The Run On Greece Is Here: Investors Pull Out €10 Billion From The Troubled Country; Crisis Escalation Approaches

Remember the proverbial run on the bank? Well, that was the norm (or rather the outlier) before governments decided to backstop entire financial industries residing within their territory. As a result, the post-Lehman version of "the bank run" will henceforth be referred to as "the country run" and for an example of one in practice, look no further than Greece. The Guardian reports that investors have pulled a stunning €8-10 billion since the Greek crisis commenced in earnest last November. If true, this is the beginning of the end for the troubled EMU-member country.
"In the last four to six weeks a lot of money has been moved abroad; I've heard extraordinary figures," analyst, Kostas Panagopoulos said.
"People are moving funds either because they don't trust our banking system, want to avoid what they fear will be taxes on deposits or are simply anxious about the future of our economy."
What is ironic is the previously discussed pervasive tax fraud in the country where very few resident actually declare their true income. As a result the implication of these sudden withdrawals on the country banking system is likely exponentially magnified:
While a fifth of the population lives beneath the poverty line, some 20% of Greeks are believed to earn more than €100,000 annually – even if, according to income tax records, 90% declare salaries of less than €30,000 a year.
"Greece has a lot of rich people who are not being taxed properly because there is so much tax evasion," finance minister Giorgos Papaconstantinou, told the Observer. "If you look at the actual numbers, you will see that the number of people declaring over €100,000 a year is roughly 15,000," he said. "I don't think that there is anyone in this country who believes there are only 15,000 Greeks earning more than €100,000 a year."
And as if the Greek population needed any more reasons to deteset the current economic fiasco, and to draw even more distinct lines of social separation:
The growing flight of funds from Greece has whipped up much resentment among the public. "It's revolting," said one popular radio chat-show host last week. "After pillaging the country, they flee with their ill-gotten gains at the very mention of the word tax."
If you will recall a mere 15 months back, the one factor that truuly excerbated the pre and post-Lehman fiasco, both domestically and globally, was investors' loss of conifdence in the system: first in the deposit custodians and then in money markets themselves. As the financial system is never, by definition, prepared for massive fund flows in the outward bound direction, this is the greatest nightmare of any regulator or any central bank. If indeed the money rush out of Greece has commenced, then it is too late to save the country, no matter what Papandreou or Almunia will say: the only voice that matters is that of the depositor, and what is being said is the polar opposite of the claims of those who continue lying and telling us that everything is fine.
Putting the €10 billion number in perspective: Greece is facing roughly €8 billion in near-term maturities in April and May each. This is Greece, not America, and €10 billion is still a massive number. The latest miraculous Greek bond issue, which was supposed to sound the "all clear" call, was for €8 billion. Investors in that particular GGB are already underwater.
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on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:33
#221300
most interesting weekend since mid-Sept 2008?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:50
#221470
a laughably simplistic analysis of the current situation. I dare you to stay short, you bunch of doomsaying morons. LOL the next 15 days will be a riot watching the shorts run for cover.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 19:30
#221592
Ben, is that you?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 20:51
#221652
It is a REDACTED that REDACTED your REDACTED. Further, this insidious REDACTED will REDACTED into your REDACTED in such a way that it will quickly REDACTED your REDACTED.
I hope that clears things up.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:50
#221471
a laughably simplistic analysis of the current situation. I dare you to stay short, you bunch of doomsaying morons. LOL the next 15 days will be a riot watching the shorts run for cover.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:53
#221519
The bursting of the largest credit bubble in history actually is pretty simple. It is just the type of fundamental event that most investors believe move markets. In this case, they are right, except now they are all contrarians.
Enjoy the Crash. Next week, next month, even next year.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:00
#221529
I'm a simple dog, I admit it, and have no financial/trading background, so I'm totally ignorant of the ways of the financial world...and I buy that Greece may not be the trigger.
...but I did get all money out of the market (not much, but all I got, in Sept 2007 (a tich early), made money shorting, and put 401k back in equities in late March 09, got out in Nov, but lost a little money shorting banks..so my general, simplistic instincts have done me okay...
are you saying there will be a bounce or that everything will rally from here on out for the next year and on? that, in my simple mind, is not likely...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:57
#221565
Wow--you're some timer. Where do we go from here, hotshot
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 22:53
#221753
no just work in construction, saw housing bubble coming, waited what I thought too long to get out, then figured I didn't have tons to lose in march when things got low, didn't get out as early in fall as I thought I should... you should ask me not when I think I should do something but when I actually do something...besides, don't you have to have more than thousands on the line to be a hotshot?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 19:47
#221603
I think you made a smart decision. Not losing money is always smart. Current market conditions are so precariously catastrophic - one event could make the whole damn thing go. Timmy and Ben can't keep plugging holes in the dam forever. Only when this market corrects, will I have the balls to go back in. There's no way I will buy into companies with the P/E multiples that they currently carry. Don't feel bad, I lost some money trying to short banks too:) It is good that your reading zerohedge, your financial background is already leaps ahead of many sheeple.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 19:47
#221604
duplicate
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 05:31
#221964
short what, the euro? please, all, be specific.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:35
#221301
Bank run???
Have'nt seen one since '29
Oopps.....
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:01
#221530
it seems that bank runs work backwards now
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:37
#221305
take the market down!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:38
#221306
One drawback of EU membership is that traditional defense mechanisms, such as Exchange Controls restricting outflows of capital are no longer available. The US does not have this problem.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:50
#221320
US restricting outflows would cause a bigger problem...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:32
#221453
Are there any other drawbacks?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:40
#221509
Cannot print their way out of the hole they are in.
That one is lethal.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:54
#221521
But California does.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:27
#221546
Print more IOU's, California style!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:38
#221308
Germany will save them, right? - - - Right? - - - I mean they've got to - right? Otherwise things will be a mess, right?
They said on Bloomberg everything was OK, right?
Everything is going to be OK, isn't it?
Isn't it?
Isn't it? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ???
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:47
#221315
Save them with what? Nations are like a bunch of stooges running around with credit cards pledging portions of their limit to "rescue" companies and countries. Eventually, the credit card maxes out. It's going to get ugly. Brass, lead and food are going to be valuable commodities in the New World Disorder.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:02
#221341
lead???
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:17
#221356
Of course, how can a country survive with unbalanced car wheels...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:34
#221454
Use unbalanced politicians instead?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:19
#221359
Traditionally lead was the bullet component of the cartridge. However, after the enviro freaks got a hold of it, bullets are now composed of other metals. However, "lead" is used to connotate the "preparation for the confrontation".
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:26
#221438
Quite inaccurate. The overwhelming majority (99.9%?) of bullets made and used in the West still use lead cores. There are a tiny handful of bullets available that are non-lead, either for target use at indoor ranges or for hunting in California, but they are a miniscule part of either civilian or military markets. So yes, lead still rules.
In the former com-bloc steel cored bullets are somewhat more common, purely for cost reasons (neither environmental nor, as sometimes mistakenly claimed, armor piercing reasons). These are quite uncommon in the US.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:32
#221374
Brass & lead as in FMJ..... ;>)
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:47
#221398
I'd recommend hollow points. Greater stopping effectiveness.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:00
#221409
I'd recommend hollow points. Better stopping power....
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:26
#221440
I find that .308 hollow points are a tad overkill for turkey.
How about you?
-MB
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:33
#221465
#1398 & 1409:
Also inaccurate, in that they frequently fragment on impact, doing less damage to the target. The hollow point has also been known to get filled with material as they pass thru clothing, rendering the expansion idea worthless.
Check www.neardeathexperiments.com on this and more.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:20
#221541
I mostly use .600 and .700 flat nose solids.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 20:10
#221622
MM,
.600/.700?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 20:31
#221632
I figured it was as credible and intelligent as 99% of the other gun "info" posted here.
WHAT? You don't use a .700 Tyrannosaur for squirrels and coyotes? =)
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 22:07
#221715
oic, so then i presume you're with the brady bunch then? Since you feel so strongly about it, you might want to put a sign on your lawn that says: "i don't think guns are credible or intelligent and you won't find any in THIS house"
....be sure to let the rest of us know how well that works out for you when the shit really hits the fan with the economy.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 22:21
#221723
I've probably been a member of the NRA longer than you have. You completely misinterpret my point, which is that so much of the gun comments here are worthy of teenagers and bad (bad...) gun shops, I thought I would add my own bad advice.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 23:55
#221810
Gotcha'. Sorry for confusion. Not always easy to know the intent when dealing with the written word and not spoken. Glad to know there are other pro-2A members on this site.
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 00:16
#221827
Why do I use 600 nitro express? Because well they don't make a 700 nitro express.
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 11:37
#222192
(cough)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/700_nitro_express
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 14:02
#222350
LOL. That's actually an old joke. Some elephant hunter got asked why he used the 600 h&h express and he said because they don't make a 700 h&h express. I guess they finally listened to him 30 years later. LOL
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:27
#221441
Brass + Lead = BULLETS
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:29
#221448
As in the "New Currency"
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:33
#221550
...wrapped in copper, backed by gunpowder.
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 05:34
#221965
especially without gunpowder. i'm also ... brass?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:55
#221523
gunpowder. with that you can get the rest.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:46
#221395
our fiscal situation is too much damaged to help STUPIDs and PIIGS... Everone just grab your towel and DON'T PANIC!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:23
#221435
Run away! The GIIPSIEs are coming!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:27
#221443
Beware the Vogon constructor fleets! (Beware moreso of their poetry.)
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 21:41
#221693
Vogon poetry is, of course, the third worst in the Universe.The second worst is that of the Azgoths of Kria. During a recitation by their poet master Grunthos the Flatulent of his poem “Ode to a Small Lump of Green Putty I Found in My Armpit One Midsummer Morning” four of his audience died of internal haemorrhaging and the president of the Mid-Galactic Arts Nobbling Council survived by gnawing one of his own legs off. Grunthos was reported to have been “disappointed” by the poem’s reception, and was about to embark on a reading of his 12-book epic entitled “My Favourite Bathtime Gurgles” when his own major intestine, in a desperate attempt to save humanity, leapt straight up through his neck and throttled his brain. The very worst poetry of all perished along with its creator, Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Paul Neil Milne Johnstone) of Redbridge, in the destruction of the planet Earth. Vogon poetry is mild by comparison.
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 18:17
#222679
Awesome! We've gone from the demise of Greece and the EU to pro 2A comments to Vogon poetry all in the same post. That is some truly enjoyable reading!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:11
#221420
I know plenty of Germans, mark my words, NO bailout for Greece will be tolerated by the German public. Europe isn't America, people revolt over there when their gov's screw them.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:24
#221436
I hope you're right! If I were German I'd be pissed.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:04
#221482
Because "Europe" is a fiction. It doesn't exist. It is not like the United States, which at least nominally and centrally 'governed' is but one country.
Greeks can attack their politicians, the French can strike and shut the country down. Italians can attack Berlusconi and draw blood.
That's our problem in the United States: Too big too unify to get at the throats of our Royalty and cut through them.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:35
#221551
I wouldn't say too big but rather too complacent and ill informed to foster any change. The ones that do care enough to be angry have no idea why they are so pissed off so they blame socialism and birth certificates for their woes.
Those distractions will solve nothing and that's just how the politicians and Wall Street want it - an ignorant populace chasing after their own tails.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:46
#221510
Steve,
I do not claim to know the majority in Germany but I am fed up with paying for everything with my (German) taxes.
But the government knows how to overrule public opinion here.
I remember the first part of the banking crisis and called my MP's without any success. Frustrated I went to the leftists (Linke) who in my area are considered almost unconstitutional only to hear that bailing out the banks with taxpayer's money was not a big thing.
By now the official EU bailout numbers for German banks are, if memory serves correctly, 50 billion Euro for capital plus 500 billion Euro guarantees for junk paper.
The otherwise slow government got that done within two weeks and afterwards the bailout was not discussed in mainstream media any more.
Predicting bailout or not means reading some politician's mind.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:13
#221536
Thank you for the view from Germany, Gunther. Please continue to share your observations, it is appreciated.
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 11:20
#222168
Gunther, aren't you still paying that Solidarity tax, or are you an Ossie? How is that 20 years of paying for the communists and socialists in East Germany working out for you?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:14
#221537
It's a little different with the American Public. Here, they scream ouch!!!, then do their best to prepare for another inch of penetration.
Americans are masters at rationalizing economic and political sodomy as a form of "love" from their masters.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:21
#221542
A repulsively accurate description.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 20:34
#221638
Well, I HAD to sugar coat it because I thought coming right out and calling it politico-economic ass rape would have been rather distasteful. Don't you think?
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 09:58
#222091
Denninger pretty much has that base covered anyway...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:40
#221310
Don't burn those Drachmas just yet...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:48
#221316
Greece is only 2.5% of the EU economy. Spain and Italy are about 13% each. They are the ones to watch. California and NY are just as broke and are just as large a part of the US economy. The real problem is contagion. Will it spread from one place to the next?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:31
#221450
California legislators and analysts are watching Greece very closely.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:56
#221524
To me this is the key issue. The amount of debt coming on the market from EVERYWHERE, Cities, States, Countries, LBO's, ARM's. People are all so sure US Treasuries are doomed but they are at the end of default risk. Cali, NY, Greece, Portugal, your local friendly LBO firm that has to roll over the debt from the last great deal they executed, you next door neighbor with the balloon ARM due to reset. All these people go tits up before UST.
The CDO sh#$ storm from all this will be awesome to behold.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 21:46
#221698
I agree. I'm forced to have my 401-K in something, so I've chosen the least risky investment possible--- T-Bills. Wish I could put it in something else, but there're no other options. Can't put it into a manipulated stock market, and no commodity funds are available.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:58
#221526
No, the problem is not contagion. The problem is that the whole SYSTEM is sub-prime. If it were healthy, it would not be susecptible.
Lee S.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:12
#221534
Good point...Monday.
The best studies I have seen about the Black Death of the mid-14th century indicate that it followed decades of poor harvests and resulting malnutrition which rendered the population weak and vulnerable.
Will we have a financial "Black Death'?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 20:20
#221628
I heard for months in 2008 that only a percentage of sub-prime mortgages were bad, and that of the total mortgage market, sub-prime was a tiny fraction. Talking heads on CNBC were trotted out to dazzle us with statistics abou tthe MINOR nature of the subprime problem. They were obviously very, very, wrong. The same thing that got us into this last mess is what will be the next unraveling: leverage. For all the talk since the financial nearly collapsed- not a damned thing has been done about excessive, imprudent leverage and speculation. To the contrary, world governments have put more crack into the hands of these addicts.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:49
#221317
nothing to see here, move along. move along.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:58
#221331
Yes. I know. I keep moving and moving.
The more I move the more I see. When does it get better? I haven't seen anything good except that Mass. isn't as rabidly stupid as I thought. One smaller negative.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:50
#221319
Exactly! You can never be more certain of a fact than when it has been officially denied. (See Bruce Krasting's Piece on Paulson. "Fannie and Freddie -- well capitalized, in no danger of failing").
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:04
#221343
what about Geithner saying US will never have problem with our rating?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:16
#221354
What a nonsense statement by Geithner.
What if the US was to announce it needs to borrow another 10 trillion this year, will there still be no rating impact?
What he should have said is that the US government will never act in a way that could put the US credit rating at risk, but of course he can't say that because without the promise of unlimited government pumping multiple asset classes will immediately collapse in price.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:41
#221461
The Ratings agency is OWNED by the Fed......no way USA get's derated.
Just hollow talk, to fool the sheeple.Have to act like their responsible agencies.....to ALL.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 21:19
#221671
It’s obvious Geithner is in the US Treasury, the G-7 and the G-20, Greece and world affairs to take care of Goldman Sachs. If he is no longer a U.S. government official, representative or citizen, why doesn’t the government take away his passport?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:20
#221362
Have you seen Geithner lately on television? Wall street and the CIA and president Clinton were totally screwing Russia over during thier crash. The people running russia said everything is fine the whole time right up till it crashed. Maybe roles are reversed, maybe something more sinister is going on. Maybe accomplished liars are simply spitting out lies like machine gun bullets trying to see which ones still work.
Fiat currency economys crumble at 90 perenct debt to gdp load. We're at 83 percent with 4 trillion of debt off the books and hidden.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:32
#221375
did you see how Summers ran Russia into the ground like Havard....that's the plan, when Geithner gets fired, Summer will be in charge of the post-crash...arrrrrgggg
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:51
#221400
Ah man good point. Hard to see them when they tag team like that. It's like a serial will killer. First they set up the support get things to this point and now they are running around breaking the backs of everything before they set up the new system. I mean geez. Harvard has done more to damage the US than any other institution and they get screwed for it.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:28
#221444
Summers is like an economic WMD. He might end up justifying a UN pre-emptive invasion of the US.
:)
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:49
#221515
why are all the drones in AfPak
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 00:23
#221834
Because the Tea Parties are still 'local'.
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 05:49
#221969
and what is the estimate for three years from now, with fannie's and freddie's positive net worth guaranteed by the treserve and hostage to current real estate prices/mortgage payments?
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 11:31
#222179
Hephasteus, Argentina has been a slow, multi-decade train wreck, and Greece will be too. Amazingly, many Argentinians kept their money and retirements in the bank far too long.
I think the real point here is that as long as you use a bank offering internet banking, a bank run is just a couple of clicks away. The problem is every smart person realizes this, and it won't take much before all that electronic money is looking for guaranteed safety, and once governments start defaulting, there is one clear counterpartyriskless investment: GOLD.
Paulson and Sprott saw this coming, and they will do very well. Switzerland will too.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:34
#221455
This is an example of why the Chinese were laughing at him.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:51
#221321
Sell all bounces - mantra this year
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:26
#221499
+1
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:50
#221516
You know, selling all bounces is the only way to make money and yet almost nobody talks about it.
Nobody ever made a dime by buying a stock. The money is made only when you sell.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:51
#221322
Only logical conclusion. Back in FEB when the chatter was about backstopping banx or shifting their liabilities into soverign,then obviously the conclusion was sooner or later soverign will have the run,and it is only a matter of when and not if. So now the domino principle starts,and once it gets to the US, I think rates will go sky high(or the dollar will go deep down). With all goverments competing now with the private sector,there isn't even a prospect of productive growth in GDP and employment. I think for serious economists who would like to see a growth in a real economy,default is probaly the only option for goverments in those situation. But that has to be coupled with a change to the entire fiscal and monetary policy toward a real growth in production employment,instead of a structure that allows for few parasites to suck the whole economy into a blackhole,in the name of saving 401 k-ers(they havn't even done that)....
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:03
#221531
If only one person remains employed (Larry Summers) in the USA, productivity should skyrocket, keeping inflation expectations firmly anchored -during the Deflationary Depression.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:54
#221325
So I guess we know what happened at the G7 meeting.
Fuck greece. Let's get this IMF takeover of the world rolling.
Ya. We're totally going to pull it off this time.
We're going to rule the world with stupid illusory debt.
Yaaaa!!!
I'm going to stop by the office and print me up a couch made of million dollar bills on my way home!!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:54
#221326
10 Billion does not really sound that bad, could anyone set it in relation to meaningful number? thanks
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:12
#221349
Greek GDP was $357 billion in 2008, so its the equivalent of around $400 billion being withdrawn from the US, or around $80 billion from the UK
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:54
#221404
Which it only took 500 billion to crash US stock market. So maybe the Greece bombings on thier stock exchange a few months back had something to do with this. Their market is crashed monday reguardless.
Am I missing anything?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:16
#221430
I seem to recall the UST dumping $ 100 billion into the IMF recently.
If $10 billion is to be dumped down the Greek debt rat hole, that is the best of the bad solutions ....... for now.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:31
#221449
Meaningful?
Do you have 10 billion (USD or Euro)?
How about 1 billion?
No? Do you have 1/1000 of that amount - i.e. 10 million?
Still no?
Do you personally know anyone who has any of those amounts?
Do you personally know 1000 people who each have 10 million?
US overspending and defense budgets have made the numbers surreal, but they are quite large.
BTW, 10,000,000,000.00
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:09
#221487
Comparing 10 billion to the capital of an individual makes the number look large, agreed.
Comparing 10 billion to the money flowing through our globalized financial system is a relative small piece of the cake. So a meaningful number to relate is indeed quite useful.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:07
#221533
O.K. , then why is JPM's 8o Trillion in derivatives dismissed? Oh, it's notional.
O.K., why is the 1-5 trillion in actual losses ebedded there (so far) dismissed? Because Jamie Dimon is a great banker. He'll make it up in ATM fees.
Lee S.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:25
#221544
Greece isn't the whole global financial system. Not even anywhere remotely close. National population is around 11M people. So this is a shortfall of almost 1000 Euro per person, including children, elderly, indigent etc. I realize that most ZH readers probably can come up with $1000 at the nearest ATM, or at worst during normal banking hours, but that's not true for most people, whether in the US or almost anywhere else (Switzerland, Cayman, etc. excepted). Even in a nice suburb in the US I don't think that you could count on everyone have a spare $1000 right when they're called to produce it.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:37
#221458
$10 Billion and counting.
If you lived in Greece and read these headlines what would you be doing Monday morning?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:15
#221493
Heading for the beach on Rhodos.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:56
#221327
I am sure that Goldman and the Greeks will put their collective shoulders to the wheels of commerce and sort this problem - if they don't people will be taking the Piis out of my nation and others
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:24
#221366
Goldman Sachs had its tentacle into the Greek government with "complex financial instruments" going back to at least 2002. Thanks to asdf for link to "Goldman Sachs helped Greece in debt Cosmetics" #220388
http://translate.google.de/translate?u=http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,676346,00.html&sl=de&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8
The Greek government still has not wised up to the perils of doing business with GS. Excerpts from Financial Times Jan 28, 2010.
"Goldman plays key role in Greece rescue"
"A team from Goldman Sachs was in Athens on Thursday shepherding representatives of Paulson, the US hedge fund, around meetings with local bankers, economists and analysts... Last year it took George Papaconstantinou, the finance minister, on his first roadshow to London and Frankfurt, along with Deutsche Bank. Earlier this week the bank was one of the joint-lead managers on Greece’s sale of an €8bn (£7bn, $11bn) government bond..."
"Mr Papaconstantinou confirmed earlier this week to the FT that he would in the next few weeks go on an investors’ roadshow to Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong in order to generate interest in Greek government bonds. It is expected that as with the previous European trip, Goldman would be taking a leading role in organising this roadshow, according to investment circles in Greece.
"JPMorgan has been important in the past but is being shunned by the new government over a controversy centred on the sale of a structured bond in 2007 to a Greek pension fund, under the previous conservative government. JPMorgan denied any wrongdoing and repaid the funds. The socialist government last week announced it was reopening an investigation into the scandal.
"Goldman’s main source of income in Greece is from the Hellenic republic’s borrowing operation, to which it has access as one of 15 Greek and foreign banks that act as market-makers. “They’re very active in the bond swaps market, which is extremely lucrative,” said the fund manager. It also regularly advises NBG, the country’s biggest commercial lender."
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/53bbbd40-0c42-11df-8b81-00144feabdc0.html
This hilarious howler quote is also from the FT article:
“Goldman pretty much has taken a leading role on advising Greece at the moment,” said a Greek economic consultant. “Their competitive advantage is that they are smart guys and come up with good ideas. That certainly helps in a crisis like now,” the consultant said."
With "smart" friends with "good ideas" like Goldman Sachs, who needs enemies?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:41
#221386
and I thought that Taibbi quote "The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money..." was a bit hyperbolic....I was wrong...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:10
#221419
Goldman is so fucked...all their silver-tongued BS will come back to haunt them when things start to unravel more and more. They will have enemies stacked in line waiting to get revenge.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:28
#221547
not that they don't deserve it, but i don't see a scenario where justice prevails here. when the smoke clears there will be the haves, and the have nots, and those who run GS will certainly number among the haves.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 21:04
#221662
Definitely, in much the same way that the Israelis simply forgave all the Nazis who escaped prosecution by the allies, and let them live their lives quietly and in peace, anywhere in the world that they might choose to hide.
Errr, I was having a dream about a sort of post-collapse investigatory service.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:36
#221507
I find it strange that a truth seeking blog like Zero Hedge has not covered the details in the "Der Spiegel" article...
It makes me think of "the curious incident of the dog in the nighttime"
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:11
#221535
Yeah, Goldman's cohorts are "fixing" Wisconsin's pension fund shortfall by leveraging up as we speak. Surely they can save Greece as well. Except their job is not to save anything, it is to make money for themselves. Nothing wrong with that, just good to know.
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 11:37
#222191
Question: Who wrote all the CDS's on those Greek sovereign bond, AIG, JPM, or perhaps GS? Will uncle sugar step in an cover all these CDS at 100%..
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 14:59
#221334
Greece/EU mess is just a diversion from the mess in the UK/ US. The UK is getting out of QE and in order for bond yields to stay low, a diversion/mini crash was needed. A similar crash/diversion will be needed as the US gets ready to refi its 1.6T of debt by end of March !!!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:02
#221340
yes GS tried to get the Chinese to buy greek debt - not sure how much success they had though.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:25
#221367
I am going to keep this relatively simple.
Within the week: SnP 1110-ish
By early to mid next week: SnP 980-ish
Within 2-3 weeks: SnP 950.
Then a bounce and Leo can again tout liquidity, recovery, and so forth.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:44
#221393
"...Then a bounce and Leo can again tout liquidity, recovery, and so forth...."
pls, JC, don't feed the pets...
that is, unless they are white scruffy mutts
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:50
#221401
Nice. Well that little bounce to maybe 1050 will be followed by, well, you know.
Allright enough with the table talk:)
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:28
#221442
So are these based on some sort of logic or technical analysis, or did you pull these numbers out of your hindquarters?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:50
#221469
I mean, if I really knew, I wouldn't be posting here. But those are estimates based on TA and scale-ups of the prior moves.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:39
#221553
Ah! That would be "I pulled them out of my ass," then.
Here's an idea: if you really think that sort of "analysis" has any validity, license a copy of TradeStation and write a little EasyLanguage script to do the same kind of TA and scale-ups of prior moves on an index ETF like SPY.
Then backtest it and TradeStation will precisely quantify your fail for you, and hopefully, you will avoid flinging such turd-coated numbers onto these boards in the future.
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 05:59
#221971
that's a high standard you set.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:01
#221479
So are these based on some sort of logic or technical analysis, or did you pull these numbers out of your hindquarters
sounds like what the elliot wave folks have on for wave 3 of 1 of P3. most have 3 wave to 980ish, with wave 5 to mid 800s.
also, a 50% mean reversion would be low 900s.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:22
#221496
The mid 800's number seems a bit deep to me for this move, although this latest plunge to 1046 was surprising. Even given that, I'd be suprised to see us dip below low to mid 900's near term. The folks at EW always have uber-bearish targets, but I am sticking with my initial guestimates.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:19
#221539
the move to mid 800s would (will?) take a bit as there is a 4 retracement up after the 3 down. it's another tool to use and I find it to be a helpful one for my trading. i like all the classical TA as well, particularly in markets where, according to my view of the world, the market is disconnected from fundamentals and is looking out into the future no more than, say, a 15 minute chart versus the old cliched standby "4-6 months" down the road....seems to me once we look towards later spring into summer, there is uncertainty and we know how that plays.
always enjoy your insights John...thanks.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:43
#221556
977-990
target by 2/18
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 23:14
#221765
It's really tough to call a market which is being primed on artificial stimulus. You're always being out-guessed by the the next government press release or favor being called in. Hard to factor those kinds of things into your modeling.
I can honestly see why people are getting at least part of their portfolios into PMs and commodities at this point, despite the drubbing they're probably going to take in the short term - it's hard to get an accurate reading on where other investments are going in a marketplace like this.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:50
#221368
I cannot think of an analogy in the recent history of currency/financial crises.
Normally it is capital flight that seals the doom of a single currency peg when the central bank is depleted of its fx reserves.
But in this case the capital flight is from a single player in a currency union...
the effect here is to further weaken the Greek economy, raise the cost of a "bailout" and put greater pressure on a devaluation (departure from Euro).
Roubini and Das 3 days ago:
How to Avoid a Greek Tragedy in Europe By Nouriel Roubini and Arnab Das 2/3/2010 | Last Updated
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Greece is the lynchpin of eurozone sovereign risk. We advise going flat for now.
Greece is the debt crisis of the moment, but its problems are far from unique. On their resolution rides the fate of Greece's neighbors, the eurozone and perhaps the EU itself. Greece, like the rest of the PIGS, has an excessive public debt and fiscal deficit and is uncompetitive. A sovereign debt restructuring that reduces both the debt stock and interest burden and a substantial real exchange rate devaluation would clean up the national balance sheet, restore competitiveness and reinvigorate growth. A real devaluation can only be achieved via structural reforms and productivity gains over time; an instant devaluation can only be achieved by exiting the euro, which would require debt default or re-denomination.
Greece by itself may not be systemically important, but Spain and Italy certainly are, so a disorderly resolution of Greece’s crisis would be catastrophic for the eurozone. A debt reduction and/or devaluation would almost certainly tip the Greek financial system over the brink, in addition to sharply accelerating contagion to Portugal, Italy and Spain, dramatically raising the risk that the eurozone would splinter. We therefore expect the crisis to play out according to a well-worn script, with important twists ultimately averting tragedy. The EU and ECB will demand further and more credible fiscal adjustment. Once an adequate pound of flesh is delivered, there may well be exceptional intra-EU bilateral or multilateral lending and monitoring to restore market confidence. We feel that the chances of success in even a very strong fiscal and structural adjustment program would be significantly enhanced by an overwhelming show of support from the EU and IMF. The shock and awe of a massive war chest of liquidity and fiscal reserves, as in the IMF mega-programs of the 1990s and 2009, would help overcome the risk of further market pressures during a potentially long and difficult adjustment process.
The market implications: We advise going flat Greece, pending further clarification of fiscal adjustment and financing plans. The macro challenges are daunting and will take much time and effort to solve, pointing to further rises in CDS and bond spreads, supporting an argument for real money to sell bonds and leveraged money to buy protection or go short. But the rising chance of exceptional fiscal cuts, buttressed by bilateral or multilateral financing, could create a short squeeze any time. Spreads may not yet have peaked, but it is prudent to at least begin covering shorts, though the fundamentals argue against outright longs and selling protection just yet.
HOW TO AVOID A GREEK TRAGEDY IN EUROPE
Financial Armageddon and another Great Depression may have been averted, but the crisis is far from over. Money is now almost free, but credit is tight, and contagion is spreading to all highly leveraged, weak links in the global economy, one by one: mortgage-ridden households (particularly in the U.S., UK, Iceland, Spain, Ireland and Central and Eastern Europe); banks (in the U.S., EU, Iceland and Russia/CIS); quasi-sovereigns (like Dubai World and Ukraine’s Naftogaz); and now sovereigns with large fiscal deficits and heavy current or future public debt burdens (currently Greece and next probably other trouble spots in the eurozone). Around the corner, perhaps sovereigns that enjoy independent monetary policy, like Japan, the United Kingdom and even the United States, may be susceptible. Eventually, all these countries will have to adjust their budgets or face the bond market vigilantes.
Greece has long been an accident waiting to happen, with its heavy public debt and lack of competitiveness. A train wreck is imminent because the budget deficit is 3.5 times larger than previously claimed, and the markets doubt Greece’s resolve. Fiscal incontinence and uncompetitiveness are interlinked across what was known as "Club Med" in the go-go years and is now dubbed "the PIGS"–Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain. Euro accession and bull-market "convergence trades" pushed their bond yields toward those of German bunds. The ensuing credit boom supported consumption but papered over rapidly rising wages, which far exceeded productivity growth and therefore boosted unit labor costs. The PIGS was priced out of traditional export markets by strong competition from lower-cost emerging markets, like Turkey and Asia. Excessive bureaucracy and structural rigidities in labor, product and service markets discouraged investment in high-value-added sectors, despite wages well below the EU average. The resulting noxious mix of large current account and budget deficits boosted foreign debt. The last straw–dramatic euro appreciation in 2008-09–hindered recovery, compounding fiscal and competitive challenges.
Charts 1 and 2: When PIGS Fly: Soaring Real Exchange Rates, Rising Foreign Debt
Source: AMECO database, RGE Calculations
Source: AMECO database, RGE Calculations
Thus, Greece and the other PIGS countries face difficult choices as bond yields rise:
Plan A would restore solidarity with other members who are adjusting, improve the rhetoric of the ECB and key member states and bring Greek spreads back down to earth. Plan A is working in Ireland, where spreads exploded as public debt ballooned to save its banks and then shrank after public spending was cut 20%. But Plan A is no cakewalk: Portugal has been deflating to boost competitiveness for a decade, a cautionary tale against gradualism. The harsh medicine of Plan A is best ingested quickly and deeply, rather than in half measures.
Charts 3 and 4: When PIGS Fly: Soaring Government Bond Yield and CDS Spreads
Source: Bloomberg
Source: Bloomberg
Plan A would benefit from an IMF program. In a Europe-only plan, the European Commission would monitor adjustment, and the ECB would lend. Neither has imposed conditionality on members (only applicants with IMF/World Bank programs). During implementation, Greece may need financing, and markets will demand checkpoints, not just sign-offs by interested parties. After all, credible adjustment programs have been undermined by inadequate political commitment and financing. Greece’s fiscal history is far less reassuring than Ireland’s, and EU-only backing may look like a bailout, given the risks to Europe of failure. Charts 5 and 6: When PIGS Fly: Soaring Fiscal Deficits and Public Debt
Source: AMECO database, RGE Calculations
Source: AMECO database, RGE Calculations
Europe has so far ruled out IMF involvement because it would signal weakness, but exploding spreads reflect perceptions of weakness that may precipitate a self-fulfilling run on Greek public debt and banks. We interpret news reports of intra-EU financing plans, an IMF program and even bilateral lending by China as trial balloons, signals and feelers to test market and political reactions to different avenues for financial assistance. Our assessment is that Greece is starting to think about the need for official financing but is not ready to take the plunge, given the optics. But we believe the onset of a refinancing crisis would trigger ECB intervention and perhaps multilateral European support through the European Investment Bank or other routes, to provide time for Plan A and contain the collateral damage to the rest of the PIGS.
Furthermore, we believe an IMF plan for Greece would be available for the asking, if Greece were to make a credible commitment to the required fiscal and structural conditionality. There are technical constraints: Most IMF programs are in the form of exceptional balance of payments financing with associated targets and constraints on central bank balance sheets. In this case, since Greece has ceded monetary policy to the supranational ECB, a traditional IMF program would not work. But there are alternatives. There could be a "Staff-Monitored Program" (SMP) in the context of an EU-financed program, with the IMF providing surveillance and monitoring and perhaps even designing conditionality. Though the IMF has tended to shy away from SMPs in recent decades, these extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. An IMF-financed program could even be designed with direct fiscal support; after all, there have been IMF programs with direct or implicit fiscal financing for Russia, Ukraine, Turkey and Brazil. At any rate, an IMF program would effectively avoid the potential moral hazard of an EU-only program.
Plan A would be significantly strengthened by an overwhelming show of force, in the form of a large war chest of liquidity and fiscal reserve buffers. Gross fiscal financing needs are an estimated 54 billion euros for 2010 alone, and the fiscal and structural adjustment programs will take years to improve competitiveness and reduce public debt. The immediate confirmation that debt sustainability and solvency are being restored will show up in cash bond and CDS spreads. Spreads are liable to come in sharply if the adjustment program is adequately or over-financed, compelling short-covering rather than raising periodic doubts about whether the adjustment will be adequate or subject to tests in the markets again and again. Hence, the best version of Plan A would be a compelling commitment to adjustment up front, combined with a strong financing package.
Plan B would obviate indirect ECB support for Greek government bonds via repos or outright secondary market purchases. Greece’s BBB+ sovereign rating would fall below the ECB’s BBB- rating floor for open-market operations. This limit, already at the threshold of junk, will revert to A- by 2011, and the ECB rightly has ruled out extensions or exceptions.
Plan B would resurrect the historical specter that no currency union has survived without a fiscal and political union. The contrast between the eurozone and the United States would become ever starker: Many states are in a fiscal crisis, but U.S. traditions of fiscal federalism enable local problems to be solved at the federal level. Plus, a chapter of the bankruptcy code is devoted to sub-federal governments, in case transfers fail to do the trick. The eurozone lacks such burden-sharing mechanisms, so bond market vigilantes are turning their sights to other highly indebted sovereigns, even as Greece remains under fire.
The other PIGS countries' stories are different in degree and composition but not in principle: All are highly leveraged, the fundamental source of financial contagion. Spain, like Ireland, has a massive contingent public liability in its banking sector, arising from mortgage debt. Its growth model–residential construction driven by a housing price boom, underpinned by mortgages–is defunct. Also similarly, Spain needs fiscal consolidation and structural reform to restore debt sustainability, reinvigorate growth and reduce its 20% unemployment rate. Italy’s government is highly leveraged, so it too must cut the budget and regain competitiveness against the U.S. and dollar-pegged exporters. Portugal urgently needs structural reform to restore economic dynamism and fiscal health.
Greece, of course, is a microstate, whose GDP is only 3% of eurozone GDP, and whose public debt is de minimis relative to eurozone public debt. However, none of the many legs down in this global financial and economic crisis was triggered by the size of the imbalances in question. After all, Iceland, with only 300,000 people, is a microstate par excellence. Subprime debt was only a fraction of outstanding U.S. mortgage debt. Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers hardly deployed the largest bank balance sheets. Rather, it was the interconnectedness of highly leveraged entities and the implications of their loss of market access for larger entities that blew up entire national and regional financial systems and, ultimately, the global financial and trading systems, precipitating the first globally synchronized recession in modern history. If Greece cannot refinance itself, then it will be only a matter of time before contagion, already starting to infect the rest of the PIGS, hits Spain, perhaps taking down Portugal en route. In no time, the integrity of the eurozone would be threatened, perhaps along with the stability of the European Union.
Greece, then, is the frontline of the battle to keep the PIGS on the straight and narrow that EMU membership demands. The political commitment to the eurozone of every country that has come under the gun is unwavering: Witness Ireland’s deep budget cuts, Portugal’s painful deflation and the sharp adjustments of aspirants like Latvia and Hungary. Fiscal and structural adjustment, along with exceptional financing, whether intra-EU, bilateral or multilateral, can help win this battle.
But the war is about the survival of the EMU itself. Lack of political and fiscal union and limited labor mobility amid free capital movement make such adjustments critical to the long-term viability of the eurozone. Ideally, to give teeth to no-bailout clauses, formal rules for fiscal burden-sharing should be developed, such as debt restructuring mechanisms for eurozone sovereigns. Otherwise, doubts about EMU sustainability will come back to haunt Europe in every economic downturn or financial crisis. And sooner or later, these doubts will be validated.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:31
#221548
Can you imagine if Turkey was a member of this EMU club?!?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:28
#221370
thith ith thparta!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:01
#221480
+++100
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:22
#221495
keyser soze?? oh no! another usual suspect...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:29
#221371
seems an overwhelming bunch of you guys are short biased or market crash oriented, like a bunch of mind numbed robots. no different than perma bulls. here is what will happen: the worlds governments have too much on the line to recrash like 2008. wake up guys.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 23:28
#221786
If you run the numbers, historically, it's just a mattter of time before the governments involved run out of stimulus/bailout bullets and the confidence game is up. Then what?
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 02:16
#221910
you with your logic and reality. pssshh.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:29
#221372
Now it's the politics of de facto sovereign debt default. Look what the Administration did to GM bondholders. That's the template for what happens now. Why bother with de jure sovereign debt default when you can just rig something? The point is, this is the next step in Mellonesque liquidation. Along with collapse of the supply chain of course--to which no one is paying attention.
As long as the true unemployment rate among Americans with a Bachelor's degree or higher is under 40%, any lie must and will be told. Why? Because that's what Americans with a Bachelor's degree or higher, DEMAND be done.
Remember what the bourgeois American wants: no problems and no solutions. Take care of it.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:31
#221373
I see a lot of post saying sell all bounces, the markets going down, ect. ect. Isn't it true that when I'm selling stocks I'm buying something else... bonds, cash, ect. what should I be buying if I'm selling stocks? U.S. dollars? I don't think so... The problem is that there are very few places to hide... There are risks everywhere. I would like some opinions on where we should be putting our money?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:42
#221388
The beauty of a collapse...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:48
#221399
cash for now, eventually no paper nothing, instead physical things that people need for everyday, and those things will probably deflate too...yeah, I know not very liquid and you probably have a lot more money to make safe than I, all I need to do is cash out my life savings and buy a few cases of whiskey...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 20:34
#221636
Hoard nickels and pennies. If the face value drops to zero, you still have a hoard of copper and nickel.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:56
#221475
i had the same questions. i loaned my friend $100,000. to buy grapes with last fall to do his crush. he pays me 8% a month. helping local farmers, colorado agriculture reputation. he is producing a product made in america. he could never of gotten a small business loan. but this is what needs to happen and be supported.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:52
#221518
good man.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 19:02
#221570
"a friend" ." 8% a month" are you sure. sounds like vampire squid 2.0 .
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 19:14
#221575
it was his idea. i don't know anything about interest rates. are you implying that is high?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:11
#221489
Storing wealth over the longterm in anything other than useful tangible resources is starting to look like a rather quaint idea. It will either diluted, taxed, or outright confiscated. Perhaps spending a chunk of it might be more worthwhile. You know, spend it while you got it. Take the vacation of your dreams while you still can.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 20:21
#221629
silver is a bargain, right now. the big commercials, dumped a lot of contracts this last week. take physical possesion. do you really think silver is worth less, than it was a year ago? do you really think the dollar is worth more? the demand for silver, exceeds supply, every year, since 1945. we use it up, it's not like gold, and it is getting harder to take delivery of physical. coin shops get $5 over spot, for an oz, and they run out all the time, theres not enough silver, for every person, to have just one oz. don't let the market, and the media, cloud clear thinking. silver is an anchor, in a storm. every fiat currency in history, has eventually failed, because paper, is a perception, backed by a political promise, and we know how good those have proven to be.
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 04:27
#221944
Toilet paper and whiskey. The new currency.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:32
#221376
The population of Greece is about 11 million.
So that's the equivalent of nearly 300 Billion to the US.
Not insignificant.
The real issue here is thew Germans. They are committed to the EU, up to a point. If they have to prop up a bunch of failed states, they would be under pressure to pull out. Unless of course they can annex them all. Oops, they tried that in 1942 didn't they?
Anyway, I'm betting there's a basement FULL of "New Deutsch Marks" that's ready and waiting.
BTW: I have heard the each Euro note has a serial number identifying the country of origin. Obviously, their coins are country specific. I have also heard that some people hoard just the German Euro notes.
What would happen in a default? Do the Greek notes and coins become worth less? Could the populace to decide Greece's fate by rejecting their euros in exchange? Could the banks start rejecting Greek euros? Does it even mean anything?
Just a thought.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:32
#221452
The first letter of each serial number of the 500 Euro note from Germany is always "X" (probably the other denominations as well, but I do not know for sure).
There are some who only want the X if they are hanging on to them (for a future vacation, etc.).
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 19:01
#221569
What the heck are you talking about? A Euro is a euro no matter which EU member country your in. They are not country specific. Swiss Francs another story they don't take euro in Switzerland.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:33
#221377
"(problem)people who are not being taxed properly"
Yeah........
Better to be a little Greek sailboat unmoored from your taxation, 'finance minister'.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 20:57
#221381
Stephen Colbert’s video dialog with Elliot Spitzer this past week–amidst much laughter and applause—with Colbert playing devil’s advocate shines a bit of light, IMO, on the world’s problem (my transcription):
Colbert: Let’s talk about the thing you know about, malfeasance in our banking system. What’s happening right now that I and the great unwashed masses that I love should be angry about?
Elliot: Everything. Absolutely everything! What’s happening is that we are rebuilding the system exacly as it was before. The same banks, the major investment banks, have taken tens, hundreds of billions of dollars of your money, and taxpayer money, and are now doing exactly as they did with it before-- gambling with it, taking it out with bonuses and not doing what they should be doing which is investing in the American economy.
C: We’re not going to go through regulation are we?
E: Oh I certainly hope not. We wouldn’t want to regulate an industry that just destroyed our economy. That’d be terrible!
C: But we’ve just gotten the banks back on their feet. It’s a very delicate time in the market right now, Elliot.
E: It is not delicate at all!
C: It is absolutely delicate. You saw the bubble burst.
E: That’s right, we wouldn’t want that to happen again.
C: No, just don’t even talk about the bubble!
E: The news is the same people who inflated the bubble in the first place are back in charge again and the same people running the banks who destroyed our economy are still there.
C: Then all we need to do is get in front of the bubble, make our investments, get out clean before it bursts again, then my friend, I’ve got mine, Jack!
E: And when I know when to do that, I’ll call you first so we can invest together… The real problem is that the White House until last week had not even begun to do what was critically necessary to restructure our financial service sector.
C: Why didn’t he do it when he had 60 votes?
E: That is the question! Many people were begging him to do it. And I will say very clearly, the team of Summers and Geithner has been, in my view, an abject failure because what they have done is take all the money and give it right back to the banks without demanding that the banks change the way they do business.
C: Why shouldn’t the banks get that money? Doesn’t everything in our economy depend on the banks? Loans… all the credit loans go through the banks. Aren’t they the lynchpin? Shouldn’t they get anything they want?
E: Are you running for office?
C: Are you? (cheers)
E: I don’t get into that question (laughter and applause). What we need to do is get money back to the businesses that will invest instead of giving it to the banks so they can play games in a casino economy. And precisely what Paul Volcker proposed we do is what we should do: We just constrain their behavior and say if you get bailout money, if you get guaranteed access to federal credit, which is what they have now, then you must lend that money, not get involved in proprietary trading and the casino economy.
C: I got a friend, where I live in an undisclosed New York area. I’m at his Christmas party. He says to me, Fine fine, you wanna tax the banks, fine! I won’t use my driver, I won’t have the maid come over, I won’t go down in front of the restaurant. You’ll watch this economy crumble when guys like me don’t spend money out! Let’s get to a drink, let’s go…
E: The reality is that these bankers created a system, a bubble that collapsed, leaving us with no net job growth, flat median family income, we have exported our manufacturing sector, we are the largest debtor nation in the world. The paradigm and the entire economy they believe in was fictitious. It was razzle dazzle, and we are now back on our heels and the president of the United States needs to do go China, to the high school students, asking for collateral. We are borrowing from China to keep ourselves going and this is the economy they created!
C: Last question. Ben Bernanke, who oversaw the collapse of not only the United States but pretty much the entire world financial system and brought our economy to its knees, has been reappointed as head of the Fed. Doesn’t this give you hope of being re-elected governor of New York? Because as I remind you, he screwed everybody! (laughter and cheers)
E: I just became a big fan of Ben Bernanke! (laughter)
http://economicedge.blogspot.com/
“The money power preys upon the Nation in times of peace and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces as public enemies, all who question its methods, or throw light upon its crimes.” William Jennings Bryan
And that’s why Elliot’s gone.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:38
#221382
Burn it--burn it all................
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:38
#221384
greek rhapsody is diversion from the UK & USA's woes - UK just getting out of QE wants to make it appear as if "All Is Well" and US wants to quietly refi 1.6T of debt hence an engineered crash in equities.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:40
#221385
Burn it......burn it all
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:44
#221390
Greece should have just stuck to ouzo, olive oil and allowing tourist to screw on their beaches.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:35
#221505
Bingo. I think they will do it again.
Default. Roll out the Drachma. Devalue and start over.
Go back to farming, fishing and sell vitamin D (e.g. Sun and feta cheese) to the Northern Europeans.
If they are still only 11 million people, they must have forgotten how it's done. They either need to watch the tourists doing it or ask the females to turn over. (Pun)
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 23:35
#221792
Naw. I bet they still remember how to screw on the beaches.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:44
#221392
20% earning more than US$140k? I don't believe that for a moment. That's mathematically impossible in a place with only a $30k/annum per capita GDP. (according to Wikipedia).
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:38
#221508
It is true. The underground economy is twice as much as the official GDP.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:47
#221396
The population of Greece is about 11 million. So that's the equivalent of nearly $300 Billion to the US. Not insignificant. The real issue here is the Germans. They are committed to the EU, up to a point. If they have to prop up a bunch of failed states, they would be under pressure to pull out. Unless of course they can annex them all. Oops, they tried that in 1942, didn't they? Anyway, I'm betting there's a basement FULL of "New Deutsch Marks" that's ready and waiting, just in case. BTW: I have heard the each Euro note has a serial number identifying the country of origin. Obviously, their coins are country specific. I have also heard that some people hoard just the German Euro notes. What would happen in a default? Do the Greek notes and coins become worth less? Could the populace to decide Greece's fate by rejecting their euros in exchange? Could the banks start rejecting Greek euros? Does it even mean anything? Just a thought.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:00
#221411
no it doesnt mean anything but the place of production.
the EU and Euro-Zone has to collapse. The DM could be reborn as an strong alternative to other weakening currencies. Or lets just go out to the Revolution 0.2010
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:47
#221397
Some hysteria around here. The article references money that "MAY" have come out of Greece based on what some analyst "heard". And there is no mention of what type of money this is other than money belong to "super wealthy investors". It could be their cash in the local banks, which is of course bad for those banks but what affect does this have on the sovereign's ability to meet its maturities? It's not like this was 10bn taken out of the government coffers.
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 04:33
#221948
Please don't confuse people with the facts.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:57
#221405
"What is ironic is the previously discussed pervasive tax fraud in the country where very few resident actually declare their true income."
You could at the very least have put "tax fraud" in inverted commas. One persons tax fraud is anothers inherent right to earn and keep personal property. How long, in any country, does an individual retain an obligation to participate in confiscatory policies and state initiated financial and intergenerational fraud. The Sheeple keep mouthing the mantra that the evaders must be punished and the State keeps pushing down their throats the fodder of "fair shares and proportionate pain".
Everyone should ask themselves at what point would they change their personal stance? ...a Greek situation, a Venezuala situation , a Zimbabwe situation.....its not IF , just WHEN.
Greece has had more than its share of discordant politics, and I dont think there is enough Nationalist sentiment to hold the society together ( consider the implications of this factor for China and US when perhaps they hit the wall one day ? ). In such circumstances, wouldnt YOU take your money out? This is human nature, and the behavioural aspects will be part of how the entire debt problem evolves ( and note I didnt say "gets resolved" )
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:24
#221498
Your point is excellent. One persons tax fraud is anothers inherent right to earn and keep personal property. How long, in any country, does an individual retain an obligation to participate in confiscatory policies and state initiated financial and intergenerational fraud. This is the quote for these times.
It depends to whom you are talking on whether taxation is fair. There’s nothing worse than a tax evader, but, then, you have governments and dealers in money who are stealing, i.e., “taxing,” for private gain your labors, and your money. Frederic Bastiat called it “legal plunder.”
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 15:58
#221406
Once the squid latches onto you it's all over but the dying:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcQDO9gDRqg&feature=related
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:03
#221410
Moody's:
see link for chart of Euro Misery Index:
http://www.researchrecap.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Misery-Index.gif
As the global economic recovery attains a more solid footing, 2010 will at best see a ?normalization and at worst a severe tightening in government financing conditions. Long-term interest rates may increase more rapidly than expected because of an over-reaction to economic news, which we believe will be mildly positive overall. Moreover, the slow unwinding of quantitative easing will accelerate this credit repricing process.
A further theme identified by Moody’s is that the crisis has once again revealed the dangers of financial globalization for emerging markets — namely, the upside of the recurrence of asset price inflation after the downside of precipitous outflows of capital. However, the arsenal of policy levers has not expanded.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:09
#221418
the unemployment figures of italy dont represent the reality in any way. Italy has more secrets than china with all the corruption and total media control going on there.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:02
#221412
Greece is a pos country run by a few kleptocrats to the detriment of everyone else. The sooner it gets kicked out of the EU the better.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:12
#221424
damn them rich people, how dare they learn how to use international banking
fwiw, during the meltdown, thru my broker I found out I could whip my money around in a half hour, getting way way below fdic limits in as many banks as i liked, i took him too task, i'd asked the same question six month earlier, yeah, i know they had insurance up to 10 or 50 million a portfolio, but, i felt safer in numbers
when i asked around no one really knew they could do this, or even thought of it
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 20:35
#221639
How much maoney are you going to get when the US dollar is cancelled and a new script is issued with a 100k limit on exchange of old script per person? There is no fool proof hiding spot, not your mattress or multiple bank accounts.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:14
#221427
Just a little taste of what is to come. By Aug/Sept of this year, Greece will seem like just a tiny canary in retrospect.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:15
#221428
Drachma Zimbabwe Delphi.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:15
#221429
Investors run? well, not scaring enough. Depositors run? Boom, greece is done.
Greece has no power of printing Euro, no way of making the depositor whole. The collapse of Greek government bonds means the collapse of the greek banking system. Depositors in the greek banking will be wiped out immediately.
Greek people better run with their Euro money now and fast before it's too late. Just like the union ran the GM into the ground, the greek union will run the greece into the ground, given its democracy system.
Soon, the US will follow, thanks to the same government union and the democracy system initially invented by Greek. Throwing the US into the Pigs and suddenly you got U.Piigs. or PiigsUS.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:17
#221431
"some 20% of Greeks are believed to earn more than €100,000 annually"
I seriously doubt that. Average income of a person in Greece is about 650-800 €/month, less than 10K €/year. A median annual salary for a IT project manager is about 33K €. And now we should believe 20% of the Greek make 100K+ and are in fact euro millionaires? No way.
Just by walking on a street you'll see Greece is far poorer than, say, Sweden or Denmark, and in those countries 20% of people certainly don't earn 100K+ annually. There are wealthy people in Greece, but not to THAT extent.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:22
#221434
I'll take "OECD" for $200, Alex.
How much is involved in "governments decid[ing] to backstop entire financial industries residing within their territory"?
What is $11 Trillion in "Funny Money"?
Financial institutions received $1.56 trillion in capital injections, $5.21 trillion for asset purchases and guarantees and $4.64 trillion in debt guarantees, according to a study published last month by the Paris-based OECD.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aKTCbaJVCvQY&pos=7
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:26
#221439
"We don't need no stinking IMF": German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble to world.
Excerpts from WSJ online, Feb 6 2010.
"European members of the Group of Seven nations told their counterparts that budget problems in Greece are "no matter" for the International Monetary Fund, German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said Saturday. Speaking to reporters at the end of a meeting with top G-7 financial officials, Schaeuble said there was "no doubt" that the euro-zone members oppose any outside involvement in helping Greece to solve its problems."
Euroland message to world: it's nobody's business but us Euros. Us Euros are not ragging on California, so butt out of our business on Greece.
Excerpts from WSJ online, Feb 6 2010.
"All our partners outside the euro zone have the firm impression that the Europeans will solve the problem and can deal with it and that we are aware of the problem," Schaeuble said. "But we have strongly and unanimously refused to discuss internal problems." To make that point, he added that Europe isn't discussing problems occurring in the U.S. state of California either."
Springtime for Greeceland and Germany. We're moving to a faster pace: German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble to world.
"Schaeuble also said that he has invited his counterparts to a conference on financial reform in Berlin on May 20 with the goal of preparing for the June Group of 20 summit in Toronto. "Several different proposals have been proposed over the past months from different countries," Schaeuble said. "But actually, the goal must be that we will come to a joint solution...Until the G-20 summit in Toronto, we must find a solution."
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100206-700683.html?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:45
#221464
I'll take a handwritten IOU from a greek citizen over anything the IMF would give as a promisory note.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:49
#221468
They seem to be conveniently forgetting that the relationship between California and the federal government of the US is very different than that between Greece and the EU.
The US can send the National Guard when California breaks out in riots. What will Europe send to Greece?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:57
#221476
The first problem will be the strikes by the unions, probably over pension funds.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-01-27/california-teachers-pension-fund-42-6-billion-short-update1-.html
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:23
#221497
"The US can send the National Guard when California breaks out in riots. What will Europe send to Greece?"
Well, if history is our guide- they'll ask for the US to send troops.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 23:21
#221779
1948, just when we were deciding to 'play dirty like those Europeans' and keep the spies after WWII.
They never left Greece.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:29
#221446
Good, defaults are good, evolution.
Screw the Rich, Banking class.
Storm the Bastile.
Domestic cells verses CIA created.
Fight club, need uniforms on your side, otherwise, civil war.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:32
#221451
pooplagrande is correct.
This business with Greece/Dubia is all small change.
The real main event is coming later this year.
August/September.
Sounds about right.
-MobBarleyCorn
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:51
#221472
Hank Paulson Redux
“We have control of the ship, we have a plan,” said María Teresa Fernández de la Vega, Spain’s deputy premier, hours after José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, socialist prime minister, told a US audience in Washington: “Spain has a strong and solid financial system.”
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f3a7fc9a-1270-11df-a611-00144feab49a.html?ncli...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 16:56
#221474
The day the world as we knew it ended was "The Last Day of Lehman."
This disaster and disasters to come, now in process, are all based in spreads with one or more legs in OTC derivatives.
History will forget it, but OTC derivatives have already, in the final analysis, killed as many people as wars have.
Greece is no different than Iceland. Eventually the US dollar will come under the same pressure, using 40 states as the Achilles heel to kill the dollar.
Don’t for a moment assume the dollar has some granted immunity. It simply stands in line awaiting its selection while short positions in state debt are being placed. Jim sinclair
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:00
#221528
by jsmineset.com
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:00
#221478
"They're Baaack"
Flow data shows an abrupt withdrawal of German and Asian capital from Club Med debt markets. The EU's refusal to offer Greece anything beyond stern words and a one-month deadline for harsher austerity – while admirable in one sense – is to misjudge how fast confidence is ebbing. Greece's drama has already metastasised into a wider systemic crisis. The world risks a replay of the Lehman collapse if this runs unchecked, this time involving sovereign dominoes,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/718273...
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 18:44
#221517
On one of those crisis weekends in 2008 I think it might be Hank Paulson who said, "We need to get this resolved before the Asian markets open on Sunday."
Don't know if its "git er done" before opening of the Asian markets or the European market this time, but my guess is there are a lot frantic phone calls among the Eurolanders and with rest of world bankers going on Sunday night. I would be surprised if there was no annoucement, however much a band-aid, before European markets open.
It seems we may be entering a 2008-like period of frantic weekends with no rest for the wicked.
Update: Geithner will be unable to join in tonight's frantic phone calls. On Saturday at the G7 gang meeting in the frozen Canadian Arctic, Timmy Geithner took a triple-dog-dare (something about triple A rating of US bonds) and stuck his tongue on a frozen flagpole. Iqaluit cam footage of this unfortunate incident:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFu7SjF7Hfg
on Mon, 02/08/2010 - 04:39
#221949
No need for all the phone calls. All the financial bigwigs got together this weekend for a big party. Check the news.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:05
#221483
gyro time !!!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:06
#221484
DOLLAR UP!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:10
#221488
DOLLAR UP! lol
a viagra new york second.. but will you love me in the morning
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:07
#221486
I am sure all the greek monetary outflow is rushing into the safety of the dollar and U.S. treasury market. No safer bet on the planet. Just look at the technicals. The dollar could go beyond the moon and all the way to another galaxy.
Time to go lift some gold phys offers before everyone else catches on to the true flight to safety.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:16
#221494
I am sure money is also beginning to leave Spain and Portugal.
At this time all savers in the PIIGS nations should be sending their money to Germany. It makes no sense to have it vaporized!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:36
#221506
USD Target 96-104 (2010)
eat it
lmfao
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 19:37
#221594
I thought 92 as well. At that point Gekko will be shown the door don't you think?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 23:44
#221801
Maybe the US$ will get to 92, maybe 98. Who knows?
Then I will buy even more gold.
Deflation first. Big inflation after.
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:47
#221512
The article would be interesting if it stated that the Greeks were moving funds to the UK. Why are the Brits so traumatized of not being in the Eurozone?
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 17:58
#221513
There is one thing you all need to know about us Greeks. When our backs are against the wall, we rise to the challenge. No matter what, I will always be LONG GREECE! ELLADARA!!!!