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On Rick Santelli's "Meet The Press" Appearance, A $113 Trillion Future Rounding Error, And The Metamorphosis Of The American Dream To A Nightmare

Tyler Durden's picture


Today, appearing on Meet The Press, in addition to Susan Rice, Dick Durbin, Lindsey Graham, Jennifer Granholm, Harold Ford, and Ed Gillespie was CNBC's uber contrarian voice, Rick Santelli. The topic: reigning in government spending, a topic which will be with America until its last bond issuance, sometime in the next 5 years. And while Rick was quite subdued this time around (it seems the CBOT voice only sees red when confronted with the likes of Steve Liesman), he did compare the crisis facing America now to the events from 9/11... "I think this is an issue that needs to be put out into the air and
see--many, many other states, ultimately, might have--not have the same
balance sheet as Wisconsin, but I think, ultimately, collective
bargaining, even from a federal level, these are big issues, and these
costs need to be put under control.  If the country is ever attacked
like it was in 9/11, we all respond with a sense of urgency. What's
going on on balance sheets throughout the country is the same type of
attack." He also noted the critical Illinois muni situation whose alternative is a forced austerity plan (and considering that various Wisconsin politicans received death threats over what is finally being perceived a loss in some entitlement benefits, the outcome of inevitable austerity in America will not be pretty): "Senator Durbin is from my state:  $3.7 billion muni issuance that they need to bring to the market.  They
haven't paid vendors.  You know, it has come to the crossroads where if
we don't start to make the changes that the governor and the congressman
know are going to take time, we will have austerity forced on us, and
that type of austerity is going to be much messier.  There really isn't
much opportunity for debate here.  We do need action." But most importantly is the realization that nobody has any idea what to do, and as an article just penned by the Global and Mail screams, "Wake up, Americans. Your economic dream is a nightmare." Luckily, with everyone's head in the sand, nobody really minds.

Clip from Meet the Press (and full transript here):

Visit for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

And now for some facts: On February 28, 2001 George Bush said this about his 2002 Budget: “It will retire nearly $1 trillion in debt over the next four years.” Instead, US debt, which at that point was $5.7 trillion, rose to $7.7 trillion. $3 trillion rounding error? Also in the same budget, Bush predicted a $5.6 trillion surplus over the next ten years, which would wipe out all of America's debt by 2011. The latest debt figure was $14.1 trillion. A $14.1 trillion rounding error, or a nearly five fold increase in "rounding errors" in a decade. At this point, the 2021 total debt (including insolvent Social Security) is expected to be $24 trillion. Applying the same rounding error variance to government "projections" means... $113 trillion in debt?

Most jarring, total US Debt to GDP will be over 100% in under 6 months. Paging Reinhart and Rogoff...

A little more on future rounding errors as per Bill Buckler's latest Privateer:

As did Mr Bush’s fiscal 2002 budget, Mr Obama’s fiscal 2012 budget delivered on February 14 includes projections ten years into the future. Unlike Mr Bush’s projections, Mr Obama’s projections for the period between now and 2021 do not contain a single budget surplus. Instead they add up to a cumulative deficit over the next ten years of $US 7.2 TRILLION. The biggest projected annual deficit - $US 1.65 TRILLION - is for the fiscal year ending on September 30, 2011. The smallest - $US 619 Billion - is for fiscal 2018. By 2021, the total annual outlay of the US government is predicted to be $US 5.697 TRILLION. That is an increase of 49 percent over the projected outlay for the current (2011) fiscal year. By 2021, the total annual revenue of the US government is predicted to be $US 4.923 TRILLION. That is an increase of 126.5 percent over the projected revenue for the current (2011) fiscal year. By 2021, government revenues are predicted to have risen 2.5 times as fast as government spending.

How is this to be done? GDP is “projected” to rise from $US 15.1TRILLION to $US 24.6 TRILLION.

The surreal nature of watching as this country dissolves into insolvency prompted the Globe and Mail to write the following must read article, "Wake up, Americans. Your economic dream is a nightmare":

Our southern friends are living the American dream these days, a dream that’s removing them from reality. Their federal legislators, including the President, are imagining a brilliant future that cannot be. None of them, it would appear, wants to awaken Americans from this dream.

The dream? Economic recovery followed by the return of prosperity, built on borrowed money. And not just some borrowed money, but trillions and trillions of borrowed money.

In this scenario, the rest of the world will keep lending to the United States, borrowing costs won’t rise, inflation will be banished, and the punishment that would befall almost any other country that ran such a lopsided budget will not strike the U.S.

Like all dreams, this one has lost touch with reality. In Washington, legislators seem to accept that amassing trillions of dollars of additional debt is a bad idea. Then they argue furiously about a mere 12 per cent of the budget that, even if half of it were to be eliminated, would still leave the government in a deficit position this year.

The discretionary part of the budget contains programs people count on, everything from education to the environment, food inspections to basic research, farm aid and student assistance. The other parts of the budget are debt, the military and the so-called entitlement social programs of health care for the poor and seniors and social security.

Two bipartisan non-governmental commissions have instructed the country in simple arithmetic: namely, that the budget can’t be restored to sanity without cuts to discretionary spending and entitlement programs, and tax increases. In the dreamland of U.S. discourse, however, no one wants to talk about cuts to entitlement programs or tax increases. Worse, just before Christmas, Congress and the President forged a deal that continued the fiscally ruinous tax cuts of George W. Bush, the ones so tilted toward the already wealthy, and pumped even more discretionary spending into the U.S. economy.

American friends who despair of dreamland discourse acknowledge that it will take a “crisis” to awaken enough people so serious action can occur, instead of the shadowboxing that passes for action.

What would constitute a “crisis”? The stock market is roaring; happy days have returned to Wall Street financiers. Interest rates are low. True, the unemployment rate is above 9 per cent, but that means 91 per cent of Americans are working.

Would a huge run on the dollar be a “crisis”? Would a serious surge in inflation? Or a nose-diving stock market? Or another housing plunge? Or all of the above? No one wants any of the above, but what will it take to awaken Americans from their dream?

It might have been thought that their President would try to alert them to the damage being done daily to their future, and to the serious shift in world power and influence away from a country so hobbling itself with debt.

Barack Obama has obviously calculated that the political risks are too great for candour, so he, too, operates within the dream by proposing some restraint on discretionary spending without touching the entitlement programs, the military or taxes. In this, he is complicit with Republicans in deforming the nature of the debate and ill-informing Americans.

He has obviously reckoned that, with the Republicans believing the problem can be solved by discretionary spending cuts alone, he isn’t going to do anything credible before the next election.

So health care for seniors and the poor continues to rise by 8 per cent annually. The bloated Pentagon budget will be a staggering $670-billion. Still, the Secretary of Defence says any cut of more than $9-billion would cripple the nation’s capacity to defend itself.

With a 5-per-cent national sales tax, of the kind every other industrial country has implemented, the U.S. would be halfway home to budgetary solvency. In dreamland, however, such a dose of reality is unthinkable.

Unfortunately, dreamland will soon be nightmareland. And nobody will have seen it coming. Nobody.




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Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:17 | 979823 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

the msm, the ny, dc, and chicago elite will lead us out of bondage and into the promised land. LMAO!!

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:53 | 979902 bankrupt JPM bu...
bankrupt JPM buy silver's picture

Silver lease and LBMA rates moving higher...time to rock and roll

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 19:29 | 980351 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 Multi-kilo lots of Silver bullion selling for over $32/oz. now in London; "The reason they call it the American Dream, is that you have to be asleep to believe it." George Carlin.

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 00:38 | 980771 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

mega will the world cope?


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:58 | 979980 Michael
Michael's picture

Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker is killing two birds with one stone.  He is doing defect reduction and removing power from public unions at the same time. The MSM is trying to make the legislation about one issue money, or the other issue removing collective bargaining rights. Both are necessary to fix the problem in the long run and I applaud the Governor for having the balls to stand up to the unions. We the taxpayers have had the public unions hands ringing our necks for too long, squeezing every drop of taxpayer money from us they could possibly get their grubby paws on. This is just the beginning of public union dominoes to fall and causing the democrat base to crumble. The end of the nanny state is near. Halleluyah!

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:29 | 980067 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

That fascist fukk passes new entitlement programs for his cronies to the tune of $130 M and then wants to cut collective bargaining power to the people? He can go to hell along with Kasich in Ohio.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 22:07 | 980613 Michael
Michael's picture

If you are actually one of the few the public school system taught to read, it's really quite simple spelled out in plain English.

Plunder: How Public Employee Unions are Raiding Treasuries, Controlling Our Lives and Bankrupting the Nation

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:52 | 980116 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

So now you're pro-government and anti-worker.  Do you really think that screwing a bunch of teachers over is going to fix the budget in that state?  You think the tax breaks the governor gave are going to create jobs?  

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:54 | 980128 Backspin
Backspin's picture

The teachers aren't getting screwed.  They are simply being given terms more similar to workers in the private sector.  The deal that they have had up until now is one that involve the taxpayer getting screwed for their benefit.  And yes, tax breaks will create jobs.  The private sector will always deploy capital more efficiently that the public sector.  Always.  The difference is that the jobs produces will actually result in goods and services that are more in demand.


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:08 | 980165 unununium
unununium's picture

Always?  The private sector has deployed your capital to Jamie Dimon.  Are you just peachy with that?

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 20:08 | 980418 DonnieD
DonnieD's picture

Actually, the public sector deploys capital to Jamie Dimon. What world do you live in?

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 10:16 | 981390 unununium
unununium's picture

How wretched and sad to see teacher pay, of all things, blamed for even the slightest part of these problems.

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 00:31 | 980766 Popo
Popo's picture

The private sector??? It was the Public sector that deployed capital to C. A true private sector enterprise would be bankrupt already, and Dimon would be the laughing stock of the financial world. It was only through the public sector that he survived and prospered.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:09 | 980168 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

Terms similar to the private sector???  Teachers in the private sector make more money than public school teachers.  Teachers in the private sector are also free to negotiate with the boss.

Perhaps you can explain to us all how the Bush tax cuts created so many jobs.

The private sector, unregulated, will deploy their capital to Switzerland and the Caymans, after first deploying it to China, India and Thailand.  I don't see how this country could bend over any further to satisfy big business.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 20:13 | 980426 DonnieD
DonnieD's picture

You've almost got it figured out. Just one more step until you reach the conclusion that both the public sector and big business are screwing over everyone else not lucky enough to have their political connections.

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 09:09 | 981235 amsterdamzero
amsterdamzero's picture

+12.5% contribution to your own health coverage.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 21:12 | 980523 Ham Wallet
Ham Wallet's picture

Feel free to look up the avg. Private teacher salary v. Public teacher salary in Wisconsin, dopey.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 22:24 | 980644 Michael
Michael's picture

Actually, this move by the Governor and legislature may count as killing four birds with one stone.


Mon, 02/21/2011 - 00:36 | 980769 Popo
Popo's picture

Wow, you're confused. Private school teachers make significantly LESS than public school teachers.

The rest of your argument falls apart after that one enormous misconception.

And actually, the tax cuts did create jobs....


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 19:36 | 980366 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 This is exactly correct; it's frightening to realize that the morons who junked you probably vote; It's amazing that people can't understand something this simple.

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 00:40 | 980775 Popo
Popo's picture

The "morons" here responded with factual corrections. So mr. iQ 145: what are the comparative average private vs. public teacher salaries?

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 12:57 | 981861 Matt
Matt's picture shows the wage gap between public teachers being $8-$9K higher than private school teachers. It covers the health insurance benefits of the public sector teachers, and pay of unionized teachers vs non-union, but does not cover total benefits of the unionized public teachers compared to non-union private school teachers.

From that article, the conclusion is the only public teachers that are underpaid are the ones who are really good at their job, as the pay spread from highest to lowest performing is quite small.

unfortunately, it does not cover total compensation for public and private employees. the numbers do not at all match the numbers at which are from the BLS.

Which brings up the whole problem that if no one knows or can agree on the numbers, how can anything be resolved? is the Wisconsin State deficit $137 million or $4 billion? That is a huge disparity.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:00 | 980141 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

This is the inevitable conclusion to our expansionary policies...  our ability to collectively bargain is going to be cast aside...  the size and scope of our government dramatically reduced...  and the victors of the wealth gap emerge with even more power...

eventually, we get up the nerve to begin collective bargaining again and the cycle beings anew...

I think the way to look at the WI issue is not "screwing over a bunch of teachers", but rather "not stealing from the general populace"...  You're talking about a zero sum game bud...  it's us or them...  better to be them.  [not that it hasn't already been us for the last 3+ years].

I'll leave you with a closing thought as to the success of failing to throw dead weight overboard...  General Motors. 

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:11 | 980170 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

General Motors was a drop in the bucket compared to the banks.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 21:35 | 980557 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I agree...  so what?

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 00:43 | 980777 Popo
Popo's picture

And Darfur pales before Stalin's purges. Your point?

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:28 | 980209 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Teachers are govt stupid.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 21:35 | 980553 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

Don't be a dick, L.K..  Supporting one politician isn't anywhere NEAR being pro-government.  Take your straw man to hell with you.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:51 | 980117 Backspin
Backspin's picture

Amen, bro.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:19 | 980185 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

I would feel better if he was standing up to the police, fire and hwy patrol unions, but he is not. This is a violation of equal treatment under the law. He is creating a special class- which makes him just another asshole.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 20:57 | 980498 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

Exactly the shit Whitman tried to pull in CA -- making a deal with police and fire. 

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 00:54 | 980787 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Well, the police do carry firearms -- we can't have them going "postal", now can we?  Guess the firemen also need motivation to actually do their job(s) too.  Bottom line:  Neither of these professions should be supplied by the govt. at any level.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 23:39 | 980712 hayleecomet
hayleecomet's picture

Unions are no friend of mine and I think they are as corrupt as our government.  In this case, Walker has exempted the police,firefighters and state troopers because those three unions supported him.  This is all about politics and taking away the unions that support the dems.  Wisconsin was in a good financial position until his tax cuts to large corporations.  He is just another fuck, like the rest of them.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 19:25 | 980340 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

I presume that you want to end ALL unions, not just public.  I mean, after all we have been BAILING THEM OUT and will no see any return of that taxpayer money.  If you don't, then you are just another fucking hypocrite. I agree end ALL unions and ALL bailouts, when a company goes down, fuck em.  Everyone for themselves, I will do fine in a third world economy.  Everyone wants great public services, but does not want to pay for them, fine with me, I can hire and feed my own police force.  I am sure none of you mind ME being the law for a while.  I like where this is going.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 21:12 | 980522 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

You'd better find yourself a patron lord before you think of becoming the "law".  You may have some money and might be the local big swinging dick for a time, but you'll get squashed by the bigger swinging dick if you don't bow down and give it a sweet little suck.

Feudalism bitchez.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 20:22 | 980439 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

The word union is described as a special interest; a group with commonalities.  So to think that there is something wrong with people sharing their ideas concerning their rights is moronic.  Everyone will always form special interest groups.

Now if you have a problem with the way a particular union runs their operation, I understand.  Unions can be very shady.  But hold content for the people involved, not the concept of the union itself.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 22:15 | 980628 lawrence1
lawrence1's picture

You are so ignorant and misinformed that you are hopeless.
This govenor is another corporate whore doing their bidding in the guise of reducing the deficit. Name one republican who goes after the banks or military spending, and name one who supports the common man. Corporate cocksuckers all.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 23:04 | 980686 Attitude_Check
Attitude_Check's picture

Who do you think makes money when the State issues bonds? The Banks


Who gets the future tax benefits of the interest being paid on those bonds?  The Bond holders which tend to the the wealthy (think PIMCO)


Now tell me how it is in the benefit of the Wisconsin taxpayer to increase the State debt?  WHO ACTUALLY IS THE BENEFICIARY?  When you answer that, you know where to point your anger.

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 01:17 | 980838 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Ron Paul and Rand Paul. Now name one banker cocksucking Democrat who has gone after the bankers. Cocksuckers Obama  & Holder just decided that Angelo Mozilo did not commit any crimes. No criminal charges will be filed against him or any other bankers. LOL

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 11:23 | 981577 Commander Cody
Commander Cody's picture

I wonder if Walker will attack the cops' unions next.  I wonder what they'll do if so.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:41 | 980095 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture
I cut this from a rather lengthy article that touches on a lot of problems the country has so far just glossed over or avoided entirely.


Analysis of the Global Insurrection Against Neo-Liberal Economic Domination and the Coming American Rebellion – We Are Egypt [Revolution Roundup #3]

IX :: The Battle in Madison: A Sign of Things to Come

While bloated federal and state spending has grown to staggering levels of debt, and demands immediate attention, any cut in spending or attempts to reduce the deficit must first come at the expense of the organized criminal class that has looted the national economy. Any cuts that happen before that need to be understood as an escalation and extension of the attacks on the American people.

While continuing their attacks on American small businesses and private-sector workers, the global financial elite are now stepping up their attacks on public workers. In this context, the Wisconsin state government attacks against the state teachers’ union doesn’t have anything to do with the old Democrat Vs. Republican divide and conquer debates of the past. This is about people fighting back against their economic oppressors. In Egypt, Mubarak was the Neo-Liberal Aristocracy’s local enforcer. In Wisconsin, Scott Walker is the Neo-Liberal Aristocracy’s local enforcer.

This battle in Madison, Wisconsin, between the American people and the global financial elite, represents the opening salvo, the awakening of an American resistance movement and a sign of what’s to come. 



Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:51 | 980114 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

I think a lot of it has to do with the States and Counties getting huge amounts of revenues from Property Taxes as Real Estate Prices rose.  Now with Real Estate prices tanking the revenues are hugely reduced.  State and County Governments became to rely on those taxes and now they are gone.

Another boom bust cycle from our Fed affecting our daily lives.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:52 | 980254 gs_runsthiscountry
gs_runsthiscountry's picture



And, as federal cuts have steadily increased, the education costs have steadily been transferred to the property tax rolls.

The lowest common denominator....loss of property tax base. That extend and pretend by banks of all size is coming home to roost in 2011-2012. As the foreclosures have started to hit the last 90 days it has been eye opening. I personally watched the bottom drop out of values in my area. I can now throw stones from my home, to homes that have fallen in value 75%+ from the peek. And, you can not collect property tax revenue on a foreclosed home when no one is buying it.

We now read Banks are walking away in some regions of the country from foreclosed homes. Chris Whalen has outlined this many of times in his writings and speeches, and he is dead on.

I would love to be a fly on the wall at our local assessors office for the conversations going on now. Assessments to be released  2-1/2 months....tick tick tick. I have already talked to local officials, as have neighbors, after my prodding. We are already ready to challenge the assessments, as last years was not even close. Also, knowing full well it will be made up via increase in Mil rates.

So, the property owners get screwed again, as banks maybe walking away from property taxes, only to be made up by those who are maintaining their property. How many property owners in 2011 will be faced with the dilemma of falling into the red or even deeper. At what point does this not inspire more jingle mail, even from those who have a strong moral compass. How many will just throw in the towel?

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 19:05 | 980291 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

In my state you can request an assessment hearing every year.  You have to check the City or County website.

I got stuck for 3 years on a few propertys.  One they raised the property taxes from $3,000. to $7,100. in three years.  Now I got it back to $4,200.  Not a victory but a help.  Yet for 3 years I paid into the coffers a lot of money. 

The biggest problem the City faced was that by raising Property Taxes so high it in effect lowered Property values by the same amout as the taxes.  So, as property taxes went thru the roof the property values went down to compensate for the taxes.  As the Taxes are calculated in Buyers monthlly payment as to what they can afford.  So, fewer Buyers, lower prices.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 19:29 | 980347 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Wait until the muni market caves.  You will be taxed, but in a different way.

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 01:18 | 980841 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Federal cuts have steadily increased? In which universe?

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 03:39 | 981016 gs_runsthiscountry
gs_runsthiscountry's picture

You are correct - should have read "state."

It was the state aid I was referring to. K-12 and local college now make up 43% of our local property taxes, w/ the college levy increasing 31% in the past 6 years.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 22:12 | 980619 lincolnsteffens
lincolnsteffens's picture

Whose real estate taxes have been reduced?? Not mine. In fact mine went up 8%, my health care went up 12%, and sales tax last year went from 5% to 6.25%. Now there is talk about  a Federal value added tax. Fuck that. Sorry but bloated Govt. and excessive regulations have to get cut big time before I'll support any added taxes. I've been responsible, finished my last debt payment. I could have applied for unemployment but so far have not. Instead I'm working full time for paid health insurance and a few other small perks. Do I deserve to be forced to bail out the criminal or foolish? I don't think so!!!!

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 09:43 | 981317 Absinthe Minded
Absinthe Minded's picture

Yeah, but the people in Egypt are protesting so they can afford to eat and feed their children. The fucksters in Wisconsin are protesting so they can buy another flatscreen and keep up with the Joneses. Face it we are fucked. No politician has the balls to get up there and say,"This is it, we need to cut 20% of all budgets across the board." That's what we need to do. Even the 5% national sales tax would be fine with me, if it were in conjunction with the government cuts. Everybody needs to take a hit. We've lived high off the hog for too long. Junk away but you all know it's true. And I'm not referring to everyone, I know there are people that are hurting, but their not part of the unions in Wisconsin.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:21 | 979837 malikai
malikai's picture

Ok. At 04:45, in the middle of whatever her name is' bullshit, there is a sidebar saying the population of Bahrain is 1.2 Billion. Really?

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:33 | 979856 digalert
digalert's picture

Like money, a billion here a billion there...

Bahrain population: 1.2 million

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:08 | 979928 fastishplastic
fastishplastic's picture

top writer from meet the press walks into david's office and says "listen we've got a story" david looks up from idol weekly and says "ok hit me", "well it seems a brazilian was killed yesterday in bahrain, and it looks like this is going to cause a major international backlash to the gov crackdown there" david says "that's terrible, that is a story, but tell me just one thing . . . how many is a brazilian??"

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:41 | 979966 Rick64
Rick64's picture

 She says they vetoed the UN on settlements being illegal, but have always condemed them and held them as illegitimate (not authorized by law). Huh?

  Behind the people yet they supported these oppresive regimes for decades.  These politicians are the biggest hypocrites.

 One western reporter gets sexually assaulted and this gets international attention yet hundreds of thousands get murdered, maimed, and raped repeatedly and they are able to ignore this.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:23 | 979840 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

The topic: reigning in government spending, a topic which will be with America until its last bond issuance, sometime in the next 5 years.


So you see this insanity playing out over the next 5 years before.......before what? Why 5 years and not 2 or 8?

Come on Tyler, talk to us. Tell us how you really feel. :>)

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:34 | 979859 plocequ1
plocequ1's picture

Dammit Jim, I'm A blogger, Not fucking Nostradamus.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:10 | 979932 Captain Benny
Captain Benny's picture

The bulk of predictions presented on this blog have come true or are starting to show evidence of coming true.  Not just from the Tylers but from many of the active and smart posters here.  Turd is the prime example, which is why I've been following his blog since day one and also giving feedback actively.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:28 | 979952 Cui Bono
Cui Bono's picture

Let me be the first to say.....

Turdy McPoo and Tyler too! 2012*

*this message approved by the committee to elect somethingthefuckother than what we been getting!


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:27 | 980065 Former Sheeple
Former Sheeple's picture


I'll vote that ticket! Matter of fact, I'll vote for anyone that understands taking in 2.2T and spending 3.7T is NOT making tough choices and spending within our means...

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:57 | 980133 velobabe
velobabe's picture

i knew you were money all a long† the watch tower.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:43 | 979964 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

This guy on YouTube reminds me of most ZeroHedge readers, and his predictions have been perfectly accurate, as well. He's very enthusiastic about silver and offers perspectives that you can't find in the MSM.  As it turns out, he is a big fan of Turd and ZH (sometimes he wears ZH shirts!), and frequently mentions them in his videos.  Pay particular attention to 1:35.


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:07 | 980015 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

Not sure who this guy on CNBC is fan of but it is certainly not Zero Hedge. He has also been right in the past.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:42 | 980064 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Ouch, that's gonna leave Red Neck walking funny.

And just like that, Tyler has snipped Red Neck Repugnicant's balls off at the root. Now his sack swings empty. I guess that makes him a Repugnicunt?

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:55 | 980124 Hulk
Hulk's picture

LOL, Once again, the imagery is overwhelming!

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:11 | 980173 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

“Remember this,” Tyler said. “The people you’re trying to step on, we’re everyone you depend on. We’re the people who do your laundry and cook your food and serve your dinner. We make your bed. We guard you while you sleep. We drive the ambulances. We direct your calls. We are cooks and taxis drivers and we know everything about you. We process your insurance claims and credit card charges. We control every part of your life.

We are the middle children of history, raised by television to believe that someday we’ll be millionaires and movie stars and rock stars, but we won’t. And we’re just learning that fact,” Tyler said. “So don’t fuck with us.”

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:35 | 980215 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

CD - Some advice for you...

Anytime you submit one of your notoriously foggy, transcendental and overly metaphysical posts, it should be accompanied with some sort of surreal, mystical harp music - like "Steam Forest" by Andreas Vollenweider:

But, of course, we need to appeal to the ZH reader, so perhaps you could overlay some machine gun fire or jaw-harp noises:





Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:45 | 980255 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Red Neck,

I thought your ID and avatar was all a farce. You know, Zero Hedge performance art. You've said as much yourself. You mean it's not? Many apologies. I got caught up in the moment and thought I was playing the guy with the knife to your balls wrapped in a rubber band.

My bad.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 19:21 | 980328 asdasmos
asdasmos's picture

Poor Red Neck, things have not gone his way and is now resorting to these tactics.


What a pathetic desperate attempt.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 20:32 | 980448 patience...
patience...'s picture

Har Har.    That's the best comeback you have?

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 01:21 | 980850 55 men
55 men's picture

Tyler got flagged by one person....Gees, I wonder who that could have been.

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 02:02 | 980919 Red Neck Repugnicant
Red Neck Repugnicant's picture

For the record, I never junk anyone.  

In fact, I find it completely meaningless to anonymously and cowardly flag a post as junk without offering some sort of explanation or counter-point. 


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:21 | 980192 velobabe
velobabe's picture

tyler, i applaud your most recent frequency of not only being the author, but a wonderful contributor of comments and involvement in our community. i absolutely sorta get excited when i see brad pitt and your name, tyler durden, in my thread readings. well, cheerio ø

show one's appreciation

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:34 | 980080 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Captain!  The thirty year bond!  She canna take much more!

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:29 | 979841 plocequ1
plocequ1's picture

I will withdraw from society when need be. In the mean time, I will take it as it comes. My life is in Gods hands. So sayeth the lord , The Dow will go to 36,000.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:25 | 979845 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

People could care less about deficits.

Everybody is watching the Daytona 500 and the NBA All-Star Game, and planning their summer vacations now.

The economy is gradually improving, stocks keep skyrocketing, and McMansion prices have stopped going down.


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:28 | 979852 jomama
jomama's picture


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:36 | 979865 Diplodicus Rex
Diplodicus Rex's picture

"People couldn't care less about deficits." There, fixed it for you.

"The economy is gradually improving," Sorry, couldn't fix that one.



Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:45 | 979889 malikai
malikai's picture


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:50 | 979898 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

"The economy is gradually imploding," Sorry, couldn't fix that one.


That's the best I could do with it.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 19:43 | 980364 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

You can't fix it but the Mail & Globe article has the solution, a "5% Sales Tax" that every other Western country has would "halve the deficit". 

Yes Club Parasite amidst the bankrupt clown show they've already created is already working on their next Ponzi scheme sending propaganda down their clearing houses for snake oil in the crony media. This solution always involves taking ever more a piece of YOU for them. This solution never involves less for THEM with budget cuts.

And while Americans 'only' have 35% of their GDP emptied into The Parasite Clubs scam machine, Europes reached almost Communist levels with nearly 60% of societies wealth siphoned away by the parasites. The Globe & mail article doesn't actually mention this fact, that no matter what you pay into Govt, its still goes bankrupt having robbed and impoverished society. Shame on the Globe & Mail, silly fucking scum journolists.

Govt screwing 60% of GDP just makes matters worse. The more you feed the parasites the worse your economy gets. DO NOT ACCEPT SALES TAX. The solution is LESS to the parasites, not more. Don't get fuked over

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 19:54 | 980399 malikai
malikai's picture


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 21:47 | 980582 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

The tax is probably the same VAT pimped by Glenn Beck and O'Reilly back in 2010 which then was essentially the 2% carbon green tax that the global ponzi artists had been planning to implement to fuel the next bubble but I guess it has fizzled so badly they're back with Plan B and have increased it to 5%....presumably to adjust for inflation.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 20:37 | 980464 Jooles
Jooles's picture

rein, as on a horse's bridle, not reign as that of a monarch


So, "The topic:  reigning in government..." should be "...reining in..."

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 21:02 | 980504 cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

nevertheless, plenty o' those bastards could give us apt decription of reigning while in the gubbmint....might as well be the topic

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 21:44 | 980577 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

Thank you for fixing that so I didn't have to.

Tue, 02/22/2011 - 14:28 | 985945 animal
animal's picture


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:49 | 979896 The Axe
The Axe's picture

Yes people could care less!! correct  The stock market continues to more higher and higher correct!   Will that ever change? Will a poor financial balance sheet and a society with diminished skills ever matter?  Can interest rates stay low forever?  Will states be bailed out my the Federal government?   No   long slv,gld,tbt,twm short amzn aapl wfc

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:06 | 979924 Shocker
Shocker's picture

Exactly, People are too busy watching stuff that doesn't matter. Basically anything that keeps there mind occupied.

People really need to wake up to what is happening.


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:33 | 979961 Clown Short
Clown Short's picture

Exactly, People are too busy watching stuff that doesn't matter. Basically anything that keeps there mind occupied.

Panem et circenses.


Mon, 02/21/2011 - 08:47 | 981189 blindfaith
blindfaith's picture


to 'wake up' to what is happening, is to be responsible for curing it.

Look at how long the "cash for Kids" criminal shame lasted in Pennsyvanlia before 'someone' did something.  ONE woman did it, all the rest of the parents held thier mouths shut as did the government workers who know all about this crime.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:08 | 979926 Shocker
Shocker's picture



Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:33 | 979962 Ned Zeppelin
Ned Zeppelin's picture

RT is simply giving us the observations of the data points - not saying whether it is right, wrong, or on the wrong path. I do believe however, that the most important measure of an improving economy is whether things are improving for the many- the numbers can also rise because the elites are simply stealing faster, and therefore I think the unemployment rate is the best indicator of where we are.

As for homes, nada.  Maybe prices aren't plunging for those McMansions anymore, but I know for a fact they are not selling.  Again, the wealth of the many has taken a beating, and has not recovered at all. 

Which leaves us with the measure of the financial health of the TBTFs and the elites: it's called the S&P. 

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 19:01 | 980287 Blano
Blano's picture

Agreed.....most of the time it's just an observation or perspective on what's going on currently, not much in the way of predictions.  IMHO most of his junks are undeserved, but hey that's just me.

As far as a rising economy, who knows.  I'm already on vacation, currently on the Gulf coast of Alabama.  I've already heard a couple locals say they've never seen so many people here this time of year as they do now.  The place is packed, the sun is warm, the beaches are beautiful.

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 08:52 | 981193 blindfaith
blindfaith's picture


Trees that produce an over abundance of fruit are often on their last legs.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:39 | 979972 AN0NYM0US
Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:56 | 979998 azengrcat
azengrcat's picture

Two sports with their heads in the sand in the face of the great credit contraction.

Fidddling with Angry Birds while America burns.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:14 | 980031 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Hey don't diss my angry birds!  That is a cool game, but I think it was infiltrated by islamic extremists.


Listen closely....the birds are saying alah alah alah.  I'm serious!

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 21:03 | 980299 akak
akak's picture

The economy is gradually improving, stocks keep skyrocketing, and McMansion prices have stopped going down.

How's those demands that the tide recede working for ya, King Canute?

Or are you just whistling past the stock pimp graveyard?  I hear plots there are selling out quickly.                                        

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 19:19 | 980321 Azwethinkweiz
Azwethinkweiz's picture

The 1920s, known as “The Roaring Twenties” had been a time of unprecedented prosperity in America, and as the stock market soared, investors used their life savings and borrowed (buying stocks on margin) to take advantage of the boom. From 1920 to 1929, stocks more than quadrupled in value – not because of fundamentals such as corporate production and profits, but rather fueled by rampant speculation.

The economic house of cards came to a screeching halt on October 29, 1929 when the bubble burst.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:27 | 979849 Bearster
Bearster's picture

Keynes promised--and the people BELIEVE--that the central bank can do magic, create something for nothing.  Until the majority of people can question this (and answer correctly) there will be no desire to change a damned thing.

Personally, I think the government--voted by the people every two years--will keep their foot planted on the gas pedal the entire way downhill to the cliff.  And probably keep on the gas even as we enter freefall.

I challenge everyone here to think about whatever largesse y'all get from the government.  If you are employed by the government (federal, state, local, fire department, etc.), or a vendor or contractor... if you collect now, or plan on soon collection SS, medicare, etc. ... unemployment, SNAP, Section 8 housing ... belong to a union in a state that forces employers to take whatever deal the union offers... if you or your employer gets a subsidy for milk, corn, "green" energy ... if your profession is licensed to exclude the unwashed masses, and your income is thereby made greater than it would be in a free market, if you have a "medallion" on your tax, etc ... 

Will you vote to end your pet program?

If not, then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution!

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:35 | 979860 jmc8888
jmc8888's picture

Sophistry.  As if the Austrians aren't as stupid (well +1 INT...for now) than the Keynesians.

But if both are idiot goblins, then what is the point?

Reject the Barack Paul, Keynesian Austrian, fascist FAKE choice.  They're both MONETARISTS, that want to SCREW YOU OVER (yes that includes RON FUCKING PAUL) in order to somehow pay off the debt.

Ron Paul wants to pay off fraudulent debt.

Barack Obama wants to pay off fraudulent debt.

The point isn't HOW we pay off fraudulent debt. It's about whether or not we ARE STUPID TO PAY OFF FRAUDULENT DEBT.

Look around, YOU are just as much of the problem as an idiot Keynesian.

Listeing to the same style, but from different direction, of sophistry.

Glass-Steagall (or go down the fascist Austrian path)

Keynesians are bankstas whores

But so are Austrians.

Those are the facts, and they are not negotiable.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:46 | 979892 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

I agree.  Let it crash and burn.  Then we find out what real value is and who is really worth their compensation.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:06 | 980013 Diplodicus Rex
Diplodicus Rex's picture

OK, lets take your premise at face value. In which case, you are right. The loser in both cases is the US public. Now imagine for a moment you decided to actually do something about what you believe to be true. In order to garner sufficient power to make the necessary change you'd have to be pretty high up the political ladder, teleprompter in chief in fact. So how would you get there? Would you launch a campaign with the main thrust being default? Remember, that default does not mean just debt default. There are two sides to that coin. Every pension fund, savings account and investment portfolio would go the same way. Do you think you'd be voted in? No, I didn't think so.

The US public don't want to hear the truth. Very few people do. They want to believe that the socialist panacea of being forever rich by printing fiat will continue indefinitely, despite the odd up and down. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas. The public will not consciously vote for a fix because that fix is too painful. Look at Wisconsin. Fighting for a piece of the gravy train that doesn't exist.

So what does Mr Paul do? Tell the truth and never stand a chance of being elected or tell almost truths in just the right measure to persuade enough people to put the x in the right box? Once in, he can then do what his economic teaching tells him to do. It worked for O'bummer. His campaign was "Vote For Change". He lied. As soon as he got into office he cranked the fraud up a gear or two. The question is, therefore, how do you get in to make the change when telling the truth will physically prevent you from ever getting in?

That is the dilemma.




Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:48 | 980193 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

"The question is, therefore, how do you get in to make the change when telling the truth will physically prevent you from ever getting in?"


In the "big" picture, you don't.  History shows time and time again this all gets sorted out when enough people die via starvation or bullets.  Growth economics and debt-based economies that promise a better future in a finite system are dead.

We can only hope that we all remember the correct reasons why the system was a fraud after the apocalypse when the rebuilding begins.  Be optimistic, do your job, but be mindful of the state of your neighbor and community.


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:42 | 980250 oldmanagain
oldmanagain's picture


Mon, 02/21/2011 - 10:31 | 981444 Absinthe Minded
Absinthe Minded's picture

I agree with your view to a point. I'm a licensed electrician and I don't care if someone wires their own house, but don't you want to know if the schmoe wiring your house is qualified? We'll probably be using candles in a few years anyway, so it won't matter.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:30 | 979854 jmc8888
jmc8888's picture

If we don't Glass-Steagall, that is our future.

But if we Glass-Steagall, no way is that our future.

Unfortunately we have the 'print for debt' and 'cut to pay debt'....but the debt IS FRAUDULENT and UNPAYABLE.

What is this, the politician's version of a Y2K error? only 2 digits? why not more?

The answer isn't to cut for fraudlent debt. (while some things can be cut...wars...bailouts...defense spending)

The answer isn't to print for fraudulent debt. (while we need to utter credit for mag-lev, machine tools, NAWAPA, space, nuclear, fusion.)

The real answer is Glass-Steagall away, and the forced austerity (imposed or self-inflicted) is moot.  17 trillion in todays debt (not guarantees) wiped away [just as a start] changes EVERYTHING.

That doesn't mean the monetary world isn't real, it IS.  But only because we DEEM is SO.  Not because it actually is.  As soon as we DON'T DEEM IT SO, and implement Glass-Steagall, the paragdigm shifts, and we can recover.

If not, (which would be 100x worse than the most touching greek tragedy) welcome to Santelli's hell.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:46 | 979891 djrichard
djrichard's picture

How about this as a slogan, "Austerity Now - to pay for the fraud"

Banksters must be laughing silly at us.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:02 | 979920 jmc8888
jmc8888's picture


I mean when people want austerity to pay off the bankstas, they are just doing what they collect on the fraudulent debt. 

There is a law that deals with these frauds (but just this once I won't say what it is).

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:41 | 979974 AN0NYM0US
AN0NYM0US's picture

dj - that is exactly correct

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:49 | 979895 Bob
Bob's picture

Exactly.  These sociopaths keep pretending the train is still on the tracks and demanding solutions for keeping it there. 

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:33 | 979858 cossack55
cossack55's picture

5% National Sales Tax. Please! Give me a red magic marker and send CONgress off to the porno shows and I'll balance the budget in about 18 hours (I'm old and slow).  I would think most ZHers could probably do it in about 18 minutes.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:37 | 979870 jmc8888
jmc8888's picture

Glass-Steagall can be enacted over a weekend.  Just like FDR did...a banking holiday.

It wouldn't take long, that's for sure.  It's always been the answer, our country just forgot.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:42 | 979884 Misean
Misean's picture

That one note you keep pounding on is starting to become an annoying whine.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:02 | 979915 jmc8888
jmc8888's picture

Oh really?

So if the car you're in is heading to the cliff, and someone keeps yelling....brakes! brakes! brakes!...that to you is an annoying whine? Must be.

Nice sophistry.

It is the answer. So shout it from the rooftops. Because NOTHING else pulls us out....and it CAN pull us out.

But go ahead and get mad at the answer being stated over and over again, I'm sure you have something better. ( don't)

Quit listening to your own mental sloth on the issue.  Until Glass-Steagall is passed, I'll be saying it in every post.  Get used to it.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:21 | 979944 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Glass- steagal was passed in 1932. Why wasn't it effective up until it's passage? Or was the whole financial system perfect until 1998?

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:59 | 980135 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

Take a look at a chart of private and public debt from 1998 to present.  Glas Steabal wasn't perfect (what law is?) but it was a very good idea. 

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:23 | 980195 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Not saying it wasn't a good idea, but it is not a cure all. Also, public debt accumulation is not related to glass-steagal. The ability of commercial banks to engage in all types of finance is.

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 17:24 | 982836 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Agreed.  There are plenty of laws right now that would do the job.  The quixotic resuscitating old ones won't help if they are not enforced, or if the Fed changes it own accounting rules at will.   There are plenty of windmills out there.   Just keep tilting.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:45 | 980258 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

There is something to the idea of just defaulting. 

What of Iceland?

It's like getting a divorce vs. staying in a bad marriage. Just cut it loose, you can't fix it no matter how hard you try to manipulate the details of your miserable life (or your miserable economy).

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:05 | 980155 Founders Keeper
Founders Keeper's picture

[Glass-Steagall can be enacted over a weekend.  Just like FDR did...a banking holiday. It wouldn't take long, that's for sure.  It's always been the answer, our country just forgot.]---jmc8888

jmc, I appreciate your desire to bring solutions to the table. IMO, Glass-Steagall was a band-aid on a leg amputation.

Don't get me started on the FDIC and FDR.


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:23 | 980198 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Yes, the "risk" should always remain with those that benefit from taking said risk and or/suffering from their poor decisions.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:36 | 979862 Iam Rich
Iam Rich's picture

At CogDis...a recent Weldon interview on KWN

he comes up with a number of $4 trillion in new and rolling treasury issuance over the next year.  Sounds more like it could get pretty complicated over the next 6 to 12 months.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:41 | 979877 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

Not at all. With the Fed continuing to monetize all gross issuance, which it has no choice but do, considering China has sold over $100 billion in debt in the last two years, there will be no problems whatsoever. (also: for something truly stunning, check net Official (i.e. central banks) transactions in last two months of TIC data - column AG).

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:53 | 979901 Iam Rich
Iam Rich's picture

No problems.  Ouch, just stunning.  Holy cow...45 Big ones in Dec 2010.  I guess they have the firepower and willingness to use it.

So, I should buy silver?  (That's rhetorical).

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 15:35 | 979866 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

All very good. But can a panel like this sit around and discuss an issue and I keep banging on it because no American has responded yet...

if Trafficant said what he said in his speech in 1993 on the floor of the house, on record, one of two things is true:

1) He spoke the truth 

2) He lied


if number 2, and it is huge claims, humungous consequence perjury, he should have been in Jail the next day.

But if 1), if he told the truth, why did the whole facade not crumble at the end of that speech? Why was it not front page news, cause for action.

After all the man said...

"It is an established fact that the United States Federal Government has

been dissolved by the Emergency Banking Act, March 9, 1933, 48 Stat. 1,
Public Law 89-719; declared by President Roosevelt, being bankrupt and
insolvent. H.J.R. 192, 73rd Congress m session June 5, 1933 – Joint
Resolution To Suspend The Gold Standard and Abrogate The Gold Clause
dissolved the Sovereign Authority of the United States and the official
capacities of all United States Governmental Offices, Officers, and
Departments and is further evidence that the United States Federal
Government exists today in name only."

And? Nothing? Not a whimper?

So, did Trafficant lie or tell the truth?

Read his whole speech here if you like:




Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:09 | 979931 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Good Afternoon ORI, 

This is a very uncomfortable concept to consider for anyone. It is true. It is part of the congressional record. If challenged at the Supreme Court level, it would be dismissed based on the length of time it has been accepted.

The only alternative is revolution. Reject over two hundred years of history and development. The United States is a fraud, but then, we have always been a fraud whether you examine human rights, sufferage or finance. 

People want a relatively safe environment to raise a family, have an opportunity to profit and enjoy life. As long as this illusion exists in their minds, they are captives of the greater powers. 

We live in a dream, where the streets are paved with opportunity, the trees full with the fruit our labor and we can always spend more than we produce. It is a kind of heaven, unless you become aware of the hell behind the facade. Until circumstances tearoff the mask on the face of reality, we will march off the cliff, like the lemmings we are.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:41 | 979973 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Sean, thanks for the thoughtful response. I felt that way at the end of my very highly "educative" 12 year stay in the US. 

Most dis-tracted populace I'd ever been amongst (and I've been amongst a few). But the few, like some here...totally awesome. Learned so much.

After the Bush selection, I said, got to leave...stayed till 2006, when Iraq stained gas in my car became un-bearable.


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:57 | 980134 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

+1 to Sean7k and ORI

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:33 | 980079 DiverCity
DiverCity's picture

The US has always been a fraud????  Is all of human history a fraud?  Just because past social conventions don't comport with your contemporary notions of justice or whatever doesn't mean they were fraudulent.  Indeed, they couldn't have been when judged by their own standards.  By contrast, what the banking industry has become, now that's a fraud by any measure extant within the last 1,000 years.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:43 | 980099 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

DC, I've quoted an on-congressional record congressman and asking a question. No point taking pot-shots at my comport-mentalization.

What do you think of the root issue? Do you know who Ben Franklin actually was? Or the founding fathers. Or that you are not party to  the constutition? That you never were a constitutional republic in the sense you have been made to understand? Do you understand the concept of allodial title to property? Maritime law?

Check it all out.

Worth your time if you really care.


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:02 | 980146 DiverCity
DiverCity's picture

My initial comment was directed to Sean.  I think your link is quite interesting and most likely the legal effect is just what Traficant said it was.  But I also agree with Sean that the courts wouldn't find that way, just like they upheld the gross overapplication of the Commerce Clause during the Depression.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:45 | 980103 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

You are familiar with the concept of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" ? Only for white, male landowners? Dred Scott decision? Separate, but equal? Women's sufferage? Fiat Currency and dollar inflation? State enforcement against peaceful union strikes. 

How about the seizure of foreign resources for our own purposes? Or does freedom only exist for Americans? Spanish American War, Nicaragua, Panama, China (boxer rebellion), Vietnam, Iraq, Iran, Chile, Venezuela, etc. 

Is all human history a fraud? Depends on your due diligence...

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:08 | 980136 DiverCity
DiverCity's picture

Like I said, it depends on your perspective.  You are judging the past with the current majority's conception of justice.  That's ridiculous.  At what other point in ALL of human history have women had the vote?  Good God, man, when did most males have that right?  I won't defend any of the things you cite and of which I am well aware, but you've got to try to be a little less self-righteous.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:27 | 980206 Founders Keeper
Founders Keeper's picture

[At what other point in ALL of human history have women had the vote?  Good God, man, when did most males have that right?]---DiverCity 

Good post, DiverCity.

Many people have a perspective on history extending one generation at best.


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 22:26 | 980647 Confuchius
Confuchius's picture

@founders keepers

Just checkin' to be sure you pay royalties to the British East India Company for your avatar...


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:29 | 980211 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

If you are going to describe yourself as a beacon of light in a world of darkness, you have to walk the walk. There is much about America that can be celebrated, but a bastion of liberty, it is not.

"All men are created equal", what does that mean to you? It is a simple sentence and a simple idea. It is either true or it isn't. For the vast majority of people in America, it wasn't. Until 1919. 

Of course, by then we had installed our central bank and it has been downhill ever since- or do you fail to recognize debt slavery?

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 19:43 | 980378 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Well said

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 02:28 | 980944 old naughty
old naughty's picture

2X Well said.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 19:44 | 980382 Cardinal Fang
Cardinal Fang's picture

I'll take cowboy chic over commie chic any day.

hmm, let's see. Social contract theory and...Hell's Angels.

One man's bastion of liberty is another's slave market.

If you don't know your rights, you don't have any...

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 17:29 | 982867 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

If you don't know your rights, you don't have any...

I love the sentiment, but "rights" are commonly thought of as entitlements and such.

The whole idea has been bastardized and distorted.

Mon, 02/21/2011 - 04:51 | 981058 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

You are judging the past with the current majority's conception of justice. 


Nope.There is nothing current. The US is assessed through its own standards, the ones defined from the start.

Your approach is fraudulous. You use others' standards to assess the US. In order to avoid using US standards set from the beginning, you refer to non US standards. Which ironically makes others' standards superior to US as they are the ones who enabled the US into existence.

Nothing about being self-righteous, a simple look at reality is enough. Which depends on only one thing: read the US standards and apply them to the US.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:51 | 980270 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Bullshit.  History is written by those that are victorious by any means.  They survive and justify what they did in their own minds.  The truth dies with the average Joe.  Here is a hint, don't be average.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 20:06 | 980414 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 Goering in custody at Nuremburg; "War crime ! What war crime ! The only crime is losing the war !"   Interviewer; you will be judged by history,  Goering, "History ! History is written by the winners!"

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:17 | 979937 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

I just read the Emergency Banking Act of 1933 and no where in there does it declare the U.S. as bankrupt.  It does give the President $2,000,000 personal discretionary funding and it does give the government the right to confiscate gold and silver.  It also gives the right to the government to halt any exports of bullion.

I do know that a representative or a senator can say just about anything they wish in the House or Senate without fear of prosecution.  So, I would suggest that the best response by his colleagues was to ignore him and hope he would go away.  For the most part they got what they wished for.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:45 | 979982 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Wow, if what you say is true, then I guess we'd have to go farther back to Lindhberg Senior and Junior and Louis Mcfadden? 

This is not the only place this claim has been authoratatively claimed. Did you check against the HJR (House Resolutions) numbers mentioned?

Thanks and I'll dig deeper. But my sense is that given the Fed deception, his whole speech is too big a truth, kind of the opposite of the huge lie and completely un-graspable in it's magnitude.

My own research says Maritime Law is in effect in the US. So is the UCC, birth certificate, indentured servitude with SSN....

My vote says he spoke the truth.



Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:15 | 980032 CH1
CH1's picture

Remember, ORI, that some of the people on "our side" have been a bit twisted. Trafficant is not a pristine guy. He was eagerly soliciting bribes, etc. Some of the early guys were antisemitic pigs, and so on.

Eat the fish, spit out the bones.

Sun, 02/20/2011 - 17:34 | 980085 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Totally agree CH1, Caveat Emptor. But, what his list of men have said on record is pretty remarkable. 

Nixon's signing a presidential order dividing US into 10 Federal districts etc. ranks right up there.

As is the legal definition of the UNITED STATES as a corporation.

it's a twisted tale for sure, but the thread seems clear enough to me.


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 18:37 | 980238 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

Here is the link that I read.  Perhaps I missed something.

I would agree with others that if any such dissolution of the U.S. happened it would have been in 1913.  I am curious though, if the U.S. is still in the state of financial emergency that was declared by Roosevelt in 1933.  I think this is what Trafficant was referring to.


Sun, 02/20/2011 - 16:18 | 979940 velobabe
velobabe's picture

you are a gentle good man, ORI†

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