Rush to Geneva?

Leo Kolivakis's picture

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Anonymous's picture

Who is John Galt?

Anonymous's picture

Who is John Galt?

Anonymous's picture

Anything that can be done to remove these parasites from London and New York, and to place them into locales whose economies are simply too small to bail them out of their mistakes (read "Switzerland") is very positive for the well-being of the U.K. and the U.S.A., and, secondarily, for the world economy. The temporary pain caused by the removal of parasites is akin to the nausea caused by the drug that is used to kill off tapeworms.

Anonymous's picture

Anything that can be done to remove these parasites from London and New York, and to place them into locales whose economies are simply too small to bail them out of their mistakes (read "Switzerland") is very positive for the well-being of the U.K. and the U.S.A., and, secondarily, for the world economy. The temporary pain caused by the removal of parasites is akin to the nausea caused by the drug that is used to kill off tapeworms.14

Anonymous's picture

What do YOU do?

Anonymous's picture

And the problem is really more basic than some would assume....

Ever hear of the old saying....garbage in...garbage out....

It would behoove everyone to take a gander at the fact based wiki biographies of Brown the Clown....and other verbose politicians....

They simply do not have the proper qualifications to make important economic decisions....but yet assume they are ....and they are .....

This is worse than bad....

Put it this way.....would you let some well meaning person build your house....who has never built one before ?

Well...this is exactly what is happening....

Time to stop the insanity folks....

Anonymous's picture

Why is this guy still writing for Zero Hedge. He's as silly and as trivial as Irwin Kellner. Get him off this site!! He's just a silly goombah.

Privatus's picture

People are economic actors and they vote with their feet. Capital, including human capital, wants to be free. It will go to wherever it is freest. Geneva? Certainly. Hong Kong and Singapore will also benefit from the UK's stupid policies. For now, the sun has set on London.

Leo Kolivakis's picture

Stated by someone who is woefully ignorant of economic geography.

Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

It goes like this:

The arsonist sets the fire, watches the blaze, then after the burning is over, the arsonist leaves.  Standard case.  

Buy Silver.

Anonymous's picture

Nothing like good ole fashion Chavez Ice Cream.

chet's picture

Why don't they just quit being hedge funders altogether and do something productive with themselves?

I have been endlessly fascinated over the last couple years with the fact that Wall Street/City/bankster types really expect that we'll care when they start pouting and stomping their feet.

Note to slimeballs:  NO ONE LIKES YOU!  No one likes your business.  Many many people could see you living under a bridge and not feel the least bit sorry for you.

Go to Geneva.  Go to hell.

mw1's picture

If CB Richard Ellis could pick up their real estate inventory and move it to Geneva they wouldn't have such an incentive to to play down the impact of higher taxes on British business.

Zippyin Annapolis's picture

Ha ha ha ha ha ha--Exactly!!

Anonymous's picture

Let's speak English....

What if there were two partners....

One partner had no risk....and did no work....and
did not come up with the ideas of work.....nor sold what was produced....but yet demanded 50%....and if you did not pay him....he would put you in jail....

Another case....

Just the same except for the partner wanted nothing....but just wanted you to succeed....and this was entirely appropriate because the partner did nothing for the business....

Which would be better for the partner having to do the actual work ?

Which partner would you want ?

End of story....

Anonymous's picture

People keep begging for more Socialism ... It will come and everybody will really miss the lives that we live now ... Do not forget that among the 140 mio taxable "units" , 80 mio paid ZERO taxes .. Then the bill was left to be paid for the reaming 60 mio ... But 46% of this bill was really paid by the 1% richest ....So as you can see few people pay taxes .. Most of the taxes are ALREADY paid by the rich ... Trying scaring them away ... Who is going to foot the bill ? By the away , I think it is an absurd that so many people pay zero taxes ... Everybody should be taxes .. Even if just 1 dollar a year ...But paying zero and then going to streets asking where is MY TAXPAYER money is hypocritical .. To say the least ...

Anonymous's picture

But 46% of this bill was really paid by the 1% richest"

if this 1% hald 46% or less of the wealth they your argument would make sense.
however i think they own close to 98%

Anonymous's picture

Boycott China? Why not pass a law to close down all Wal Mart stores? Come on, I don't take this stuff seriously. There is no China, it's now Chimerica!!!


How can there be Chimerica when they are actually
two completely different sets of laws .....and enterprise formation ?

Chimerica can only have ONE President....


WMT = CHINA correct....


How can the US correct its price mechanism such that WMT buys from the US ?

15% Consumption tax other taxes....

Comrade de Chaos's picture

so Leo, do you think the below is a good idea?


he does sound crazy sometimes, however a lot of what he has to say does make sense.


p.s. I like google, :) (not as an Investment with a 1000+ PE of cause.)

Species8472's picture

Don't need to boycott China, just demand that they float their currency.


Leo Kolivakis's picture

Boycott China? Why not pass a law to close down all Wal Mart stores? Come on, I don't take this stuff seriously. There is no China, it's now Chimerica!!!

Amish FinEng's picture

The Amish pension fund has major investments in Jarden.

Anonymous's picture

I'm going to call b.s. on the last post. A 50% tax rate is punitive.

Why should anyone pay millions a year just to live in a western country. This is ridiculous and (with the internet) totally unsustainable.

plongka10's picture

If you are priviliged enough to earn millions a year, then surely paying 50% of those millions per year in tax is irrelevant to your general wellbeing and quality of life?

Congratulations on being a member of the elite. Enjoy your life. 

Anonymous's picture


I fully recognize the advantages that the society that I live and work in affords me but to argue that my presence and success in it means that I am obliged to give politicians carte blanche to tax me however they see fit is laughable.

What we have is nothing more than the producers/savers bailing out the gov'ts and non-producers/debt slaves.

Anonymous's picture

The point is .....

When one walks into a London or US retailer....

Where were the products made ?


Does London and the US not need to increase their SUSTAINABLE enterprises in cluding manufacturing ?

Perhaps the sole venue is tax structure change to a CONSUMPTION tax only.

In the US.....approximately 50% of the population pays no income tax....but gets to vote....

The US debt needs at the present represent an amount greater than the world's savings rates....


One of the best ways of creating wealth is innovation.

If one were to tax a pool of funds by 50%....and another equal pool by 15%.....which pool would create more innovation ?

If taxes comprised 50% of a price ....and was equal to a product whereby taxes comprised 15% of the price.....which product is going to sell ?

If a company has a choice of locating in a country whereby it takes 50 cents to produce a dollar.....versus a country whereby it takes 15 cents to produce a dollar....where are they going to locate ?

If a BRIC country has a tax rate of 40% and labor cost of 5%....and another country has a tax rate of 50% and a labor cost rate of 20%.....where is the company going to locate ? And what if there was a country with labor costs of 25 cents and a tax rate of 15% ? Where is the company going to locate ?

Write this down....

Every Govt. tax event is an add on cost....

Write it down 100 times....

Leo Kolivakis's picture

Having visited Geneva, I agree with my buddy, it's too small and too stuffy (in every sense of the word) to compete with London in any meaningful way. Of course, hedge funds can set up offices anywhere in the world. Vega Asset Management set up their trading operations in Madrid. Haven't followed them but that is a beautiful city. If Greece was smart, they would try to entice fund managers there. My dream is to set up an operation in Crete. I can wake up at a reasonable hour, have a coffee, swim, and make it back in time for the opening in London and the NYSE. Then again, having a bunch of hedgies and investment bankers in Greece would ruin my appetite. (I have enough watching the arrogant jerks in Kolonaki Square in Athens - real butter boys with their Armani sunglasses, Hermes ties, Canali suits, and Vacheron Constantin watches, sipping espressos, reading their papers, pretending to work while they text message each other all day long!!!).

Anonymous's picture

I guess some people at Mercer prefer Geneva to London:

Geneva #2
London #39

The Economist lists Geneva at #8, but London is nowhere to be found.

Leo, I wouldn't be too confident that smart, ambitious people would not be willing to move. The real question is: why the hell not!? Because of the nightlife?

Leo Kolivakis's picture

So what? they list Vancouver #3 after Zurich and Geneva and Montreal #22,  after Toronto (#15) and Ottawa (#18). I don't take these lists seriously and very much doubt hedgies do too. If you really want to live in a decent city in Europe, go to Brussels, Belgium. My mom and stepfather have been living there for a few years now and it's a beautiful city and much more to do and see than Geneva or Zurich.

nonclaim's picture

Geneva isn't trying to compete with London so this point is moot. But the question is on, why do they (HFs) choose Geneva anyway? There must be something that you didn't notice in your visit... Don't have to live in Geneva, stay somewhere around and have a scenic drive everyday instead of being stuck in London traffic. When bored (it happens) the airport is right there, 15min by train. Or just ride your bike to France...

Now you got me thinking... I'll prepare my resume. Thanks!

Leo Kolivakis's picture

Many years ago, my boss and I were taken out by two wealthy hedge fund managers to a fine restaurant on the outskirts of Geneva. It was in a winery with beautiful scenery. They laid it on thick, ordering a couple of vintage Chateau Petrus bottles at a few thousand dollars a pop, which didn't seem to bother my boss (so I just drank it and enjoyed the evening). But if I had to choose a place to live, London trumps Geneva. It's far from perfect (way too crowded), but London is a cosmolitan city where you can find it all. Geneva is nice but it's boring, like watching paint dry.

aus_punter's picture

Leo, you sound like a tool writing this.  If you are so superior to all those you admonish then why would you (as the client) choose to socialise in this way.  And why would anyone allocating pension money need to be around for the LSE open ? Quit the big noting, you sound like a 2nd year IB analyst.

Leo Kolivakis's picture

Because my boss was with me, and to be honest, back then, I didn't know the cost of Chateau Petrus. My boss told me about it after the dinner. It didn't make a big impression on me, but I did enjoy the conversation with these two hedge fund managers. I am not superior to anyone and you sound like someone who has a chip on their shoulder. I must have struck a nerve with you for you to come out and attack me.

bokapita's picture

Good riddance. Living in the UK, or for that matter any western country, is a privilage for which one has to pay. The idea that the cost of living, taking everything into account, in Geneva is noticeably less than London is absurd.

The tax regime in the UK is not punitive, and a 10 cent increase in tax above a taxable level of income of 250,000 USD is no great hardship. Perhaps these whiners have the idea that they have no responsibility to contribute?

As the activities of the City have caused the UK taxpayer to pledge and or pay more than 1.5 TRILLION dollars worth of taxpayers' money to keep the show on the road, the requested contribution from higher earners is modest.

The hedge funds and others are part of this guastly mess, either indirectly or directly, and many of us, myself included, have yet to see a shred of evidence that any real wealth has been created by their activities. I mean, capital provision for industry seems to have disappeared as an objective of financiers. Redistributing existing wealth in their favour does not seem to me to be an activity the absence of which will damage the UK.

masterinchancery's picture

The UK is a massive bureaucratic welfare state, with National Health being the 3d largest employer in the world after the Chinese Army and Indian railroads. That bureaucracy produces little of value. If the actual wealth wealth producers refuse to be plucked like chickens for the benefit of patronage armies, they are in the moral right.

masterinchancery's picture

Disagree Leo; in the long run, money talks.  We have this thing now called the internet.

Anonymous's picture

From some of the comments on here, I would have thought this article was posted in the New York Times. As the article says, if the bankers leave, there goes a significant portion of your tax revenue. And then you can't hire a Mary Shapiro for the rescue...

The problem is exactly that governments feel they need to regulate everything (think interest rates). As a matter of fact, if they had kept their hands out of the cookie jar, there would be more competition in banking and profit margins would shrink (and jobs created). Hell, we may actually even have an industrial sector in the US. The government has effectively created this abomination that now they feel they need to contain. Well quit feeding the monster!

Taxing at 50% is NOT the answer. You want me to pay more so the SEC can grow?! No thanks, see you in Geneva.

Leo Kolivakis's picture

Here is what a buddy of mine who works at a major bank here in Canada had to say:

"Sounds like a drop in the bucket, where will all these HF managers go? Geneva is a small town by London standards.  How about school for their precious children.  Geneva could possibly accommodate a couple of hundred managers, but even then, it's not like there is lots of spare capacity in their infrastructure.  This issue was raised a year ago, when the UK government imposed a minimum tax on wealthy residents.  Bottom line: few places (Frankfurt, Paris) have the capacity to take on expats, and these countries to may “tax” them when they get there. "

Anonymous's picture

People believe what they want to and they believe that the "problem" was all caused by greedy bankers and that therefore they should be punished. Bankers were the symptom, the causes were structures borrowing short and lending long and rating agencies and regulators encouraging investors into the very risks they were supposed to be guarding against. Then panicking and changing the rules bringing about the very liquidity paralysis they were supposed to protect agaiinst. So blame the bankers, the new Kulaks. Punish anyone who earns "too much" ( unless of course it is in tax free allowances) and then wonder why half of the service sector doesn't have any customers. And when people suggest they may leave say "ha ha good riddance" then wonder who is going to buy your product. Unless of course you work for the state then it doesn't matter does it?

Anonymous's picture

Good riddance, bankers.
Good riddance, service sector.
Let them eat derivatives.

nobusiness's picture

Moving out of London works for Brit's but US citzens are taxed on worldwide income and then get a credit for taxes paid to other jurisdictions.  Unless you plan on renouncing your citizenship you can't beat the taxman.

Neophiliac's picture

The long reach of the IRS is annoying in the extreme, but there are still significant savings to be had by not paying NY state and city taxes (or property taxes that amount to the same thing if you're in the suburb), medicare (set for a hike) and social security. And don't forget to add in exobirantly high rates for health insurance. 

Federal income tax alone ain't that horrible - even after Bush's cuts expire. It's the combination of all federal and local taxes that kills it. And WTF do we get in exchange?   Military superiority? Thanks, but no thanks.

Anonymous's picture

That doesn't always work either. If you have assets of more than 2 million or pay 124K a year in taxes for the previos 5 years before renoucement, you'll still have to pay income taxes for ten years following expatriation.

Zippyin Annapolis's picture

Yes and a 30% toll tax on exit.

Anonymous's picture

If the respective legislatures of UK and US put this harsh of a tax on their best friends, what on earth do you think they're going to do to us little people?

Simple SEC enforcement should suffice -- we don't need more regulation, we don't need punishing taxes, we don't need uncertainty in our major financial institutions or the broader market, and we damn sure don't need MORE FREAKING GOV'T INVOLVEMENT.

No one should rejoice at this news. I'm as mad at the major financial players as the next guy, but punitive taxation not only is NOT the answer, it's completely unconstitutional and lets the rest of the camel's nose in the tent.

Anonymous's picture

Why are there more buildings on the maryland side of 81? my guess taxes. why will bank and investment type move to geneva? taxes.who would blame them. 40,000 people pay more than 70 percent of the taxes in nyc, who is screwing who?stop callng them banksters and start thanking them for paying your taxes...

trav7777's picture

Yes, I praise Jesus daily for the opportunity to acquire more debt on my behalf to bail out banks so bankers can get huge bonuses and pay a fraction of that back in taxes.  It's awesome!

Zippyin Annapolis's picture

Real Estate groups painting a rosy scenario--how original!! After all they have all of those empty buildings and spec construction they need to fill.