Rust Discovered On Bank Of Russia Issued 999 Gold Coins
Here's a head scratcher: as everyone knows from elementary chemistry courses, gold is the most inert metal in the world - it does not rust, nor corrode. Yet this is precisely what Russian commercial precious metal trading company, International Reserve Payment System, discovered on thousands of (allegedly) 999 gold coins "St George" (pictured insert) issued by the Central Russian Bank. The serendipitous discovery occurred after various clients of the company had requested that their gold be stored not in a safe, but in a far more secure place: "buried under an oak tree." As the website of IRPS president German Sterligoff notes: once buried, "the coins began to oxidize under the influence of moisture." And hence the headscratcher: nowhere in history (that we know of) does 999, and even 925 gold, oxidize, rust, stain, spot or form patinas, under any conditions. Furthermore, as IRPS discovered, Sberbank of Russia released an internal memorandum ordering the purchase of the defective coins with
the spotted appearance. Sterligoff concludes: "It should be noted that
the weight and density of the rusty coins coincide with the
characteristics of gold that would be expected after after conventional testing methods would reveal. We think that the experts
will be interesting to determine the nature of this phenomenon." So just how "real" is 999 gold after all, either in Russia or anywhere else?
As a consequence of this discovery, IRPS decided to "rid itself of all stocks, bought up earlier from the Central Bank on behalf of investors. Investment coins "St. George The
Conqueror", as well as other gold coins of the Bank of Russia, are now
excluded from the company's operations until all circumstances in the case are determined." Additional, as disclosed in the interview below for Here and Now show on TVRainRu, the Russian Central Bank would buy back the coins at a price of 9,300 rubles, despite prevailing prices for the bullion at well over 10,000.
As Zero Hedge has pointed out previously, the Central Bank of Russia has been one of the biggest purchasers of gold in 2010, having bought gold every single month. It would be embarrassing if it were discovered that not only is the bank diluting the gold content once received with oxidizable materials, but subsequently passing it off for 999 proof precious metal.
And if this is happening in Russia, one wonder what trickery other Central Banks, with a far lower amount of gold in their vaults, resort to...
h/t Janis
(21 votes)
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on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:35
#474787
transcript? I don't speak Ruskie
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:22
#474873
The afternoon sun glistened on the sweat that lathered Summers' red forehead as a fly landed on his eye. He instinctively slapped himself; this nearly woke him up. "Huh whaftha? Uhhg..." He rolled over, never once opening his eyes. Inside Timmah was busy getting destroyed at PPT. He had finished all but 12 levels, but now he faced the infamous "Algorithm Machines from Hell". He had played all afternoon without any luck. He was exhausted, "Timmah!"
He leaned back in his bean bag chair, and thought about what life would be like if he was CEO of Goldman Sachs. Then he remembered that BlankCheck was partying in the Hamptons, and as he wondered what Lloyd was up to, his ipaduh beeped.
Timmah ran over and clicked it off snooze. There was an urgent message from President Medvedev. All it said was, 'There is a rumor floating around that I was sold some bunk. If I find out I was, there will be hell to pay. For starters, I will make sure Hillary Clinton loses access to all the high profile dating sites in Moscow!' Timmah did not want Hill upset. "Timmah!" He scrolled down to a video link and pressed play:
"It appears that a bald man in a silver suit [flash shot of Ben Bernanke] and wearing a pinky ring has been using the Russian Mint as an underground liar, this from a report by the local news station Khfonunski. The man was last seen exiting the area in what looked like a flying Smart Car [shot of Bernanke flying out of an opening roof]."
Outside a propeller could be heard, and then a loud bang! LawWrench Summers snorted and rolled over in his hammock. The Smart Car had crash landed into the side of the Oak tree. Timmah ran outside in time to see Bernanke open and fall out the side door. "Agh, Timmah, they almost shot me down over Siberia. I could barely stand this thing." He said as he stood up from his knees. He pointed to the car, "It is freezing in there, Timmah! I thought I told you to install a heater? Do you know how long it takes to make it over the Canadian Arctic? I nearly froze my balls off!" Timmah chuckled to himself, "Ti-him-meh!"
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:59
#474928
OUTFRIGGINSTANDING!!
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 02:35
#475128
Gold coins that have been at the sea bottom are cleaned !!!!!!!!!!! Look at ship of gold from monaco coins !!!!!!!!! they become a rusted like mass that after cleaning are single coins !!!!!!!! even proof coins have spots!!!!!!!!! story is messed up !!!!!!!!! then saying pcgs coins on ebay are fake ???? one or 2 are and you can check # on pcgs web page !!!!!!!!!! go to ha.com and see what coins are going for today !!!!!!!!!!!!!! p.s i have a 60 x 60 peter max worth about 200k that i got off ebay for $7,500 thanx !!!!!!!! I just got the bill from axa fine art to insure it !!!!!!!!!!!!!
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 04:06
#475148
Dear Moneygrove,
You may not have noticed but one of the keys on your keyboard seems to be sticking. In fact, it appears to be the exclamation point key. And possibly the question mark key. They may just be worn out from over use. May I suggest you simply replace the keyboard? Walmart is running a special this week on wireless units.
Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ops, maybe I should take my own advice. :>)
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 08:44
#475246
Ah, there you are CD. It's like going to a loud party and looking for the one sane person you know. I think I've figured out the reason for this article. It's total BS so Tyler threw it in the shark tank to see how long it would survive. It's an all-skate event. Tyler really is a smart group o' guys/gals. It let's the steam outta the system and prevents a blow-up. Look at all the nut cases posting below (and I include myself). Aren't we having some fun now? Monday morning we'll buckle down and get on with the serious events of the day. We'll wake up amidst the broken beer bottles, soggy cigarette butts, nekkid wimmin, and the strange car parked in the living room. That was fun!
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 11:44
#475338
Rust, Bitches!
Ha!
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 15:08
#475463
I thought I saw Gekko leaving the Home Depot with a bottle of Naval Jelly. I hope he knows the difference between "Naval" and "Navel". That shit burns like Corexit times 100!
on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 01:48
#475853
nah, i just think that the rust look is because there are small amounts of copper in the alloy. .999 is 22 kt, if the entire alloy (the gold and whatever other metals are in the mix) contain copper, the copper atoms will tend to group together, and sort of "leech" through the "precious metals," giving the coin the look of rust. It would be helpful if there was greater magnification on the areas in question.
disclaimer: "i am neither a metallurgist nor an alchemist. I do have 12 years experience casting precious metals, but my opinion could be wrong and i am just offering my wild ass guess."
disclaimer ii: "i own gold and silver and platinum and palladium and shotguns and shotgun shells and rice and beans... so stay off my lawn, goddamnit.
on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 08:38
#475967
Dude...
999 gold is 23.976 karats
22 karat gold is .917 pure
Are you sure you have been casting precious metals for over 12 years (as you state)...?
on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 10:22
#476005
yep, you're right, i was wrong about the purity. i shouldn't post after tequila shots...
on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 08:20
#475958
Dudes...!
When you buy a "999 gold" coin for a 10% premium, you are also getting a lot of impurity... you just paid 10% more for "air"
[the value of the coin you just bought is 90% gold... and 10% air]
I think I would rather have the russian coin which might be 98% gold, 2% impurities, and no "air".
Think about it.
But what do I know, I am just a Dick Weed.
on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 10:55
#476041
American Gold Eagles are 22k. They still contain 1 ounce of gold, hence they weigh more than 1 ounce (1.0909 troy ounces). I didn't know if you were aware of that so I thought I'd throw it in.
Better a Dick Weed, than a Dick Head, eh?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 11:48
#475343
Don't forget the drunk chinaman precariously perched in the oak in the front yard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3aJ0FVnGzQ&feature=related
Good times
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 17:57
#475559
Why not just "move the keyboard"? Works swell.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 07:37
#475207
Peter Max has said that much of what is attributed to him is fake!!!! and even stuff he has done is fake too!!!!Pablo P said much the same thing!!!!
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 09:40
#475277
Russia is corrupt????? OMG!!!!!
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 09:24
#475267
Bullshit.
.999 gold when real cannot, will not, and has never corroded. These "rusted like masses" you write of are simply marine life that has grown on the outside of the coin or other piece made from the gold. It's just chipped off and the mass dropped in acid to clean.
Acid cannot hurt the gold either, unless you are electroplating with pure lab grade sulfuric and a current running through it.
You cannot do this as that acid is extremely hard to come by unless you have a license to purchase for industrial uses. Not battery acid, not nearly.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 20:28
#475640
you dont know what youre talking about buddy ! gold or platinum can be dissolved with a mixture of nitric/hydrochloric acid of 1:4. You should not make comments like these unless you are expert in the field.
on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 08:22
#475960
Right you are WaffleFace... aka Acqua Regia... and especially when heated, can dissolve gold in 3 winks of an eye.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 23:42
#475810
We sometimes see gold coins which have rust stains on them. Mention this to most people and their jaw drops open, because they are about to say that gold doesn't go rusty. Of course not, but it sometimes gets stored in steel boxes in safes or deposit boxes. If these are then stored in damp or humid conditions, the box may rust, and this can stain the coins if it comes into contact with them. The rust stain can be dissolved using almost any acid, even quite weak one such as lemon juice, vinegar, or the carbonic acid present in fizzy drinks. Obviously these may leave the surface of the coin sticky, but this can be rinsed off. If rust stains are persistent, you could try using a stronger or more concentrated acid (strength and concentration are not the same thing), such as we describe in our page about red spot.
http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/cleaninggoldcoins.html
on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 10:58
#476045
You are SO correct. I think the whole ordeal is a pile of.... well, you know.
All they had to do was assay the coin and answer the question. Big deal.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 23:03
#474995
LMFAO !!
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 10:56
#475315
You are something else MR Lennon Hendrix! Bravo!
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 23:54
#475032
The summary of this video is simple: there is no such thing as "rusted " gold regardless of what the Russian Central Bank or "independent" appraisers say or do.
It appears that we live in a very fraudulent world. The good news: this is coming to the end. Similar to what happened following to the fall of the Roman Empire, the mankind is about to go to the "new Dark Ages". WOW!
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 08:41
#475244
I agree, pure gold will not corrode under any circumstances, only when it has impurities will that happen. It does not, however, take much in the way of impurities to cause corrosion. It could be just crappy refining, not intentional fraud. Caveat: the Russians surely know how to do it right. Solution, assay the suckers, don't f*** around with specualtion. Another solution: don't buy gold from any but the most trusted sources. Some folks hate to pay what they call a premium, but that is the price for trusted coins. Do you like risky gold at a discount? Would you buy Russian or Chinese coins? I surely wouldn't. Caveat emptor.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 11:52
#475345
ugh! This does not bode well for my Panda.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 12:30
#475367
Nothing wrong with Pandas. Have bunches of them, all tested.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 22:28
#475742
You may want to avoid the Zimbabwe Mugabes they are selling on Craigslist.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:48
#475073
Transcript? Who needs one, lets just nuke the F@cks and get it over with once and for all! Hey Obama, ??????, are you paying attention?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:50
#475076
It´s easy. When dealing with a russian whore, all you need to know is , iti suda, iti von!
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 03:18
#475136
This is too bad. What a pitty. If you could understand Russian, you would be laughing your head off.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 03:19
#475138
This is too bad. What a pitty. If you could understand Russian, you would be laughing your head off.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 04:17
#475152
Man, ZH used to be great, now we're becoming as alarmist and 'let's ignore the possibilities to further our own agenda'-ist as the lamestreamers.
Gold coins often spot with rust from the containers they are stored in. Unless the coins are properly chemically analysed we're all full of shit.
Ejumacate yo'self
http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/cleaninggoldcoins.html
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 12:18
#475359
Not head scratching at all...Gold does not rust...period.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:37
#474791
There could be chocolate in those gold coins from the looks of it!
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:45
#474805
It Russia. The gold rust, and the cho-co-lat smells like fecum magnificum.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 23:34
#475020
Maybe the spots were caused by Al Gore gisum on gold coins he paid the Russian masseuse with...
If Gore's masseuse looked anything like that hot Russian blonde anchorette...
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 08:28
#475238
That's it!!!
We have a winner!
The coin in question has just released it's pent up Chukara...it will feel and look better in a minute ;-)
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:38
#474792
this sounds like some sort of scam to make citizens turn in their gold at under market price
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:13
#474860
Me think this sound like no brainer. The question that can't be answered is "how much". I would like to think not a lot. But I would also like to think that the world has not been lost to the lowest common denominator, which of course calls into question my thought processes.
Even I see it.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:40
#474794
Well, at least Russian dating sites are real...
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 08:49
#475247
Yes, but what you pick up from there isn't exactly gold.
/Not speaking of experience, though I have dated Eastern European women.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 09:26
#475269
Mel Gibson has some tips on dating Russians.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 22:32
#475746
Rumor is he is writing a book "Idiots Guide to Dating Russian Models".
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:40
#474796
Huh...interesting.. And to think I was just spending time with this weeks '64s and thinking about how I liked their condition :)
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:40
#474797
I wonder how much these certified rusting gold coins would go for on ebay?!
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:49
#474816
+.999
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:40
#474798
There could have been steel filings in the air that stuck to the gold and rusted.
I had a set of polished aluminum wheels stored at a friends garage. I was there once so I just had a look at them, they had a thin coat of rust on them. I figured out that the guy was using a wire wheel grinder in the garage and the particles from that stuck lightly to the wheels and caused the rusted look. It polished off in 2 seconds. My bet is that there was work being done on the vault.
PS. Jonny Bravo is a day trading douche bag and has no business commenting on golds LONG TERM bull market.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:48
#474813
Jonny Bravo is a punk in drag choking on a ......
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:43
#475066
Oh yeah ? I wish this wasn't the Internet either. Then I could break those fucking fingers of yours off so that you would stop spouting off about the hourly gyrations in the gold price in a potentiall 20 year bull market.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 07:07
#475191
Jonny is Nadler, am telling you, the same cowardly punk
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:39
#475063
If junks were punches, JB would have been a fine powder long ago.
Internet tough guy, and I'm not talking about the poster of the same name.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:48
#474815
JB/Master Bater's a progressive punk still in school, writing as if he's more intelligent, enlightened, educated and world wise, when in reality, the world is gonna eat his ass up once he has to go out into it with his useless BS/BA, Masters or Ph-f'nd.
I think he's a fag too.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:06
#474849
yeah he must be a fag, Keynes was too.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:04
#474932
socrates, plato, alexander the great, michelangelo, leonardo da vinci. all fags.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:10
#474939
Don't forget John Wayne. John Wayne was a fag.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:33
#475058
RepoMan?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 03:11
#475135
It's true you boys. I installed two-way mirrors at his pad in Brentwood. He came to the door in a dress.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 12:18
#475361
blasphemy!
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 22:30
#475744
Don't forget John Wayne. John Wayne was a fag.
Fill your hand, you son of a bitch!
on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 22:49
#476519
What about Chuck Norris? do you know all about him also?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:00
#475034
since you brought it up...would you consider yourself a genius?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 07:48
#475212
Most intellectuals are not geniuses.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 13:16
#475394
Johnny-
Since you and I seem to be favorite "junk" targets for the Gold-tards, let me ask you something:
Many of my posts ridiculing the Idolaters end up disappearing. Any idea why?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:43
#475069
No, they were all homosexuals. A fag is not necessarily homosexual. A fag is someone who seeks attention by being persistently loud, obnoxious, and boorish.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 11:45
#475339
I thought a fag was a cigarette.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 03:49
#475145
To be gay is to be a sexual contrarian. I bet they get a better ROI.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 07:51
#475218
Bawney Fwank does. - Ned
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 18:18
#475569
Hope you don't mind the kidding but at first glance I misread your comment as:
Bawney Fwank does :- Ned
and I thought, what an odd way to out yourself....
Punctuation is everything !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (in the parlance of our times). CB
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 05:29
#475167
Federal army generals? I don't think any of those guys were.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 17:02
#475524
The vast majority of pedophiles are fags. Over 80 percent of priests who sexually molested boys are fags. Fags are really cool and smart. Once fags turn 30 years old being a fag is a lonely and sad life. Just look around at all the old gay couples who are happy and still together. A fags life is great.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:01
#475036
don't hate...congratulate
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:50
#475075
degrees have nothing to do with being a genius.. it is strictly IQ
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 01:04
#475095
IQ is nothing more than processor speed...genius requires connections between disparate parts of the brain as well
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 06:03
#475173
"I've already ran a company in my day"
Did they use English there?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 07:44
#475210
Zingggg!
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:55
#474829
You make a good point. Gold will not dissolve in hydrochloric acid. Throw them in HCl and if they dissolve, they are not gold. In the process, it will remove the rust.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 01:48
#475116
I heart chemistry.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 12:34
#475371
You might heart chemistry, I kidney physics.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 07:51
#475216
"In the process, it will remove the rust."
ROTFL.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:59
#474838
Mr. Spit: JB is either a con or a simple soul who does not understand that de-basement is anything other than a floor in a building.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:06
#474850
lol
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 01:02
#475093
First you say I am an idiot for saying gold was up today in Canadian dollars even when I am Canadian.
Now you are pricing the US Dollar in the DXY which has the Canadian dollar in it !
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 07:26
#475195
Jonny, you Nadleretard
time for a new name Bitch,
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:04
#475039
JB might be on a douchy streak in this thread...but it does seem like with the proper impetus he could have something insightful to say...if you're gonna spill out some haterade at least mention something specific he said
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:46
#475070
Directly above your comment, he acts like he called the exact top and bottom, as though you could trade with perfect foresight. No, he didn't make those calls. He has been calling for triple digit gold ever since it went above 1000.
He is a liar and a fraud.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 01:07
#475099
exactly...douchy, totally...but for those of us who know even a little about finance can easily see that as baseless hubris and ignore it forthwith...and for those who know nothing about the markets and trading, well they're here to see what tyler and others have to say, not that guy
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 12:32
#475369
Master Bater flames whenever he can, so having something specific to point to in any given thread is no prerequisite anyone should be compelled to follow.
Johnny Bravo is an American animated television series created by Van Partible for the Cartoon Network. The series stars a muscular beefcake young man named Johnny Bravo, who dons a pompadour hairstyle and Elvis Presley-like tone of voice personality. Plots typically revolve around him trying to get a woman that he has targeted throughout the episode to fall in love with him. He is often beat up or stunned by his target or companions, or gets ditched by them in the end. Due to his narcissistic and dim-witted traits he tends to be attracted to any woman.
I still think he's a fag.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:27
#475053
Speaking of price and currency deflation or inflation -- currency inflation=price inflation and vise versa? I see price inflation on some food items and price deflation in most real estate. It looks like we are having currency deflation. No one has any cash and those who do are deleveraging. As far as price inflation/deflation-it looks like big ticket items are deflating and items like food are inflating in price. It looks like a prelude to further confusion and instability to me. If anyone has this (street level) madness figured out then they do deserve some kind of award. As far as the high level madness with the fed, bankers, and politicians--well thats easy, they're a bunch of sociopaths.
Best advice here is the Boy Scout Motto: "Be Prepared"
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 08:55
#475251
More fun reading here:
http://www.caseyresearch.com/displayCdd.php?id=485
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 21:24
#475698
"Ever hear of trends changing? That's why I don't invest long term."
And there it is, the very thing that separates you from the gold bugs.
It is not even just the time horizon thing; YOU are 'investing'. Once you reach some milestone of success, you might become increasingly concerned with wealth preservation. The arguments for seeking returns in gold, and seeking refuge in gold, are totally different. I get the impression from your posts that you see no distinction; that you are busy doing short term trades, and assume that that is all that everybody else is doing.
on Sun, 07/18/2010 - 01:42
#475852
I was responding to a Johnny Bravo post, now disappeared.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:42
#474799
Awwwww. And, I was so looking forward to that gold-backed Russian mulah, and now look, someone planted the seed of doubt.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:44
#474800
Well, well, well. Russians lie. Big surprise. Lies everywhere.
But all of this shows that Gold is a very BIG and complicated subject. Always something new to learn.
I'll take mine physical please.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:51
#474909
Found a link to an article in Russian.
http://www.newsru.com/finance/16jul2010/gold.html
There is an endless link-loop back to ZH, etc.
I smell a rat.... or a jumped shark.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:06
#475040
good on ya for doing some extra digging rocky...it might be a simple google search but it is helpful to see what you came up with
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 08:35
#475241
Do a Google search using "Russian gold rust".
A lot of the results give you this article on ZH, and ... roundy, roundy, roundy.
That was last night, and it's probably a lot stronger today, but I need to tend to my garden so I ain't got time to check it out.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 01:31
#475113
What do you mean? It doesn't loop my browser back to ZH and I can't find a ZH link there.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:07
#474935
Wolfram, bitches!
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:45
#474804
Yeah but come on, Russia is run by crooks!
Come to think of it, so are most other countries with the exception of GS and the Vatican, as they do god's work after all, so their purity is guaranteed by the highest authority.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:46
#474808
Rusty Gold with Kramer avatar coming...
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:47
#474809
Statist's can't even make a decent forgery...LOL.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:57
#474837
I'll admit I'm impressed with the beating modern green toilet paper can take. I once peeled a $20 off the asphalt in a pouring rain. Once it dried it was good as new. Hell, once it devalues enough I can probably save money by wiping my ass with it and running it through the washing machine.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:09
#474856
The Russians are just trying to talk down the price you stupid fuck. Congrats,You are their first victom
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:24
#474879
The only thing I was worried about was that the price would not fall so I could buy more.
Did the KGB hire you to rub this story in ?
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:37
#474968
Spitzer,
What is the IQ of gold?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 22:37
#475752
Where you telling Gordon Brown when the price of gold will fall too ?
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:47
#474912
@megatoxic
"Paper money is cool.
You can use it to buy stuff, like food and gas and short ETF's.
You can even use it to "invest" in phony yellow metal when the stuff is trading at a multi-cycle peak."
Thank you, that was a good laugh.
Though gold can be cool also. I enjoy fondling my precious at times.
The fault is being gold or paper centric.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:59
#474927
Are your precious open to some extracurricular fondling?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 08:27
#475236
Please show some class and change your avatar.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 08:57
#475254
Yessireee Bob! Beaker was one classy guy.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 09:11
#475263
He doesn't get it.
It's the study of gravitational pull!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IlHgbOWj4o
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:59
#475088
lol
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:53
#474811
Rust on your gold, bitchez!
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:53
#474827
LOL!
+ Something
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:04
#474848
Maples, bitch.
Why?
Because I wouldn't want it confused with U.S. currency ;-)
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:49
#474817
Another possibility is that, someone or some other country, is counterfeiting the coins, for any one of multiple reasons.
Such as, slowing the purchases of gold by retail and other investors or throwing a cloud over Russia's reputation in the markets involved as well as other markets, establishing the fact that gold coins may not be anywhere near .999 so thereafter other coins may be watered down.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 02:25
#475125
+1, things happen in the world and then each person comes to a conclusion, but only a handful of people will ever know what really happened.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:49
#474820
Actually, brown or red spots on gold coins and bars are quite normal. It's usually due to contamination of trace amounts of other metals.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:55
#474830
BUT it most often happens when they're phony. .999. Other metals??
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:06
#474851
Just Google it, plenty of people have reported seeing red/brown spots on 999 coins.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:20
#474871
it is normal on eagles, not on .999 or higher bullion, in my experience. Eagles have silver and copper which produce the spots or a red haze on the coin, cherry in appearance, totally normal, but a maple which is pure, never seen it.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:32
#474887
Agreed.
I've had Philharmonics for years.
For all I kid the goldbugs, I enjoy the fondling the precious, and at least my coins are as shiny yellow as looking at the sun on LSD after these many years.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 07:50
#475215
+999 I am partial to the Phils myself.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:44
#474908
I see the red spots on Mexican 50 pesos. They check out with one of those little thickness/diameter scales as expected, so I have never worried about a few small spots of toning. I notice the toning more on coins that were used in a bezel as jewelry.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:14
#474945
as noted above, coins are not .999. they are usually .900, a hundred times less pure. it is said that a good deal of the gold bars left in the u.s. reserves are .900 melt from the fdr seizure.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:18
#474951
make that 'coins are rarely .999.'
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 08:14
#475232
Not even rarely, when you consider how many Maples, Phils & Pandas are about.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 20:12
#475084
Gold is picky about what it alloys with, which is why you only find it with silver and copper in mines.
Let's see what do you call one of these alloys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrum
But once it alloys with silver and copper then those 2 elements can bring in garbage collecting.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 22:37
#475754
How do some bars end up with a tungsten core? Maybe the coins were made from tungsten salted bars?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 05:47
#475165
This is not unprecedented: the Russians produce a similar bullion coin in silver. If they produce both in close proximity, this could simply be silver contamination. This from the Kitco forum archives:
For .999 coins in a co-mint environment this would likely be the indicated 2-3 nanometer thickness stains and if these are legitimate .999 coinage, I imagine the Russian mint will insist on testing to establish this fact shortly. Then again, this is 2010, and nothing would surprise me.
The 2-3 nanometer thickness is sourced from http://www.springerlink.com/content/qc3nx8fdpendtvfm/
Original PDF: http://www.zlate-mince.cz/Red_dot_on_coins_surface.pdf
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 23:15
#475006
i've owned a few maples that have had red spots on them (that i have since traded at a local coin shop), and currently own several slabbed gold commemorative coins that are toned. red spots on gold coins may not be common, but they are not exactly rare either.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:28
#474884
Thats correct.
I am actually surprised that Tyder posted the story.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 23:11
#475000
but..but, do you mean that the other .001% could be copper, silver, etc., etc??
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:21
#474955
Interesting topic. I've been collecting gold coins for a couple years. Not just random bullion coins like Maple Leafs of Eagles or Philharmonics, but also older American Saints and Liberty's. All the older coins from the 1880s and early 1900s have been authenticated by the two top tier grading services: PCGS and NGC.
Here's what I think I know.
1. .999(9) fine gold should be gold and pristine. No rust or spots. This fineness of coins is made everywhere except the US, which has traditionally made .9 fine coins ever since the early 1800s to the present day eagles. In fact, the .9999 gold Buffaloes made by the US mint in 2006 was the first .9999 bullion coin ever made in the US.
2. Therefore, it is common to see even high grade authenticated US gold Liberty's and Saints with a couple coppery colored spots here and there. Because the remaining 10% not gold is indeed copper and a little silver. Never seen rust. In fact, some of the highest grade specimens known to exist of the old Liberty double eagles have prominent copper spotting.
3. Rust? That's a bad sign. Someone may be debasing the gold?
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:31
#474965
FYI: the coin pictured has a rusty spot on the left mid section. Also, it could be the pic but .999 gold coins have a distinctive deep gold color, that this coin does not. Looks more like .9 fine if it is gold.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:11
#475044
solid breakdown...these copper spots...green i suppose?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 01:00
#475090
they should actually turn pink if it is copper. think black hills gold jewelry, as they are colored with copper.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 05:12
#475163
No green that I've even seen (rhymes...). Always ranges from light orange to dark orange. You can see faint orange spotting even on freshly minted gold American Eagles (.9 fine). I have also seen some old American Liberty double eagles that have spots that are superficial and almost a little greyish or blackish. From the silver I suppose.
One thing Tyler danced around when describing the chemical properties of gold, could use some clarification. Gold is not inert. The inert elements begin with the column of the periodic table headed by Helium. These elements for all intents and purposes do not react with anything, ever.
Gold is not inert. It reacts chemically quite readily. However, it does not oxidize (corrode) meaning it doesn't react with oxygen. That's why you can pull a gold coin or gold bar off the bottom of the sea after a thousand years and its brilliant as ever.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 06:16
#475178
I have been buying double eagles since the late 1960s...reddish/pinkish is common, I have never seen one turn green or oxidize/rust. I have Mexican Pesos from the same era and it is common for them to look 'copperish', even when newly minted. Coin dealers back then often avoided Mexican Pesos because they didn't like the color. I have not seen older Krands and new Krands discolor...nor Maple Leafs.
I checked out the site that R Raccoon found but I do not read Russian.
What really ticks me off is that Hong Kong Ebayers are selling tons of 'reproduction' coins on Ebay. Whats with this? If a US citizen faked old US coins and put them for sale on Ebay they would likely be prosecuted for counterfieting.
This story was probably dreamed up by oligarchs, soverign states, wishing to beat down the price of gold by any means, so they can purchase at a lower price.
The story does not alter my long term portfolio one whit. Why should anyone care if a few Russian 'gold' coins are fakes...assuming that they are fake and have not been in contact with rusting iron in high humidity environment.
Hell, back in the 1950s one of my uncles had some vending routes and finding a fake quarter or fifty cent coin happened about every other day...in an era that gas was .23 cents/gal and ciggs were .25 cents/pack.
I still have a fifty cent piece made of aluminum and its a beautiful strike...just a bit light. :)
Back in the 1950s more purchases were made with a few dollars worth of coins (a bag of groceries cost a couple of dollars) and one fake mixed in with the real coins was easy to pass. They did not work in vending machines but would at times jam a machine and that is how vending route guys found them.
This Russian story is small potatoes imo.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 07:15
#475197
Here's a link to an article by our friends at NGC, one of the 2 top tier coin authentication and grading services:
http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?NewsletterNewsArticleID=572
Again: the consensus is that a .999 fine gold coin (as pictured above) and spotting/discoloration is inconsistent.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 07:30
#475202
"This story was probably dreamed up by oligarchs, soverign states, wishing to beat down the price of gold by any means, so they can purchase at a lower price."
Shhhhh ;-)
This is why I screamed dump your gold sarcastically on this thread...someone didn't get my humor and junked it...LOL.
If we know it's value and are determined to hold why would we care what it's valued in fiat? We know it's value is greater than any fiat given now in exchange.
Pure conjecture on my part but yesterdays plummet in gold priced in fiat terms could well have been margin calls demanding to be paid in gold or margin calls where the participant did not have fiat and had to liquidate gold holdings into fiat for the call. Maybe Paulson as pointed out here on ZH, maybe more than just one little hedgie in the market with no roast beef.
We'll know soon enough.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 15:15
#475469
Arrrgh Matey, methinks you right!
I listen to the fiat boosters and laugh. Pure fiat is a bet on future production in a world economy where future production is beginning to look dubious...to be kind.
Gold is based on past production. A rare mineral has to be located, mined, refined, cast or stamped, delivered to market.
So I say to the fiat boosters; which would you rather have...a piece of paper that will be worth something if future production occurs...Or, a piece of gold that has already been produced and is in your hand...with no possible liability based on future production?
It's a pretty simple choice, no? lol
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 17:12
#475528
Ahem...
http://koinpro.tripod.com/RareCoinRepros/WorldGoldRepros.htm
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:50
#474821
Da, da.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:52
#474824
Sounds like someone is getting a rusty sanchez.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:52
#474825
Holy S**T!
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:00
#474840
Of course...what was I thinking.
OMG ALL THE GOLD IN THE WORLD IS TAINTED...DUMP IT NOW!!!!!!!!!
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 20:53
#474828
I would like to know the backers of this TV station - it does not look state backed but who knows.
Can Zero hedge find out who owns that outfit.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:00
#474839
Gold is not the most inert metal in the world. Several platinum group metals are more so, capable of withstanding attack by aqua regia, particularly iridium
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:03
#474846
If you're buying gold from Russians, you deserve 'gold skid marks'...
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:09
#474857
"Russians don't take a dump without a plan son."
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 23:04
#474996
Always loved that line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb0QLxcvowk
In case they were wondering.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:18
#474863
i suppose it doesnt hurt to know, but who cares really.....
Having said that, the following is a good point:
"And if this is happening in Russia, one wonder what trickery other Central Banks, with a far lower amount of gold in their vaults, resort to..."
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:15
#474865
I have an old Eagle that has some spots like this.
Crown gold is not 925, tho, there is no 925 gold. It's 22kt, which is .91666. 925 is the Tiffany standard for sterling silver
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:49
#474915
This russian gold is .999
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:02
#474930
U. S. Mint buffaloes are .999.
http://www.intcurrency.com/images/subcategory/GoldBuffalo_bg.jpg
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:17
#474867
For rust like that, it is way below 92.5.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:35
#474868
Platinum metals are not inert. Mercury, because of the subatomic structure which keeps electron orbits from oxidizing the metal, never oxidizes, but is useless as a form of currency because as a commodity, its poisonous and liquid at room temperature.
Not a lot of the coins presented on TV rang like any minted coin, but sounded like plated zinc.
The silver ones, if buried as they say should have gone completely black, otherwise they may be only nickel plated. The orange spots are iron. Whitish oxidation is with aluminum particles. Green spots or brown spots are from copper.
Doré gold in use from the mines will look like gold straight away, but left in an unrefined state will tarnish like bronze. In fact, some of those coins look like tarnished doré gold coins without refinement. Pouring gold into iron billets will cause iron filings to enter the coins.
These coins need to be sent UMMEDIATELY to the Royal Canadian Mint for assaying and refining.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 00:20
#475047
Fransix...you clearly know a thing or few about chemistry and the elements. i hope you share some more of your thoughts on other articles about metals and alternative energy and such.
i wish i could do a lil more, but to show my appreciation for your insight here is a song that i've yet to see anyone dislike: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8xY_UmvNss
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:17
#474869
Next the Ruskie mail order brides are going to turn out to be
she-males OMG.
Is anything real anymore.
Stop waving the salami at me!
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:20
#474870
Damn! FIAT GOLD!
What will they think of next? At least Mario's gold never rusts. Play again?
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:29
#474885
Think of next? They're just borrowing from the ancient playbook. So don't we have some good ideas already of what's next?
History repeats when people forget.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:25
#474881
Is there a way find one's old posts... I remember responding to a poster to look out for what's being supplied to the mints (minters?).
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:33
#474889
Do you remember the article, the exact date and time you responded and to whom?
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:34
#474891
About 2:45 on your radio dial.
It's what I use...works for me.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:11
#474942
For the record, after the record, I trust my silver coins the least. I know, it's so cheap, why sub? Yeah, why check? Who is going to check? Shoot, I haven't authenticated my own coins, so why would I trust that someone else has?
Any suggestions on how to best check silver and gold at home?
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 23:11
#475001
Perform density calculations.
Density = mass/volume
Then, check your results against the density in a periodic table somewhere.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 01:14
#475105
I thought about that while sitting in the kitchen because my roomies have a periodic table on the wall. But how to measure the volume so precisely?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 10:37
#475304
Place the gold in a container with graduated (hopefully precise) markings indicating volume. Fill container with liquid and note the volume. Next, remove the gold and note the volume. Find the difference of the two volumes. Now you know the volume of the gold. Weigh the gold. With volume and wieght, calculate the density. Compare the measured density with the known density of gold.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 12:27
#475364
My question was more about the precision required.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 01:01
#475091
Silver coins will also give a nice ringing sound when flipped. The density can be replicated, but the sound can not (another unique quality of silver). Density is also a pain to measure, as you need precision glassware and a good scale.
For gold, density is good enough, as there is only one way to replicate its density--plated tungsten, but that is expensive to do for coins unless it is a major operation, in which case it would be found out fairly quickly. .999 gold will deform under your fingernail, so there is that if you like Maples or Philharmonics.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 01:11
#475101
You mean flip it in the air with a good spin and listen for a ring? It's late and I don't want to miss the catch and wake my roomies so will try tomorrow. What if it rings but I'm not sure if it's a "nice ringing sound"? Is this possible? Just curious, too, any clue why silver has this harmonic quality? Maybe it's a test for plating but not an alloy?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 15:03
#475462
Tested.
My coins seem to have a nice ring when flicked into the air with gold having a much higher frequency, but I'm still wondering if this only shows it's uniformity as opposed to being plated. Wouldn't a solid alloy also have a nice ring, considering this is a harmonic test? The harmonic waves aren't traveling through one medium and then another, so it rings, but an alloy would also be a uniform medium, no?
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 07:39
#475208
thes,
"Any suggestions on how to best check silver and gold at home?"
For someone who has trumped "the expanding universe model with a purely relational model" and so interested in Quantum Mechanics you sure have a hard time with the concept of Google and the ZH search box.
Just sayin ;-)
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 12:38
#475373
But I also have no self delusions of grandeur and am fully aware that sometimes just asking someone else in a community that attracts great (and greater) minds can give me better results than my own fumbling. Also, I never did find my post using those searches, and this whole testing at home thing is starting to look more like an art form than I anticipated.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 18:45
#475584
"But I also have no self delusions of grandeur and am fully aware that sometimes just asking someone else in a community that attracts great (and greater) minds can give me better results than my own fumbling."
Well that makes two of us.
"Also, I never did find my post using those searches,..."
The way I do it is I seed my commentary (that may need to be referred to again) with certain key words or phrases. Sometimes humor, sometimes oddball. Sometimes I recall what someone said and use that, for instance Quantum Mechanics ;-)
I plug this in and it always comes up for me. It can't be common phrases and you will need a decent memory for my method to work.
"and this whole testing at home thing is starting to look more like an art form than I anticipated."
What was relayed here is true for the most part as far as I can tell. A magnet won't attract to gold or silver...I just tried it. I would strongly advise against digging out your handy Army Field Manuals and attempting to make nitric acid or ANY other acid...LOL.
Seriously...we may not see eye to eye for what ever reason but I wish you no harm.
Here is one I Googled up.
http://www.nationaljewelerssupplies.com/c/gold-testers.html?gclid=CIOU08...
I have never felt the need to test mine. I buy from a reputable brick & mortar dealer...in cash.
Regards.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 21:03
#475681
I suppose I've never felt that much need either. Otherwise, I would've already tested my coins by now. Sorry for thinking out loud and wasting your time.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 23:53
#475009
thesapein
"Is there a way find one's old posts..."
- yes.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 01:21
#475107
I did find the way of tracking myself, but it's a slow way of going when I don't even remember the article. I think all I said was remain skeptical, which was by no means a postulation, so no self credit for me, come to think of it.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 01:06
#475098
I prefer google. Search using this string, or modify it at your leisure.
site:zerohedge.com thesapein mints
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:36
#474894
Ok, just watching this:
http://rt.com/About_Us/Programmes/XL_Reports/2010-07-18/584212.html
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:38
#474899
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:42
#474902
Pithy
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:46
#474910
Succint.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:43
#474904
The rust looks more like there are iron particles on/in the coin that rust.
My guess is some iron dust dropping from the machinery during the stamping process.
If the coin has an iron core, the density is way lower. An iron coin with thin gold plating could be recognized easily with any scale or magnet Any quality inspection would catch that, even by means available at home.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:55
#474981
Your comment makes the most sense. If there was any steel swarf on the dies or on the press it would be impressed onto the surface and then rust. Nothing in this suggests that there was an assay done on the suspect coins, so I call BS on this.
The press operator might have used a dirty rag/towel to wipe the dies or transferred the iron alloy onto the planchets.
If there is no followup to this story, then forget it.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 01:59
#475120
yeah i agree gunther... i have 999 Pamp fortunas in sealed cases with little specs of what looks like rust... same shit... ive concluded it was trace baser elements like iron picked up in the stamping process... ive seen it rarely on gold bars (1 ounce) but ive seen it... showed it to a gold dealer and he was like yeah thats nothing... weighed them on balance and weight was fine... the guy's gotta clean it / get it assayed as the other commenters here say
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:48
#474913
The US St Gauden, no moto, TR coin may be the best gold buy. There are fewer numbers but do not bring the expected upcharge. I dont remember when TR was president, but that is the year range and a very pretty coin. If you want to buy Russian/USSR, the Belarus tractor is the buy. And, yes, mine does have rust.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 03:01
#475134
The "No motto" coins were minted in 1907 and 1908. I have a nice 1908 NM; what a beautiful coin.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 21:53
#474920
This is exactly why I only buy assayed, graded, pre-33 Double Eagles and Libertys. The extra premium is well worth the assurance of authenticity. Lord only knows what there putting in these new coins!
Tungsten, Bitches...
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:16
#474947
The Chinese are minting near perfect counterfeits -- in PCGS holders!
There is no way out.
Coin World has had articles on this for the past year or more.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:20
#474954
That's how they pay the Norks, and the Norks like it that way.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:43
#474973
RR... thanks for the alert, but I never buy foreign or new (coinage) gold.
Every gold buyer should have this...
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product.php?productid=13561&cat=1343&page=1
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 22:54
#474984
How do you test them in a holder/slab?
I have gold testing equipment but the plastic sorta stifles testing.
on Fri, 07/16/2010 - 23:57
#475031
RR...I don't. I should have been more clear. I also buy 22kt gold chains when I can find them at my local pawn dealer.
People do put 22kt lobster claws on 14kt and 10kt chains.
I could not find the fake pandas you were talking about. Do you have a link?
Thanks!
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 09:10
#475261
Yeah, but you have to have a Coin World password.
Sorry, but I can't share mine here.
http://www.coinworldonline.com/search.aspx?st=counterfeit&cat=cw
Here is the list of articles at the PCGS website:
http://www.pcgs.com/search.aspx?cx=005421754352028250572%3Agyckckjzsdm&c...
In recent days, counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS slabs have begun to appear on eBay, the online auction site. All of the counterfeit coins/holders seen so far are coming out of China. Alert members of the PCGS Message Boards were the first to notify PCGS of the counterfeit coins/holders.
The coins themselves range from poor-quality counterfeits to well-made fakes. The counterfeit PCGS holders are well-executed, but with minor differences from a genuine holder. PCGS anticipates that authentic coins will eventually be placed into counterfeit PCGS holders in the future, perhaps with elevated grades and/or inappropriate designators (Full Bell Lines, Prooflike, etc.), although none have been seen to date.
The on-line PCGS Certificate Verification is a method for confirming that a particular certificate number matches the information in the PCGS database, but the counterfeiters are aware of this detection method and are now using valid certificate numbers (see below).
PCGS has contacted U.S. governmental agencies, including the FBI, U.S. Customs, the Secret Service, and US Postal authorities, to enlist their assistance in pursuing enforcement or legal remedies against these counterfeiters. Also, PCGS is a member of eBay's CCW Group, which monitors eBay for fraudulent listings and asks eBay to discontinue auctions of suspicious coins and/or suspend violators.
PCGS has called for eBay to stop accepting listings of any rare coins from Chinese sellers. Ebay recently pulled several auctions of counterfeit coins/holders at the urging of PCGS.
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 11:24
#475326
RR...thanks for the links. Learn something new everyday here on ZH!
on Sat, 07/17/2010 - 17:33
#475544
Also...Scary..
http://www.greatamericancoincompany.com/