• Reggie Middleton
    03/19/2010 - 10:03
    As I warned in my Pan-European Sovereign Debt Crisis series and amid a depression, this Eastern European government has collapsed. Western European countries (and their banks) have material claims within this country, and when combined with pressure from the PIIGS, may be the ones that set off the financial/economic contagion daisy chain. It is difficult to determine who sets it off, which is why it is best to attempt to determine the path of the contagion instead...
  • Leo Kolivakis
    03/19/2010 - 07:34
    A recent joint poll by Responsible-Investor.com, the Network for Sustainable Financial Markets and AQ Research, showed more than 90% of investment professionals believe moral hazard has increased. And yet, global pension funds and wealth funds who manage trillions of dollars have not taken the lead to push for financial reforms. Why do they acquiesce, and not push for meaningful post-crisis reforms?
  • Econophile
    03/19/2010 - 00:48
    The fact that Google will not kowtow to Bejing and will walk away from the market of greatest potential is to me a commendable act. This is a companion piece to my series, "China's Fragile Economy, Its Housing Bubble, and What It Means To Us." China is not a liberal country, by far.

Roubini Blasts "The Barbarous Relic," Recommends Spam Over Gold

Tyler Durden's picture




In a headline piece on roubini.com, Nouriel Roubini writes an extended article slamming both gold bugs, and the so-called gold bubble, which he believes is far too volatile, and which, contrary to ever increasing claims to the opposite, will likely not get to the mythical price of $2000/ounce, and instead will head lower. The argument presented, as is widely the case, boils down to the trifecta of i)gold having no industrial utility, ii) no intrinsic value (no associated cash flow streams) and iii) costing an arm and a leg to store. While Roubini's thesis is attractive on the surface (if somewhat Keynesian and thus often reiterated by mainstream Economists), we present some counter arguments to Roubini's thesis.  

Roubini summarizes the current situation:

In the last nine months, concerns about a global depression have dissipated and the global economy is recovering from its worst recession in decade; deflation is still gripping the global economy as the slack in goods and labor markets persists at high levels. So why have gold prices started to rise sharply again in the last few months, in spite of no near-term risk of inflation or of depression? And could gold prices rapidly rise towards $2000?

On the one hand, the Doctor does see the pro-gold argument, which he highlights in five main points:

There are several reasons why gold prices are gradually rising, but they do not suggest a rapid rise toward $2000; at most they suggest a gradual rise with significant risks of downward correction.

  • First, while we are still experiencing global deflation, there are rising concerns that inflation may reemerge forcefully in the medium term because of large monetized fiscal deficits.
  • Second, a massive wall of liquidity—borne of easy monetary policy—is chasing assets. Some of those assets include commodities like oil and base metals—the rise of which could eventually become inflationary.
  • Third, dollar funded carry trades and a more generalized portfolio allocation to non-dollar assets (especially EM assets) are pushing the U.S. dollar sharply down. There is an inverse relation between the value of the dollar and the dollar price of commodities: the lower the dollar the higher the dollar price of oil and other commodities, including gold. The rise of gold in euros has been much more muted.
  • Fourth, the global supply of gold—both existing and newly produced—is limited, and demand is rising faster than supply over the medium term. The recovery of the global economy has started a revival of retail gold demand especially in India. Central banks looking to diversify their portfolios account for further demand—see for instance, the recent increase in gold holdings by emerging market central banks. Most of the increase in demand comes from private investors using gold as a hedge against low probability tail risks of high inflation and another near depression caused by a double dip recession. Inflation risk and the risk of a double-dip are both low, suggesting lower gold prices, but increasingly investors want to hedge against such risks early on. And given the inelastic supply of gold, it only takes a small shift in the portfolios of central banks and private investors to boost increase the price of gold significantly.
  • Finally, as sovereign risk is rising—see Dubai, Greece and other emerging markets and advanced economies—the concern about sovereigns not being able to back stop too-big-to-save financial system could rise again.

On the other, Roubini, sticking to the Socratic method, lays out the counter argument for a quick drop in gold prices:

  • First, the dollar carry trade may at some point unravel, popping the global asset bubble that this carry trade has fueled.
  • Second, central banks will eventually need to exit quantitative easing and effectively zero policy rates, which will put downward pressure on risky assets including commodities.
  • Third, bouts of global risk aversion may occur as the global recovery may turn fragile, anemic and subpar, thus leading to a rise in the U.S. dollar that would drive down prices of commodities and gold in dollar terms.
  • Fourth, since the carry trade and the wall of liquidity are causing a global asset bubble, some of the recent rise of gold is also bubble driven by herding behavior and momentum trading, pushing gold higher and higher. But all bubbles eventually crash and the bigger the bubble the bigger the eventual crash.
  • Fifth, the effect of rising sovereign risk on gold prices is ambiguous, as the events of recent weeks suggest. A risk in such risk could push up the price of gold if it leads to expectations that central banks will eventually monetize those fiscal problems. But in practice it has weighed on the price of gold because it has increased investors’ risk aversion and led to a rush into a different (and more liquid) asset than gold—e.g. the U.S. dollar—thus pushing gold prices down. In general, gold always competes with fiat currencies and anything that is dollar bullish—like repeated bouts of global risk aversion—tends to be gold bearish.

At the heart of Roubini's argument is a principle that is self-evident when one looks at the price dynamics of various asset classes today: that inflation is still in check. Of course the threshold between reserve accumulation by FR banks (which is now at ~$1.2 trillion) and all that excess money spilling over is all the stands between an environment of muted "disinflation" and runaway, spiraling and uncontrollable hyperinflation. And should the Fed lose control over a runaway monetary train, Gold at $2000 will be a distant memory. But more on that in a second. First, Roubini on why gold bugs' expectations will soon be dashed:

Thus, the gold bugs are wrong—or at least very, very premature—in justifying buying gold as an attack on fiat currency. The velocity of money is still low or falling—the opposite of a currency crisis or run on the dollar. As a further indication of the collapse of credit/money multipliers, indicators of expected inflation are subdued or falling, despite governments printing money (excess reserves). The high inflation scenario may be constrained even if/when easy money gains too much traction, as the yield curve would steepen sharply, raising the discount rate for risky private sector debt and for corporate equity, limiting the speed of the recovery and hence the ability of states to impose inflation surprises in the context of shortening average debt maturities.

Finally, let’s assume the global economy double dips and concerns about near depression and sharp deflation reemerge. Should investors hold gold in that world? In a true world of near depression, gold bars are pretty much useless. Keynes referred to gold as a “barbarous relic.” Unlike other commodities, it has little intrinsic value. Much like a fiat currency, gold’s value is based largely on the irrational beliefs of investors. In a depression or near depression, one would be better off stockpiling canned food and other commodities like oil that are useful for riding out Armageddon. You cannot eat gold or burn gold.

Roubini concludes:

Investors should thus be wary of getting the gold bug and being stuck with this barbarous relic. The recent swings in gold price—up 10 percent one month, down 10 percent the next—prove  the point that gold has little intrinsic value and that most of its price movements are based on beliefs and bubbles. As an insurance policy against the tail risk of eventual inflation, it may be useful to hold a small amount of gold in one’s portfolio, but stocking up portfolios with a fiat currency that has marginal practical use, a zero nominal interest rate, high storage costs, and the price of which is subject to volatile whims and bubbles is totally irrational. If you want to hedge against inflation, stock up on Spam or other canned food or buy futures on commodities that have more physical uses and consumer demand.

We disagree with the professor across a few key points. As Dr. Roubini himself will acknowledge, the primary reason for the rapid "improvement" in asset valuations, and the postponement of the double dip/next leg of the depression, is solely due to global central banks having themselves onboarded private sector asset exposure as the very last option to prevent an all out collapse of the financial system: individual sovereigns' taxpayers are now the owners of what used to be Merrill's toxic CRE loan bonanza. Whereas a year ago the collapse of Goldman would have been possible without it also involving an at least technical default by the US, we are now beyond such capitalist flights of fancy, courtesy of the Bernanke Put (let alone the discussion of what the MTM mismatch of the central bank balance sheet is - courtesy of increasingly more lax accounting standards, the spread between fair value and book value, as we have reported, keeps increasing and could potentially be a 20%+ delta). These assets need to produce cash flow, which they do not, or at least not to a point where the Fed's balance sheet is self-sustainable. Which explains the massive money printing, via QE, although as pointed out the actual cash does not hit circulating money, but merely ends up at the banks, earning 0.25% (why not: on $1.2 trillion it amounts to $3 billion a year in absolutely risk-free taxpayer subsidies). The main reason, as Zero Hedge will shortly show, why the dollar keeps getting pillaged versus its main counterpart, the euro, is that while the Eurozone balance sheet has stayed flat, courtesy of a mortgage bubble that never hit the ludicrous size of its US counterpart, the US Federal Reserve "assets" keep rising, and at a rate which is the inverse of incremental dollar devaluation.

In essence the only reason why gold has appreciated less in terms of Euros is thanks to US generosity to assimilate European toxic asset losses, via an osmotic, and nearly 1-to-1 increase in equity markets between America and Europe. In this way, even as the euro continues not devaluing, the implicit Eurozone inflation is still nonetheless occurring, courtesy of increasing equity values, which happen purely on a sympathetic reflex to what the S&P is doing in New York. Another interesting observation are the comparable rates of expansion of the balance sheets of China and US - once again China is taking advantage of not only the dollar peg, but of it having even less a vocal political system to keep the printer in check (i.e., the absence of its own version of Ron Paul allows it print its way to "9% GDP prosperity" every year). At the end of the day, the Fed can only carry the burden of importing global inflation so long before the need to tighten is the opportunity cost of the Fed Chairman's job (and the ruling party's continued majority in the House and the Senate). And this is precisely the day that gold bugs live for.

Mr. Roubini is wrong on one key argument: gold bug mania is not so much driven by the dream of fiat currency destruction (we all know the race to the bottom is on everywhere except in Europe which as discussed above has it own unique set of circumstances), but by the volatility in the actual reversal from expansion to contraction monetary phases. The Fed is in uncharted monetary policy territory, and way out of its comfort zone. If history is any indication, Greenspan, who was unable to control the runaway train of monetary glutting in the early 2000s, is a perfect case study of what will happen - why would Bernanke, who is Alan "Moral Hazard" Greenspan reincarnated, get it right? Especially, having demonstrated over the past month a complete lack of comprehension of asset bubble existence. And that particular bet explains why all the smartest money is currently accumulating it. Many pundits have said that the one who times the switch to inflationary policy by the Fed will be the richest man in 2010 (or 2012 if Goldman is right). Yet gold is a negative carry-free way to make just such a wager with the broadest possible time horizon: gold's lack of positive carry offsets precisely the theta bleed which one would incur if one was merely rolling S&P puts constantly waiting for the Nassim Taleb moment of six sigma plus singularity. Also, once purchased, there is no need to roll the gold contracts, especially in physical form. At the end of the day, if the monetary skeptics are right, and they most likely are, the Fed will not only be unable to rein in inflation but we will go straight to hyperinflation and not pass go. At that moment the price of gold will hit escape velocity. And as in hyperinflation traditional supply/demand mechanics collapse, especially for such industrial metals as copper, aluminum, and, yes, even silver, gold's lack of intrinsic value will be the main thing in its favor. Furthermore, with gold prices representing a nearly 80% discount on the global monetary base in simple value terms, in a scramble to a makeshift gold standard, the next resistance level will be not $2000, but $6000/oz.

Yet in all honesty, we do agree with Roubini, that at that point in the future, when all non-gold commodities are flatlining, spam will likely be just as valuable as gold. Unfortunately, lead will be in a league of its own. If that is the price to pay for the terminal proof of flawed-from-the-start Keynesian economics, and the failure of the Federal Reserve as the bastion of Wall Street's "second estate" interests, and the subsequent demise of both, it may just end up being worth it.

4.533335
Your rating: None Average: 4.5 (15 votes)



by Sqworl
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 11:30
#161173

Buy Gold...Nou Nou will be buying lots of gold trinkets this Holiday for his "Ladies"....;)  He alone will spike the price!

by DoChenRollingBearing
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:20
#161431

I agree, Nouriel looks to be wrong on this one.  Maybe he has never held a kilo bar of gold...?  LOL re trinkets for his ladies.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 18:13
#161530

"You can no eat or burn gold." Really genius? A good way to know that a person doesn't know what is the purpose of gold is when they spout this nonsensical line.
Gold doesn't compete with food or oil, it competes with fiat money. You can't eat paper dollars either, and if it comes down to burning the paper dollars then you'll be wanting to own gold anyway.

by Anonymous
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 00:06
#161716

Actually, I've digested paper.

by CombustibleAssets
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 03:31
#161809

You can't eat or burn iphones either but that does stop people from trading them on ebay.

It's all about relative value.

by WaterWings
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 18:22
#162468

by Anonymous
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 19:33
#163958

I love when people say gold has no industrial value. Gold is the best conductor of the metals. Really high end cables have gold plating on the tips. The reason for golds lack of use in industry is the value placed on it as a monetary metal is much higher than the industrial value

by Anonymous
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 22:05
#164108

Gold is NOT the best conductor. Silver is far better. Gold is chosen for its corrosion resistance.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/28651.html

by bugs_
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 11:32
#161176

End of Keynesianism.  Priceless.

by truont
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:02
#161305

Roubini: "C'mon, guys! Keynesianism works! Really! Pay no attention to India's CB buying gold bullion!  Those Indians will for sure dump their gold soon, once they realize the terrible mistake they've made!  Keynesianism works!  In the long run, we'll all be dead anyway!"

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:13
#161368

How much money is Roubini managing again? Right. When some of the best traders in the world ala John Paulson, Tudor Jones et. al. are buying Gold and putting their money where their mouth is, why should I listen to a total LOSER like Roubini?

BTW, somehow those bashing Gold almost always happen to be total losers managing/making ZERO amount of money and are big on lecturing/producing hot air (Bob Prechter anyone?). Hmmm...I wonder why...

by Anonymous
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 07:01
#161840

Paulson also buys a ton of BAC, so we also buy BAC? Poor argument pal.

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 18:21
#162465

If someone bought it at the right time, not a bad deal at all.

by Anonymous
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 11:20
#161942

Another irresponsible professor.

by Oracle of Kypseli
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:06
#161415

Yes. but your offsprings will be living in a different world

by cocoablini
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 11:43
#161182

Why do these economists insist that something popular isn't popular? It's like telling teenagers not to have sex...

Also in a credit contraction with declining money supply GOLD is just as liquid as the dollar. You can swap it, it's fungible and universally accepted. Industrially, it's used in computers. 

 

What a rant...

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:11
#161207

"Also in a credit contraction with declining money supply GOLD is just as liquid as the dollar. You can swap it, it's fungible and universally accepted. Industrially, it's used in computers."

Please cite your source.

by hack3434
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:19
#161329

eBay.com

by Careless Whisper
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:21
#161378

@ cocoa  Roudini is lookin for headlines. He's become irrelevant. Max Keiser intervieved William Black. Very insightful.

http://maxkeiser.com/2009/12/11/ote31-on-the-edge-with-max-keiser-and-william-k-black/

 

by Kitler
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 18:49
#161547

At an often substantial premium to market at that

by MarketTruth
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:11
#161370

Anon,

  Gold is EXTREMELY easy to exchange in localized currencies in many places around the world. Sadly, Americans do not realize this yet Europeans and Asians are well aware of this fact. Gold in indeed used in industry as connector coatings and other mission critical wiring and covering/plating. Gold is also an excellent heat reflector and used by NASA, top professional race teams, etc..

by msjimmied
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:09
#161420

For what it's worth, when India had restrictions on foreign currency exchanges, you were allowed some piddling sum like maybe $200 converted before you left the country. People used the other network of international money lenders, or they wore 24k gold jewelery. When you reach your destination, you check into an indian jeweler who would charge you $10 dollars over spot price for any transaction. Buy or sell. You can find them in most major cities. They generally won't mess with you. They know you know what you have. They don't play the Cash for Gold stuff. They don't buy 14k.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:34
#162992

No it's not:

This guy's approach sucks, but it's hard to refute that these rich ***** have little idea of what is going on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYcXTOto-LM

- and further proof that this falls on deaf ears:

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

 

 

"Hey, I'm practically giving away Maple Leafs, too bad you ***** don't know how to evaluate a counterfeit!"

Gold is not liquid because our government does not follow it's own constitution anymore - and the citizens are hyper-specialized, hyper-clueless, overweight, and indebted. A gold-backed paper currency, not fiat!, is the only solution (as a compliment to a standard (weight and purity) coin) - because the paper itself is liquid, portable, and immediately redeemable for the real thing.

 

But, wait, to be fair, I have to agree that if you are willing to take a loss you can trade gold very easily. Just go to Detroit - a fi dolla ho will love you long time.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 20:30
#164024

Okay, wait. In foreign locales I cannot provide experience. So, I may be off my base.

by cocoablini
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 19:23
#161572

Source? Just look around you. CB's are swapping gold-there's a gold ETF-there's a mutual fund in Switzerland that converts to physical gold. EBAY,coin shops, Craig's list...

by delacroix
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 20:29
#161601

and the mint keeps running out

by WaterWings
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:31
#162993

...out of tungsten.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:54
#161244

I'm no paper apologist, but to claim that Au is as liquid as the dollar is a bit misguided. I dare you to go to the gas station and try to pay for a gallon of gas with a krugerrand, or to the grocery story and buy a loaf of bread with a gold American Eagle. Ain't happening. Gold will only be as liquid as the dollar as soon as its legal oppressor - legal tender laws - are compromised. Absent the abdication of legal constructs, the dollar is exponentially more liquid than gold.

Yes, absent legal tender laws gold is certainly as liquid as fiat trash. But given that deflationary episodes tend not to cause civil unrest and legal dislocation to the extent runaway inflationary episodes do, the claim that gold is as liquid as the dollar doesn't really hold up.

by Internet Tough Guy
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:35
#161339

You forgot to say that you can't eat gold. Seriously, how hard is it to sell gold for money, then buy what you want with money?

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:56
#161352

Or you could, you know, hold money to begin with and forego jumping through hoops B and C (particularly if you're paying >0.00001% above spot, which would leave you with less than what you began with). Perhaps you can put me in touch with these merchants who are accepting Krugerrands for their wares?

Look, I hold a significant amount of metals and am as bearish as the next ZHer about the dollar and ultimate solvency of this country. But to say that, TODAY, gold is as liquid as FRNs is simply incorrect. Do you really dispute that?

by delacroix
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 20:32
#161603

 

I will sell you a generator, or a quad, or a motorcycle, or land for GOLD

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:01
#161358

Exchange it or what money? You goldbugs are seriously retarded.

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:05
#161363

He also forgot to say that he can't wipe his ass with it, which, BTW, he can with the dollar. Hence the dollar is more valuable...er..."liquid".

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:59
#161408

How did you two manage to turn my response into being anti-gold? I hold plenty of it (and other metals and commodities).

Few can see the writing on the wall - let alone read what said writing is actually saying. I consider myself lucky that I'm among those who can. This country's - nay, world's - finances are rotten, and it's clear that something's got to give. But the when and the where, not to mention the nature of the ensuing fallout, are all completely unknowable. As a hedge against such extreme uncertainty, only fools talk themselves out of holding things which will be liquid in the aftermath of TSHittingTF. The key in such a scenario isn't JUST gold; it's liquidity and flexibility.

But in the IMMEDIATE aftermath of such an event, and until every J6P comprehends the utter worthlessness of fiat junk, some of our less-knowledgeable peers will for a time still attempt to transact in FRNs. It is for those transactions, and those fools, that I'm reserving a small collection of FRNs. Like it or not, FRNs are for today and the immediate short-term the most liquid monetary instrument.

by delacroix
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 20:36
#161608

liquor is a pretty liquid asset maybe we should stockpile rum, and spam, and cigarettes, and condoms, along with our PM's.

by Anonymous
on Tue, 12/15/2009 - 15:30
#164926

You think you're being funny, but actually you're right.

by DoChenRollingBearing
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:29
#161441

+1

by rubberduckie
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:05
#161364

Uh, actually, the grocery store and the gas station are required by law to give you face value, $50, for your one ounce American Eagle coin.  It's US legal tender, "legal for all debts, public and private."

by Oracle of Kypseli
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:24
#161434

In a depression or hyperinflationary situation, those who want to unload land and real estate will only accept precious metals. The Kennedy's made huge basement RE deals for silver in the 30's.

There are also legal or underground places which exchange PM's for cash as you need.

Again 25% of your total assets in gold and silver will protect you from such case. If nothing happens, your dollar assets will make up the other way even if gold goes to $350.

Just a hedge. I just don't see that anyone should argue one way or another. This is a settled argument since the Babylon days.   

by Carpenterman
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 11:50
#161187

Keep in mind that Roubini has become the banker's pet contrarian.

 

I don't know what to think of this guy anymore. I think he is a tool.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:49
#161291

Please keep your stored labour in our highly dilutional-and-expected-to-blow-up fiat currency so that we can offload all the deals gone bad on your ignoramus holders and enrich our mistake-prone and greedy friends.

Gold is not the ultimate money. It's supply is not dictated by the scarcity of natural limits and hence undoes and prevents our monetary mischief.

Yes please continue using our monopoly of printed pledges against your neighbor's future labour. Also disregard the fact that we have shown neither good government, budgetary fiscal discipline, nor spending restraint.

Please buy our bonds, machine traded round-trip transacted and over-the-top bubbly equities, or real estate whose present glut was over-incentivized by widespread, unregulated fraud and whose price must still fall at least 40%.

In other words, dump good money after bad chasing a return that is systemically no longer there; or, if you choose to hoard, hoard in OUR cash.

All the better to eat you with.

Roubini the Houdini. There is no economic law which I cannot escape from.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:18
#161324

"Tool" being the operative word. Read Ted Butlers' commentaries on naked shorting of gold and silver by Goldman and JPM. He obviously chooses to ignore a fact that is based on Commitment of Trders report and physical supply, and to the benefit of those that would be at a loss to cover on $2000 gold. With a fiat dollar perhaps their only concern are costs based on ink to gold ratio. The ratio is well in their favor considering the value of the entire US gold reserve (8000 tons)is around $300 bil, and just in backing the 1.8 bil rise in debt ceiling would be a 6 fold increase. If the dollar was based on gold relative to the national debt the price would be around $40,000 - so if inflation ticks up a point which is cheaper; paying the extra .1% interest on $12 Tril or shorting a few hundred bil in the gold futures market.
When the disparity between physical gold and the paper market finally unravels, Goldman is betting on 2012, it would be well advised to have a seat when the music stops.
Contrary to Roubinis claim, gold has value as a currency - maybe he should read the Constitution, it may be hanging by a thread, but it will still be around long after the New World Order is past tense. Its too bad that The Powers That Be are intent on covering the truth with lies and testing the resolve of the populace, because if one understands the simple truth in an issue, they are not likely to be dissueded regardless of degree, credential or religious facade.
- Good Article, Thanks.

by Oracle of Kypseli
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:48
#161455

Gold's value is constant.
It's just that the fiat currencies are in constant limbo of liquidity and/or trustworthiness.

In rough calculations, a 1923 Lincoln was sold for $520 or 18 Oz, of gold. Today, a similar car should cost you the same. But the similar car is priced at 35K or more, therefore gold should be at $1800-$2200 an oz.

You can make the same comparison with shoes, food or whatever other need.

by Master Bates
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 20:44
#161616

Just more hopium.

Look at the value of a car in 1932, versus what you get on your car today.

There is much more value in a car from 2009.  That doesn't mean that gold is worth more, but the car is.

by MsCreant
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 00:29
#161739

by Oracle of Kypseli
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 02:19
#161789

Cars are indeed better today and the government uses your argument (called hedonics) to supress the inflation number.

Same with the steaks. If the price of the filet mignon goes up, the goverment substitutes with skirt steak to hide the uptick.

Most economists though disagree with that theory.

   

by Hephasteus
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 05:33
#161831

1 lb of coffee, 14 ounces of coffee, 13 ounces of coffee. Labled 13 ounces but only 12 ounces in it.

It's all about hiding inflation.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:07
#161417

that's right. he is. he is of turkish or iranian jewish extraction, teaching, and working and living in new york. what else needs to be said. he is working for the other side. besides if he doesn't play the right notes, and considering what a tiger woods kind of playa he obviously thinks he is, it would be no problem for his supply of shiksas to shall we say dry up real fast, if he doesn't do what is wanted by his puppeteers.....

by MsCreant
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 00:33
#161742

I don't defend Roubini's perspective, but your silly racism detracts from this conversation.

Shake yourself out of it. Race doesn't matter here.

by desk-jockey
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 07:31
#161844

+100
ms. c, i like the cut of your jib, lady! (both for this and your many quality comments here on ZH).

by Sqworl
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 09:53
#161879

+100 I concur, Ms. C is one of my favorites on ZH along with Marla.

Nou Nou should be discussed based upon merits and not race!

While were here posting, he is St. Barts with his harem enjoying the fruits of his labour!

by MsCreant
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:14
#162981

This is a great compliment coming from Sqworl.

Marla is deadly awesome and a sight to behold in action. Graceful predator. I have learned a great deal from "her."

I'll just go sit and grin for a while!

:-)

by WaterWings
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:35
#162995

+1

by MsCreant
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:23
#162989

I made a stupid race over generalization about Arabs on a thread a while back which I regret, so take some points off the +100. However, it is one thing to be an ignorant dunderhead and another to be stewing in hatred without questioning the logic underneath it. That one takes pleasure in hurting. To be honest, I don't get this kind of thing. Your parents or friends taught it to you and rewarded you when you replicated it? You had a bad experience with one person (or three?) and over generalized it? Or maybe you lived in a neighborhood where everyone explained things this way? There is a reason for it though. But that does not mean it should not be challenged.

Thanks.

by delacroix
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 20:38
#161609

academic capture.   can't see that the dollar IS a risk asset

by Anonymous
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 22:28
#162749

Amen He conveniently visited the IMF prior to the stock market crash and bailout.

by Silver Bullet
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 11:51
#161189

Roubini is both right and wrong.

I have always wondered,also, why people just blindly give a certain value to gold like many do to the $.

Minus perception, gold is basically worthless.

And thats where Roubini is wrong. People perceive gold to be quite valuable, and perception is really the only thing that matters.

If people perceive our economy to be doing well, it does well, even during obvious bubbles. However, as soon as people preceive the economy to be doing poorly, it crumbles.

Now if these inflation hawks, and the like wanted the $ pegged to a commodity of actual value, say oil, I think they would have a much more credible case.

by LoneStarHog
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:02
#161199

Oil or any other expendable and finite commodity would be a ridiculous peg. The reason why gold has been used for thousands of years is because it is rare and does not get destroyed through consumption. All of the gold ever mined is still in existence.

by Ripped Chunk
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:23
#161267

"All of the gold ever mined is still in existence"

 

Interesting thought. Even if a fraction was combined irreversibly with another element into a compound for some use, most gold is mined just for use as gold.

The gold argument will go on forever.

  

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:10
#161313

People are not the fools their gov't believes them.

They see all the presumptions upon their future tax payments by voracious but impaired financial institutions which must be made whole. They see the mountain of income streams required to service interest payments which can never be met. They see rapidly expanding gov't services, gov't salaries, gov't pensions & healthcare and the money printing which supplements the borrowing which dwarfs the real possible gov't income from the physical economy.

They see an overleveraged private, corporate, public sector which cannot pay down principal and seem hellbent on borrowing until the creditor is out of funds. They see a debauched dollar as a furtive means of stripping their purchasing power and looting any savings.

In short, they see a bankrupt gov't that forced them into an unequal partnership. And wisely, they are unloading all financial instruments with claim on that entity's value before the collapse leaves them with nothing.

Therefore they choose Gold. Not because it is not without volatility or manipulation or problems, but because it is the best choice between two imperfect widely accepted commodities: paper money and Gold.

by delacroix
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 20:43
#161612

95% of the silver ever mined, has been consumed.  silver is the ticket, and much easier to exchange, in lower denominations.  don't go out and buy a bunch, yet.  let me get some more, before you help to drive the price, closer to gold.

by Anton LaVey
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:44
#161286

Re: perceptions and the real value of Gold.

I agree with you that the "real" value of gold is more a matter of perception than anything else. But then, so is everything else. As an example of this, ask yourself the question: if it rained hamburgers, what would be the effect on the price of food?

However: Gold is rare, it has certain interesting physical properties (oxidation, ductility, and so on) and it makes nice bling, as it is very beautiful to look at. The combination of these three characteristics make it a very valuable metal, indeed. It's not just a matter of perception. Scarcity, of anything, confers value.

Remember that economy is supposed to be the science of managing scarcity. Gold is probably one of the ultimate scarce resource. Hence, its value, even if the valuation of gold can be somewhat problematic in a fiat currency system.

by rubberduckie
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:12
#161371

What effect would Raining Hamburgers have on vegetarians?

The whole debate boils down to answering the question, inflation or deflation?  No one's crystal ball appears yet to give the answer.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:32
#161444

WEIMAR REPUBLIC STYLE "SUPER INFLATION".IT IS NOT IF, ONLY WHEN. THE FRN IS HEADING FOR A UTTER AND COMPLETE COLLAPSE. WHAT YOU HAVE WITNESSED IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS IS MERELY A DRESS REHEARSAL, FOR THE COMING FINANCIAL CALAMITY.
HOPE FOR THE BEST, PREPARE FOR THE WORST.

by Anton LaVey
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 14:31
#162184

Hi Rubberduckie.

As far as I am concerned, we already are in a world-wide deflation, one that has been cleverly hidden by manipulating the numbers in most countries.

When the trillions and trillions of fiat currencies printed to "save" the economy finally reach the market, then, and only then, will we have inflation. Remember that inflation is based on the amount of money available in an economy at a given time. Price rising are a consequence of inflation.

In other words, gold is cheap today because of deflation, and it is going to go ballistic as soon as inflation (or hyperinflation, Zimbabwe-style) starts. Keep in mind that inflation, or, even worse, total economic meltdown, is (as far as I am concerned) pretty much a certainty.

One last possibility is stagflation: general stagnation in the economy, combined with high (or very high) inflation. See economy, USA, 1970s. But that's more or less inflation that's going to be the decisive factor anyway.

And one effect of raining hamburgers on vegetarians would be to lower the price of food across the board... Except maybe for poor vegetarians. There are always two sides to the same coin, and your vegetarian example is a great counter-example to my raining hamburgers example. Well done.

by Burnbright
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:48
#161290

Minus perception, gold is basically worthless.

Uh??? Gold has intrinsic value because it is INDESTRUCTABLE, comprende?

by merehuman
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:18
#161326

Now theres a question. Indestructible? Canadian bank lost millions oz of gold.

After belatedly calling the mounties, they reported erroneous double counting as one culprit. Funny for a bank to not COUNT properly!!?? lol

And they stated some gold was lost to melting procedures in the making of coins. I did the math , and it turns out theres an excellent chance it was the 400 oz bars that melted and left a profound amount of tungsten in its wake!

Gold does not disappear during melt. I bet if you ask, most in the business will with pride declare a positive return. After all it cannot dissappear unlike burned paper. Perception alone is not what gives it value.

History , difficulty of finding and obtaining and scarcity give it value.

Where else would we park our profits? Land would be a good alternative were it not in decline. Nor is land free of counter parties, taxes , keep up and the possibility of eminant domain being used agains it.

Silver is even scarcer if reports are correct. In my small city thousands of ounces were bought in the last few weeks and supply  is dwindling as fast as bullets. The home town silver rallies have inspired shotgun sales as well.

Long on personal home security. Long silver, hi ho

 

 

 

 

 

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:28
#161440

Ummm...no. He's just wrong.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:37
#162996

Marla, is that you?

by Andy Dufresne
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 11:58
#161193

LMAO, looking forward to GG's comments. I am bearish here but methinks $3,000-4,000 in a 3-4 years... (if not sooner)... I think the B-man will fall into a deflationary hole which try to get out of with the helicopter trick (ain't seen nothing yet)...

by AnonymousMonetarist
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:28
#161337

The timing's the thing....

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:50
#161436

Repost from above (in case you missed it - lol):


How much money is Roubini managing again? Right. When some of the best traders in the world ala John Paulson, Tudor Jones et. al. are buying Gold and putting their money where their mouth is, why should I listen to a total LOSER like Roubini?

 

BTW, somehow those bashing Gold almost always happen to be total losers managing/making ZERO amount of money and are big on lecturing/producing hot air (Bob Prechter anyone?). Hmmm...I wonder why...


BTW, Roubini's post is so full of idiocy that I won't even bother with a rebuttal.

 

by Andy Dufresne
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 17:33
#161495

true dat

by Anonymous
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 00:21
#161730

No response Gordo? Why? Because you bought at $1225 / oz and have no credibility?

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 01:37
#161772

I didn't but if I did (and I will the next time it hits $1225) it wouldn't have been too bad of a decision because eventually it's going way above that.

by nicholsong
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 02:11
#161787

Agreed.

I watched that recent jump, saw it for what it was, waited until a couple days ago. And as someone who started buying at about $300, I'm not too psyched about pay >$1k, but I don't have a doubt that it's going higher.  Someday.

Honestly, I buy to hold, perhaps forever. I'd much rather pass on precious metals to my descendants than a deteriorating consumable like a house anyway, so I'm not too worried about price.

I just get a little personal kick out of recognizing dips and when to hold.

by Hephasteus
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:00
#161194

Yup it's a barbarous relic. It's going to rip your head off and shit all over your fake math and the fortunate will become unfortunate. But don't worry. You'll all have super computers that you can play super fiat pong against each other. Hope you get the high score!!!!

by LoneStarHog
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:02
#161195

Deleted

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:01
#161196

WTF does Roubini know? Where does he invest his client's money? He is an academic.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:02
#161197

Keep your eye on the supply chain collapse. It's already heavily undermined shipping, and is progressing in agriculture. In the race to the bottom--which you mention--demand gets there first, supply chain gets there second, currency gets there third, inflation gets there fourth, revolution gets there fifth.

by Fazzie
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:02
#161198

 TD, paragraphs make long winded thoughts easier to read.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:57
#161299

+1

by truont
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:06
#161307

Ugh--Yeah!  Can you also include some pop-ups and pretty colors, TD?  I just love pretty colors.

by cocoablini
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:06
#161200

"At the end of the day, if the monetary skeptics are right, and they most likely are, the Fed will not only be unable to rein in inflation but we will go straight to hyperinflation and not pass go. At that moment the price of gold will hit escape velocity"

 

in 2007 and 2008 we had a bout of hyperinflation already. 150 dollar barrel of oil? $5 gas? $5 cappucinos? 550,000 dollars average home in California?

A credit run up=inflationary as there is more fake money sloshing around. People get into debt and kaploww! DEFAULT. Hyperinflation leads to credit expansion which leads to depressionary deflation as defaults rise and "credit" is wiped off the face of the earth.

We have a decrease in money supply, not an increase. The government can't print money, it has to create credit in the form of bonds which is monetized by the FED. Even with their bullshit, they can't make up for the 100 trillion lost in credit and asset value.

Meanwhile, gold can't implode or explode in REAL VALUE. HAving gold go to 100,000 an ounce is a gold bug's wet dream but that's only against a fiat obligation. Look at Japan-they have zero prayer of meeting their obligations but the YEN is strong. Why is that? They will never, ever pay off those debts.

by SDRII
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:20
#161217

Because all have waltzed up to the cliff of confidence and now the ground is fracturing beneath them. The export cooperation capital repatriation game is stillborn and the next western inspired enlightment on the climate is being rubuked in the east for what it is: (1) a paradigm to manage growth coupled with a high margin traidng business for the western banks. And one wonders why the Chinese and Indianslook askance.  

by rubberduckie
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:25
#161381

Suppose we use Jim Grant's definition of inflation as too much money and deflation as too much debt.

It looks like we have more debt than money in the US at the moment, and CRE and state governments are bringing us even more debt.

For the time being, deflation is winning.  But what happens next year and the year after that?

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 19:14
#161566

Amen!

If the money printing were truly inflating right now then gold should be at inflation adjusted highs ~2300. This move has been a head fake like the rest of market trading with the expectation of inflation. I look at the same as you oil housing and even food prices are coming down. Washington makes speeches about getting banks to lend but there is NO VELOCITY. The new cash is not competing for assets... yet.

If all that money were in the system competing for assets then earnings would be stronger, commodities would be at new highs. Indeed, when velocity kicks in you will see this sick amount of money being spent. Until then the banks are only papering-over the insane losses. Cash is still king and it will become painfully obvious with sovereign defaults and unwinding the dollar-carry trade. I expect more deflation in 2010.

by Anonymous
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 00:23
#161732

+1000000000000000

by nicholsong
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 02:19
#161790

Agreed. Look at MULT. All their reflationism, all the QE, all of it didn't even get MULT above 1 again. It's all sitting where we know it is (look at RSBKCRNS).  Commercial Real Estate still has most of the way to fall. Homeowners have only lost 1$ of the 3$ they can expect to lose. Demand destruction? More like demand DESTROYED.  Shipping by boat? By train? By truck? Flat.

Oh, and FAS 140 amendments go into effect in 2010. Banks are looking to have to take on all that off-balance shit. Look at the bond market the last week. They're scrambling to store their cash, all in the short end and they are willing to take a loss to do so.

When it does kick in, the inflation will be glorious to behold. But it is not now, nor is it soon.  I see mass deflation. This is the time to stomp your debt flat, and I am doing so. Believe me, when it's time for the inflation to kick in--when we reach that point of inflection--I'm reversing in all ways.

Luckily, PMs are hedges against both outcomes.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:02
#162971

Why do you think the DJIA is > 10,000? Real investors?

... yet.

'Mericans think some of these guys are boring and out-of-touch with modern times, but I posit that their brilliance was achieved in the understanding and protection of their estates from the scheming nature of their fellow man - TJ is ******* timeless:

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
Thomas Jefferson, (Attributed)
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

Homeless? TJ knew that word? History is cool, man. They sound just like us!

And you're way off when talking about gold in relation to current inflation. Question of the day: 'What is inflation?'

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:08
#161201

It is a mistake to try to use logic as a tool in an illogical situation.

by MsCreant
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:30
#162991

You will never read this but I had to stop to say I think your statement is the key to the whole thing. If we could break out of our need to make sense out of this we would be well ahead of the game.

by drbill
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:11
#161202

Gotta love the "paper bugs"...

 

Personally, I'd like to see gold drop more so I can trade more of my inevitably worthless paper for some more of that "barbarous relic".

by Anton LaVey
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:23
#161269

Amen, brother.

by DoChenRollingBearing
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:35
#161446

+1

Please, please go down another $100, I will be ready with the truck!  Bash it down another, I'll do it again!

by nicholsong
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 02:31
#161795

I think for what we are seeing out there (and while I certainly plan for long term gold rise) I think gold is looking ripe to drop right after EOY09, but perhaps not for long.  I'm not saying we'll see 700 or anything (don't I hope) but I think if we end the year right at or right around 1200, it will drop soon after.

I'm holding out on any more gold right now until I see how that one works for me. 

Til then, I'm all about silver.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:09
#161203

The reason for the rise in gold is not fear of inflation or deflation, but rather there not being a currency deemed "safe". I was long gold via GLD until gold was roughly $1,000/oz. Too many people are talking about it, especially you people. The ultimate store of value argument is flawed. There is ultimately not a fundamental way to analyze gold - much like housing was, the price of gold advancing is dependent upon someone buying from you at a higher price. People seem to arrive at the desired conclusion and then make the assumptions to reach them. Gold will ultimately be worth more than it is presently, but it is going to unravel before getting there.

by SDRII
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:13
#161209

The dollar is a one hit wonder compared to the "perceived" value of gold that has endured 1000 years & why central banks still anchor their balance sheets with it. Hatchet job fail; epic. Where is the hit piece on copper - inventories rising 30 straight days; price a 2.8x cost of production and near term supply constrained against gold at 2.1x marginal cost and long term supply contrained?

Anti gold: Roubini = summers = Geithner = Rubin

Gold: 10 yr CAGR returns 20% vs. S&P? = Einhorn = Paulson

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:15
#161319

If I am to be inevitably ruined, which seems the only course for the future, I would rather be ruined with gold coin than with paper money.

At least then in 1000 or more years, I can leave a tangible legacy of mankind's folly in this 20th Century.

If nothing else I can at least mash them into a ball for use in a lethal sling or load a modern musket.

by delacroix
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 20:53
#161619

I'd choose einhorn over roubini any day  inflation= higher gold price  deflation= credit default= higher gold price, and I didn't even take 1 economics class.

by Grand Supercycle
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:13
#161210

 

Gold has had a parabolic move up and is now extremely overbought.

It's chart now has some bearish patterns

AND the DXY rally I forecast has begun.

http://www.zerohedge.com/forum/market-outlook-0

 

 

by LoneStarHog
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:20
#161216

It is NOT "extremely overbought", as the RSI is way down to 43.9 and much of the "extremely overbought" is old data.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:38
#161233

I pretty consistently do the polar opposite of what Grand Supercycle suggests in these comment threads and am making a pretty good profit, overall. Just sayin'.

by hack3434
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:26
#161335

Ignore the village idiot...

by Anton LaVey
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:23
#161268

OK, "GrandSuperCycle" so you have a US$/DXY rally. Big deal.

The problem with keeping your nose firmly in the day-to-day charts is that you lose your perspective on the big picture, the long-term prospects.

And while the DXY may rally today (and tomorrow, and the week after that), the truth is, the long-term picture is simply, overwhelmingly against the US$, or any other fiat currency for that matter. Re-read what our Dear Grand Leader, Mr Tyler Durden himself wrote above.

That's why I bought gold. That's why I'll keep on buying gold as soon as it gets below US$1,000/oz. Because I am focused on the long term.

by Rusty_Shackleford
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:46
#161289

Hey, don't pick on Grand Supercycle.

I've been waiting for his dollar rally to come for the whole past 6 months he's been calling for it.

This may end up being the biggest gift that BB has ever given the American citizen. (those who back up the truck to APMEX I mean)

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:29
#161274

Ehmmnn... are you stuttering or something? It seems that every single thread I read, you sit here swaying back and forth chanting the same three lines.

Maybe I can help you to exit your trance - at least according to my humble perception of things.

There will most certainly be rally in the dollar at some point. This will happen when the carry trade unwinds and even worse when the world starts dumping the US Treasuries for real (in world reserve currency volumes).

The real question to me is, what will happen after that.

If the Treasury wants to prevent interest rates from going through the roof, it will have to buy the treasuries to stem the flood. That means MASSIVE money printing, because noone will buy US debt in that environment - hence hyperinflation.

If those who have sold the Treasuries want to keep their moneys value, they will have to convert their dollars into something else real quick. Other currencies including Gold would be the first stop.

It would be catastrophic, and the first step is a rising dollar and falling long treasuries. (Now?)

If/when the rest of the world gives up on the US policies, I would not be surprised to see central banks using a tumbling US stock market with massive capital flight into Treasuries being used as a great T-bill selling opportunity.

In the latter case I would look out for a rising dollar, flight to treasuries but with flat or falling prices on extreme volume, and after that a hard falling dollar.

Should this play out in full - it will be the end of the world as we know it - for all of us - not just the US citizents.

In that context I find your "I told you so" chanting with your silent diabolic laughter quite ugly to be honest.

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 17:53
#161512

Shut the fuck up Grand Supercycle.

by Orly
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 23:19
#161695

The USD is not ready to ramp yet.

You're early.  be very, very careful.

by anynonmous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:15
#161211

I guess Nouriel got the memo from his old business partner Larry Summers.

by TomB
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:17
#161213

Not gold but government debt and perceived wealth are the bubbles.

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2009/12/gold-ultimate-un-bubble.html

by merehuman
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:47
#161347

What about the confidence bubble , lol

Or the masses of unemployeed with no jobs coming. Period. Now theres a bubble.

How much do we owe in derivatives. Is that a bubble or black hole?

What really SUCKS about gold and silver is only this one thing...

I cant show it off, like my crew cab diesel,paid for. Invite my friends over and show of my silver collection? Sure. Its fine, i chose cremation .

So , no you cant, shouldnt show it off. Friends transform at most inconvenient times . And to do a utube show is just so vain. But it does suck when you cant show it to your friends.  Now thats  solved by  by having Puggles!

Disclaimer.....word "friend" used here implies casual friendships as most americans view it.

 

 

by Molon Labe
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:19
#161215

Gold, britches.

by Hephasteus
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:32
#161223

Barbaric Gold, Bitches!!!

by Missing_Link
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:13
#161261

A splendid idea!  Oh, how I would love a pair of gold britches.

And a copper hat, silver tunic, and platinum pantaloons.

by DoChenRollingBearing
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:41
#161449

And a Rhodium foil hat!

by WaterWings
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:40
#162997

I've been selling tungsten ones online - fools I tell ya!

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:23
#161218

There seems to be a lot of talking down Gold recently. Could it be because Dec 17th is next week and the COMEX will have have to ante up with physical delivery?

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:30
#161221

He's right on one thing: The whole "you can't eat gold" argument.

Gold: $1100ish an ounce
Spam: about $3/can

I'd hate to pay $1100 for a can of Spam I could have gotten for $3.

Bottom line: If you haven't stocked up your pantry like a Tribulation prepper, plus some lead to protect it, plus some camping gear to deal with austere conditions, and a car you can live in if push comes to shove, you are a fool to buy gold.

I've got everything but the lead, because I'm clueless about guns, being a spoiled suburban girl and all. But I do have a year's worth of vittles can camping gear to protect. Maybe: Is there a "men with guns" dating site? Maybe I should get a dog.

Don't ask me about my gold and silver though: I won't tell you. What gold and silver? (shh)

by merehuman
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:57
#161353

German shepherds are good solid friends. Very protective and smart. But theres nothing like  a shot gun. Just the sound of it scares most off even before you pull the trigger.  But to get real about it , this is no time to be stuck to your home unless you are in a secure environment. Surround by seniors in  your community is way different from living amongst the working class unemployed.

It will certainly be safer in a small town or isolated farm than in the cities.

 

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:10
#161422

yep, pump it once, then click the safety off. even if some thug is high on pcp, he will know that any further movement in your direction will make him go to that place of whaling and nashing of teeth, very fast.......

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 17:26
#161490

...there really is no sound more menacing, imho, than the sound of a round being chambered in 1 of my 2 AK-47s with 75 round magazines.

by MsCreant
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 09:15
#161863

Is that sound really different than a 30 round magazine?

by LoneStarHog
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 12:19
#162012

30 * 2.5 = 75.....So mathmatics (a.k.a. Denninger) proves that it must be 2.5 times louder.

by LoneStarHog
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 11:26
#161948

I have two German Shepherds and both are great shots with my Mossberg, Bushmaster & Glocks.  They are trained to shoot first and bite later.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:56
#163001

Better sound, coming from your mouth, authoritatively, just before the clickety-clack:

"You are in my home. I have called the police. I have a loaded ________ (just not BB gun)."

Few individuals realize the freedom of having the intruder flee so that you don't have to shoot, get arrested, harrassed, hire a lawyer (all depending on your state laws) and generally feel sick to your stomach after having taken the life of another human being.

You should explain more about the 'stuck in your home' part - a lot of these over-educated finance peeps have no idea what happens when crack addicts and prescription pill poppers have to stand in line for food after their 'supply' has been interrupted for a few days. 

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:25
#161380

Enroll yourself into an accredited
gun training school, get trained,
and then choose your weapon, something
along the lines of a 9mm semi-auto

Oh, captcha was easy today!

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:24
#161433

Send Pictures of the food.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 19:57
#161591

Hi - if you happen to have checked back, Google "Mossberg 50359". It is a 410 shotgun (smaller, less kick) designed specifically for home defense and, imo, for the ladies. Has a nice hand grip up front for pumping the shells (and hanging on if you're nervous), and still has that trademark "shotgun" sound that strikes terror into the hearts of bad guys. Take it out into the country with your camping gear and shoot it - lots. Then learn to clean and oil it on YouTube. You will get confidence quickly.

by delacroix
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 21:01
#161622

hi-point 9mm semi-auto pistol. $160   small, easy to use, cheap enough to throw away, if you had to. or if things get better, you could sell it later

by Anonymous
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 03:13
#161802

Easiest gun to use for a small-handed novice: Ladysmith (or other small frame Smith & Wesson) stainless .38 special with Crimson Trace laser sights.

by MsCreant
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 15:06
#162239

I have one. Bit of a kick for me (I always bleed [tiny] after practice) and it only has 5 rounds.

Glock 19, 9mm is kind to me. 15 rounds.

by Anonymous
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 08:25
#161853

Ooh baby, let's play House, er, campsite. Gold is singularly useless, until it isn't. Handy stuff at times, though. Camping gear is handy stuff to have around, I love the peace of mind inherent when a power outage or similar doesn't mean I'm cold, wet, or hungry. I'm single too, and of course planning my post-apocalyptic harem, but for now just one sensible girl would be fine. :)

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:34
#161224

Back when I used to comment very regularly on Roubini's blog, I used to get asked for investment advice. The only stock I ever recommended was Hormel, on the basis that Spam would ensure it would outperform in the recession/depression to come. I've never been a fan of gold, knowing that it deflates as surely as everything else in a deleveraging spiral.

I'm pleased to see that not only has Hormel outperformed for several years now, but Roubini has taken to Spam over gold as well.

by Anonymous
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 12:16
#162007

London Banker,

May I refer you to latest edition of Roy W. Jastram's The Golden Constant: The English and American Experience 1560-2007 with updated material by Jill LeyLand.

In a nutshell, Jastram quantifies that the value of gold is constant regardless of government intervention, regardless of inflation, and most surprisingly, regardless of deflation. Jastram identifies six periods of gold flux:

1. 1560-1700 Gold and commodity prices rise, diminishing gold's purchasing power.
2. 1701-1792 Gold stable but commodity prices fluctuating above and below gold.
3. 1793-1821 Napoleonic Wars
4. 1822-1914 Gold stable but commodity prices fluctuating above and below gold.
5. 1915-1930 Commodity prices wildly fluctuating; gold also fluctuates, but in a much narrower range.
6. 1931-1976 Soaring gold prices; Commodity price revolution. [Fiat money effect.]

Most surprising, Jastram observed that "operational wealth" of gold appreciated in major deflations.

He noted that gold was ineffective (sometimes backwards) as a year-to-year hedge against commodity price increases.

And he saw that gold maintains it purchasing power over the long periods because inflated and deflated commodity
prices return to gold's price.

As demostration it was noted that in the last 2,000 years there have been five great coins that have held their
value:
The Roman solidus which became the Byzantine nomisma,
the Islamic dinar,
the Venetian ducat,
and finally, the British sovereign.

If it were not for Gresham's law of bad money pushing out good under legal tender laws, these coins could be used in trade today.

So Let's see how the Spam analogy holds:
Hormel was $18.20 in 2000 and now it's approaching $40, not bad 100% gain.
But gold was $300/oz in 2000 and now it's approahing $1,200, even better 400% gain.

We all know that gold is not an investment, it's a protector and I am sticking with physical gold. Since I know you are a "prepper," I know you are holding gold as well.

by Anonymous
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 00:15
#162878

Happy to see many regular Roubini readers here. It's a small world. :)

by ConfederateH
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 01:32
#162962

We have been undergoing deflation for a year now, but you haven't noticed because although CB's have been spewing fiat, the supply of gold has been decreasing (hoarding) and prices in terms of grams of gold have been decreasing rapidly.  You have gold price deflation before your eyes, but refuse to recognize it.

by AnonymousMonetarist
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:35
#161225

http://anonymousmonetarist.blogspot.com/2009/12/unbearable-brightness-of-doing-nothing.html

Charts are from Nathan at economicedge.blogspot.com

 

The top is 1929-30
The middle is 2008-2009
The bottom is the onset First Great Depression

My recollection is that it was not until 1934 that the term Great Depression was in wide use. Think about that for a moment.

If you click on the link to the right called Rhyming you can read reports from 79 years ago. The similarities smack you right in the face.

Mom asked me the other day if the markets were going to go up or down. I said yes. I'm confident that I am right. 

The markets are a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but there is a key. That key is the Amerikantura's (copyright applied for) interest.

On the one Hand are the forces of darkness; if you have read past entries on this blog it is clear that empirically, per employment levels, we are in the Second Great Depression.

On the other Hand, there are the dark forces, namely THE HAND ... determined to sawtooth the markets through the midterm elections, liftng asset values with a gentle wind - an upward trend that is the lubrication of debasement.

The 'regulatory put' is a spigot of liquidity that fills the Nancy Capitalists' chalice of confidence. 

Intellectually, giving both the deflationista and debasionista camps their due, it seems to me that we are at a stalemate, that we are stuck in a moment.

Graphs supporting this can be seen to the right at Thought Offerings in the posting entitled : 'Deadlock! Total Borrowing Has Stabilized at a Mild Contraction Rate as Private Debt Reduction Stops Increasing and Government Borrowing Stays Steady.'

Do not envy the folks that over the next few years either manage money or will be held accountable for their financial advice. 

FWIW,I sold my local phone company in 2000. My current enterprise was predicated in part, on the expectation of a Great Depression.

If, gun to head, had to offer in a nutshell the investment theme for 2010?

It would be The Unbearable Brightness of Doing Nothing. 

Opting out, once again.

 

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:26
#161336

Hey LB, nice threads and sunglasses.
You still da man.

by merehuman
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:02
#161360

Mr monetarist you speak well and have me wishing i had gone to college.

by ThreeTrees
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:37
#161389

Those charts are scary.  One has the impression of cresting the first rise of a rollercoaster track.

Nice post.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:45
#161399

The expression Depression came from President Hoover.

When asked by a newsman if the American economy had entered a 'slump' Hoover responded that it was not a slump, just a slight 'depression.'

Subsequently the term hit the pages time and again.

By 1934 the term of art had morphed into one of scorn: the nation was in a Great Depression.

///

Before this era all business contractions were referred to as SLUMPS. That tabooed term fell completely out of use in the 30's.

And now you know.

by AnonymousMonetarist
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:31
#161443

Incorrect.

Did some digging.

James Monroe, for example, during the Panic of 1819, referred to the onslaught of bank failures and a depreciating currency as “the depression.” In 1874, during the Panic of 1873, Ulysses S. Grant expressed his concern over “the depression in the industries and prosperity of our people.” Rutherford B. Hayes similarly remarked during his inaugural address in 1877, that “the depression in all our varied commercial and manufacturing interests throughout the country... still continues.” 

In 1934, after Hoover’s tenure in office, Lionel Robbins wrote the book, The Great Depression, which contains what some historians, notably David F. Burg, consider to be the fist usage of the phrase we now use to to describe the economic meltdown on the 1930s.

 

 

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 17:25
#161489

None the less, if you dig into the contemporaneous media the term depression was NOT used.

Perhaps it's because SLUMP uses less letters.

BTW, Hoover made his comment on film and it was replayed on the screen nationally.

The morphing of slight depression into major depression and then ultimately Great Depression, with caps was noted by M. Friedman many years age.

As my grandfather told me, until it happened in the 30's, he'd never heard the term depression -- and he graduated with William O. Douglas. ( Twelve in the class IIRC )

In 1930 the common man's bug-a-boo was a SLUMP.

Today if you told someone that we were in a terrible slump they'd ask you what the hell you're talking about. Slump as an economic term of art has completely fallen out of use.

BTW, recession was invented as a term of political art to stay away from the word depression.

It was all ever spin, political spin. Politicians came up with these terms -- never an economist.

by nicholsong
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 02:38
#161798

The markets are not a mystery wrapped in a riddle. They are wrapped in bacon.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:04
#162973

No wonder 'Mericans are fat! They can't get enough of the lies!

by bokapita
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:35
#161226

"in spite of no near-term risk of inflation or of depression"

The Roubini analysis is too narrow. Professional economists, all of whom learned at their mother's knee the great untruths and half truths of this discredited discipline, remain unable to recognise behaviour that is not foretold in the discipline's tomes.

GET THIS STRAIGHT ECONOMISTS: gold has gone up because people want INSURANCE - that is, they think/feel/reason/intuit/fear/ that paper/currencies/shares/bonds/annuities/ savings/pension funds/ etc etc may soon be TOAST because they think/feel/reason/intuit/ fear/ that the economic performance of western economies has been and will continue to be totally shafted by a political/financial elite that are either corrupt, incapable, stupid, paralysed, or any combination of these things.

So now you know professional economists. In a world of trillion dollar/pound/euro debt, monetisation and outright forgery of asset prices and balance sheet valuations, quite a lot of people don't give a monkey's about their measly 0.75 of 1% (after tax) missed-out-on "return". They just cannot think of anything else likely to preserve its worth after the collapse that seems quite inevitable to all but the political officer-classes steering the ship.

 

by Anton LaVey
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:32
#161279

+100:

GET THIS STRAIGHT ECONOMISTS: gold has gone up because people want INSURANCE

Amen, brother.

(Twice in a row in a ZH discussion: a record for me).

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:46
#161451

Professional economists, all of whom learned at their mother's knee the great untruths and half truths of this discredited discipline, remain unable to recognise behaviour that is not foretold in the discipline's tomes.

Well said. Roubini is definitely one of these ignorant "professional economists" or "Fed minions" as I like to call them. I would not trust them with my money if my life depended on it. Perhaps the moron Roubini will learn better when the only people with enough capital left to employ anyone are the gold bugs.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:07
#162975

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:36
#161230

doctor doom doesn't get it. never will either. i knew it all along.....

by London Banker
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:37
#161231

Back when I used to comment very regularly on Roubini's blog, I used to get asked for investment advice.  The only stock I ever recommended was Hormel, on the basis that Spam would ensure it would outperform in the recession/depression to come.  I've never been a fan of gold, knowing that it deflates as surely as everything else in a deleveraging spiral.

I'm pleased to see that not only has Hormel outperformed for several years now, but Roubini has taken to Spam over gold as well.

by Anton LaVey
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:29
#161275

Gold deflates like everything else: agreed. BUT... (a) it will never get to zero, (b) it will stay convertible in liquidity rather easily, even in a very severe recession (which is the case right now) and (c) it will probably lose value slower than any other asset class, with the possible exception of silver.

I really don't like spam, but another asset you might want to consider are cigarettes. When the sh*t hits the fan, there will be a lot of addicted people out there, ready to work , barter, trade and buy their favourite drug.

Let's face it: all this talk about stocking food, ammo and gas in a private invisible bunker is just silly talk. Depression, inflation, or even hyper-inflation: all of these are now distinct possibilities, if not outright certainty.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:52
#162984

Let's face it: all this talk about stocking food, ammo and gas in a private invisible bunker is just silly talk. Depression, inflation, or even hyper-inflation: all of these are now distinct possibilities, if not outright certainty.

Wait, which one? You're saying the one thing in the first sentence, and then 'you are making big joke?' in the next? I wish they made invisible bunkers, and public shelters are available now (I don't recommend them), but food, ammo, and gas would all have been great, in quantity, in 1920's Germany!

Please explain because I'm confoozed. You're so silly!

by Anton LaVey
on Wed, 12/16/2009 - 08:20
#165741

I am trying to point out the obvious: if you are into stockpiling stuff, include cigarettes, even if you are not a smoker. Cigarettes are cheap, easily stored even in large quantities, and people addicted to their smokes will trade you a lot of (precious) stuff for their daily dose of tobacco. So cigarettes it is. Take a look at cluborlov.blospot.com for an example of this (you may have to search within the archives).

On the other hand, total collapse of civilization, as envisioned by many here on ZH is getting tedious and, frankly, more than a little silly. Society will continue to function - more or less - even in a deflation, depression, or high inflation. We are in for a lot of pain, but I don't think I'll have to lock my family in a super-security bunker anytime soon.

At least, I hope I am right. But I may be wrong. Like many statement, on ZH and elsewhere, you have to make up your mind, and think for yourself.

by MsCreant
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:41
#162998

I'm sort of with waterwings here. If you think these things are possible or likely, why is stock piling a bad idea? Do you think things will be so out of control that there is no use in trying?

I am one of your silly people. I do it because there could be an earthquake. I do it because there could be other natural disasters. I do it because I saw NO, like you did, on television. I do it because I realized that I am dependent on a very fragile distribution system that could go down at any time for a number of reasons. I even do it in case I lose my job, I will not feel like a drain on my husband (for a while) because I have saved and stock piled.

To be gentle with you, I do not see this as silly. If you are my neighbor, I hope you prepare too. Then you and I can stand side by side in the community and help others, and thus help ourselves. I am selfish like that.

Peace, if you ever see this.

by Rusty_Shackleford
on Tue, 12/15/2009 - 14:52
#164863

Bingo.

Everybody drives around with a spare tire in their trunk in case they get a flat tire. 

Is everyone paranoid and obsessed with flat tires?

Of course not.  It is insurance against a real, although infrequent and relatively unlikely, occurrence.  Once you have the spare, you no longer have to constantly worry about getting a flat.  If it happens, you're covered.

 

When one stops and thinks about the fragility of the supply lines of the things they absolutely require to survive, and the simple fact that they exert absolutely no control over them, I have no idea how most people can sleep at night.

 

About 15 years ago, the local tax-feeders shut off the electricity and water to my neighborhood to do some kind of repair/project.  Things invariably didn't go as planned and things were down for about 40 hours.

It was almost like Lord of the Flies

I shit you not. 

 

It woke me the hell up.

 

This thin veneer of civilization peels away rather quickly.

by Anton LaVey
on Wed, 12/16/2009 - 08:31
#165754

Dear MsCreant: I agree with most of what you posted, but here are a few points for you to ponder...

 

  • We don't live in the same country. I suspect you live in the USA, with large distances and a slightly higher degree of violence. I live in a much smaller country, with less violence (for now) and a somewhat stronger social fabric. I expect the country I live in to do better than the U.S.
  • I "stockpile" food - I probably have about a week or two of foodstuff in the pantry and freezer. But if the sh*t really hits the fan, I'll probably take my whole family out to the countryside, where I have relatives and I know I'll have much better access to foodstuff (thank heavens and fate for my Grandpa and his veggie garden).
  • What you (and many others) are planning for is a complete collapse of society. I am sorry, but, to me, this simply sounds silly. There will be pain, some things will break down, but I don't expect riots in the streets and murder around every other street corner.

Again, different circumstances mean different outlooks. What you are doing may be appropriate for your circumstances. I hope mine never become as dire.

I hope this explains my position. As I have said, we are in different countries and different situations. What may sound like good, smart planning simply sounds rather silly to me. But I may be wrong.

by JR
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:00
#161302

Don’t be such a stranger, London Banker. I've missed your outstanding work.  A few LB contributor posts on Zero Hedge would be, for many, frosting on the cake.

I quote a column from days gone by, May 15, 2008, to be exact: Looting the Vaults at the Central Banks | London Banker. It began:

“When I was a young central banker, we often spent our lunchtimes debating how best to rob our employer. Tempted by the thought of great mounds of gold ingots far beneath us in the third sub-basement, nestling deep in bedrock, we would speculate on the viability of various plans for plundering our nation’s store of wealth. The presence of sufficient security forces to defend a medium size city and enough steel around the vault for a battle cruiser only spurred our youthful imaginations. After some months of fantasy gold robbery, I began to assert to my colleagues that stealing the gold would be foolish as it would be impossible to get away with enough gold in city traffic to make the attempt worthwhile, and selling it in any sizeable amount would lead to instant detection. I argued instead in favour of stealing the wheelie bins of cash conveniently lining the hallway to the loading ramp. Cash would be faster and easier to steal and more liquid to spend than gold.

“I see now that I was a central banker of very little brain – and lacking ambition. The way to rob a central bank efficiently is to be a bank executive so skilled in financial engineering that I take my bank to the edge of extinction. I can then swap all my unpriceable, illiquid, engineered credit instruments for good central bank cash and Treasuries. That’s larceny without risk, making the central bank a complicit partner in the looting of its vaults, and earning gratitude and bonuses instead of audits and indictments...

And concluded:

“Without transparency of central bank facilities and policies, there can be no accountability for misuse of public resources and abuse of the public trust. Transparency provides an essential check on bank mismanagement, even for central bankers.

“When Bloomberg revealed this week that Ben Bernanke lunched with Dimon at the New York Fed on March 11 with key Wall Street bankers just three days before the emergency $14 billion financing for Bear Stearns and five days before the sweetheart $30 billion financing of JPMorgan’s acquisition of Bear (again, the acquired assets the Fed received for the cash are secret), it made me very uneasy. Suspicious minds might think the public interest and integrity of market mechanisms, including the corrective of the occasional failure, weren't foremost in their discussions.

“Whether cock-up or conspiracy, recent reforms set the scene for looting of the central banks on a scale never imagined by my younger self.”

And lest we forget, from the Bloomberg article you referenced:  Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke lunched on March 11 with a Who's Who of Wall Street leaders, including JPMorgan Chase & Co.'s Jamie Dimon, three days before the central bank rescued Bear Stearns Cos. from bankruptcy…
”Other guests included Goldman Sachs Group Inc. Chief Executive Lloyd Blankfein, Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. CEO Richard Fuld, Morgan Stanley President James Gorman, Citigroup Inc.'s Robert Rubin, Blackstone Group CEO Stephen Schwarzman and Merrill Lynch & Co. CEO John Thain. Alan Schwartz, the CEO of Bear Stearns, was not listed among the attendees.”

What, the boys didn’t include their designated patsy: Ken Lewis?

by deadhead
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:10
#161423

Echo...I would love to read more of London Banker.

Please do not be a stranger LB...whadda you say?

 

by London Banker
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 00:34
#161743

Many thanks for reminding me that I can write powerfully and clearly when motivated.  There's more at LondonBanker.blogspot.com for those interested, though not all to the same standard as the excerpt above.

For now I'm toiling at the financial coalface in a job, and not writing, except to drop the occasional comment here and on Professor Roubini's blog.  I miss the days I had leisure to reflect on current events long enough to write about them, but the work I'm doing justifies the sacrifice.

by AnonymousMonetarist
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:11
#161316

Your blog is missed, you're one of the reasons I started mine.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:39
#161235

perhaps the good doctor can explain why russia, india and china are backing up the truck and loading up the barbarous relic........

by SWRichmond
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:48
#161237

Roubini is a moron.


"...gold has little intrinsic value and that most of its price movements are based on beliefs and bubbles. As an insurance policy against the tail risk of eventual inflation, it may be useful to hold a small amount of gold in one’s portfolio, but stocking up portfolios with a fiat currency that has marginal practical use, a zero nominal interest rate, high storage costs, and the price of which is subject to volatile whims and bubbles is totally irrational."

seriatim:

  • gold has little intrinsic value - as opposed to paper currency-thingies, which have NO intrinsic value at all, are easily counterfeited (and frequently are by their own issuers) and which require men with guns to enforce their tender value / marketability.
  • most of its price movements are based on beliefs and bubbles - as distinguished from paper currency-thingies, which have an easily-demonstrated 40-year bubble cycle here in the U.S. that goes like this: default, debase, brag, default, debase, brag...
  • As an insurance policy against the tail risk of eventual inflation - tail risk of eventual inflation?  Has the good doctor been in a grocery store lately?
  • it may be useful to hold a small amount of gold in one’s portfolio - gruding endorsements from ideologocal opponents are always welcome
  • but stocking up portfolios with a fiat currency that has marginal practical use - and of what practical use are Enron stock certificates?
  • a zero nominal interest rate - you mean T bills? I agree completely, and besides, why would I loan money to my oppressor?
  • high storage costs - You've got me there, one out of nine ain't that bad, but then there's always the Bank of Gaea
  • and the price of which is subject to volatile whims and bubbles - looked at USDX lately?
  • is totally irrational - let me put it my way: which is more irrational, a) trusting as valuable something that, for numerous reasons, humans have regarded as valuable for thousands of years, or b) trusting as valuable something that unelected people can control the value of, and which requires men with guns to enforce its value?  It makes no sense at all to be paid small quantities of currency-thingies for a days labor when vast quantities of those same currency-thingies can be clicked into existence at the whim of one man.  That is, it makes no sense to the payee, granting it makes perfect sense to the payor.  And isn't that what this is really about?

Call me a goldbug.  Then, in your next breaths, refute my arguments.

by Rusty_Shackleford
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:51
#161296

fxxkin-A.

by Molon Labe
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 17:18
#161484

Well, now that you put it that way...

by Gordon_Gekko
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 17:40
#161501

+100000

by nicholsong
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 03:00
#161800

Well done.

Methinks the Roub is on the wrong end of some gold action and is talking his book.

by anarkst
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 16:57
#162374

Roubini is all about Roubini.  

by WaterWings
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 03:45
#163022

Fecking great!

Whenever the Fed says inflation we should think, in our little brains, 'percentage increase, year-over-year, of official counterfeiting'.

as opposed to paper currency-thingies, which have NO intrinsic value at all, are easily counterfeited (and frequently are by their own issuers) and which require men with guns to enforce their tender value / marketability.

by TumblingDice
on Tue, 12/15/2009 - 00:49
#164222

All of your arguments are correct, but I disagree with on whether gold is the best place to put your fiat money to "work". This is based on a personal conclusion of mine that we are in the middle of an irreversible trend that will last the lifetimes of everyone posting here: things of extrinsic value will outpace things of intrisic value.

Oil has the advantage of having a much higher intrinsic value and of a diminishing, as compared to gold's constant, supply.

by merehuman
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:47
#161242

It may turn out the gold and silver bugs will save the country.

Assuming a financial collapse (within sight) of our country someone must have collateral to  hire, to build and reconstruct the business sector.

I have no desire to rebuild with borrowed money of dubious value and repeat the mistakes of the past.  (borrow from who..? and be beholden to?)

This coming year many will have their treasure ,like mine, in the garden. Next fall I anticipate a bounty in potatoes, squash, carrots ,silver and gold.  My PM has already been planted/buried.

Nor is this a selfish deed, growing more than i need and gladly sharing it as i did last summer. But sharing is a must in our future , because none of us can truly stand alone and meet all our own needs. To share , one must have!

Gold and silver  can still be bought . NOW. But there is a limited supply , and it can still be bought with paper ! Oh Yeah!

 

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:04
#161362

No high storage costs for you.

by tip e. canoe
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:45
#161452

"Nor is this a selfish deed, growing more than i need and gladly sharing it as i did last summer. But sharing is a must in our future , because none of us can truly stand alone and meet all our own needs. To share , one must have!"

to quote count anton, amen brother.

growing any winter veggies at all?

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 17:31
#161493

naw! we will only save ourselves. the heck with the mind numbed robots. they have been warned again and again and they laugh. we were the squirrels in august, running around gathering up fallen nuts and stashing them away for the cold winter and while we worked ,the morons in this country partied and did their natural born thing. well what goes around comes around. they stayed too long at the party. is it my fault? nope and there will be no quarter given either in that day. i have a long memory. i forgive but i don't forget.

by delacroix
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 21:15
#161627

cooperation, is the true backbone of progress. I hope the neighbors will barter for eggs

by JR
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 12:58
#161247

Forgive the interruption but here’s one for Tyler Durden.

Alan Abelson, Barron’s today:

“As several wide-awake observers have pointed out, moreover, the so-called Emergency Jobless Insurance Claims, filed by people who have exhausted their regular benefits, at last count reached a peak 4.2 million.  On that score, the pseudonymous “Tyler Durden” of Zero Hedge cautions, “Look for this number to keep going into the stratosphere.”

by deadhead
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:13
#161427

golf clap!

thanks for posting JR.

by WaterWings
on Mon, 12/14/2009 - 02:54
#163003

Yeah, nice! Nothing like a collective actually being smarter. Muchas gracias.

by jimmyjames
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:00
#161248

Gold is not a good hedge against Inflation--

It does hold its buying power,but credit is your best bet--

Gold does well in 3 instances--

Hyper-inflation/currency collapse--political instability and it does the best,in Deflation--

It's never about the price--

It's always about buying power--

Same as with the dollar,it really doesn't matter how many dollars you hold,its about what your dollar can buy--

Gold is increasing its buying power,all assets are deflating against Gold,they did in the 30's as well,the dollar was locked to Gold and so it was actually Gold--

Thus the saying--cash is king in deflation--

Today we have a choice of which cash we wish to hold--

My choice is Gold--

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:02
#161249

Is Roubini aware the amount of money spent on Beauty?

Feminine Beauty, Architectural beauty, Automitive Aesthetics, Decoration etc?

According to Roubini, diamonds have little value as well.

In fact, Emeralds, rubies, gold, diamonds, paint, all worthless. That's his logic.

-MobBarley

by Sqworl
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 16:46
#161453

Hush, his ladies should not know that he thinks this way....

by delacroix
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 21:19
#161629

maybe I should stockpile a little mascara, and lipstick. nylon stockings, were good as gold in WW2.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:06
#161253

Gold britches?

http://cdn.buzznet.com/media/jjr//2009/08/olesya-gold/olesya-rulin-gold-pants-02.jpg

Gold has a lot of intrinsic value. Intrinsically, it's:

1. Scarce
2. Compact
3. Unusually corrosion resistant
4. Not radioactive
5. Not chemically toxic
6. Unusually malleable
7. Identifiable
8. Diamagnetic

Well ok, I just threw that last one in. But what's not to like?

And I'd bet you that Roubini couldn't name half a dozen things that are diamagnetic, just off the top of his head.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:07
#161254

Gold is great for the producers and the trading house that sells and buys it back. Everyone else is just kooky. Reminds me of the precious Gems I have in a safe that have an appraisal of $500,000 but no one but a fool would pay more than $5000 for. Gems were all the rage as well. Gold is a tulip market.

by SWRichmond
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:38
#161392

I can't begin to tell you how many times I've seen this argument: "Gold is bad, and I'm rich, which means I'm smarter than you, so you should believe me."

by bilbert
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 00:46
#161751

Yep!! good thing your "precious gems" are all 99.99% pure, easy to verify content, and not prone to visible occlusions or variations of cut, clarity or color.

That's likely why I'm seeing so many "buy your questionable gemstones for cash" signs littering the many thoroughfares of my city.

BTW - did YOU pay more than $5,000 for your "gems"?

Can you say: "non-sequitor", or does logic defy you with its complexity?

 

 

 

 

 

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:10
#161259

The need to pay down debt will force people sell their gold ... last month I read an article about a commercial bank that bought a record amount of gold this year from the population.

As deflation becomes stronger and stronger, more and more assets need to be sold to be able to make the payments.

In a fractional reserve monetary system money is debt. Contrary to popular believe, central banks DO NOT PRINT MONEY, they lend to create money, because MONEY=DEBT, debt that eventually needs to be payed back with interest.

For such a monetary system to work, you need exponential economic growth, otherwise the existing debt will crush everything.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 14:41
#161345

Yes but what if that lending new money into existence idea includes lending newly printed money in exchange for horribly impaired collateral. MBS used as collateral for money from the fed, with the fed paying par value, and including the proviso that the debt may be infinitely rolled over. The taxpayer or currency holder is ultimately responsible for that malfeasance but his input in the decision making is neither solicited nor considered.

That is printing. That is inflation. That is debauchery of money. That destroys confidence. That disincentivizes man's natural yearning to acquire beyond meeting a sufficiency of his needs. That decompression from producing a superabundance to more modest or even survival level crushes an economy. Gov't jumps to fill the gap, but only with more money not production.

Hyperinflation, destruction of currency, collapse of savings and impoverishment of the middle class.

The ugly underbelly of fiat currency and fractional reserve banking made virulent by state sponsored fraud and accounting corruption. Devestation and famine of all physical supply.

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:12
#161260

I think Silver Bullet is on the right track . Since 1971 the whole world started to believe in pieces of paper (fiat currency). Since that time we have devalued the fiat currency close to zero. So now we cannot collectivley make up our minds if gold is a commodity or currency. If we decide it is a commodity or a currency it is still tied to fiat currency.

by Missing_Link
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:13
#161262

Buy mithril!

by MsCreant
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 09:48
#161877

Could you make, like, an AR or AK out of that with pluses to hit with each shot?

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:24
#161270

I am the author of new book - SUB PRIME RESOLVED – which contains a brilliant investigative expose "Where is Mackenna's Gold". This conclusively proves using official figures that United States has lost 6297 of 8134 tons of gold in surrepticious hedging operations. Visit the following site to buy this book and read the Chapter 14 which is a 30 page expose. What you have been doing for over 10 years, but unable to prove to the American people, is proved in this book.

Also read my latest article "GOLD $6400, SILVER $80 - why would they be at" in my blog http://anilselarka.com
My Book website: http://www. subprimeresolved.com

You can download PDF file of that article by visiting my blog from Box.net sidebar under Articles or by visiting Scribd website

http://www.scribd.com/full/23489978?access_key=key-1uqrl4i09fxxy3bk8ykp

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:30
#161276

on the other hand, I must say it's my 1kg bar of gold looks pretty great in the safe.

First I thought about buying bullions, but they don't have the flair.

by nicholsong
on Sun, 12/13/2009 - 03:09
#161801

Uh, your formed gold brick stamped with 1kg is not bullion?

The definition of gold bullion is: a refined and stamped weight of gold.

Methinks you are talking out of a paper asshole.

by Fish Gone Bad
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:31
#161277

If you want to hedge against inflation, stock up on Spam or other canned food - This is good advice in general.  At some point in everyone's life, a disaster will occur.  Keep at least a few days supplies of basic things you need everyday.  A few cans of spam, some corn, beans, water, etc. 

by milbank
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 15:37
#161391

If you want a hedge against inflation, use my favorite...

Forever stamps. ;-|)

by Anonymous
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:31
#161278

Stock up on lead. Pass the ammo.

by john_connor
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 13:45
#161281

"Mr. Roubini is wrong on one key argument: gold bug mania is not so much driven by the dream of fiat currency destruction (we all know the race to the bottom is on everywhere except in Europe which as discussed above has it own unique set of circumstances), but by the volatility in the actual reversal from expansion to contraction monetary phases. The Fed is in uncharted monetary policy territory, and way out of its comfort zone. If history is any indication, Greenspan, who was unable to control the runaway train of monetary glutting in the early 2000s, is a perfect case study of what will happen - why would Bernanke, who is Alan "Moral Hazard" Greenspan reincarnated, get it right? Especially, having demonstrated over the past month a complete lack of comprehension of asset bubble existence."

I agree and disagree.  Sure, the transition between contraction and expansion is not likely to be orderly, but the analogy to Greenspan as a perfect case study is a dangerous assumption considering our situation now is much different compared to 2001.  Greenspan had the fortune of having housing as an outlet to create another bubble after the Nasdaq crash and 9/11.  Then, banks were very willing to lend, and consumers were very willing, and had the capacity, to lever up and borrow.  Add in deregulation, lax underwriting standards, and the rest is history.  This was the perfect storm to set up the bubble of all bubbles in a debt based monetary system.  So, fast forward to 2009, the bubble has burst and we are on the other side.  How can the Fed "transmit" its monetization of toxic mortgage backed securities into the real world?  Are the banks lending and are consumers borrowing?  Well no, as everyone already knows.  What is missing is that current asset prices (at least what remains post 2007) were a product of 40-1 or higher leverage taken on by banks, all on the backs of middle class borrowers who overextended themselves.  With 40-1 leverage, it only takes 2.5% bad loans to make one go broke.  In the end, the banks are still insolvent and middle class borrower is deader than dead.  In this situation, asset prices in a debt based monetary system have nowehere to go but down.  The counterfeiting machine is broken, and it will be broken until the banks take losses, and the middle class is able to get a job with sustainable wage inflation.

People will say "But the US government is taking up the slack from missing private demand."  True, but they are barely putting a dent in things.  And how about our governments ability to take on more debt without drowning in interest expense?  That is laughable indeed.  The O team is already taking a huge amount of heat about the deficit, and the kitchen will only get hotter as mid terms approach.

What does this mean for gold?  In the context of my argument above, the argument for gold going to 6K has the same likelihood as Taleb's six sigma point of singularity for equities.  That is; it is unlikely.  Can it go up from here?  Sure.  But as I have said before, I'd rather hold physical as insurance.     

by delacroix
on Sat, 12/12/2009 - 21:29
#161634

fiat currency does not have to be destroyed, to drive gold up, just damaged.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.