most importantly of all - the crack cocaine that is credit cards/debt....
I have little faith that anyone is going to feel the least bit of a need to get truly angry and motivated by what truly are rampant and vicious crimes that are plundering Americans' freedoms, liberties and wealth.
So on to the next war, Generation Kill, where you can be liquified and used as grist for the mill, so some imbecile who wouldn't know the difference between wealth and money if it smacked him in his head can get financially rich with his company sealing another criminally obtained contract (bribing politicians and providing their family memebers with 'consulting contracts,' stock tips, or cushy jobs) with our government to provide weapons and material to the military, even much of it that may be defective like not-so-bullet proof armor.
The irony would be comedic if it weren't so tragic.
Americans have a wonderful sense of what's fair and what's not. When they feel the playing deck is stacked so thoroughly against them they'll do what free men and women have done before: They will rebel...
...and bring the guillotines with them.
Hide well you rich bastards, the mob is coming for you.
What would the chart have looked like in the days of Rockerfeller, Carnegie, Ford etc... I would think about the same and that didn't result in civil unrest.
The sad truth about wealth and the wealthy is that many of them do not work at all. History is replete with examples - the French "nobility" of the ancien regime - constantly seeking new entertainments, fashion, etc - anything to escape their "ennui".
Did they go visit their holdings? Did they manage their wealth to maximize their income and benefits to society? Did they pay their taxes as dictated by the King (the ultimate authority on Earth and amongst the nobility)? Did they not see the nobility of a job well-done - honest sweat from honest effort?
Not a freakin' chance. Most of the memoires that I have read indicate that they obsessed on their status, they whined and they chiseled and cheated whenever possible.
Now - on the other hand - the "Enlightenment" and the roots of our own country was also born with the help of some of those folks. Some of them were doing it because they believed - some perhaps were just being trendy...lol. Most of us know what followed.
As the great Janis Joplin sang: "Freedoms just another word for havin' nothin' left to lose..."
Why are incomes becoming more dispersed? Its the same reason behind why the population of american cities is becoming "more dispersed". Because wealth follows an exponential distribution, it grows exponentially. Really basic math is behind the wealth variation over time.
Howsabout a little quote from that noted socialist Andrew Carnegie and pilfered shamelessly from Wikipedia (it saved me the trouble of digging out the book from my basement):
As early as 1868, at age 33, he drafted a memo to himself. He wrote: "...The amassing of wealth is one of the worse species of idolatry. No idol more debasing than the worship of money."[33] In order to avoid degrading himself, he wrote in the same memo he would retire at age 35 to pursue the practice of philanthropic giving for "...the man who dies thus rich dies disgraced." However, he did not begin his philanthropic work in all earnest until 1881, with the gift of a library to his hometown of Dunfermline, Scotland.[34]
Carnegie wrote "The Gospel of Wealth",[35] an article in which he stated his belief that the rich should use their wealth to help enrich society.
The following is taken from one of Carnegie's memos to himself:
If you don’t like getting SCREWED by the Federal Government, then WATCH the YouTube video “OBAMA DOUBLESPEAK, More Lies, Tax Breaks for the Mega-Rich :)” at (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CLiyb7LnCw).
God Bless Wall Street Crooks and the Political Inept!! It’s like “Corky” Runs the Country from the TV show Life Goes On!
I think that everyone needs to listen to this song and spread its all too powerful message to everyone they know. To put an end to the nonsense!
http://wildfireapp.com/website/6/contests/42465/voteable_entries/11985325?order=votes
We need to ask the UN to form a security council to pose sanctions on the ants & grasshoppers.
bwahahahahaha
The shape of things to come:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U_gHUiL4P8&feature=player_embedded
im all for the tax cuts for the "working rich" who make a couple hundred grand a year because a lot of these people employ others. but when youre making millions per yer, its just too easy to get away with paying nothing and you generally are not employing anyone. maybe your corporation does, but its not costing you anything at that point, you have a successful business that employs those folks.
The amount of hypocrisy and contradiction (even in the space of a single post) on here is astounding. It's a shame that those with the most valid and well informed opinions are outweighed by cretins severalfold.