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Rust Discovered On Bank Of Russia Issued 999 Gold Coins
Here's a head scratcher: as everyone knows from elementary chemistry courses, gold is the most inert metal in the world - it does not rust, nor corrode. Yet this is precisely what Russian commercial precious metal trading company, International Reserve Payment System, discovered on thousands of (allegedly) 999 gold coins "St George" (pictured insert) issued by the Central Russian Bank. The serendipitous discovery occurred after various clients of the company had requested that their gold be stored not in a safe, but in a far more secure place: "buried under an oak tree." As the website of IRPS president German Sterligoff notes: once buried, "the coins began to oxidize under the influence of moisture." And hence the headscratcher: nowhere in history (that we know of) does 999, and even 925 gold, oxidize, rust, stain, spot or form patinas, under any conditions. Furthermore, as IRPS discovered, Sberbank of Russia released an internal memorandum ordering the purchase of the defective coins with
the spotted appearance. Sterligoff concludes: "It should be noted that
the weight and density of the rusty coins coincide with the
characteristics of gold that would be expected after after conventional testing methods would reveal. We think that the experts
will be interesting to determine the nature of this phenomenon." So just how "real" is 999 gold after all, either in Russia or anywhere else?
As a consequence of this discovery, IRPS decided to "rid itself of all stocks, bought up earlier from the Central Bank on behalf of investors. Investment coins "St. George The
Conqueror", as well as other gold coins of the Bank of Russia, are now
excluded from the company's operations until all circumstances in the case are determined." Additional, as disclosed in the interview below for Here and Now show on TVRainRu, the Russian Central Bank would buy back the coins at a price of 9,300 rubles, despite prevailing prices for the bullion at well over 10,000.
As Zero Hedge has pointed out previously, the Central Bank of Russia has been one of the biggest purchasers of gold in 2010, having bought gold every single month. It would be embarrassing if it were discovered that not only is the bank diluting the gold content once received with oxidizable materials, but subsequently passing it off for 999 proof precious metal.
And if this is happening in Russia, one wonder what trickery other Central Banks, with a far lower amount of gold in their vaults, resort to...
h/t Janis
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I would like to know the backers of this TV station - it does not look state backed but who knows.
Can Zero hedge find out who owns that outfit.
Gold is not the most inert metal in the world. Several platinum group metals are more so, capable of withstanding attack by aqua regia, particularly iridium
If you're buying gold from Russians, you deserve 'gold skid marks'...
"Russians don't take a dump without a plan son."
Always loved that line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb0QLxcvowk
In case they were wondering.
i suppose it doesnt hurt to know, but who cares really.....
Having said that, the following is a good point:
"And if this is happening in Russia, one wonder what trickery other Central Banks, with a far lower amount of gold in their vaults, resort to..."
I have an old Eagle that has some spots like this.
Crown gold is not 925, tho, there is no 925 gold. It's 22kt, which is .91666. 925 is the Tiffany standard for sterling silver
This russian gold is .999
U. S. Mint buffaloes are .999.
http://www.intcurrency.com/images/subcategory/GoldBuffalo_bg.jpg
For rust like that, it is way below 92.5.
Platinum metals are not inert. Mercury, because of the subatomic structure which keeps electron orbits from oxidizing the metal, never oxidizes, but is useless as a form of currency because as a commodity, its poisonous and liquid at room temperature.
Not a lot of the coins presented on TV rang like any minted coin, but sounded like plated zinc.
The silver ones, if buried as they say should have gone completely black, otherwise they may be only nickel plated. The orange spots are iron. Whitish oxidation is with aluminum particles. Green spots or brown spots are from copper.
Doré gold in use from the mines will look like gold straight away, but left in an unrefined state will tarnish like bronze. In fact, some of those coins look like tarnished doré gold coins without refinement. Pouring gold into iron billets will cause iron filings to enter the coins.
These coins need to be sent UMMEDIATELY to the Royal Canadian Mint for assaying and refining.
Fransix...you clearly know a thing or few about chemistry and the elements. i hope you share some more of your thoughts on other articles about metals and alternative energy and such.
i wish i could do a lil more, but to show my appreciation for your insight here is a song that i've yet to see anyone dislike: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8xY_UmvNss
Next the Ruskie mail order brides are going to turn out to be
she-males OMG.
Is anything real anymore.
Stop waving the salami at me!
Damn! FIAT GOLD!
What will they think of next? At least Mario's gold never rusts. Play again?
Think of next? They're just borrowing from the ancient playbook. So don't we have some good ideas already of what's next?
History repeats when people forget.
Is there a way find one's old posts... I remember responding to a poster to look out for what's being supplied to the mints (minters?).
Do you remember the article, the exact date and time you responded and to whom?
About 2:45 on your radio dial.
It's what I use...works for me.
For the record, after the record, I trust my silver coins the least. I know, it's so cheap, why sub? Yeah, why check? Who is going to check? Shoot, I haven't authenticated my own coins, so why would I trust that someone else has?
Any suggestions on how to best check silver and gold at home?
Perform density calculations.
Density = mass/volume
Then, check your results against the density in a periodic table somewhere.
I thought about that while sitting in the kitchen because my roomies have a periodic table on the wall. But how to measure the volume so precisely?
Place the gold in a container with graduated (hopefully precise) markings indicating volume. Fill container with liquid and note the volume. Next, remove the gold and note the volume. Find the difference of the two volumes. Now you know the volume of the gold. Weigh the gold. With volume and wieght, calculate the density. Compare the measured density with the known density of gold.
My question was more about the precision required.
Silver coins will also give a nice ringing sound when flipped. The density can be replicated, but the sound can not (another unique quality of silver). Density is also a pain to measure, as you need precision glassware and a good scale.
For gold, density is good enough, as there is only one way to replicate its density--plated tungsten, but that is expensive to do for coins unless it is a major operation, in which case it would be found out fairly quickly. .999 gold will deform under your fingernail, so there is that if you like Maples or Philharmonics.
You mean flip it in the air with a good spin and listen for a ring? It's late and I don't want to miss the catch and wake my roomies so will try tomorrow. What if it rings but I'm not sure if it's a "nice ringing sound"? Is this possible? Just curious, too, any clue why silver has this harmonic quality? Maybe it's a test for plating but not an alloy?
Tested.
My coins seem to have a nice ring when flicked into the air with gold having a much higher frequency, but I'm still wondering if this only shows it's uniformity as opposed to being plated. Wouldn't a solid alloy also have a nice ring, considering this is a harmonic test? The harmonic waves aren't traveling through one medium and then another, so it rings, but an alloy would also be a uniform medium, no?
thes,
"Any suggestions on how to best check silver and gold at home?"
For someone who has trumped "the expanding universe model with a purely relational model" and so interested in Quantum Mechanics you sure have a hard time with the concept of Google and the ZH search box.
Just sayin ;-)
But I also have no self delusions of grandeur and am fully aware that sometimes just asking someone else in a community that attracts great (and greater) minds can give me better results than my own fumbling. Also, I never did find my post using those searches, and this whole testing at home thing is starting to look more like an art form than I anticipated.
"But I also have no self delusions of grandeur and am fully aware that sometimes just asking someone else in a community that attracts great (and greater) minds can give me better results than my own fumbling."
Well that makes two of us.
"Also, I never did find my post using those searches,..."
The way I do it is I seed my commentary (that may need to be referred to again) with certain key words or phrases. Sometimes humor, sometimes oddball. Sometimes I recall what someone said and use that, for instance Quantum Mechanics ;-)
I plug this in and it always comes up for me. It can't be common phrases and you will need a decent memory for my method to work.
"and this whole testing at home thing is starting to look more like an art form than I anticipated."
What was relayed here is true for the most part as far as I can tell. A magnet won't attract to gold or silver...I just tried it. I would strongly advise against digging out your handy Army Field Manuals and attempting to make nitric acid or ANY other acid...LOL.
Seriously...we may not see eye to eye for what ever reason but I wish you no harm.
Here is one I Googled up.
http://www.nationaljewelerssupplies.com/c/gold-testers.html?gclid=CIOU08...
I have never felt the need to test mine. I buy from a reputable brick & mortar dealer...in cash.
Regards.
I suppose I've never felt that much need either. Otherwise, I would've already tested my coins by now. Sorry for thinking out loud and wasting your time.
thesapein
"Is there a way find one's old posts..."
- yes.
I did find the way of tracking myself, but it's a slow way of going when I don't even remember the article. I think all I said was remain skeptical, which was by no means a postulation, so no self credit for me, come to think of it.
I prefer google. Search using this string, or modify it at your leisure.
site:zerohedge.com thesapein mints
Ok, just watching this:
http://rt.com/About_Us/Programmes/XL_Reports/2010-07-18/584212.html
Pithy
Succint.
The rust looks more like there are iron particles on/in the coin that rust.
My guess is some iron dust dropping from the machinery during the stamping process.
If the coin has an iron core, the density is way lower. An iron coin with thin gold plating could be recognized easily with any scale or magnet Any quality inspection would catch that, even by means available at home.
Your comment makes the most sense. If there was any steel swarf on the dies or on the press it would be impressed onto the surface and then rust. Nothing in this suggests that there was an assay done on the suspect coins, so I call BS on this.
The press operator might have used a dirty rag/towel to wipe the dies or transferred the iron alloy onto the planchets.
If there is no followup to this story, then forget it.
yeah i agree gunther... i have 999 Pamp fortunas in sealed cases with little specs of what looks like rust... same shit... ive concluded it was trace baser elements like iron picked up in the stamping process... ive seen it rarely on gold bars (1 ounce) but ive seen it... showed it to a gold dealer and he was like yeah thats nothing... weighed them on balance and weight was fine... the guy's gotta clean it / get it assayed as the other commenters here say
The US St Gauden, no moto, TR coin may be the best gold buy. There are fewer numbers but do not bring the expected upcharge. I dont remember when TR was president, but that is the year range and a very pretty coin. If you want to buy Russian/USSR, the Belarus tractor is the buy. And, yes, mine does have rust.
The "No motto" coins were minted in 1907 and 1908. I have a nice 1908 NM; what a beautiful coin.
This is exactly why I only buy assayed, graded, pre-33 Double Eagles and Libertys. The extra premium is well worth the assurance of authenticity. Lord only knows what there putting in these new coins!
Tungsten, Bitches...
The Chinese are minting near perfect counterfeits -- in PCGS holders!
There is no way out.
Coin World has had articles on this for the past year or more.
That's how they pay the Norks, and the Norks like it that way.
RR... thanks for the alert, but I never buy foreign or new (coinage) gold.
Every gold buyer should have this...
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/product.php?productid=13561&cat=1343&page=1
How do you test them in a holder/slab?
I have gold testing equipment but the plastic sorta stifles testing.
RR...I don't. I should have been more clear. I also buy 22kt gold chains when I can find them at my local pawn dealer.
People do put 22kt lobster claws on 14kt and 10kt chains.
I could not find the fake pandas you were talking about. Do you have a link?
Thanks!
Yeah, but you have to have a Coin World password.
Sorry, but I can't share mine here.
http://www.coinworldonline.com/search.aspx?st=counterfeit&cat=cw
Here is the list of articles at the PCGS website:
http://www.pcgs.com/search.aspx?cx=005421754352028250572%3Agyckckjzsdm&c...
In recent days, counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS slabs have begun to appear on eBay, the online auction site. All of the counterfeit coins/holders seen so far are coming out of China. Alert members of the PCGS Message Boards were the first to notify PCGS of the counterfeit coins/holders.
The coins themselves range from poor-quality counterfeits to well-made fakes. The counterfeit PCGS holders are well-executed, but with minor differences from a genuine holder. PCGS anticipates that authentic coins will eventually be placed into counterfeit PCGS holders in the future, perhaps with elevated grades and/or inappropriate designators (Full Bell Lines, Prooflike, etc.), although none have been seen to date.
The on-line PCGS Certificate Verification is a method for confirming that a particular certificate number matches the information in the PCGS database, but the counterfeiters are aware of this detection method and are now using valid certificate numbers (see below).
PCGS has contacted U.S. governmental agencies, including the FBI, U.S. Customs, the Secret Service, and US Postal authorities, to enlist their assistance in pursuing enforcement or legal remedies against these counterfeiters. Also, PCGS is a member of eBay's CCW Group, which monitors eBay for fraudulent listings and asks eBay to discontinue auctions of suspicious coins and/or suspend violators.
PCGS has called for eBay to stop accepting listings of any rare coins from Chinese sellers. Ebay recently pulled several auctions of counterfeit coins/holders at the urging of PCGS.
RR...thanks for the links. Learn something new everyday here on ZH!
Also...Scary..
http://www.greatamericancoincompany.com/
They have "Replica" or "Copy" on them. No problem here.
But....
http://askaboutcoins.com/2009/08/counterfeit-coins-are-everywhere/
is that the old GA state flag?
North Carolina Battle Flag...1775-1861
c'mon & raise up, take you shirt off, twist it round your head, spin it like a helicopter :)
i represent the A
Not following.......
i represent the A?
Atlanta dood...surely you've heard a rap song or 2 :P
Does slim shadey count?
Slim shady...hotter then a set of twin babies
In a Mercedes Benz wit the windows up
And the temp goes up to the mid 80's
It was probably a tungsten-oxygen compound found on those coins, not an "iron-oxide" rust. Anyone one who would trust the Russkie's evil empire for 24 karat coinage needs their head examined, or better yet, chopped off to improve the global gene pool.
Tungsten doesn't oxidize under conditions that are seen on the face of the earth. You need a hard acid and high temperatures to get a tungsten oxide.
Tungsten is known for it's resistance to oxidation.
Video of gold bars with tungsten inside, found in German gold mint factory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKczs-7BFRI
This is going to turn out to be a crock.
Too easy to assay and refute, which apparently has not been done.
There's more to the picture
Than meets the eye....
Hey hey
My my
Rust never sleeps, Bitches.
Tull, now Young. You're okay.
One of the first gold coins I ever purchased was a 1oz Maple Leaf which I bought from a coin dealer in Southern California. At the time of purchase that coin had and still has today two small rust spots located right on the Queens face. Until this evening, I have never given much thought to this particular coin... However, in light of this story, I may have to take it down to another shop that I now frequent and have them take a look at it.
Take it to a jeweler if you know one. They have no dog in the fight.
Just out of curiousity...
Where are dumpster, akak, that one goldbug broad, and all the other people that usually frequent these threads?
I've been very busy lately.
But it's touching to know that you miss me.
A perfect metaphor for entire Russia and everything that take place ther. Investors in russian/russian assets: beware!
I wonder what Chinese bullio coins are made of. Perhaps from the same led as their paint?
They are making Zeppelins from the same element as well.
Fuck that, ya lyublyoo rossiyah especially Putin holding that gold bar in his hands a while back and kinda sayin 'see what happens when you fuck a stranger in the ass Barry?'
In other gold news...
'In an interview with Reuters Television this week, GFMS Chairman Philip Klapwijk said commercial banks may have had enough unallocated gold on deposit to make up such a tonnage (referring to BIS 385 tones)
Is any more proof needed that GFMS-the go to organization on annual Goldproduction numbers-is a criminally complicit or inept organization when they say the 385 tons of BIS gold was
'just kinda lyin around bullion banks in unallocated accounts'
The plot thickens, the rot quickens the sots chickens?
"commercial banks may have had enough unallocated gold on deposit to make up such a tonnage (referring to BIS 385 tones)"
I believe the Portugese soverign gold connection is more probable. If soverign states begin selling their gold to cover bets made in fiat currencies...well, it's time for a change of leadership in the soverign state. Think about it.
Doh!!!
This is a joke.
If the allegations were serious, the petitioner would have gotten a professional assay performed. The assayer would prove once and for all if the coin is adulterated/salted/fake.
All dude did was get on TV and talk about his coin collection.
Get an assay, then we'll talk.
Gold does not oxidize on exposure to air, however it can have a reaction with organic sulfur compounds creating a tarnish on its surface.
Does the tarnish go away when the coin is polished? If so no problem. Just make sure the coin is wiped after exposure to skin oils. Some very experienced Assayers' will wear jewelers gloves when handling coins.
For Gold coins I can verify the quality of Canadian Mint 1 Troy Ounce Gold Maple leafs, purchased with in the last week or so. Weight and workmanship were perfect. I do not have any recent experience with American coins in the past week or so. But, next purchase will include US Mint Gold Buffallo.
Mark Beck
Raising the specter of deflation when the dollar is already done and it should be talk of default, rust on .999 gold coins - might be really to discourage physical buying in a tight market. Coincidence that it coincides with India entering into traditionally heavy gold buying time? Last thing the Global Financial Mafia wants is gold taking off due to shortages causing a price break from the manipulated paper price.
gold is in severe and permanent backwardation....anyone who believes that the paper price of gold is meaningful about supply and demand has my sympathies and nomination for fucktard of the decade.
yep, agree.
I like Sprotts new adds. Rather then bullion he calls it Sprott MONEY
How do you infer this Mr Bonn?
I've been watching spreads on COMEX gold, I don't see any backwardation in futures prices.
I also know gold interest rates are ridiculously low, so not necessarily higher than dollar rates.
silver bitches!!!!
I love gold bugs!
Always brighten up the darkest of days...haha
Can't trust anyone nowadays.
must be that global warming.
As reported by others, gold will not alloy with many metals, including iron. So the bulk of the coin does not include iron; these spot discolorations are surface contamination. For the pure coins (999 pure), wash with 10% HCl (typically found in pool chemicals and toilet bowl cleaners), and the spot will promptly dissolve off. Do not do this with Eagles, as HCl will extract copper from alloyed gold.
Agreed, expect to be 'flagged as junk' by a bunch of dogmatists though.
I'll stick with my boring pre-1964 US coins...
Have you ever looked at a Morgan under magnification? She's a beautiful lady and will treat you right.
Spitzer had it right 5 hours ago: this is just some poorly designed bad PR for gold, trying to create doubts to drive the price down, or to justify buying up these spotted coins from really dumb Russian citizens (I guess they know the limits of the Russian public schools) for a reduced price. Debased gold coins would be easy to spot, and debased silver coins wouldn't be worth making. And to Thesapein, just drop your coins on any hard surface: the difference in ring tone for good coins is so definitive that you will recognize it immediately (kinda like porn: you may not know what it is, but you know it when you see it).
Does the ring test only work for discovering plated coins? Why would it work for alloys? The shape, density, and uniformity all determine the frequency, right, so an alloy would be difficult to determine, no?
Hi thesapein,
I share your confusion regarding what a silver coin should sound like when dropped or struck. Not least, because I have a variety of silver coins, and no two types sound the same.
I have UK Britannias, a maple, eagles, buffaloes, philharmonics, NWT's and sunshine states.
I tend to balance them on a knuckle, and strike them with something metallic. The Britannias are worlds apart (but they are alloyed with copper), there is a distinct note that resonates for a very long time, like a tuning fork. NONE of the other coins do this. Of these others, no two groups sound exactly the same, and some sound distinctly different to each other. An abrupt 'dink' is all that most of them give. Even the 0.9999 Maple, gives only a dink.
Given that most of these types of coin have a similar silver content, or are pure silver, the difference in sound suggests either that some are counterfeit (I personally doubt it) or that the form and design of the coin has some effect on the sound properties. I am not finding any consistency.
I'm not heavily invested in silver for these reasons of uncertainty; I no more than dabble. I do trust Britannias, but the premiums are rather high. I know that Johnny Bravo gets excited about premiums, but they are also recouped when a coin is sold on. A reasonable premium is an expected part of the coin's market value. It can be a higher percentage for silver, because silver is cheap. If Ebay is a barometer for market value, then the higher premium for Britannias for example, can be recouped in entirety when sold on.
Ideally there would be a Youtube video that clearly demonstrates what different types of silver coin should sound like. It would help to put uncertainties to bed, uncertainties that deter many potential purchasers and purchases. I would have hoped that coin dealers would have realised this and actioned this already; any coind dealers out there please take note.
On the other hand, if this is already available & somebody has the link, then please share it.
this could be a case of Goldman putting rust onto gold coins in order to discredit the gold market
Well, it could.
Nice to see that coin-clipping has not fallen out of vogue. Time to bring back the Trial of the Pyx!
With some very ancient Gold coins such as Celtic Gold coins very heavily plated coins do exist and dealers have been known to use a very fine drill to check that coins are not plated varieties.It is not known whether plated Gold and Silver staters were official or contemporary forgeries.Roman Silver Denarius coins were known to be plated and were contemporary forgeries,Denarius can quite often be seen with cut marks on their rims where merchants have tested coins to make sure they are not plated forgeries.Today it is quite easy to get ancient items analysed at laboratories with x-rays and spectrometers to find out the metal content of an object,i.e. coins or jewellry.The results are shown in a graph form which would show Gold and all the other metals present.It would be very interesting to see a breakdown of what is present in these Russian coins.To check an ancient coin for age you would be looking for any carbon dating deposits on the coin,weight and mass are correct for the metal,coin make-up with regards mix of metals,also wear on the coin,if you view the coin under a glass and see wear and scratches going one way it would usually be a forgery as wear on coins through trade and transactions would be all ways.In ancient times the penalty for a moneyer issuing underweight or debased coinage and pocketing the precious metals could be mutilation (blinding),chopping off the hands or death.The English king Henry VIII officially debased the coinage that much that the copper started to show through,so much so that he gained the nickname "Old Copper Nose".Obviously in Russia things haven,t changed much.It would be interesting to know what these coins were stored in and how they were stored. Having found Gold coins whist out metal detecting I can tell you that generally they come out of the ground as they went in requiring only a wash in soap and water.I have found Gold Rings on beaches where coins are corroded away due to the corrosive conditions but gold comes out gleaming.If there was nothing wrong with these coins at all why would they be recalling them,are they made from debased bars we hear rumours about ?
Forgeries have always been tried throuth the ages,£5 Gold pieces and Sovereigns have been produced in the Middle East with slightly less Gold,in the 19th century fake Sovereigns were produced using Platinum,etc, for every famous coin there is usually a fake.Our £ coins currently used in the UK have been faked with estimates of between 5 - 30% of £ coins in circulation being fakes,these are easy to spot by examining the inscriptions and milling on the rims,however not a lot is said officially.Interesting stuff.
"If there was nothing wrong with these coins at all why would they be recalling them,are they made from debased bars we hear rumours about ?"
Now there's an interesting take on it.
It's the Chinese again bitchez ;-)
The guy in video says that he stored them under an oak tree, which is safer than any bank. Coins stored in vaults did not have any changes. It is quite interesting - I am at loss how can you get rust on gold. The only substance which gives reddish patina on gold is bromine, but it is unlikely that it will be found under an oak. Also, gold can be faked either by using tungsten or lead, both of which are heavy, and neither of them normally gives reddish rust-like appearance when stored. This is a complete mystery. Iron is way too light for making a fake, one can easily check the weight of the coin.
This is not news.
Why is this being reported?
Gold bitchez???
We're savvy here.
And yet, we are given this crap...?
FOUR 9 gold does this same exact trick.
A fitting verse from the Big Guy...
James 5:3
Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
Don't junk the Big Guy.... heh heh.
Not really a King James kinda guy but the Heat should be fun to watch this year.
This is very much news.How much Gold actually exists ? The official figures cannot be relied on,paper Gold exists but it is certain that the Gold (same with silver )it purtains to own does not.If a proper figure of the true tonnage ever comes out you can bet its on the lower side rather than the higher.Like wise fiat currency is also a confidence trick in at least three ways, 1/ no intrinsic or base value.2/Of the cash that exists in the UK and presumably most economies of the world only 5-7% of official recorded money exists in cash,therefore all Governments are scared to death of a run on the banks where there would not be enough cash to pay all the deposits.3/How much is actually printed ? The whole system relies on confidence.Likewise it could be said the Gold price is given a price on the quantities that exists.With paper certificates it is known that the amounts don,t exist.That is why it is important to own physical Gold and Silver as it can,t be printed,manipulated or debased whilst in your possession and also it is one less amount of physical metal the authorities can,t play around with.
Nice. Gov't in on the Cash for Gold scheme now, eh...?
So I wonder if my 1970's dated Kruggerrands can be trusted ... maybe they were minted by Little Timmy and his posse in Fort Knox.
Oh there is always the other option Paul the Octopus.
Sure they weren't just .666's and you were looking at them upside down?
It is in Russian after all... & WTF with that two headed bird?
I don't know but the Eagle representing the Seal of the US President turns it's head from the olive branch to the arrow. Olive branch during peacetime and arrows during wartime. It's currently pointing towards the olive branch and has been since 1945 b/c no war has "officially" been declared since WWII.
Maybe Russia shares the same symbolism. It's possible that during the minting of their double headed eagle, Russia considered themselves in a covert war. I'm just speculating.
Another interesting story surrounds the official US flag. Current stars and stripes (horizontal) design is actually the war time flag first commissioned by George Washington during the Revolutionary War and has been representing the US since the civil war. The Civil flag (during peacetime) is similar but quite distinct. I have personally never seen it staff.
http://www.afn.org/~govern/hornswog.html
Such an easy test for your coins! Anyone can do it.
Just leave them outside for awhile.
And if they are gone in the morning they were real.
That won,t really do it if they are heavily plated or debased,i.e. say .500 instead of .999 in this case.Bury your coin in moist ground in your Garden,leave for a few weeks or months and should come out like it went in.First thing to do is check size (correct diameter and thickness) and weight (Gold has a specific mass and density),check these correspond to what the coin should officially be,minor lower weight ratio should be accounted for by wear on a coin if it has been circulated.Also test with a magnet as Gold and base impurities used in alloy should be non ferrous and therefore should not respond to a magnet at all.Interesting in that in the article above they had several coins like this not just one,glad I haven,t got any,only Russian Gold Coin I have is a pre Russian Revolution Czar Nicholas.
I see the oligarchs have pulled another fast one. Man these guys are good. Just imagine that kind of power. They just water down the gold (stocks, copper, SPX, INDU, etc) to something the deem acceptable and sell it to the dopes in the market.
Boy I 'm sure glad that doesn't happen here in capitalism land. No sirreee that sure don;t happen here do it?
By the way I notoiced rusty colors on mogul hills in my yard today. I wonder what that would be.....
This is why I only buy Maples. There are established test kits to check the coins for correct weight and size. They exist for other types of coins too, but these kits are kind of expensive. So no point in mixing it up too much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohKdBJzwlYY
I may switch to US eagles though. It looks like it might be easier to "whack it" while looking at walking liberty than the Queen's head.
I would never buy anything from China or Russia (not on purpose anyway). I don't even like Perth that much. I don't ever buy gold bars because those look like the easiest to fake. I did buy some 1/10 rounds from APMEX, but I made sure they were APMEX's branded product and I kept the receipt.
Do canadian maples rust? I sure hope not cause they are ..9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
pure
The Russians are crooks and amazingly stupid at the same time. They should just go back to nuking wellheads and staying out of the complicated art of counterfeiting.
<Sigh>...
Some idiot stashes his coins in a damp and at best, "uncontrolled" environment, and then gets on TV because he has no real understanding of metallurgy or chemistry and rants. OK. Stupid people get on TV all the time. Watch daytime crap for a day.
But ZH grabs this crock and we have 200 replies from Gold Bugs masturbating on their keyboard while sitting on the smaug pile, purporting an almost random and incoherant set of conspiracies that would have improved the plots of the Austin Powers series.
Might be time to start lookin for a new blog to hang out on...
do you want to share some 'metallurgy or chemistry' news, or you're heading back to primary school for a repeat?
AFAIR gold is the most inert, non-reactive of all metals; it virtually does not react to oxygen. So the coins have something else in, though interestingly, they have the right measurements. Hence the article is interesting to some of us.
Again, learn something more than the basics about what you wank about, would be my suggestion. The spots have nothing to do with directly consuming or precipitatiting out of the Gold. They are a consequence of its chemistry and the environment its in. There are probably 20 different ways for unidentified "spots" to occur on a pure gold coin, all involving the interaction of contaminants on the surface or precipitating from its environement. Gold might be chemically inert, but it is by no means environmentally inert. It can and does act as a catalyst in many cases, as well. Just a very slow one. The bi-metal junction formed when any other metal contacts Gold can create a small current which will in most cases transform the secondary metal into a salt using environmental factors such as oxygen, chlorine and even nitrogen. All of these are present in air, and the list ofthings present in any less sterile environment than free air is to long to comprehend.
Since you seem to have an almost comedicly rudimentary knowledge, I'll give you an example: Platinum is also almost equally inert, however its a great catalyst. Platinum is not consumed by catalytic converters, but by exposing various reagents to eachother in the presence of platinum, they will create distinctly new byproducts without actually consuming the platinum at all.
The spots are the product of the environment the Gold was in and the reagents it was exposed to. Gold on the sea floor becomes encrusted with BOTH living matter and minerals precipitated out of the water by nature of the bimetal reaction and others. They do not react WITH the gold, but can be attributed to the Golds presence.
Chemistry, bitch. Learn it. Or panic about every wankery fed to the naive to get them riled up. In my opinion, this is a hysterical Troll of gold bugs.
"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air. I hear your breath. Come along! Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare!"
Now there was information in between the wanks. And even a humour here and there, that's more than I could wish for. Thanks for sharing.
For someone who professes chemistry knowledge and belittles others for not knowing, I think you should stay quiet.
Platinum is FAR more inert than Gold. Gold will dissolve in aqua regia quickly, platinum will take weeks. What is "is chemically inert but not environentally"? It's still chemistry going on. Trapped under an oak tree, with no free oxygen, the chemistry to consider is anaerobic chemistry. Plus chlorine is a very reactive oxidising gas, and does not freely float in the air to react for that long, nor will it last long in contact with soil.
What we are seeing is Iron surface contamination, as Iron (III) compounds are orange i.e rust. Copper compounds are usually green (amine complexes), blue (aqua complexes) or black (sulfide complexes). Silver, not having the same d-orbital structure as iron, can only form black or colourless compounds.
Learn some real chemisty bitch!
In Russia, ALL metals rust gold!
In Russia, the GOLD rusts YOU!
The last contango in Moscow?
This entire article is worth - NOTHING!
If you can't keep people, institutions and countries away from buying physical gold - then discredit it. How? Cast aspersions on it's purity, thats how. Talk about a false flag! What a load of crap and most commenter's have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.
Simple remedy - caveat emptor - buyer beware. As with any purchase, do your due diligence before handing over the cash! Doh!!
All that glitters is not... RUSTY GOLD BITCHES!!
I would check the coins with a Geiger counter myself!
radiation bitchez!
Rusted gold coins over worthless paper fiat currency? Hmmmmmmm!
I have no expertise on this subject but I do have some gold, and I throw this out there for comment by any experts who might be reading this blog. I was given a .999 Credit Suisse 1/10 ounce bar that was in a safe deposit box in New Orleans and was under the Katrina flood waters for 3 weeks. When I got it it was covered with chemical residue. I cleaned it up with soap, water and H2O2, but after I finished, it had some spots on it like the Russian coin in the picture.
Rust is a corrosion of IRON. There's no iron in gold....whatever you have/had it wasn't gold.
Theres a lot of Iron in water. Read below to see why your assumption barely qualifies as chemistry.
I understand that, but I'm a coin dealer not a chemist...I've never seen or heard of a real Gold coin with rust spots. I would reject buying or selling such a coin, as counterfeit.
Now, these were buried under an oak tree, not flooded by Katrina. To me, as a dealer, the coin is not .999% pure Gold...end of story. No interest, pass.
If you propose yourself as a value added dealer, I would suggest you look at things with a more scientific and realistic scope. "under an oak tree", from a chemistry point of view is hardly much less reactive than flood water in an industrialized city. Assuming anyone of the mind to bury valuables under a tree is unlikely to use humidity and environmetally controlled containment, it might as well have been submerged. Water always wins. Water underground is always the maximum possible concentration of a solution made of itself and predominent minerals in the dirt and rock. I would suggest that the flood water of Katrina, inside a saftey box where no circulation was present, was probably only slightly more likely to create the same results as buring a coin in dirt for the same time. Containing them in any thing less than hermetic only prolonged the timescale of the inevitable. A ziplock bag might buy you 5 years. A multi player containment vessel might buy you 50, such as bags in a box. A good air tight jar might buy you 100 years or more, but in the end oxygen and water and other minerals WILL leach in. Even glass contains iron and other minerals in small amounts. The humidity in the air inside the jar combined with 100 years of sitting in one place could leech the iron out of the glass onto the jur. COULD. If the jar was shitty glass, and such. In plastic sealed holders under the right conditions it might never happen in 10,000 years. Buried under an oak tree? Ha!
Thank you.
If your gold was under water after katrina, then it recieved a bath in some of the most polluted and toxic water imaginable. The minerals, including iron and many others, precipitated out of the water on to the coins as part of an electrical reaction called Bimetal Junction. Im sure Iron is the primary one, but in that water I would think Aluminum, Tungsten, Tin, Lead and others would also be present. In addition there were plenty of Chlorine, Oxygen, Nitrogen and hydrocarbons. The metals contact the gold and create a small current which causes them to combine with reagents in the water to form rust and other salts which will stick to the surface of the Gold because thats where the current came from. Essentially your coins were slowly and badly electroplated with environmental contaminents. Clean the coins with LimeAway for starts. If they are real Gold, it can't possibly hurt it, and it should get the spots off immediately.
Thank you for your response. Fortunately only one of my gold pieces was affected, the small gold bar.
I only sell Gold and Silver coins that don't rust (wink).
I am not a metallurgist, but I would think that the best and easiest way to be sure would be to do a melt test. It ain't that hard. Perhaps the rust is only some surface impurity? If not, then my guess would be that somebody (most likely from the highly corrupt US-UK financial centers) sold Russia some fake Gold. It also could be that this is simply disinformation to scare off Gold investors.
A specific gravity test for starters.
"It also could be that this is simply disinformation to scare off Gold investors." I doubt that, German Sterligov is biggest russian gold bug that i know and he is supporter of gold standard.
Also, IMHO Russian investors would be better off first getting a sample tested to check its purity before selling it cheap to the Russian CB. If it turns out to be pure, no harm no foul; if not, fob it off on the CB.
i'm starting to wonder about my russian girl friend. is she .999 pure russian? maybe i should bury her out back for awhile. just to be sure.
You can always use the bite test to certify your russian gold, and after you've done that, you might want to validate the authenticity of the most valuable of Russian assets there is: your stockpile of Russian Vodka.
Is that you Jim? A stockpile of Russian Vodka wouldn't last long with you around.
this rust is normal during production
http://lynncoins.com/brown-spotting-gold-coins.htm
That's not rust....
I have seen Medieval Hammered Silver coins that were struck from rusty coin dies and the coins have rust that has literally been hammered into the coin when the die has been struck.Even after circulation and several hundred years in the ground the rust is still present.I have never seen a Gold coin with rust problems and as these coins are supposedly .999 pure leaving 0.1% of base metal I find it very hard to believe they are correct and I personally wouldn,t want one.Personally prefer Sovereigns and Half Sovereign,Krugers,etc, and love antique Gold Coins.Having seen and handled quite a few Ancient Celtic Gold Staters over the years from circa 200 B.C. - 60 A.D.,despite the fact they had no modern production methods but could get individual coins to weigh within 0.1 grammes of each other (no one knows how ) and also debase their coins at constant rates if required,and despite all the problems of the ancient world ain,t ever seen a rusty one.
Rusty dies form dents in the die and leave bubbles on struck coins...they do not transfer rust onto the silver...now in the middle ages these may have been made one at a time in a cast process and used iron...then you can see the rust....but it's not from the die.
I'm from russia and this is really sad news for me :( Thanks to Faber, Rogers and others i'm heavily invested in precious metals and all my gold is in these coins. But at least my silver looks fine i tested few bars with various acids and even cut one in half to be sure that it's not plated. Sadly unlike gold silver bullion is sold 30% over spot here...
Gold is gold, whether it is rusty or not.
Specific density, weight, dimensions-if they all match up...you simply have coins that are similar to the ones mentioned in the NON-news article.
Four 9 Maples have exhibited this very trait.
... and You dont know who is Mr.Sterligoff ? Every dog in Russia does know.
Tungsten is way down on the galvanic series but its oxide isn't red. That oxide looks too much like iron oxide to be possible. Has this story been confirmed?
C'mon, German Sterligoff returned to normal business only months ago. He spent last 12 years in a.... village, doing agriculture .... after russian bond market crash of 1998, and his personal bankruptcy. Now he is trying to attract attention.
(biography article in russian:)
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B3%...
Sterligoff in a village (with photo):
http://www.rospres.com/finance/5745/
http://www.rusbiznews.ru/news/n565.html
You cannot trust him now.
It must be remembered that the last 40 years of Gold's non association is only a part of a 5000 year history on the value of Gold. No fiat currency has lasted more than approx 240 years.
The fact is that when printed paper is given value it must have some basis. To me I am not worried about Gold's value. Govt's will lie and keep the truth from all of us. It's criminal for our elected representatives to do so but the fact is they are either bribed or blackmailed.
It's just a matter of time before truth prevails
Updated DOW chart:
http://stockmarket618.wordpress.com