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Senior Chinese Military Officers Join Iran In Delivering "Punch" To U.S., Propose Selling Treasuries As Arms Sales Punishment

Tyler Durden's picture


And you were worried about Iran. China's People Liberation Army has come out and openly said that the nuclear option, i.e., selling US Treasuries, is now on the table and should be exercised as "punishment" for U.S.' arms sales to Taiwan. China undoubtedly realizes that this is a prime example of sado-masochism as the resultant plunge in Treasuries that would follow would hurt the US certainly, but also have a "mild to quite mild" impact on China's $700 (and likely much greater) UST holdings. Game theory 101 just got interesting.

From Reuters:

Senior Chinese
military officers have proposed that their country boost defense
spending, adjust PLA deployments, and possibly sell some U.S. bonds to
punish Washington for its latest round of arms sales to Taiwan.

The calls for broad retaliation over the
planned U.S. weapons sales to the disputed island came from officers at
China's National Defence University and Academy of Military Sciences, interviewed by Outlook Weekly, a Chinese-language magazine published by
the official Xinhua news agency.

interviews with Major Generals Zhu Chenghu and Luo Yuan and Senior
Colonel Ke Chunqiao appeared in the issue published on Monday.

People's Liberation Army (PLA) plays no role in setting policy for
China's foreign exchange holdings. Officials in charge of that area
have given no sign of any moves to sell U.S. Treasury bonds over the
weapons sales, a move that could alarm markets and damage the value of
China's own holdings.

While far
from representing fixed government policy, the open demands for
retaliation by the PLA officers underscored the domestic pressures on
Beijing to deliver on its threats to punish the Obama administration
over the arms sales.

retaliation should not be restricted to merely military matters, and we
should adopt a strategic package of counter-punches covering politics,
military affairs, diplomacy and economics to treat both the symptoms
and root cause of this disease," said Luo Yuan, a researcher at the
Academy of Military Sciences.

Not only that, but China is now openly escalating vis-a-vis Taiwan.

Chinese has blasted the United States over
the planned $6.4 billion arms package for Taiwan unveiled in late
January, saying it will sanction U.S. firms that sell weapons to the
self-ruled island that Beijing considers a breakaway province of China.

is likely to unveil its official military budget for 2010 next month,
when the Communist Party-controlled national parliament meets for its
annual session.

The PLA officers suggested that budget should mirror China's ire toward Washington.

"Clearly propose that due to the threat in the Taiwan Sea, we are increasing military spending," said Luo.

year, the government set the official military budget at 480.7 billion
yuan ($70.4 billion), a 14.9 percent rise on the one in 2008,
continuing a nearly unbroken succession of double-digit increases over
more than two decades.

Next question: will China follow through on the increasingly populist sentiment to hurt the U.S. If the U.S. is any indication of the strength of populist anger, now may be a good time to take some "profit", or book the loss as the case may be, in that 30 Year position.


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Tue, 02/09/2010 - 15:54 | 223788 naiverealist
naiverealist's picture

"Game Theory 101 just got interesting!"  What an understatement.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 18:11 | 224116 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

China already supplyies arms to the Taliban via Pakistan. They are also behind the N.Korean and Pakistani nuclear and missile programs, and supply missile technology to the Iranians. Add to this the Chinese support to assorted warlords in Somalia, etc. I fail to see what is new (other than some rhetoric).

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 19:17 | 224188 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Damn! So China is a wannabe US. The US created and supplied arms to the Taliban via Pakistan, helped the North Koreans and Pakistanis get nukes and sell weapons to the Iranians. Add to this the US support to assorted warlords in Somalia. What's next? Are the Chinese going to invade Afghanistan and then pay the Taliban not to attack their supply lines?

All the governments are the same... BAD. Erase the state... all of them.

Soory if the links don't go through.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 05:46 | 224674 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Yes, this is absolutely correct, China is selling arms to the Taliban. Correct.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 09:51 | 224752 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

The USA supplied arms to the Taliban to fight Russia years ago. This is a fact. And your point being ????

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 16:01 | 225385 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

The point being that the US didn't control the Taliban as it had hoped it did, it was a grave strategic blunder for the US. Another post-ww2 military conflict failing for the US among many others on the list.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:34 | 224572 Kayman
Kayman's picture

So, if China wants to sell, maybe Ben could buy, say at a 90% discount. China ought to be a little bit nicer to its last best customer. Europe is telling them to take their crap and F**k Off.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 16:00 | 225377 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

And yet both the US and the EU are on the verge of having sovereign debt crises. Not China on the other hand. They are used to third world living standards, whereas the west has been spoiled to live in first world luxury via ponzi schemes. The outlook for the west is looking quite grim.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 15:55 | 223791 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

The opening move has been made - it is only a matter of time before the Pawns exchange blows.


Tue, 02/09/2010 - 16:16 | 223860 Windemup
Windemup's picture

The game has been on for a long time. The first nuclear option was the US bombing it's own citizens on September 11, 2001 in order to secure the world's last remaining oil reserves in the middle east.

 If you think I'm the tin foil hat type then you need to watch the video of building 7 a few more times.


Tue, 02/09/2010 - 16:28 | 223896 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

I do not discount that possibility Windemup , I was just using some dramatic license.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 16:37 | 223924 mtguy
mtguy's picture

And people call me tin foil hat -you're wrapped in the shit!

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 18:44 | 224152 aurum
aurum's picture

yeah well watch this movie and lets see if you call him/her a tin foil again



Tue, 02/09/2010 - 19:30 | 224203 fuu
fuu's picture

I have always wondered why Northwood has not gotten more attention.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 20:51 | 224294 trav7777
trav7777's picture

too many people on Rt 27 saw it happen live.

They all cannot be CIA plants.

As for WTC7, yeah, they probably pulled it.  Skyscrapers don't collapse from fires.

And, there was never an explanation, only lies.  The US gov't is either incompetent or in on shit

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 21:23 | 224324 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

for those who like their tinfoil not so loose:


Tue, 02/09/2010 - 20:57 | 224298 No More Bubbles
No More Bubbles's picture

The only ones wearing tin foil are the ones who think 9/11 was actually Bin Laden and 19 Saudi clowns.  The real conspiracy is the story "THEY" sold the profoundly ignorant and deeply gullible SCAMerican public.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 17:13 | 224000 arkady
arkady's picture

Oh look, a truther!


*sigh* they are everywhere, like cockroaches. 

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 17:22 | 224023 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

I hope your pay is worth your conscience.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 18:52 | 224159 johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

Whatever you do, do not touch their ears or take their "beans and franks" away from a truther. They might slap you or attack you.


*sigh* is right....

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 20:21 | 224252 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Yo. What gives? Your time is better spent finishing your blovel. Thousands are getting ready to slap you:

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 21:06 | 224305 johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

Stupid flu. I'm back, cleaning up several chapters now...

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:32 | 224380 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Your imagination is very keen. I very much look forward to more.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:22 | 224432 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Watch the Aaron Russo interview concerning his relationship with Nicholas Rockefeller.

Those who throw mud at truthers haven't done much investigating. Start with the site Physics911, then
review Pilots for Truth, especially the analysis of flight telemetry data related to the Pentagon. View eyewitness interviews that desccribe a completely different event then the "Official Story".

If you believe the "Official Story", you are absurdly
naive. Have you looked at any data whatsoever?

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:46 | 224462 johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

Have no fear. I won't touch your ears nor eat your beans and franks. But I will look at your sister's ass if she looks like Cameron Diaz.-:)

Mon, 02/22/2010 - 13:40 | 225040 Windemup
Windemup's picture

On behalf of the 3,000+ innocent victims of Dick Cheney and his cohorts and the innocent Iraqui citizens who were bombed mercilessly, thankyou Anon for speaking up.

The turds who want to further the hatrid are responsible for the economic collapse facing the USA today.


Wed, 02/10/2010 - 06:41 | 224690 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

better to be a "truther" than a lier

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 17:27 | 224012 strike for retu...
strike for return to reality's picture


A substantial portion of the American people know (at a subconscious level) 9/11 was an Orwellian false flag attack, but continue (at a conscious level) to pretend otherwise.  As an example notice the use of "truther" in a derogatory manner. The term is both thrown out as an insult and an acknowledgement of subconscious agreement. A person who charts their course without regard for truth will be no more successful than a pilot who flys a plane without regard for the laws of physics.

One has to presume that at the government leadership level around the world 9/11 is correctly understood.  This includes recognizing that 9/11 is mark of substantial weakness on the part of the US government.



Tue, 02/09/2010 - 17:36 | 224059 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

Go away, truther. You discredit the blog.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 17:58 | 224097 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Nobody asked what you think...

It isn't your place to shoo anybody away from here.

Go watch the videos as suggested -- the reptilian part of your brain might actually grasp it if you pay attention.

But I know it is hard to concentrate when you're busy sniping little Television-inspired labels at folks you don't agree with.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 18:23 | 224130 boiow
boiow's picture

what aspect of your extensive research on the subject do you disagree with.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 17:47 | 224080 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

RE: by strike for retu...
on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 16:27


Actually, emphatically, no. No 'they' do not believe, even at a subconscious level, that "9/11 was an Orwellian false flag attack".

Nice blanket statement with Zero evidence supporting it - seems to be a theme for 'Truthers'.

FYI 'Zero' also describes the percentage of Engineers/Architects that have signed that petition.

Petition Supporters as a Percent of ALL Architects and Engineers: ZERO, point, ZERO, ZERO, (wait for it...) ZERO, FIVE, TWO PERCENT (0.000523%).

Or, another way, the percentage of professionals supporting this insane concept is roughly TWO THOUSAND times closer to ZERO than it is to being a mere ONE PERCENT.

Engineers (Active) 1,600,000
Engineers (Retired) 200,000
Architects (Active) 150,000
Architects (Retired) 15,000
Total Population (Domestic): 1,965,000

Signed Petition: 1,028

I could include international E/A too, which are allowed to sign the petition, but you get the point.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 20:37 | 224250 strike for retu...
strike for return to reality's picture

Talk to intelligent Americans who profess to agree with the MSM 9/11 myth ("a bunch of bored Saudi teenagers outwit the American military and force a peace-loving people to start two wars") about the facts of 9/11, and you will see fear in their eyes and understand their conscious refusal to acknowledge reality.

It may be the conflict between the subconscious and conscious of those denying reality that causes them to lash out against those who speak for the truth.  It would also explain why their attacks tend to be emotional rather than logical.  Your counter argument at least does have a logical appeal.  However, in response, I will ask you...

How many people in Nazi Germany signed a petition calling for the end of Auschwitz?

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 19:41 | 224212 geopol
geopol's picture

9/11 has become an American enigma. For many, 9/11 remains a puzzling, inexplicable, phenomenon that defies understanding in its complexities and misinformation. Most people doubt the full truth of the 9/11 Commission’s report, but are unable to accept that people inside the government could be so evil as to allow the deaths of 3000 Americans.

In a study published in the journal Sociological Inquiry, sociologists from four major research institutions focused on one of the most curious aspects of the 2004 presidential election: the strength and resilience of the belief among many Americans that Saddam Hussein was linked to the terrorist attacks of 9/11. The study calls such unsubstantiated beliefs "a serious challenge to democratic theory and practice" and considers how and why so many people linked Hussein to 9/11. Co-author Steven Hoffman, Ph.D., from University at Buffalo, says, "Our data shows substantial support for a cognitive theory known as 'motivated reasoning,' which suggests that rather than search rationally for information that either confirms or disconfirms a particular belief, people actually seek out information that confirms what they already believe.

"In fact," the study reports, "for the most part people completely ignore contrary information. "The argument here is that people get deeply attached to their beliefs. Over the course of the 2004 presidential campaign, several polls showed that majorities of respondents believed that Saddam Hussein was either partly or largely responsible for the 9/11 attacks, a percentage that declined very slowly, dipping below 50 percent only in late 2003.”

The research concludes that people deeply hold on to their beliefs, and that they form an emotional attachment that gets wrapped up in their personal identity and sense of morality—irrespective of the facts of the matter. So given that many people in the US believe that we are the world’s best democracy it is likely that many will tend to seek self-serving justifications for wars and American misadventures and to ignore contradictory information. Therefore, it is at present cogitatively unlikely for many people to even consider that 9/11 was an inside job, or that our government allowed 9/11 to happen.

People can and do change their minds, but this often only happens with repeated continuing factual information being made available from multiple sources. Glen Beck said on national television that 9/11 Truthers were happy about the killing at the Holocaust museum and labeled us hate mongers. Beck’s statement, while completely without factual merit, reinforces emotional misinformation held by many people. These lies make it even more difficult for 9/11 truth seekers to effectively outline the realities .



Tue, 02/09/2010 - 20:31 | 224263 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

+1 Very well put.

The detractors, if not paid internet trolls, have personal issues beyond our ability to alleviate: they don't seek the truth:


Tue, 02/09/2010 - 20:35 | 224274 boiow
boiow's picture


Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:31 | 224378 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture


Sat, 03/20/2010 - 22:58 | 271123 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

think to know.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 00:09 | 224487 moneymutt
moneymutt's picture

I'd don't firmly hold to 9/11 truther version of events but, as a construction person, see no evidence that definitely refutes my, and most others, intuitive sense that the buildings looked like controlled demolition, and I do see plenty of evidence that seems confirm this interpretation.

What is strange to me, is how quickly people reject the idea, not on its lack of merits or technical incorrectness but rather simply because it seems so far-fetched to them. 

A relative asked me: why would people be so crazy to think W, or some other US person would do such a thing, I asked him, a hard core Repub, if thought Bill or Hill Clinton would do something like that, he paused and said, yes, maybe he could be persuaded, if there was I asked him, had he investigated the evidence of truther claims, he said "no" its just the outlandishness of the claims that make them reject, not the evidence for or against. I think its hard to get truthful, rock solid info on this, but there is certainly nothing rock solid to dismiss truthers out-of-hand.

Compare to birthers, who I almost think were created to be a conspiracy theory anti-matter to malign truthers, as if they are equivalent and cancel each other out. While I'm not completely closed to birthers claims, simply because there is not mega solid evidence Obama was born in Hawaii, I do believe there is some fairly decent evidence he was born in Hawaii (old paper announcements, etc..), and little, to no, evidence he was not (not that definitively means he was not, but you've got to prove it to convince me) And even if he was not, the conjectures, at the least, even by most birther scenarios, is that Obama was born on foreign soil to an American citizen and then, within a few weeks brought back to US, raised in US for many years, left to live with his American mother in a foreign county for several years, and then returned to US for junior high and high school while being raised by American grandparents, and then, as an adult, attended college in US and spent his working life in US. I don't know the legal technicalities of "natural born" but he was a citizen of US moment he was born to an American mother, regardless of location, and seems to have lived a thoroughly American life for all but a few years of of his young, elementary school even if birthers are right, they have little evidence of it, and at most, they have a technicality that does not even really, in its essence, conflict with the intention of the natural born requirement in the constitution.

But then there are the truthers, who have some technical evidence of their claims, little to refute their claims, and what if they are right? They raise an issue that, needless to say, goes way beyond a guy being president who does not meet a legal technicality.

And yet, with evidence in affirmation of their claims, and the severity of their claims meriting much more concern than the birthers', people dismiss Truthers as crazy, and the birthers are on Fox News, get passing attention on CNN, networks... meanwhile, truther demonstration on 9/11 that got a protest on the order of magnitude of the Tea Partiers, completely ignored, not even to be mocked, or noted as a crazy, growing movement.

Shouldn't we decide based on what we see and hear and what we confidently confirm by first hand knowledge, or very trusted source, rather than rejecting things just because they seem far-fetched? I, for one, can't find anything to definitively reject truther claims... 

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 09:42 | 224745 velobabe
velobabe's picture

now i am sure ZH is the anti-christ

Thu, 04/22/2010 - 12:26 | 224886 velobabe
velobabe's picture


Tue, 02/09/2010 - 23:15 | 224417 lawrence1
lawrence1's picture

Excellent comments.  People who really seek the truth in things are rare.

Most people are heavily invested in unrealistic belief systems and to change one fundamental belief is to essential question the entire system. Acknowledging a contradiction in one´s beliefs is avoided.  Even belief systems that are in no way religious  with respect to content share the emotional faith in the system.  If reality contact could be placed in an aerosol can and given away free, there would be few takers.  A retired psychologist quipped that he would return to practice when personality implants were possible.





Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:26 | 224557 geopol
geopol's picture


Tue, 02/09/2010 - 21:26 | 224329 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

sorta like teabagger

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 18:15 | 224119 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

It's more subtle than that. Mix the ingredients, make them boil and add some spices, and the opportunities eventually present themselves for the interested parties.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:09 | 224539 Kayman
Kayman's picture

The U.S. government has done a lot of dastardly deeds, but they did not do the Twin Towers job.

I have built steel buildings and the open-wed truss design of the World Trade buildings could not withstand the heat from the burning jet fuel and the impact damage. Once one floor weakened, the entire building(s) started to pancake and it became unstoppable. Period- end of story.

And yes, some determined Saudi Islamic Arabs did the same thing one of our homegrown boys did (Timothy McVeigh)- they slipped through the system, by doing the unexpected.

Damn this government- the Administration and the Congress, but do not divert scarce energy away from the real issues.

Dubya made sure his Saudi benefactors got out of the country and he did something real dumb, by invading an already beaten Iraq, but the U.S. government did not directly or indirectly do the Twin Towers job.

Sorry Pal(s)

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 09:42 | 224746 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture


Can't remember the exact figures, but Structural Steel only experiences a very light weakening (of the order of 15%) at the temperatures experienced with burning fuel (800C v. 2000C melting point for steel). This shouldn't have been sufficient to cause failure (or significant bowing in so far as I am aware). Added to the fact that this argument would appear to discount the central columns and treats the building as a box - which in fact so do official reports interestingly.

Can you explain in some more detail your arguement...

A very interested Physicist.

Fri, 02/26/2010 - 23:18 | 247682 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Kayman, please explain building 7. No jet fuel, no impact, very small & contained fire.  

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 20:18 | 224247 Rusty Shorts
Tue, 02/09/2010 - 20:47 | 224285 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Jeez. It only gets uglier. I was worried about the Russian "Sunburn" systems Iran bought.


- Aside from the estimated 1,400 missiles that China is thought to have aimed at Taiwan, the Chinese navy is equipped with powerful Russian "Sunburn" anti-ship missiles, a weapon much feared by U.S. military strategists.

China also has nuclear weapons.

The above story is 10 days old. Well, I didn't do the math so maybe 11. Floating scrap metal is right.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 21:38 | 224342 trav7777
trav7777's picture

You guys should stick to talking about something where you have some knowledge.

The Sunburn is not the top Russian antiship missile, the Onyx is, or Yakhont which is the export model.  I'd be more worried about an airlaunched Brahmos than a land-based antiship platform.

You people DO understand that the ECM accompanying CVN groups is so powerful that it can make the CVN disappear from the scope, right?  Nevermind the ability of the Navy to actively service ANY radar-emitting target on the surface.

If carriers were shit, nations wouldn't be trying to have them.  India is trying to get 3 CVs in the water, the Russians are hanging onto theirs for dear life; even mighty China is trying to develop them.  If you have naval air power against a navy that does not, you SINK THEM.  It's really as simple as that.

A ballistic missile is NOT the Harpoon; the Harpoon is a CRUISE MISSILE.  The real danger is long-range skimming hypersonic missiles like the Brahmos.

In a serious conflict, we will destroy every single radar facility in the opponent's theatre.  If they turn on a radar to attempt to track our ships, it will be destroyed immediately.  If the attack is by surprise, the war is on and the 2nd attack will not be by surprise.  So, they can sink one CVN at most before we marshall enough air power and missiles to destroy every single terrestrial asset that our satellites can identify.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 22:30 | 224373 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Uh, you got me. I am quite "armchair" at many things on this site. What you say makes a lot of sense.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:54 | 224584 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Here you go with your delusional rantings about overestimated US and Indian (which the west could care less about) strength.

A ship can be tracked via land based/ocean based radars, submarines, etc. New Chinese missiles employ advanced guidances systems, high maneuverability and low radar signature.

You do realize that the brahmos project so far has been an abject failure, right? The Chinese have been making advanced supersonic cruise missiles indigenously (which the US has no defense against) for a quite a while now. Smaller Carriers can be a good thing, however a super carrier battle group can be taken out even through the use of even one emp armed cruise missile. You can have your CBGs, but they won't be that effective against a major power such as Russia or China. China has very effective Anti-satellite weapons, you think that the US can effectively blind China in a heartbeat, what a joke. Maybe it could do so to a fourth rate power like India, however China is in a whole different league. China has SAM/ABM systems that can counter incoming missiles.

Assets that US satellites can identify, lol those precious US satellites couldn't even locate third rate Soviet scud missiles in the Iraqi DESERT. The fact of the matter is that super-carriers are obsolete in modern warfare against a real modern enemy.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 02:48 | 224624 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

according to wikipedia this is based on technology the soviets deployed in 1980! there are MUCH more dangerous things out there, and the russians and the chinese are wise enough not to let their expendable pawns in the middle east have them. anyway the proper strategy for when the us attacks you is play dead. then the us will have to send in ground troops, then you go after those, because the US can't take casualties, and military is run by volunteers and war is unpopular because everyone knows that the only people who benefit are the rich.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 17:35 | 224054 Zippyin Annapolis
Zippyin Annapolis's picture

Carriers have always been very big targets--and they are not needed except for a "conventional war".

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 17:49 | 224075 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

Maybe Denninger should get the Blu-ray disc of this to wake him up, yet here is a low quality version of  China's military parade in 2009 online at.

And yes, aircraft carriers are very easy targets and sinking one would cost USA taxpayers HUGE HUGE $$$$. Modern warfare is not WWII tactics, so old guys like Karl should remember this is 2010 and not 1945.

PS: Japan is right now trying to get rid of USA MIL base there. Their citizens want it gone from the country because Americans are causing uptic in crime, Americans have raped Japanese citizens, etc.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 21:19 | 224310 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture


Dewd. Denninger just junked you. Not cool.

Yo, Karl, here's '09:


BTW, I was with you on the bank run idea. I could only take out so much.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 10:09 | 224759 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

Thanks you and yes more Americans need to do bank runs and remove all their funds from their 401k, etc as well. Sadly, those with money market funds could easily be TRAPPED via the newly enacted law. One of my close friends talked to Charles Schwab about liquadating their 401k and it was a nightmare just to legally get their rightfully owned funds back(!). Since when is it that if you have money somewhere that it takes jumping through MANY hoops to then get it back.



As for USA's aircraft carrier and Denninger...

Could not care about being marked as 'junk' as while not being the most brilliant person, if China sinks a USA aircraft carrier as Denninger seems to point to as being the reason USA rules the Earth, am sure China would have in the area the resources to reclaim the now sunken assets. China could then analyze the USA technology while also now being able to use the newly acquired by China USA weapons. One needs to truly think things through when they decide to go to war. There are many situations one must consider before committing resources in the battlefield and Denninger may need to fully appreciate what going to war means on many levels including having the enemy gain possession of your technology/bombs/etc.


One also needs to look at the citizens of a country and how easy it is to disrupt their supply chains. For food, as am example, Russia and China  have a very low usage of resources to distribute food to the people. The USA uses a heck of a lot of energy to distribute food to the people due to the proximity of the resource as it pertains to the location of the people.

i could go on without factors, yet will stop here for the time being

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 12:20 | 225007 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Yep. Coupla' nukes detonated above the Lower 48 would instantly end all the entitlement programs. And, well, a lot of other things, too. Like sushi happy hour. Dammit.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 12:45 | 225046 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

Agreed, an EMP attack would cripple the USA in more ways than i care to mention here. So then one needs to understand how such a weapon would affect USA, China, Russia, etc. Which country and their citizens would be most affected, how so, and how fast could a solution to the most critical needs of the people be worked out and implemented.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 21:29 | 224334 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Junk.  A ballistic missile would have a very low probability of achieving a direct hit on a moving target.

2000km away?  Load of'd have to accurately track the CVN at that range to guide the missile.  The US's ECM would light any Chinese radar systems the fk up and prevent such a track.  Nevermind that at the outset of the war, our missile systems would actively suppress any launch capability on the mainland.  Were such a ballistic missile to be launched, the CVNs have 30+ kt speeds and would get up and haul.  Let's see a BM hit a target moving at that speed while coming down from near space.  Not gonna happen

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 21:40 | 224345 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

I see this maginot line belief everywhere - to underestimate your enemy and have a inflated idea of your own capabilities is the gravest of errors and can be catastrophic to your military

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 01:57 | 224586 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Do you even have a vague grasp of terminal guidance issues with a ballistic missile warhead coming in at hypersonic reentry velocities from lower space????

In the 12m that it would take for this missile to travel 2000km, a CVN at flank would travel over 6nm.  GOOD FREAKING LUCK hitting a moving target at that speed with what?  The terminal guidance radar on a ballistic warhead??  It would be jammed out of existence.  The thing would come down blind and slap the waves.

Ballistic missiles are not new technology and there is a REASON that all other nations have pursued skimming antiship missiles.  Look, the missile to fear is the Brahmos as it can be launched over a gigantic operational radius provided by the Su30MKI, essentially all of the relevant Indian Ocean from Malacca to Hormuz.

If you want to hit a CVN with a ballistic missile, you need to get a nuke near it.  Expecting to smack the deck with something akin to glorified artillery is foolish. 

Also, good luck getting your ordnance out with the entire carrier air wing and support frigates bombarding all of your radars and  missile emplacements.  Also nevermind that we have ECM so powerful it can cause arcing at range.  You'd have to physically find the carrier, track it, and maintain track while it moved and while we tried to destroy your C&C apparatus.  Despite the physical size of these things, the ocean is a lot bigger.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 07:15 | 224704 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

Point taken trav7777

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 10:01 | 224761 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Unlike some of the 1-million (yearly) chinese PhD's, I havn't spent years studying mil aerospace.

But if I was designing this, I would have a satellite-based guidance (guessing passive IR, visual, EM), linked to the delivery vehicle by UV laser or somesuch.
I would add high-G manouverability to the warhead, with perhaps IR/radar decoys.
Lastly the warhead would be hardened agains nuclear AA, like the currently-being-designed gen of US UAVs.

On the other hand, with my tinfoil hat on, this could be the work of Rumsfeld and his "if we can think of it, they must be doing it" opponent research group, which would provide ample justification for accelerated investment in Energy-Beam Weapons.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 11:19 | 224884 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

You do not need a nuke, you can use an emp warhead and take out the whole CBG. That is why China's newer missiles have taken US Electronic countermeasures into account, the infamous "carrier killer" modified df-21 was unveiled last year. A barrage of missiles (either ballistic or cruise) are considerably cheaper than maintaining supercarrier fleets. Of course the MIC will support their highly profitable legacy systems to death even at the expense of US defenses. Let's not forget the infamous f-117 incident in serbia. The US military is built up more so on hyped fear than actual capability against a major power.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 02:03 | 224593 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Maybe a third rate Indian ballistic missile, but newer Chinese ballistic missiles are more than capable. Then again they don't need to use BMs with the advent of cruise missiles.

China has developed technology to maneuver through advanced radars, the China of yesterday is not the China of today. Although the India of yesterday really is the same delusional failed India that is today. LMAO, US missile systems suppressing mainland launch capability please, China can more than defend itself with its SAMs, on the other hand the US partiot system was actually proven to do harm to the US military than it actually helped during the second gulf war. With the advent of EMPs the whole CBG does not need to be taken out at all. The fact of the matter is that the US is a declining power and that post-"independence" India (with its slave mentality) never even was a real power to begin with.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 16:39 | 223926 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

Denninger is apparently clueless about the real weapons China has amassed. Worse still, the more (make that less) i read his writings the more the reality he is blinded by his religion of the market is. In other words, Denninger actually still thinks the market can be put right and be law abiding.

Well, a fool and his money soon part. Just hope Denninger is not Cramerizing his money by drinking his own poison.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 16:49 | 223941 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

My thoughts exactly !

"Denninger actually still thinks the market can be put right and be law abiding."

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 16:55 | 223948 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture


Tue, 02/09/2010 - 17:04 | 223974 MarkD
MarkD's picture


He sometimes has the "we are invincible" attitude. Like his stuff.....but.



Tue, 02/09/2010 - 17:05 | 223980 Thoreau
Thoreau's picture

+10 Karl is brilliant in some areas, and freakin' clueless in others. The MSM is playing him like all the other sheeple he constantly harps on.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 17:39 | 224045 Yophat
Yophat's picture

+100  Karl really nails it....and really flubs it!  This one is an over the top flub!

US Naval College Review write up by Nan Li and Christopher Weuve on "China's Aircraft Carrier Ambitions"

China Expands its Navy's Reach

Since the end of the Cold War, China has dramatically expanded its navy, especially its submarine fleet, adding dozens of attack submarines since 1995. During the same period, the U.S. attack submarine fleet has shrunk to 53, and it is projected to fall to 41 in 2028. The U.S. fleet is already stretched thin by the demands of ongoing operations. Australia, India, and other Pacific countries have taken note of the shifting balance and have responded with their own naval buildups, particularly of their submarine fleets. Unless the U.S. stops--and reverses--the decline of its own fleet, U.S. military superiority in the Pacific will continue to wane, severely limiting the Navy's ability to operate in the region, to protect U.S. interests, and to support U.S. friends and allies.

Washington: A Chinese submarine approached a US aircraft carrier in the Pacific Ocean last month and surfaced within firing range of its torpedoes and missiles before being detected, The Washington Times reported Monday. The newspaper said the encounter highlighted China's continuing efforts to prepare for a possible future conflict with the United States despite the administration's efforts to try to boost relations with theChinese military.

I’ve been writing about the vulnerability of U.S. Navy surface ships, particularly large expensive aircraft carriers, against other countries’ anti-ship cruise missiles and torpedoes for awhile, now. Specifically, I’ve focused on the latest crop of supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles and supercavitating torpedoes, even though some argue that long-range wake-homing torpedos pose a greater threat to our warships than the supercavitating variety.

Well, that debate may be a moot point due to China’s development of an advanced long-range anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) "kill weapon" that can reportedly target, track, and destroy U.S. surface ships, including aircraft carriers, in a single strike without being nuclear tipped, due to its size. This makes the ASBM "kill weapon" the first ballistic misssile to be successfully developed specifically to attack surface ships. According to a U.S. Naval Institute (USNI) report, the missile has range of 2000 kilometers (2000km) (approximately 1,240 miles) and can reach an aircraft carrier or any other surface ship within 12 minutes at that range.

USNI also reports that the Chinese ASBM "kill weapon" employs a complex guidance system, low radar signature (i.e. low-observability, or "stealth" aspects), and "maneuverability that makes its flight path unpredictable, and thus better able to evade tracking and interception.

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

A base in the Gulf of Aden area would constitute the first formal Chinese overseas military base.
(China established ostensibly non-military overseas facilities in Namibia and Kiribati in the early 1990s as support for the manned Shenzhou space program.) It reflects China’s growing overseas interests, as well as its expanding military capabilities, including a growing ability to operate far from its shores.

Quoting unnamed sources, the United Evening News reported that the submarine belonging to China was spotted at an area 24 nautical miles or 45 kilometers off the Zuoying naval base in Kaohsiung City, last Wednesday morning.

According to the report, the submarine was first discovered by one of the navy's anti-sub S-70C helicopters, but the submarine was allowed to leave later on.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 18:00 | 224100 velobabe
velobabe's picture

who are you? love your name.

Tue, 02/09/2010 - 21:16 | 224313 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

Yeah. I second that motion. Well, more the post. I think I've seen a blog with that name before...probably forgot to bookmark it. Wait, I don't bookmark anything...NSA is watching. (fuck you Fednerdz)



Wed, 02/10/2010 - 16:28 | 225452 Yophat
Yophat's picture

LOL Yeah that's of these days I reckon I'll get turned away at the airport....oh well

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 02:02 | 224592 trav7777
trav7777's picture

The US Navy was not operating wartime ASW during this stunt by the Chinese sub.

In wartime, our own attack subs would have sunk this Chinese piece of shit.  And, the surface choppers would have been operating active ASW.  It would have been detected and sent to crush depth violently.

China couldn't mount an amphibious invasion of Hong Kong, much less Taiwan, nevermind contesting our navy in a blue water engagement.

Look doofuses, Pakistan has Chinese subs and these were used in the Kargil War, where India used its carrier battle group to rain down damage on the Pakis where necessary.  Nothing got close.  Wartime ASW is NOTHING AT ALL like this maritime stunt pulling posture

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 10:15 | 224779 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Odds of you being a chinese navy intel shill gulling dumb yankees into non-productive complacency: 45%

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 12:49 | 225050 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

So you claim. The US navy was not even able to detect the Chinese sub to begin with. The only stunts being pulled are by the US military. China would have taken out the ASW, before they would even know what hit them.

The US couldn't mount a successful takeover of Afghanistan, and still can't for almost 9 years now.

China sells export versions to the Paks, they did not sell them their supersonic cruise missiles to use, for which carriers have no defense against. The only posturing is coming from the US and India. The US cannot even deal with the failed state of afghanistan and India cannot even deal with the failed state(s) of pakistan and bangladesh.

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 16:46 | 225511 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Afghanistan is doing just fine!  95% global market share of heroin....that's a pretty tough nut to crack!  What happened to the golden triangle?  Oh yeah General Khun Sa told Bo Gritz he would turn over 20 years worth of documents disclosing all his Fed contacts.


Long as we keep pumping enough money to keep what's left of the Taliban alive....should continue to do quite well.  Probably ought to expand into Pakistan though if we intend to capture more market share....

Wed, 02/10/2010 - 17:17 | 225555 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Yet the war in pakistan is an abject failure. The pakistanis do not have the same goals as the americans, they are not allies by any means. The americans thought that were and are now dumbfounded, the chinese once again have played the americans. As for the heroin you do realize that originally it was China that started the mass exportation of illegal narcotics into the US to begin with, right? In the 50s/60s. A considerable part of that golden triangle was in China. So did Russia and Russia's satellite states. They were drugging the west and were corrupting western business leaders and politicians. It worked out pretty well for them (at least the chinese, anyway), huh? Just look at the degenerate state of american youth today. You think they are capable of dealing with a dollar crisis, they can barely take care of themselves.

Thu, 02/11/2010 - 13:45 | 226913 Yophat
Yophat's picture

That's all fine and dandy....but US (and UK) business interests financed (and still support) Russia and back to square one!

FYI - Russia and China aren't in the best shape either.  Drunks and the poisoned!

Thu, 02/11/2010 - 17:33 | 227405 velobabe
velobabe's picture

tell us more. i was on your site, you are heavy. have you ever heard of david bonderman with TPG?

Thu, 02/11/2010 - 23:33 | 227961 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Nope.  What should I know?

What more do you want to know?

Roscoe White (code name - Mandarin) killed JFK (shot to throat and head)...multiple shooters though. Diary discovered years later turned over to the FBI. Teach JFK to fire Allen Dulles. Ironic how Oswald could do shooting, run down several floors, and have drink with boss in 72 seconds. Or that cops let Ruby walk up and shoot Oswald.  At least Oswald was smart enough to surrender in a crowded theatre telling everyone loudly that he was unarmed and surrendering peacefully.  As the CIA agent set up as the patsy...he had knowledge of the whole operation....hence the need for the planner - Ruby to rub him out.

Ruby was a chain smoker until they told him that Oswald was dead....then he went back to being a non-smoker.

If you are curious and dare take the red pill....make yourself a DVD -

Fri, 02/26/2010 - 09:09 | 246467 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Not these goldbug/austrian school conspiracy theories. Take it do infowars. This is all speculation. There are also equally credible theories which state that the soviets and the cubans assassinated jfk.

Fri, 02/26/2010 - 09:22 | 246475 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture


I should add that it is not fine and dandy. The Chinese exported drugs to the US and they accomplished demoralizing a whole generation. The US is in a disastrous shape now. This the end of Western civilization. The finance class is no longer willing to support the nation, they are too myopic and materialistic, this has happened time and time again through-out history. Remember the Ottoman empire and all the empires preceding it?

Fri, 02/26/2010 - 14:18 | 246951 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Didn't the British show the Chinese how to play that game?

Also drug imports to the US are controlled by the CIA....couple dozen books on it.  Can start with Gary Webb who committed suicide a couple years back by shooting himself TWICE in the head!


Tue, 03/09/2010 - 14:51 | 259339 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Actually China is following the American model, not the British model in terms of economics. Politically China is following a hybrid Confucianist/Communist/Manchu system.

Drugs were imported initially into the US post-1950 heavily by first the Chinese and then by the Soviets and their partners in Latin America. Mao understood the ability of drugs to corrupt a society. KMT China was a world apart from CCP China. Considering what has occurred since then, and the exponentially increased level of decadence in the US it has appeared to have worked phenomenally. Understand that 1971 changed the whole dynamic. Initially the Golden triangle according to the 1970 CIA map included more of China's Yunnan province a smaller portion of what was Vietnam, Burma, Laos and Thailand. China was known to assist the Northern Burmese and the Thai. This changed (including the map of the golden triangle) when Nixon went to China to establish relations with Mao.

Ever since that point the CIA has actually aided and abetted the drug trade. In fact the reason that the US clamped down on the Swiss banks last year, was to attract more drug money into the Cayman Islands and other British Caribbean Commonwealths. The majority of the banks down there are actually controlled by US banks and then British banks. The reason being of course that after peak oil hit in the US, in addition to the costs of the Vietnam War and the Great Society spending programs the US could no longer afford their Bretton-Woods status. Ever since that point the US was been somewhat complacent in the "war on drugs" and has actually encouraged drug dealers to hold their drug wealth in dollars abroad to buttress the dollar and the US financial system as a whole.

Look up the guardian article.
"Drug money saved banks in global crisis, claims UN advisor"

Also search for "Red Cocaine" by Joseph D. Douglass, yes I know at first sight the title also seemed to be a bit hyperbolic to me. I believe you can find a presentation made by him regarding the subject on youtube or Google Video.

In addition "Super Imperialism" by Michael Hudson.

Sat, 03/20/2010 - 17:19 | 271014 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Thank you for the reading suggestions...may I suggest "Called to Serve" by Bo Gritz in return!

Fri, 02/26/2010 - 08:56 | 246458 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

You are clearly delusional. Western civilization is done for. Look at the US and UK today, all they can do is make one strategic blunder after another, their time is finished. Parasitic Business interests do not mean much if the host nation is irrevocably damaged. Look at the industrial production of the US/UK, their bases to support their respective economies are whithering away. China and Russia are only using business interests to further their political and military gains.

Perhaps not Russia, but China is in good shape. America is in a much worse shape by far. The US banking system is structurally broken along with the whole economy and the US military is stretched thin.

Fri, 02/26/2010 - 14:19 | 246956 Yophat
Yophat's picture

LOL Its quite ironic to state that someone else is delusional then turn around and make a delusional statment about China being in good shape!

Tue, 03/09/2010 - 14:42 | 259329 Anonymous
Anonymous's picture

Sorry, let me clarify. China doesn't necessarily have to be in tip-top shape, it only has to be in better shape than the US. This is what Chinese leaders understand. A collapse in the dollar would hurt over-indebted obese sedentary Americans living in a consumer bubble of unrealistic promises a lot more than it would the Chinese CCP. The core base of the Chinese CCP is still the 800 million peasants in the countryside who have not been swept of their feet to say the least by the recent economic growth in China. The migrant workers in the cities still have farms in the countryside that they can return to. Strategically China is in arguably a better shape than the US.

You think Joe Smith (or Stack) is going to enjoy seeing his dollars being halved in value in addition to his home being taken away and his car being towed? Talk about social unrest.

Sat, 03/20/2010 - 17:29 | 271016 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Sorry but the dollar isn't collapsing and China has little if any control over it.

The US must borrow more this year than the rest of the world combined....but that has been orchestrated.  One key indicator is letting China play currency hedge games for over decades.

Who knows what the real situation with Joe Smith/Stack....but I agree with you the outlook is dim....hence my blog post on it -

That said, China isn't anywhere near as good as you say.  They have problems feeding people and right now most of their water is poison....and the food isn't doing so hot.

A little story -

A few years back China thought they would cut out the producers in the mink coat business (they were buying mink pelts from US then making coats for the Russians).  They bought a thousand mink for breeding from the US and took them over to China.  In less than 6 months only 15 remained.  They had to give them bottled water and feed them chickens that the peasants would kill each other over in order to keep them alive....and even at that....they obviously weren't doing so hot.

Mon, 04/05/2010 - 03:46 | 286249 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

Of course the dollar is not collapsing at this very moment, however that does not preclude it from doing so in a few years time. China can have much influence on the value of the US dollar of course given an opening such as the one they had in September '08 when Russia was urging them to exit their position in US dollar-denominated debt. In any case China still will continue to play the game with the gambler Uncle Sam and his degenerate ponzi schemes until the US economy implodes on its own. China still wouldn't mind acquiring some key technological assets and resources that it can obtain from the US in the meanwhile. 


If the US economy were to really collapse then the value of the dollar would decline versus commodities. A currency is fundamentally dependent upon the confidence of it deemed by its holders and the productive base of the nation that backs it. By arithmetic alone the ability for the US to pay off its debts without having it central bank resort to monetization is nil. The US economy right now is at a very delicate stage. Any meaningful ramp up in the economy with the concomitant increase in commodity prices (remember Crude at $147) and hence "demand-pull" inflation would lead to consumers once again would resort to allocating more of their income to commodity expenses rather than loans. This dynamic would lead back to the summer of '08 and the slow tightening up of liquidity leading to a black swan styled event in the fall of '08. The difference being that this time all the world governments would have left to do is monetization of their unwisely spent government debt. In the case of Japan, eventually the Japanese government will be forced to liquidate their foreign exchange holdings once the demographic crisis hits in a few years time in any case. The position of the UK is even less desirable.

Now of course I'm not arguing that China does not have its own set of difficulties, however relative to the US they are better off. Again do you believe that the average obese drunken american blithely accommodated to high living standards will not react when they realize that their government has deceived them and they are reduced to at least second world living standards? You may have another thing coming for you. Almost all americans now are partial to either the "liberal" democrats, the "neocon" republicans or the neo-confederate libertarian sect. You really believe that the third-largest nation on earth with the most weaponized populous is not going to respond? Even the US government would not be able to halt such an intractably addled marauding mass (the tea parties are just the beginning, even some neocons have regretted associating with them). The risk of the US as we know it even surviving the impact of the downturn after the culmination of the final bubble (The speculative US Treasury/dollar situation) is very real indeed.

Mon, 04/26/2010 - 13:59 | 318333 Yophat
Yophat's picture

The US could tell China to shove off and do just fine!  In fact we would do very well if we completely shut our borders to Chinese imports and told them to sell kites and big screen tv's to the Europeans!

We would do even better to stop funding the IMF, UN, World Bank, GATA, etc etc etc.  Also if we told the world's largest land holder, the Pentagon, to close the 700+ bases around the world and sell off all the crap.

We could quadruple prices on wheat and rice!  Stop giving Russia, China, India, etc etc etc technology.  Basically just take over Canada and Mexico....since its close to that point anyways.  Gives us the oil we need!  Pull out of the Persian Gulf and let Iran and Saudi fight over the leftovers.  No more foreign more food handouts.  Let the Russians and Chinese starve to death under communism.  The Socialists will all follow shortly!

But none of that will happen when dirtbags like Eisenhower (don't like that Operation Keelhaul), LBJ, Carter, Reagan...I mean Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama get elected and work for the "enemy"!!!

American people are dead last on the list of priorities

Wed, 04/28/2010 - 12:12 | 321915 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

I don't think that you are fully grasping the implications of simply telling China to "shove off". The initial shock would devastate an already disillusioned public. While in theory what you say may have some merit, in reality you also have to take into account the social element and the political implications. 

I believe that Mexican oil production has already peaked out. Canadian tar sands do hold promise, however the EROEI is very low for Tar Sands. The US needs to develop a sustainable alternative energy for the future. Current and projected conventional and economic Unconventional oil supplies will not cut it.

There is also of course the trillions in drug money sustaining the financial system that would disappear without US complicity.

The Teabaggers, many of whom share a common Confederate ideology are becoming a threat to not only the current political establishment of Neocons and self-proclaimed "Liberal" Democrats, but also to the US as a whole. Do you believe that the average Joe will enjoying awaking one day and seeing the value of their money halved and perhaps halved again the next day? The average American has been fed lies and false promises, and have built their whole lives on such facile assumptions of safety and security, that is not going to be easy to reconcile for them once the financial system does collapse.

This is why I am saying that while other nations such as China and Russia may face deep recessions with the accompanying public anger the situation for the US is far worse. Imagine the millions of average Obese drug-addled Joe being forced  to go cold turkey in terms of diet, drugs, money, etc abruptly without any sort of preparation or forewarning.

That being said the American people were complicit in accepting and encouraging the bubble formation. They accepted Friedman's mythology, Neoliberalism, the Neocons, the modern Democratic party, etc. Now they will have to pay the consequences for their valued delusions. 



Wed, 04/28/2010 - 16:30 | 322628 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Telling China to shove off is far worse for the Chinese than for the US.

PEMEX wouldn't know an oil deposit if it bit it in the arse!  There is a ton of oil down there but they'll be forever arguing about whether they will open it up to companies with the capability of finding and exploiting it!

The drug money aspect is a problem....we could just take over South America while we are at it....already building 7 new bases in Columbia to manage the cocaine trade.

Teabaggers are no threat.  The system is dead whether Joe Blow Smuckatelly wants to acknowledge it or not!  The whole left vs. right facade (Elephant/Donkey show) is coming to an end!  No measureable difference...and people are finally starting to wake up to that fact!

Imagine billions of Chinese slowly starving to death! ....or millions of drunk Russians! The reality at the end of the day is people (no matter what flavor) are only 3 days or 9 meals away from riot at any given point in time!

LOL if there is a difference between the "modern" Democratic party and the archaic one!  Republicans and Democrats just plain suck!  Time for the independents to rise up and squash them! American's were complicit because they were lied to and they are ignorant and gullible.....but watch out when they wake up! 

Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities -Winston Churchill

Wed, 04/28/2010 - 18:03 | 322778 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

Actually that is my point, it would be worse for the US than China if China were told to "shove off". Have you not seen the teabaggers? The threat of social unrest is very real. These are not US conservatives, these are CSA conservatives, loyal to the ideals of the CSA.

As for Mexico, please you're not going to find another Saudi Arabia down there.

I thought you said that you wanted to close down the overseas military bases?


Actually the average American still accepts the neocon/liberal democrat paradigm. Where have you been? The only reason why the teabaggers have not yet started their own independent political movement is due to the fact that the majority of them are still under the control of the Neocons. How long the Neocons will be able to tame them is another question altogether. Letting go of idols like RR has still not happened.

The majority of Chinese live in the countryside, they could absorb such a shock so could Russia. It is the US that is at risk. Again credit junkie obese pill popping average Joe is going to have to give up his habit overnight. Tell me where are all of the manufacturing jobs going to come from? It can't happen overnight.

The old Democratic party was pro-Southern and pro-Segregation, don't be so facile.

And what happened to Churchill's empire? It went bankrupt, only to be bailed out be the US. This time around both the US and the UK are going bankrupt. No one will be there to help out the US.


Fri, 04/30/2010 - 18:42 | 326295 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Have you been to China?  Seen the crap they eat and drink on a daily basis? Little story - a couple years ago in the mink fur coat business....China thought they would cut out the US producers (China makes coats for the Russians who are buying again due to price of oil)....China purchased 1,000 of the best breeders and flew them back to China....within three months less than 10 were barely alive....and they were feeding them food most folks over there would consider a delicacy and strictly bottled needless to say....China is still buying mink from the US.

No different there than the US in terms of "countryside".  In fact far better in the US with plenty of food.  Like I stated earlier....the Russians and Chinese would starve to death without the US....along with a good portion of the rest of the world.

Who needs Saudi Arabia....have you seen how much oil Iraq will be pumping out in a year or two?  Have you seen what's happening in Brazil with Petrobras?  Do you know anything about PEMEX or gulf exploration requirements?  or PEMEX operational efficiency/capability? or a clue as to much oil is in that area relatively untapped to date due to Mexican constitutional issues over outsiders?  

You're really freakin' out about the teabaggers......good!  Hopefully they spark some fear in the socialist masses! Personally I think they are quite toothless....but time will tell the story for better or worse!

The whole world is bankrupt...including China....and Russia for that matter.  The price of oil is way to high and a result of trading games.  The US reserve (largest in the world) was filled to the brim for the 1st time on Dec 27th.  Japan's reserves are full to the brim.  China's reserves are full to the brim...though they are building more as fast as they can.  Land storage is chock full thus people resort to floating storage (much more expensive) with thousands of boats sitting idle and full in the ocean.....and that's with Saudi killing 1/3 of their production.  Meanwhile demand is at 80's levels and falling.

But its not big deal....the bankruptcy is planned.  The world has been stuffed full of debt until its spitting back up through the gavage!  Now its time for the inherently deflationary side of debt to show its titanium fist!  As the nations wriggle and convulse from debt withdrawal (evaporation of money) the unseen hand will be there with cash.....but strings attached!  The end to the great experiment....time to pick one of two choices - 1) One world government controlled by the elite (read chipped obedient surfs) or; 2) Revulsion (revolution) against their efforts and upheaval of the current systems.

Personally for the US I think it will be option 3 - descent into anarchy and chaos while the rest of the world ends up in option 1 or 2.  Perhaps an analogy is in order....two guys decide to rob a bank....they plan it out and take on all the risk that entails with anticipation for the monetary reward/power....they conduct the operation and successfully rob the bank....what now...they've risked their lives....and those they might have taken all for this reward/power....why stop now when one of them could have it all!

Hence when the bird appears to be in the hand....expect all hell to break loose in the power grab to see who will be king for the day!

Fri, 04/30/2010 - 21:50 | 326490 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

There is a large difference between urbanization in China and the US. The US is one of the most urbanized nations in the world. Actually the US is much more susceptible to any type of massive starvation at least in relative terms. If you were to look at the way that the US food production and delivery system is designed it is all based upon long-range vehicular (primarily truck based) transport. In the event of say a massive hike in crude prices while the purchasing power of the dollar rapidly decreased, you would enter a situation where the US populous would not be able to afford to buy food. In addition in the event of war, say if an emp attack were launched over the US there are predictions of up to say a 90% die-off rate.

I thought you said that you wanted the US to leave all of its extended military engagements abroad, I presume that would include Iraq. Untapped oil reserve in Latam? What are you expecting another SA? Keep dreaming You do realize that you would need to find not 1 but 5 Saudi Arabia-sized fields before 2030 to keep pace with demand right? Non-OPEC global crude output is supposed to peak as early as 2011. The new fields found are only NEEDED to maintain current levels.

Toothless? They are toothless now as the Neocons are still in charge of them. They are still into the whole God Bless Israel bit, which is really the only issue that the Neocons strongly support.

Yes Saudi Arabia cuts production now, as there whole regime is maintained to maximize profits overtime. By the way you do realize that tanker rates are sinking right? Do a few searches tanker rates are getting killed now that the contango is gone. The reason for the shark decline from 147 to the low 30s was due to the excess production that had estimated higher demand. So there was a glut of oil on the market for a while which caused the massive slide. Now with demand down oil is still over $80.

And that revolution presumably by the teabaggers is going to be all fun and games? In any case Russia and China do not support the Western world order. They are only going along with it for now. There are clear fault lines, i.e look at SCO vs NATO and Russia and China's support for Iran, not Israel. That is why I'm saying that the economic downturn will hit the US worse and may cause the US to potentially collapse altogether. That is what the teabaggers want. Again think of them as pampered obese drug fiends. Force them to go on a diet and the US will face a severe withdrawal. These teabaggers are pro-CSA, not USA. USA interests are not CSA interests. The classical (not modern) USA economic system was not the CSA economic system.





Tue, 05/04/2010 - 12:39 | 331004 Yophat
Yophat's picture

This is really getting to be quite pointless.  Obviously you have not seen much of the world nor much of the US for that matter.  In terms of urbanization - the US is one of the least urbanized nations in the world.  Doesn't hold a candle to Japan, Europe, etc.  If you look at a world wide population density map....only tiny portions of the west coast and fairly larger portions of the east coast approach the densities you see in other parts of the world.  Not much different from China's actually with China actually being a little worse!  And I hate to break it to you.....but the transportation methods here (i.e. semi truck) are basically the same all over the world...but the US has better infrastructure (given longer distances to cover - i.e. more open "farmable" land).   On the other hand, 25% or more of Russia's and China's food rots before ever getting to market.  There really is no comparison.  Look at online pictures of miles of trucks stuck in the mud in Russia on their major highway crossing over to the east coast!

You also buy into the propaganda about dollar devaluation...which is pure hogwash....its the world's reserve currency.  What are they going to devalue it against?  The euro?  ROFLMAO!!!  Saudi is sunk without our military might....

Then you launch into the wild idea of an EMP strike....who's going to strike us?  Russia?  China?  LOL They are scared to death of us.  We are the ones with bases in 136 countries.....spending more on the military than the rest of the world combined!  Only threat we have are those in charge trying to push their agenda on us with false flags....i.e utilizing Third Reich fear methods.

Then you talk about us starving to death.  Have you seen how much unfarmed land is available?  How many backyards that could be turned into gardens that not only produce for the occupents but also for all the neighbors?  If the US looked like Japan (all houses and concrete)....then I'd buy into your hogwash....but it doesn't!  Even in the biggest cities there are still fairly good sized lots of open land.  The only exception would be downtown areas of 15 or 20 largest major cities....and fairly large portion of upper East Coast (i.e. New York area).

Toothless because of the Neocons....LOL....Not!  It's the years of propaganda and programming they are still trying to wade through!  All the patriotic BS that has been stuffed down our throats while we build the American empire!

Oil is priced where it is due to trading games.....not demand.  Best not to combine Wall Street and the real world (Main Street) as you'll be forever chasing your tail!

Yeah I've heard that line before....unfortunately the reality is the Western world order set up Russia and China....and still controls them with a tight fist!  Look at the train loads of support we provided Russia during WWII.  Operation Keelhaul at the conclusion to ensure they would be able to control eastern Europe.  The supposedly clear fault lines are a complete facade.  Think about it for a second....why would the western group set up the UN and then allow the Russians to head the Security Counsel for all these years?  The whole East vs. West thing is a facade.  World War II was planned at the conclusion of WWI.  Just tools for change.  There is one world order.....and the US people are the last group of people on the face of the planet with the capability of stopping it.  Hence the efforts to undermine the economy, false flags over the decades to push them in certain directions, intense media/propaganda efforts, intensive drug propagation, distruption and government sponsored ($$$-federal subsidies for only certain areas:

* Meat/Dairy -- 73.8 percent
* Grains -- 13.2 percent
* Sugar/Oil/Starch/Alcohol -- 10.7 percent
* Nuts/Legumes -- 1.9 percent
* Vegetables/Fruits -- 0.4 percent)

etc etc etc.

Don't get hung up over Iran....another facade.  Look into the history of Operation AJAX.

In fact while you are at it here's a good starting list:  Pentagon Papers, Operation Watchtower, Operation Artichoke, Operation Northwoods, MK Ultra, Operation Mongoose, Operation Gladio, Operation Condor, Operation Mockingbird, Operation 40, Lend-Lease program, The Pegasus File......and if you want's my recommended reading list -

The economic downturn has been created!  Its a stimulated crisis to create change.  Forget the teabaggers....they are just a symptom and plenty of preparations have been made deal with them (FEMA concentration camps built by former Halliburton subsidiary KBR).  Don't believe me.....Do Your Own Research (DYOR)!  Might start with Obama's executive order in February creating 10 governors to rule the country militarily.....which just so happens to correspond to the 10 FEMA regions.

Tue, 05/04/2010 - 13:36 | 331121 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

Actually the US is one of the most URBANIZED nations on earth. It is more urbanized than either China or India. The better question is where are you getting your numbers?

Other nations have their food supply centered closer to population areas. In the US on the otherhand food must be delivered over long range trucking, highly dependent on hydrocarbon energies. Will there be some people in Redneckia, that survive? sure.

Like I said where are you getting your questionable numbers?

You buy into the propaganda of the strong dollar. Look at the dollar, vs the euro right now. The DXY is supposedly in the 80s and is supposed to be strong, right? Well look at commodity prices. Both currencies are competitively devaluing. In any case a Euro collapse would be the worst thing that could happen to the dollar. As then the German DM would no longer be kept undervalued by the weaker euro nations, which would cause the dollar to slide against it.


The US military might is exaggerated. Look at Vietnam, Korea (the US had a draw with Mao's China). Creditor nations of the US won't have a choice at some point, they will be forced to sell their dollar denominated assets whether they like it or not to pay off debts.


Oh my, bases in 136, nations. That's why the US cannot take on the failed state of Pakistan (China's ally). Greater spending does not equal efficient spending. Look at the spending on the healthcare system or the education system. The US military spending is mostly into ground-oriented combat and legacy weapons systems. The Military-industrial complex, DOES NOT EXIST TO HELP YOU. They exist to extract the maximum possible profit the taxpayer at whatever the cost may be. The US is basically looking like the British empire after WW1 at this point. In any case neither China or Russia would have to attack, you believe that the US is the only nation on earth that engages false flag attacks, huh? They could use a puppet state like NK. Or even better they could see the teabaggers start a war against big gubmint, which would distract the US military in the process. It would be playing right into their hands.

Yes, the infrastructure is not setup. It is not possible at this point. Where are all of your so-called gardens, now? The capacity to do something is not the same as actually implementing it. There would be a mass die-off.


Now you have just spouting paranoid nonsense without having any knowledge whatsoever of how the oil market actually works. Don't tell me you believe that the Rockefellers and the Rothschilds sit in a dark room together and set the world's agenda annually.  There are not enough tankers in the world to corner the oil market, period. Only a change on demand or supply can effect the oil market in the long-term in any dramatic way. Look at tanker rates, right now, and look at the price of Crude. Do some research, do not spout opinion and expect people to accept it is fact. Holding oil only works when the front-end is weak and the price is low compared to longer-dated contracts. Do speculators make a mint off of the contango?, sure. Do they drive the market up or down in any sustainable form? NO.

Actually the Western World is being played by non-Western powers. Whatever control they did have is now quickly fading. The Western world is bankrupt, they cannot even control the afghan islamists anymore. Look at the afpak theater.  Oh please, the British empire did not want to collapse in on itself, it made misguided moves which allowed it decline post-WW1. It was a declining economic, political and military power post-WW1 similar to the situation of the US today. The US provided support to the Soviet union, correct they were allies of convenience. The same way that the US provided support to the islamists in afghanistan that they can no longer tame. See the disaster that is Afghanistan and Iraq. Why did the USSR get a security council seat? The US did not want to start another war with the USSR. The American public was already exhausted from WW2, besides they controlled eastern europe and Eastern Germany. They were a major power, that is why the UN was setup, so that nations could have a consensus in establishing political resolutions, geographic boundries, etc.

One world order, illuminati, lizard people, you are just getting a bit sad at this point. There is no one world order, period. There is a western world order, islamic world order, chinese world order, etc.  It is the US that is finished. There are plenty of teabaggers willing to fight the gubmint. For now the dollar is still reasonably strong and oil is not that high, along with the neocon control of the teabaggers. The Teabaggers will break free of the neocons eventually though.


The economic downturn has been created? Not this paranoid nonsense. The US wanted the free-market neoliberal approach and they got it. Read the stratfor reports. The Washington think tanks are as deluded as the US government itself. Fema camps? Not this debunked nonsense. The US is the most well armed population on earth, with the third largest population. It is you who should forget about these "fema camps". 30 million teabaggers wanting to take arms against the gubmint is not a small deal, and the so-called fema camps are absolutely powerless in the face of civil war. You are the one who should actually be doing research, not simply spouting off rumors you may have heard from crackpot websites such as prisonplanet.


Tue, 05/04/2010 - 17:36 | 331578 Yophat
Yophat's picture

LOL Everything is opinion....for better or worse!  Statistics is a game!

That UN paper is a joke.  Did you actually read it....think about it?  Japan is less urban that the US....give me a break.  I've traveled from Iwa Kuni to Misawa.....and I've been all over the US.  No comparison.

Now for some stats since you aren't digging my opinion - Japan is about the size of California...roughly 4% of the US land mass and yet has nearly half the people of the US (125 M vs. 263 M...give or take). How's that for urbanization?  About 15% of Japan's land mass can be cultivated for crops vs. 46% for the US.  How's that for urbanization? Here's one of the funny little twists -

Despite its low level of urbanization, in 2007 Asia was home to about half of the urban population in the world.

I'm not stating there won't be some problems....the grocery store in Dawson, MN (pop 1200) gets a couple truckloads of food a week....while mega stores in Arlington Heights, IL get trucks hourly around the clock.  There will obviously be some pain should there be a disruption to the supply chain.  That said there is a ton of land out there that currently isn't being cultivated that could be should the need arise.  Will it be a painful transition if needed....obviously! 

Strong dollar....weak dollar....does it really matter?  Its all games.  If China is such a big threat...why would we let them peg their currency against ours without playing hardball back?  Why give them technology?  Why support their government?

Then you go into your east vs. west world view again....western interests put Mao in power.  Good book on that era called "The Politician" by Robert should read it some time!

We could take Pakistan any day we wanted.....along with all the rest of the countries....if needed.  I spent nearly a decade traveling all over the world involved in components of the MIC....well aware of capability and limits. 

Quit putting words in my mouth I didn't say.....never stated the US was the only one who engages in false flags....I did state that we should be far more concerned with our own leadership than what Russia and China are doing/not doing.

And FYI...for all your ranting about mass die off.....take a minute and look into how much food is produced in the US for the rest of the world.....

I'm currently employed in the exploration side of the oil business....doing work for most of the big dogs out there (worldwide - from Saudi Aramco to Petrobras to COSL) please keep ranting about my knowledge of the oil industry!

LOL Let's not even get into the "afpak theater". you really think we have 100,000 troops and 400,000 private contractors in Afghanistan to chase 100 "Al Qaeda" members around the countryside???  Go do your homework on opium.....couple good books you can start with - "Called to Serve" by James "Bo" Gritz & "The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia" by Alfred McCoy.

...allies of convenience eh?  You don't have a clue about Operation Keelhaul do you?  Since when do you send 4 to 6 million people to be slaughtered by an "ally of convenience"??? 

...worried about starting another war with the USSR?  after we've been feeding them for a couple years?  ....and you say I spout paranoid nonsense???  Do your homework on the Lend-Lease program!!!

Do your homework on the UN!!!

Oh world order.....keep drinkin' the Koolaide!!!  Good luck with your BS (belief system)!!!!

Tue, 05/04/2010 - 18:22 | 331651 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

All right so now you are throwing out all statistics made by credible institutions. You still haven't told me what is your source? Prisonplanet? First of all greater urbanization in terms of population means that a greater proportion of the population lives in and around cities, relative to rural areas. Nothing is absolute. Take Canada for example. The Majority of the population of Canada all live very near and around the US border. Another urbanized nation. How many people actually live up in the Northwest Territories and Nunavat. Only a few thousand people altogether. Your superficial analysis does not take into account arable land and the necessary irrigation required to supply it. Much of the land in the American SW is unwisely used and requires an excess amount of water. Many areas are now starting to face water shortages now. A painful transition? The infrastructure for localized food production is not here now. You do not cultivate and irrigate land overnight. See what happened to the native americans after they kicked out of one new territorialized area after another.

Financiers and Financial economics are inherently short term driven. To them sustainable long-term investments are not as profitable as short term asset price speculation. The financial capitalists are a parasite on industrial capitalism. China's willingness to buy US debt and become a low-cost producer (along with the other creditors) helped facilitate the US economic ponzi scheme. This is all part of the post-71 debt driven us economic paradigm. China assented to this knowing that they would receive tech transfers and skills in exchange for being a willing participant.  The Financial industry and Wall Street has never been a loud patron of American industry and production. To them its all about generating commissions and fees, end of story.


They were able to convince the bulk of the American populace to accept trickle down economics and off-shoring essential industries, which further accelerated the shopping mall economy. At the end of the day financiers are asset strippers and want to extract as much rental income from productive industrial economic assets as much as possible. This includes arranging for certain economic assets to be sold overseas. This is all part of Neoliberal economics.

Actually if the KMT had in fact won the war, most likely xinjiang would be an independent nation and inner mongolia would be part of mongolia. The soviets waited for mao's victory before soviet troops left xinjiang. It's the KMT that was always America's stooge. The CCP was a communist/soviet sponsored peasant revolt decades in the making. The US sure did love their good friend Mao in the Korean war, huh? Along with his support of the Vietcong in the vietnam war. General Douglas Macarthur would have to disagree with you on a number of issues.  The US backed Saddam in the iran-iraq conflict, but Saddam remain beholden to US interests?, no. Saddam still started to sell oil in euros, not dollars which threatened the Reserve currency status of the dollar.

Yet the US continues to donate to Pakistan. Pakistan at this point basically thinks of the US as a jizya paying nation. The US is losing its world dominance. The British empire also supported the partitioning of Anatolia, what happened to that? Turkey and Ataturk still won the Turkish War of independence. The MIC like the financial industry exists to extract as much RENT out of the population as possible, regardless of real technological improvements.

Its not so much the amount of food produced, but how that food is delivered and the hydrocarbon energy it takes to transport that food.

Like I said there is a difference between profiting from contango and driving the price up or down in any meaningful sustainable fashion. Those futures contracts after all have to be rolled over month to month. There needs to be real demand for prices to equilibrate with physical supply.

And how are the Islamist "allies" taking it? They are making the US look like fools. The central government is totally impotent and really only has control over Kabul. Key Objectives are being set back left and right. You can have all the heroin in the world, however the US government does not have all the funds in the world to continue an operation of this magnitude for say the next 100 years. The Mongols allied with Turks at times, but that didn't stop them from slaughtering them at other times.

What USSR? The US is getting involved in foreign theaters far far away brushing up on Russia's border in insignificant Banana Republics like Georgia and Ukraine.  Russia has been sucking up foreign capital and technology as well.  The same goes for Xinjiang and Taiwan with China. Imagine if Russia or China was sponsoring unrest like that in Canada, Mexico or Hawaii. Do you believe that the US would not have a problem with that? This is all out in the open.

The USSR was an allied nation at the time, so the US supplied them with goods. Take a look at Western Europe, the British empire and France were allies for a time against other powers, and then enemies at other times. It's an alliance of convenience.

Do your homework without citing infowars or

 You do realize that there have been other world orders in history right? The Mongol conquest of of the bulk of Eurasia for example lead to a Mongol-dominated World Order.

Wed, 05/05/2010 - 15:49 | 333119 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Good luck with your BS!!!  When you can stop spouting off about infowars or rense which I've never brought up and certainly have never referenced (which means you're grasping at straws to sustain your BS since you can't read between the lines & don't take it personal...nearly everyone I've met in my short lifespan holds their BS near and dear)

.....and dig a little beyond the actually read the references I've provided....or at least demonstrate some understanding of what actually happens behind the scenes rather than what's fed to you on TV.......then let's talk!

P.S. - Boy the demand for oil sure has dropped in the last day or so!

Wed, 05/05/2010 - 16:42 | 333214 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

What do you mean? You are the one who keeps on spouting un-sourced conspiracy nonsense. I assumed that you frequented rense and infowars as you had not given any other legitimate sources for your information.

The US is one of the most urbanized nations on earth. That is a FACT, which you seem keen on denying. Where is your reference regarding global urbanization rates?


"demonstrate some understanding of what actually happens behind the scenes rather than what's fed to you on TV."

Exactly, the US is not an infallible superpower and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't great success stories. The Teabaggers are not going to forever remain as harmless neocons. The Financial industry and the military-industrial complex are not here to benefit the populous, but to line their own pockets at whatever the cost, even if it poses risks to long-term US stratagems.

By the way accidents do happen in offshore drilling.


Wed, 05/05/2010 - 18:30 | 333389 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Round and round we go!  Legitimate sources for what information?  I've provided multiple references which you skim over and ignore...what's the point of giving you more?  I gave you a reading list of several hundred you want a page by page reference that you'll never check because you don't want to upset your BS???  I highly doubt it!  You're just blowing smoke for the sake of your precious BS!  Go read the books and then formulate a knowledgeable response...

Still going in circles of urbanization???  Use your head - country the size of California (JAPAN) with nearly 3.5X the population of California....yet Japan is less urbanized than the US???  Japan has roughly 12 million acres of cultivated land or less than a 1/3 of California (roughly 43 million acres of cultivated land) but 3.5 times the population ....yet Japan is less urbanized than the US??? 

Is it not plainly obvious that either your urbanization measuring stick (beginning of this debate was on survivability which you then corresponded to urbanization) is whacked or your souce is whacked??? You pick!

If the supply chain stops....will you live by your UN data source (i.e. lower urbanization country like Japan) or by my opinion (i.e. US...Cali, etc.)???

High rice prices feed Japan's farming woes

Addressing food self-sufficiency

Excerpt from link above -

The Hatoyama administration March 30 introduced a basic food, agriculture and agricultural-village program. Among other things, the program calls for raising Japan's food self-sufficiency rate from the current 41 percent to 50 percent (calculated by calories) in 10 years. This goes beyond the 45 percent target of the previous Liberal Democratic Party-Komeito administration.

The rate for Britain and Italy is between 60 percent and 70 percent, and the rate for both the United States and France tops 100 percent.

Now put that in your crack pipe and smoke it while you are deliberating on the rest of my opinions!

And Please quit making statements that are twisted copies of my statements and then pretending that they are yours and that you are telling me something new - i.e. I said in previous post - "Americans are dead last on list of priorities" said in your last post - "The Financial industry and the military-industrial complex are not here to benefit the populous, but to line their own pockets at whatever the cost, even if it poses risks to long-term US stratagems."

Wed, 05/05/2010 - 18:53 | 333437 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

What references? Your tin foil hat is a little tight.

Here you go with the strawman argumentation. The JAPANTIMES and the ASIATIMES articles do not contradict anything that I've said.

I stated that the US is incredibly dependent upon long-range transport that consumes an immense amount of hydrocarbons and puts the US at risk. The amount of food that is produced is irrelevant, it depends on how that product is delivered from point a to point B and at what cost and what energy costs it takes to produce and deliver the product.


The US is one of the most urbanized nations on earth, that is an established fact.

You obviously do not understand the concept of urbanization. Japan has greater population density and certain parts of China also have higher population density than the US, however more Americans live in cities than Chinese do.  That's not a difficult concept to grasp.


The definition or urbanization: "Urbanization refers to a process in which an increasing proportion of an entire population lives in cities and the suburbs of cities. Historically, it has been closely connected with industrialization. When more and more inanimate sources of energy were used to enhance human productivity (industrialization), surpluses increased in both agriculture and industry. Larger and larger proportions of a population could live in cities. Economic forces were such that cities became the ideal places to locate factories and their workers." 


It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with population density. Look at Canada. How many people live in the NW territories and Nunavat? THOUSANDS

Crackpipe? That is rich coming from a crack-pot nwo tin foil hatter.

You believe that the military-industrial complex actually works for the American people in providing the most durable and outstanding military weaponry on earth. That could not be further from the truth. Defense contractors only care about what is most profitable for them and their shareholders, the security of the US comes after. You are twisting reality to conform with your paranoid delusions.





Thu, 05/06/2010 - 11:55 | 334608 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Round and round we go!

Either your version of urbanization is a load of bunk or your source is.....TAKE YOUR PICK!!!

I've been all over Japan and the majority of their food comes in by ship (whether via transport or fishing vessel) either the metrics that are used for urbanization analysis are skewed or the source of data is....take your pick!

If I'm a crack-pot nwo tin foil hatter....what does that make you???  LOL  Maybe you should pull your head out once in a while and feed some oxygen to that brain!

There you go putting words in my mouth AGAIN....I've never stated that the MIC works for the American fact the opposite as stated and quoted in my last post you just replied to....keep grabbing at straws!

You know if your brain gets more oxygen your reading comprehension and retension levels might improve.....such that you might possibly comprehend that this little heavily populated island that grows less than 40% of its own food...and a good portion of that comes from all over the world (like the nearly 40% of California's rice it purchases every year - US is Japan's #1 supplier of food with China taking the #2 spot).....will be in much worse of a bind should the energy supply chain shut down than the US.....despite having a "lower urbanization rating"....thereby negating your whole urbanization rhetoric!

P.S. - it's a lot easier to walk to better more productive locations (even pulling a cart full of goods) than it is to swim!!!

Thu, 05/06/2010 - 13:47 | 334970 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

Like I said you clearly you do not understand the definition of urbanization. I've already gave it to you. It has nothing to do with population density.


Take a look at this study:


Who said that Japan's food supply was secure? They are an island nation dependent upon imports. Great Straw-man

 Where have I ever admitted to believing in any delusional conspiracy such as yourself? No you are in a league of your own on that. Everything I've said is documented established and referenced, unlike the hair-brained theories that you espouse.

You are no different than a Neocon. You believe that the MIC has America's best interests ENOUGH at heart to make sure America keeps its global military dominance. However history has not shown that to be the case. If anything the parasitic MIC decreases the rank of America's military prowess versus other powers, which you seem to grasp as much as any neocon.


Talk about projection. You are the one who clearly needs to establish a larger vocabulary. You are now arguing against accredited institutions on the definition of urbanization, to fit with your artificial definition. Where have I defended Japan?  That's your straw-man. The issue is the amount of energy it takes to produce and transport food, the US is not in a healthy position RELATIVELY. Nothing is absolute. It is based upon how the current infrastructure and delivery systems are setup. You do realize that if there is not enough hydrocarbon energy and water to even fertilize, genetically modify and distribute such food, delivery to anywhere including long-range trips in the US is a moot point? Enjoy walking 700 miles and back for your poorly irrigated and fertilized mirage of crops.


Thu, 05/06/2010 - 18:36 | 335491 Yophat
Yophat's picture






Hello....anyone home????

Who's gives a gnat's hiny about urbanization?  You are trying to utilize the term to prove your point about survivability should the energy supply chain break down (the US is worse off than nearly the rest of the world).....and it doesn't prove your point.....Japan case in point! 

You can rattle on all day about straw-man this or that.....but it would be really helpful if you would just remove your head....suck in some oxygen.....and think about what you are saying.

You rattle on and on about urbanization and how catastrophic it is to the US.  Then when pointed out to you that, according to your information source, Japan is lower on the urbanization scale than the US.....but its a load of crap in terms of backing up your survivability come back with "Who said that Japan's food supply was secure? They are an island nation dependent upon imports" and start spewing straw-man this and straw-man that!   What happened to Japan's urbanization rating??????  LOL

Then you spew some more meaningless unintelligent ranting...

Then you start throwing buckets of paint around labeling me a Neocon when you don't know me from Adam!  .....which I shouldn't be surprised at since that has been your modus operandi since the beginning of this charade!  If it makes you feel better about yourself and your BS.....put me in whatever box you think I fit....LOL!  If it makes you sleep better at night keep on assuming you got me in a box nailed down tight.....that I spend my days on Infowars & Rense....

On a side note - it's very ironic that you are on ZH (the financial equivalent of Infowars)

Please keep telling me what I believe about the MIC....LOL! 

LOL....please keep going!!!  I'm now arguing with "accredited institutions"....LOL....are you frothing at the mouth yet???  Ahh back to that poor straw-man...LOL suddenly after all your spewing about my understanding of urbanization and backpeddle and state...."the US is not in a healthy position RELATIVELY"....ROFLMAO!!!

Sorry...keep dreaming!!!  I grow most of my own food....and there is umpteen thousands of acreas of farm land within 300 miles in any direction....not to mention forests, lakes, rivers, and plenty of wild life!  And worse comes to worse....plenty of fat urbanized weanies with their heads buried up their anus to hunt!  Keep smoking the crack pipe!!!



Thu, 05/06/2010 - 19:49 | 335612 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

I said that the US would be worse off than many other nations NOT ALL OTHER NATIONS. Where did I say that Japan would necessarily be better off? That's your straw-man argument. Keep digging yourself a deeper hole.

You are the one who needs to loosen to the tin foil hat on your head and lookup the definition of urbanization.  You're arguing against Merriam-Webster at this point.

You clearly have a hard time recognizing facts that conflict with your belief system. All the Japantimes article said was that in the current environment in a well oil supplied world and the infrastructure intact, the US is self-sufficient. Where did I argue against that? I said that in the event of say oil prices spiking to extreme highs or if an emp hit the US. There would be limited means to transport all the food out of the fields and carry it cross country and economically sell it for the masses to keep consuming it at current rates.

Japan is your straw man argument. The US is more urbanized than China and India, those are facts. I've NEVER argued for the efficiency of Japan's infrastructure period. By the way concepts such as urbanization, population density, hydrocarbon usage and infrastructure do not have the same meaning


Your whole argument is a rant that you use to justify your own belief system, you are trying to hard to convince yourself of this bubble of a world you have conceived in your own mind.

Yes you are like a Neocon in the way I described. The neocons use the argument that since the US spends most on its military, it is therefore the most efficient and increasingly an even more powerful force on this earth. However, in the  real world we can all see that the US military is losing out relatively as other powers that are relatively increasing their military capabilities at a faster rate than the US military. Look at education spending, spending by itself does not make that spending efficient, unlike what the Efficient-market hypothesis states, Neocons and Chicago schoolers are proud patrons of the theory.

 ZH often times does give credible sources for its reporting, along with heresy however that heresy is often accompanied with reasonable commentary. On the other-hand according to your model, you redefine established dictionary definitions to conform with your own twisted world view. Show me where ZH has contradicted Merriam-Webster?

So where are your sources for information? Do need help understanding what a straw-man argument is too? Merriam-Webster is there to help too.

If you are going to bring up a conspiracy theory the burden is on YOU to prove it, not the other way around.

Look back 20 comments. I haven't back-peddled at all. I've been saying the same thing the whole time. Nothing is absolute, you take everything as absolute instead of RELATIVE to fit your dualistic religious based belief system. Saying that the US is in a worse position compared to many other nations, is different from arguing that Japan is in a better position. What a poor argument on your part. You were the one who brought up Japan to begin with, even though I HAVE NEVER DEFENDED JAPAN.

Great, grow your own food, that is on you. Food does not grow overnight, and the majority of the population is dependent upon long range hydrocarbon rich transport for their food supply. You are the only one here espousing conspiracy theories.


Now even Merriam-Webster is a conspiracy in your own mind.




Fri, 05/07/2010 - 13:01 | 336919 Yophat
Yophat's picture






Look this is ridiculous...we'll soon be down to single digits flowing down the page.


I love all your backpeddling while chanting straw man, straw man, straw man!  That nasty little Neocon....make the bad man go away....ROFLMAO!!!

Bla bla bla keep trying to put a lid on the box!  You keep rambling about this stuff like I actually made some statement in support of Neocons, military, etc....

Side note:  Name one military group that has a 1/10th of the US military capability in the world TODAY!  That said....of course the US military is in decline....and declining very rapidly for that matter.....What's your point????  You are arguing with the wall on this one.  But if it makes you feel better and holds your BS all means, keep going!

oooohhhh not Merriam-Webster again.....LOL  Talk about straw men....look in the mirror my friend!

Back peddle....well I reckon I could cut n' paste them all in to this post....but you really don't care...nor would it make any difference since you are hugging your BS tightly and rocking back and forth at this its a huge waste of time......

Back to Japan again....which you still haven't caught on....that it was just an example to blow your "urbanization" argument out of the water....which it did quite well....causing you to spout off over and over about straw men ever since!

Actually food does grow overnight....still running off the energy (sugars) created during photosynthesis...

Oh what a sad mess you've become!

Look....let us call it quits before you have a mental breakdown and start sputtering foam speckled blabbs about how I'm cooking conspiracies concerning George and Charles Merriam stealing the rights to Noah Webster's dictionary!


Fri, 05/07/2010 - 14:16 | 337000 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

Where did I say that the security of food supply EXCLUSIVELY had to do with urbanization?

That's a straw-man argument.


Where did I back-peddle? Show me, you still have not. This is all you have resorted to.


I never said that you supported the Neocons, I said that you take some core tenets that Neocons that believe such as because the Us spends the most on its military it must be the most efficient and powerful in the world and is increasing in potency day by day. You're the one drawing assumptions and putting words in my mouth.


Russia and China. Like I said US CBGs can be taken out with cruise missiles. The US can be kicked out of the APAC region, in the event of another Korean war or a Cross Straits Conflict. The US empire will be forced to withdraw from the region.

Like I said look up the definition of straw-man. You are arguing with the dictionary here.


You keep trying to twist my words to fit your dualistic religious beliefs. URBANIZATION and the security of the FOOD SUPPLY are not MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

Good luck trying to turn seeds into full-grown plants overnight.


You're the only mess here. You are arguing with the dictionary.

You are not only arguing with Merriam-Webster, you are also arguing with Random House, Oxford, etc


Better hope this "NWO" of yours isn't reading this for your sake. God only knows what they're capable of, especially to NWO paranoid lunatics foaming at the mouth. Don't stay around too long or you're going to give yourself a seizure soon enough.


At this point you are only trying to get the last word in so that you can secure the justification of your fragile belief system.



Fri, 05/07/2010 - 15:53 | 337070 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Exactly...who did?

Go read your posts...I'm not gonna cut n' paste it all in here....already done that several times to no avail!  You don't like it....tough!

LOL Reread my post...then read your response!!! 

The whole world can be taken out by a good electromagnetic storm from the sun.....or the air force shut down by a volcano.....or most of the sea coast taken out by a tsunami.....What's your point?  More straw man foaming at the mouth!


Don't need your luck!  Its called staggered planting....creates a nice year round harvest!  Here's a TED program with a spot on my friend Paul you ought to watch....make sure you get some oxygen before viewing so you can absorb a bit of it....may save your life and those you care about some day!

They read everything....I don't care!  They have their plans....and I have mine!

Look in the mirror and recite that last statement to yourself....over and over and over again!


Fri, 05/07/2010 - 17:35 | 337234 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

Yet you still cannot cite anything from what I've said previously to justify your argument in your mind.

No, I stated that as the US is one of the most urbanized nations and that the infrastructure used to deliver food in the US NOT ALL OTHER URBANIZED CENTERS ON EARTH is not any shape to deal with say a potential emp attack or if crude oil prices were to shoot up. You can have a metropolitan area, with food production and distribution being closer to the city. URBANIZATION, FOOD DISTRIBUTION and HYDROCARBON energy usage to deliver that food are not mutually exclusive.

You are the only one foaming at the mouth here, you've obviously backed your self up into quite the corner. I already gave you an example. If say the US got involved in a Korean peninsular war, and NK was able to launch an emp against the US it would cripple the US infrastructure.

The food distribution system nationwide is not setup period to withstand such scenarios. You are the only one here whose brain is clearly being deprived of oxygen. Instead of having a rational discussion about social and political events, scenarios, trends and their implications you instead focus on how the whole world is being controlled by the NWO. The NWO is your argument. Prove the existence of this mythical NWO.




Sun, 05/09/2010 - 00:17 | 338702 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Already cited....not wasting any more time on it....enough said!

Nice backpeddle....keep it up!!!!

Corner?  Corner???  You must be kidding....LOL!!!  You say I'm in a corner then proceed to blabber about hypothetical EMP launches by are one interested chap!  FYI - anything is possible in hypotheticals!!!  Hypothetically speaking....Yellowstone could blow off tomorrow and send the whole planet back to the ice age!  What's your point???

The worldwide food distribution system is not setup to withstand such scenarios.....What's your point???

ROFLMAO.....please gently remove your head.....suck in oxygen....CAUTION: slowly at first as to not pop all your synapses at once!!!  Now reread your posts!!!  You are the one rattling on about Infowars and Rense.  You are the one blabbering away about the threat of the tea baggers.  You are the one rambling about Neocons.  I didn't bring any of that up....YOU DID!

I've simply refuted your utilization of urbanization to support your statement that the US is in far worse shape than Russia and China....and all your meaningless attempts along the way to put me in one political box or another.  I've never attempted to prove anything about NWO.  I could care less what you believe about NWO.  I provided references to information concerning world politics that you don't get from TV propaganda....but you've never addressed any of that negating the need for me to support or prove anything about it.

But you really don't care...or basically have any interest in learning any truth that might upset your belief its all been pretty much a waste of time.  Oh well....its recorded you can never say you never had a chance to get the information.

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 01:20 | 338723 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

Once again you cannot cite anything from what I have said previously and you clearly have a hard time understanding and accepting any concept that conflicts with your belief system.


So you're saying that the US doesn't have troops in SK and that the NK regime is sound and stable?  Or how about the informal US commitment to Taiwan, doesn't exist either?

I've already explained the situation to you multiple times, everything is relative not absolute as you take it to fit your pseudo-religious belief system. You're not even bothering to rationally discuss any in-context statement that is not in accord with your beliefs.


Show me your references.


You haven't refuted anything, only in your own mind perhaps you have. If that's the case, why do you continue to post? You obviously have nothing more to contribute.




Mon, 05/10/2010 - 16:44 | 342042 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Keep whining....already cut n' paste a couple times for you....I'm done with that!

Reread the posts.....but pull your head out first and get some fresh oxygenated air!!!

Mon, 05/10/2010 - 17:13 | 342112 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

What a way to completely avoid the issues at hand on your part. Good luck with your pseudo-religious beliefs in the real world.

Mon, 05/10/2010 - 20:54 | 342527 Yophat
Yophat's picture

LOL....and what a nice way to spin your own dodging of the issues which as you can tell I've run out of patience with.

...and good luck with your pseudo-religious beliefs!!!

....and your food supply!!!

Mon, 05/10/2010 - 21:39 | 342597 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

You're the only one "dodging the issues" here as anyone can clearly see.


It's all in the public domain.

Tue, 05/11/2010 - 09:56 | 343263 Yophat
Yophat's picture each his own!

....ahhh Sherlock Holmes himself....

Tue, 05/11/2010 - 15:07 | 344214 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

As if your comment could be a more relevant contribution to this conversation.

Tue, 05/11/2010 - 17:03 | 344461 Yophat
Yophat's picture

No worse than yours!!!

Tue, 05/11/2010 - 17:37 | 344548 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

You're the one who chose to drift off-topic. I'm simply illustrating that point.

Wed, 05/12/2010 - 13:29 | 346696 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Do you feel better now?

Fri, 05/07/2010 - 13:07 | 336922 Yophat
Yophat's picture






Look this is ridiculous...we'll soon be down to single digits flowing down the page.


I love all your backpeddling while chanting straw man, straw man, straw man!  That nasty little Neocon....make the bad man go away....ROFLMAO!!!

Bla bla bla keep trying to put a lid on the box!  You keep rambling about this stuff like I actually made some statement in support of Neocons, military, etc....

Side note:  Name one military group that has a 1/10th of the US military capability in the world TODAY!  That said....of course the US military is in decline....and declining very rapidly for that matter.....What's your point????  You are arguing with the wall on this one.  But if it makes you feel better and holds your BS all means, keep going!

oooohhhh not Merriam-Webster again.....LOL  Talk about straw men....look in the mirror my friend!

Back peddle....well I reckon I could cut n' paste them all in to this post....but you really don't care...nor would it make any difference since you are hugging your BS tightly and rocking back and forth at this its a huge waste of time......

Back to Japan again....which you still haven't caught on....that it was just an example to blow your "urbanization" argument out of the water....which it did quite well....causing you to spout off over and over about straw men ever since!

Actually food does grow overnight....still running off the energy (sugars) created during photosynthesis...

Oh what a sad mess you've become!

Look....while I certainly find this quite amusing.....let us call it quits before you have a mental breakdown and start sputtering foam speckled blabbs about how I'm cooking conspiracies concerning George and Charles Merriam stealing the rights to Noah Webster's dictionary!


Fri, 05/07/2010 - 14:24 | 337007 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

Specifically cite what you have accused me of saying in your ABSOLUTE world. You're desperate and hopeless.



Fri, 05/07/2010 - 15:23 | 337036 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Are you in the fetal position sucking your thumb yet? LOL  I may be hopeless in your little world....but I'm certainly not desperate....perhaps you ought to get to know Merriam-Webster....ROFLMAO!!!

Fri, 05/07/2010 - 17:31 | 337243 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

Yet you still cannot answer the question I asked the prior post, because you have not a legitimate argument.

You're the one here who is trying to convince yourself of your own harebrained theories, not me.

It's on you to prove this mythical NWO, their existence and HOW they want to use the US military at least in part to control the world.



Sat, 05/08/2010 - 23:58 | 338689 Yophat
Yophat's picture

LOL  Keep telling yourself that!

LOL Keep telling yourself that!  FYI...if what you say is true....there wouldn't be repetative responses from you!!!!  Good luck with your BS!  Hope you live in a secure place!

I don't have to prove anything about the NWO....its all well documented!  I already gave you the sources!  Ed Griffin has some pretty good insights provided in multiple works....probably start with him first....although Bo Gritz did a pretty decent job in "Called to Serve".  Anyways there are hundreds of books out there with mountains of source data....doubt you'll touch one.....too busy sucking your thumb while curled up in the fetal position trying to protect your BS from reality!   Make those nasty little tea baggers go away!!!!

Sun, 05/09/2010 - 01:04 | 338741 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

Whatever makes you sleep at night.


Like I said cite what I have said. It's you that keeps on trying to get the last word in order to justify your NWO and your pseudo-religious infantile fantasies.

"it's all documented" And this is essentially your argument. Where are the sources? Where are the source documents?  How exactly do stories of CIA complicity in the drug trade during the cold war era prove the existence of the mythical NWO? That sounds like a religious belief. You would have better luck trying to prove the Shroud of Turin as authentic. It's more like you taking in certain pieces of data and extrapolating wild assumptions to comfort your paranoia.

It's hilarious to see you keep PROJECTING the image of yourself in the fetal position trying to protect YOUR BS from reality.

The teabaggers are the ones trying to incite a conflict with another " fascist northern LIBURRAL" president from Illinois.


Mon, 05/10/2010 - 16:53 | 342062 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Again....your blabbering displays your ignorance!  Go read the books....then formulate an intelligent opinion!  It's a $500 billion a year industry with unique geopolitical implications going back to the late 1700's (and probably long before that) with the UK/China opium wars. 

I've provided you with the best reading list available on the web (that I am aware of).

Before we can have an intelligent conversation about need to pull your head out....suck in some fresh air....and do a little research.  Until you decide to do that....its pointless to continue....except to supply me with my daily....dose of humor reading your posts!

Hope YOU have your food supply squared away!

Mon, 05/10/2010 - 17:30 | 342120 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

"Read the books" Oh how specific. That's some citation. That's all the NWO paranoids have to reference in the end.

Drug money flowing into British pounds did not stop the British pound from losing its reserve currency status nor did it prevent the British empire from collapsing.

I've already addressed your other points. The only humor here is coming from you in your desperate attempts to prove your mythical NWO.

Mon, 05/10/2010 - 21:22 | 342565 Yophat
Yophat's picture

Nothing to prove!!! of the best....just for you!!!

- "Tragedy & Hope: A History of the World in Our Time" by Carroll Quigley, "The Creature from Jekyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve" by G. Edward Griffin, "The Mystery of Banking" by Murray N. Rothbard, "Secrets of the Federal Reserve" by Eustace Mullins, "Called to Serve" by James "Bo" Gritz, "The Politician" by Robert Welch, "Foundations, Their Power and Influence" by Rene Wormser, "1984" by George Orwell, "The New World Order" by H.G. Wells, "War is a Racket" by General Smedley D Butler, "The Naked Capitalist" by W. Cleon Skousen, "Dark Alliance" by Gary Webb, "The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow" by Constance Cumbey, "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" by Gary Allen, "Descent into Slavery" by Des Griffin, "The Big White Lie" by Michael Levine, "The Politics of Heroin" by Alfred McCoy, "Compromised" by Terry Reed & John Cummings, "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins, "The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy And Its Geostrategic Imperatives" by Zbigniew Brzezinski, "Philip Dru Administrator" by Edward Mandell House, "Crossfire" by Jim Marrs, "Global Tyranny Step By Step" by William F Jasper, "The Unauthorized Biography of George Bush" by Webster Tarpley & Anton Chaiken.

That list should easily lay out all the puzzle pieces and give you a pretty good perspective on history.....and what lies ahead!  Doubt you'll even touch one of them though....let alone read it!

And the full list for history's sake -

It is absolutely amazing and ironic that you hang out at it doesn't match your world view one iotta!

Tue, 05/11/2010 - 01:53 | 342870 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture


New World Order is a rather generic phrase. It can be used to describe any significant shift in geo-politics.

Ah yes Carroll Quigley with "Tragedy and Hope".  Show me where in that book it actually states that the two world wars were engineered and conducted by the NWO. The Rothschilds were actually described as being a power for peace in that book. Bankers are described as promoting and encouraging stability so that they can have healthy capital markets in which they can offer their services and profit from in banking and investments. The book also describes that as of 1932 the international bankers actually LOST much power in the wake of the great depression, not the other way around. It makes you look quite silly really.


As for "G Edward Griffin", he is notorious for taking alleged statements out of context to fit his own views. Take for example when citing Ralph Catterall's work on the second bank he claims that  "It had promised to continue the tradition of moderating the other banks by refusing to accept any of their notes unless they were redeemable in specie on demand. But when the other banks returned the gesture and required that the new Bank also pay out specie on their demand it frequently lost its resolve." when in fact Catterall was actually saying in his own words that "Thus the Bank of the United States, even when it attempted to press its claims, found insuperable obstacles to collecting in coin. Hence the state banks enjoyed a virtual immunity from the payment of the vast majority of their notes. In striking contrast to this favor shown the state banks was the attitude toward the national bank. Banks, brokers, and traders made a business of extracting coin from its vaults, an operation facilitated by its faulty management in permitting excessive discounts. Brokers and bankers constantly bought up its notes and presented them for redemption, drew specie, sold it at an advance, bought bank notes, presented them, drew specie, sold it, and so on ad infinitum." Let's not forget that he's a supporter of the deflation affected gold standard.

Rothbard, the austrian school anarchist, seriously? This man lived in a parallel universe totally detached from reality. He believed in a nuclear free world, privately owned and run militaries, privately owned and run police forces, privately owned and run fire departments, etc. Otherwise of course in accordance with austrian school principles the nuclear weapons industry would also have to be privatized and deregulated.

As for "Secrets of the Federal Reserve" by Eustace Mullins. He admits that Hitler's early campaigns were "financed" like many other candidates during the 1920s in Germany who also had chances of winning. Any financial support given to him was not special. As for the appeasement during the 1930s by most notoriously the conservative figure Neville Chamberlain, it was done to conserve the British empire.  It was not clear whether the British could even win a war against Germany, keep its finances in order and maintain its empire. This proved to be correct after WW2 when the British empire essentially went bankrupt. As far as financing NAZI Germany, well NAZI Germany issued its own debt and had a greenback-like system. Germany financed its own war, Germany did not need bankers to finance its debt.

Bo Gritz again. How does CIA complicity in the drug war during the cold war era according to "Called to Serve" prove the existence of the mythical NWO.

As for John Welch and "The Politican". He claims that Eisenhower "knowingly accepting and abiding by Communist orders, and consciously serving the Communist conspiracy, for all his adult life." without providing any evidence to back it up.

Regarding "Foundations: Their Power and Influence" by Rene Wormser, of course there are certain individuals who advocate certain goals and would like to have certain policies implemented when they share a similar ideology or religious belief,etc.  That's why you have rabid Christian Zionists working with rabid Jewish Zionists, as the Christians want to see their messiah come to Earth in accord their religious beliefs and the Jews want their "god given" land in accord with their religious beliefs. Similarly those with corporate agendas will support corporate agendas as advocated by the Chicago School and the Austrian school. You do realize that the University of Chicago was founded by John D. Rockefeller, right? Similarly Austrian school materials were distributed by the Volker fund and the free market ideologue William S Volker.  Without him Von Hayek who was brought over to the US from his UNPAID position in the University of Vienna would have been homeless. Von Hayek's salaries while he was working in various teaching positions were funded by Volker. Does that mean that these individuals through foundations control the world? Absolutely not. There is not a single shred of evidence to support that theory.

1984 doesn't mention the NWO Rothschilds and the Rockefellers ruling the world.  

HG Wells  the Sci-Fi author gave his OPINION of why a social democratic World Order should be established.

For "War Is a Racket" by Smedley Butler, of course there is a military-industrial complex, that is out in the open. Does that prove that the earth is run by an NWO? Do corporate and/or other organizational cartels prove the existence of this mythical NWO?  Not at all. Of course certain businesses would like to have certain policies implemented and so they lobby the government in attempts to have their way.  That's the "Free market" in work.

In "The Naked Capitalist" by W. Cleon Skousen, the author gives his opinion of “Tragedy and Hope” along with adding in some forged facts such as the alleged 20 million given to communist leaders by Jacob Schiff.

"Dark Alliance" by Gary Webb describes the CIA's complicity in the drug trade. That by itself doesn't prove any NWO.

"The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow" by Constance Cumbey, a Christian Fundamentalist chastising non-Christian faiths. Enough said.

"None Dare Call It Conspiracy" by Gary Allen is another piece of work filled with misdirection and misquotes.  For example in his desperate attempt to prove the NWO he takes Carol Quigley out of context when quoting Quigley as saying that he has no "aversion to it" regarding the "network". While Quigley himself claimed that the network existed "to coordinate the international activities and outlooks of the English-speaking world into one (group) work to maintain peace, to help the backward, colonial and underdeveloped areas to advance toward stability, law and order, and prosperity along lines similar to those taught at Oxford and the University of London" Where is the conspiracy in that statement? Where is the New World Order being described as a  "One World Government"?

"Descent into Slavery" by Des Griffin,  a Christian fundamentalist whose works are filled with opinion, speculation and of course biased criticism of non-Christian beliefs.

"The Big White Lie" by Michael Levine. and  "The Politics of Heroin" by Alfred McCoy. Again CIA complicity in the drug trade does not prove the NWO.

"Compromised" by Terry Reed & John Cummings.: Who said that US politics is not corrupt? Does corruption prove the NWO? No.

"Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins. In the book John lashes out against neocons, corporatists and the Chicago school boys not the Illuminati/NWO.

"The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy And Its Geostrategic Imperatives" by Zbigniew Brzezinski.: The modern US has strategic objectives, what else is new? By the way Zbigniew is a well-known critic of Russia, a supporter of Anti-Russian policies and he also speaks of containing China. What happened to the New WORLD order?

"Philip Dru Administrator" by Edward Mandell House:  This is a work of fiction speculating on a war between the Eastern and Western US, and how is this relevant to proving the NWO?

"Crossfire" by Jim Marrs, " is a book speculating that JFK was assassinated by the US government. As if government leaders in past times haven't been assassinated by members of their own government. Still doesn't prove an NWO.

"Global Tyranny Step By Step" by William F Jasper: Paranoia and pure speculation about the UN where the US has VETO power.

"The Unauthorized Biography of George Bush" by Webster Tarpley & Anton Chaiken. The book alleges that Prescott Bush was in fact a NAZI for his one share and his position as a board member of the Union Banking Corporation which allegedly had ties with the German industrialist Fritz Thyssen. The Union Banking corporation by the way was incorporated in 1924 when Fritz was still a member and supporter of the German National People's Party. Fritz did not even join the NAZI party until 1933. In any case the followers of Larouche don't believe in a NWO. Tarpley and Larouche believe in an Anglo-American British order that is in opposition to Russia, China and usually India.


So to frequent ZH there is a requirement to believe in the NWO?


Tue, 05/11/2010 - 10:10 | 343287 Yophat
Yophat's picture

LOL....did you find all those assumptions all by yourself???? ROFLMAO

So many to choose from.....for one Bo dives into much more than just the drug trade.....and points out it goes all the way to George HW Bush.....but of course you wouldn't know that since you've never read it and just spouting off the canned summary you've found.  Same with the rest of the books.  For a 2nd example over 1/3 of "The Politician" is references and source material.  Kind of like discounting "Philip Dru Administrator" since its fiction....definitely better not read the Marcinko books...LOL!

Absolutely not.....just a desire for the truth....which you obviously don't evidenced again by the above!

Usually is much more beneficial to read and formulate your own opinions!!!  Of course that means digging a little deeper.....and thinking!

Tue, 05/11/2010 - 15:20 | 344253 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

And what does YOUR OPINION have to do with any of the FACTUAL inconsistencies and misdirections used in your cited materials?

George HW Bush had been the Director of Central Intelligence. The CIA of course had been complicit in the drug trade at the least. How does that prove your mythical NWO?

Oh,really I'm still waiting for you to prove that Eisenhower was a communist. Why not an alien?

A desire for the truth as YOU DEFINE IT, is what you want to fit your views in order to justify your NWO.

Indeed, go on and dig yourself a deeper hole with your own paranoia.



Tue, 05/11/2010 - 17:19 | 344503 Yophat
Yophat's picture

LOL....FACTUAL....whatever you say Chief!

Just one piece in the puzzle.....FYI - George HW was involved with the CIA long before he became the director.  In fact he is most likely the one responsible for the hit on JFK.  But that's neither here nor there.

Operation Keelhaul is probably the best example that Eisenhower personally directed.  I wouldn't so much call him a communist as I would NWO.  Like I stated earlier....pieces of the puzzle in all of the books....haven't come across one book that really lays it all out.  But when its a is usually difficult to discover the truth....but usually over time the truth comes out.

Desire for the truth period!  You wouldn't be on ZH if you didn't want some financial truth in comparison to the spin on Bloomberg, CNBC, etc etc etc.

I could care less what you believe on NWO.....and I certainly don't have to justify anything.  If you are interested in learning more.....great the resources have been provided to you.....if not...who cares!  Life will go on regardless....history will roll forth....and everyone will make their own decisions for better or worse!

At the end of the day it all comes down to two options - Republic or based upon rule of law....or force.  Everyone has to make a choice as to what path they are going to go down....and how much they are willing to sacrifice to do it.  NWO is all about the latter.  One world, one government....and its not a republic!  The New Age movement is the spiritual aspect.....they claim they want peace....but their peace means eradicating everyone else.....certainly something Oprah isn't going to announce to her worldwide audience while pushing the new age agenda.  Hence the secrecy....


Tue, 05/11/2010 - 17:47 | 344573 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

So you're making an assumption that Eisenhower is not a communist, but an NWO puppet when even your own cited materials do not give such indications?

Those are your opinions, not FACTS.


Like I said show me evidence for this NWO conspiracy. All you do and continue to do is give me your own personal opinions. That's all the NWO pseudo-religionists have to fall back on at the end of the day.

Wed, 05/12/2010 - 13:42 | 346766 Yophat
Yophat's picture

I said they were my opinions.....and source material is just that....source material!

Define a FACT!

I would define a fact as a data point....but data points are wide open for interruptation....just like everything else in life....hence the rainbow of flavors in people's perspectives.

Well I reckon I could give you a bunch of video clips by a variety of world leaders all calling for a NWO....but I doubt that would do any good based on your previous comments....and if you were interested you could do it yourself on youtube. 

At the end of the day you have to figure it out for yourself.  What you are asking is for Bush Jr to come forward and admit he took out the twin towers and WTC7.....which just ain't gonna happen!  So you gather the evidence wherever you can find it and come to your own conclusion.  Thermite in the dust.....what does it mean?  How did it get there?  When?

That basically relates to everything - God, the devil, religion, economics, business, etc etc etc....and it usually comes down to your personal lens which is crafted by your personal experiences.

Wed, 05/12/2010 - 15:06 | 347140 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

And as I've explained here before there have been many other such World orders in the past.


All you're doing is extrapolating wild assumptions from the very sources you cite to fit your own artificial model. There is as much proof for the 'NWO' running the world as there is for aliens.


Thu, 05/13/2010 - 05:29 | 348580 saxecoburggotha
saxecoburggotha's picture

Now as anyone can clearly see you have officially gone off the deep end to justify your beliefs. From misquoting sources to arguing with established dictionaries including, but not limited to Oxford, Merriam-Webster and Random House to now getting into x-files paranoia.

You do realize that for most of history more often than not Europeans would combat each other rather than non-Europeans?


Thu, 05/13/2010 - 12:32 | 349425 Yophat
Yophat's picture

ROFLMAO....must have scared you silly as you are resorting to dictionaries again! 

Perhaps you should visit the UN and tour the room for yourself...see what your gut tells you! 

God does exist....and so does the devil.  Two choice.  Choose wisely!!!

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