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Simon Black Advocates Leaving America As The "Most Effective" Way To Fight The Battle With "The Mob-Installed Government Beast"
And now for some very provocative, "out of the box" views: Simon Black, better known as Sovereign Man, presents some disturbing thoughts which are sure to get the broader spirits elevated. Instead of continuing to fight what some see as a losing ideological battle with a government which no longer even remotely represents the broader population's interests, Black says simply to walk away: "When you think about it, what we call a 'country' is nothing more than a large concentration of people who share common values. Over time, those values adjust and evolve. Today, cultures in many countries value things like fake security, subordination, and ignorance over freedom, independence, and awareness. When it appears more and more each day that those common values diverge from your own, all that's left of a country are irrelevant, invisible lines on a map. I don't find these worth fighting for...The government beast in your home country feeds on debt and taxes, and the best way to win is for bright, productive people to move away with their ideas, labor, and assets. This effectively starves the beast and accelerates its collapse. Then, when the smoke clears, you can move back and help rebuild a free society." Perhaps Black is right and this is the best, and possibly only, non-violent way to fight the political-financial plutocracy?
From Sovereign Man
Tell me if you think it's worth fighting for
Date: November 29, 2010
Reporting From: Katoomba, New South Wales, Australia
In 43 BC, over 2,000 years ago, warring consuls Antony, Lepidus, and Octavian were duking it out with each other over control of Rome following Julius Caesar's assassination the prior March.
Each had legions at his disposal, and Rome's terrified Senate sat on its hands waiting for the outcome.
Ultimately, the three men chose to unite their powers and rule Rome together in what became known as the Second Triumvirate. This body was established by a law named lex Titia on this date (give or take depending on how you convert the Roman calendar) in 43 BC.
The foundation of the Second Triumvirate is of tremendous historical importance: as the group wielded dictatorial powers, it represents the final nail in the coffin in Rome's transition from republic to malignant autocracy.
The Second Triumvirate expired after 10-years, upon which Octavian waged war on his partners once again, resulting in Mark Antony's famed suicide with Cleopatra in 31 BC. Octavian was eventually rewarded with rich title and nearly supreme power, and he is generally regarded as Rome's first emperor.
Things only got worse from there. Tiberius, Octavian's successor, was a paranoid deviant with a lust for executions. He spent the last decade of his reign completely detached from Rome, living in Capri.
Following Tiberius was Caligula, infamous for his moral depravity and insanity. According to Roman historians Suetonius and Cassius Dio, Tiberius would send his legions on pointless marches and turned his palace into a bordello of such repute that it inspired the 1979 porno film named for him.
Caligula was followed by Claudius, a stammering, slobbering, confused man as described by his contemporaries. Then there was Nero, who not only managed to burn down his city but was also the first emperor to debase the value of Rome's currency.
You know the rest of the story-- Romans watched their leadership and country get worse and worse.
All along the way, there were two types of people: the first group were folks that figured, "This has GOT to be the bottom, it can only get better from here." Their patriotism was rewarded with reduced civil liberties, higher taxes, insane despots, and a polluted currency.
The other group consisted of people who looked at the warning signs and thought, "I have to get out of here." They followed their instincts and moved on to other places where they could build their lives, survive, and prosper.
I'm raising this point because I'd like to open a debate. Some consider the latter idea of expatriating to be akin to 'running away.' I recall a rather impassioned comment from a reader last week who suggested that "leaving, i.e. running away, is certainly not the proper response."
I find this logic to be flawed.
While the notion of staying and 'fighting' is a noble idea, bear in mind that there is no real enemy or force to fight. The government is a faceless bureaucracy that's impossible attack. People who try only discredit their argument because they become marginalized as fringe lunatics.
Remember John Stack? He's the guy who flew his airplane into the IRS building in Austin, Texas earlier this year because he had a serious philosophical disagreement over tax issues.
While his ideas may have had intellectual merit, they were immediately dismissed due to his murderous tactics. Violence is rarely the answer, and it often has the opposite effect as intended, frequently serving to bolster support for the government instead of raising awareness of its shortcomings.
Unless/until government paramilitaries start duking it out with citizen militia groups in the streets, this is an ideological battle... and it's an uphill battle at best.
Government controlled educational systems institutionalize us from childhood that governments are just, and that we should all subordinate ourselves to authority and to the greater good that they dictate in their sole discretion.
You're dealing with a mob mentality, plain and simple. Do you want to waste limited resources (time, money, energy) trying to convince your neighbor that s/he should no not expect free money from the government?
You could spend a lifetime trying to change ideology and not make a dent; people have to choose for themselves to wake up, it cannot be forced upon them. And until that happens, they're going to keep asking for more security and more control because it's the way their values have been programmed.
When you think about it, what we call a 'country' is nothing more than a large concentration of people who share common values. Over time, those values adjust and evolve. Today, cultures in many countries value things like fake security, subordination, and ignorance over freedom, independence, and awareness.
When it appears more and more each day that those common values diverge from your own, all that's left of a country are irrelevant, invisible lines on a map. I don't find these worth fighting for.
Nobody is born with a mandatory obligation to invisible lines on a map. Our fundamental obligation is to ourselves, our families, and the people that we choose to let into our circles... not to a piece of dirt that's controlled by mob-installed bureaucrats.
Moving away, i.e. making a calculated decision to seek greener pastures elsewhere, is not the same as 'running away'... and I would argue that if you really want to affect change in your home country, moving away is the most effective course of action.
The government beast in your home country feeds on debt and taxes, and the best way to win is for bright, productive people to move away with their ideas, labor, and assets. This effectively starves the beast and accelerates its collapse. Then, when the smoke clears, you can move back and help rebuild a free society.
I'd really like to know what you think-- which is the right thing to do, stay or leave? What are you planning to do?
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NotApplicable- spot on Sir, spot on.
Funny, I have been planning to move out of America for two years,.. I'm almost there, I just won't submit my family be a slave to bankers debt. Call it what you will, but it's time to abandon this country. The biggest problem is moving assets, even after paying the taxes.
Lucky for me I have dual citizenships.
plus you still have to pay US taxes, due to world wide income basis!
Oh come on - as if there are no ways around it. Corporations do it all the time - just takes a bit of creativity...
I moved to small town, bought big house with about an acre of land. Loving it. Aiming to be as self sufficient as can, so in a way, I've "shrugged" and moved into the valley. Using skills for own philosophy on life to best increase my standard of living for my family.
Panama....Costa Rica....Brazil...SE Asia...
Forget Panama, they just signed a deal with the Devil.
As will all of the others.
For instance, right now the US Treasury Dept. is hiring people to work with governments in other countries in order to standardize global accounting. Sure it sounds reasonable, but is it really worth it to the US taxpayer to pay someone to work, say in Honduras?
http://www.hondurasweekly.com/international/3047-honduras-finance-minist...
So UST is teaching other countries on how NOT to write down bad debts...
I guess the upside is we are exporting something....
If a Panamanian knows that you're from the US you will get charged 10x for everything. It all started with the original canal projects and got exacerbated with the .mil bases. They are on to Americans and can smell the suckers a mile away.
There is no substitute for knowing the prices.
- or knowing the locals personally, hell, buy `em a beer, it's all good.
Just curious... Do you live there?
The grass always looks greener elsewhere....
http://www.heritage.org/index/Country/Chile
great website and link. thanks!
- thanks jmoney !
Stay and drop out, go underground.
Vaible option.
The things you own end up owning you.~Tyler Durden
I like to fantasize about an experiment where we divide the U.S. into two parts. One part we will call the blue states based on their overt modern liberalism. They can pursue their collectivist dreams to their hearts' content. Free stuff for everybody, tax the rich 99%, new 2000 page regulations every month, social justice, government schools, open borders to Mexicans (only), gay soldiers, etc. ,etc.
The other states we will call the red states can go libertarian with little or no government, scant taxation, minimal regulation, no licensing, hell, throw in a no speed limit autobahn, etc. Maximum freedom. Then let's go even a short time like 10 or 20 years and see how we're doing. Then lets project out a century. Who will be more prosperous, happy and opportunity laden?
Furthermore, as things deteriorate in the red states they are not allowed in the blue states unless they take some sort of citizenship oath of liberty. Maybe we won't let them vote. I say this because I constantly see people escape idiot states like CA, NY and NJ only to institute the same crap in other states. They are like damn locusts consuming freedom and productivity whereever they go.
Walter E. Williams, PhD asks the question if we can peaceably separate. In theory we can. In reality we cannot. Modern liberals know they cannot let the productive class escape. They need them like the ox to turn the grist mill for their socialist utopia.
An alternate to the above article is to run internally. You cannot escape the Fed but you can go to states with no income tax, reasonable tax and regulatory burdens and make a smaller statement.
You realize what you're advocating is states' rights, right?
Lincoln made damn sure that idea was killed along with 5% of the US population.
Yes. I am. The states came together to form the Federal government, not the other way around. Without 2/3 signing, no federal government. The States are the "principles" and is essence the sovereigns in the Constitution. That's why the feds were limited in powers in the Constitution while states were unlimited except by things written into it. In essence the Federal government could only do the things listed in the Constitution and nothing else (unless amended, like Prohibition) while the States could do everything except those things forbidden by the Constitution. It was genius while it lasted.
good idea - if history is a guide though, once the blues run out of money and credit, they will invade the reds under some "justification"...
Good point. Socialism is parasitic in nature and needs new hosts. Note that after the communist revolutions in any country all progress stops. If you need that '57 Chevy you can still get them in Cuba.
The idea didnt die, only men did and by and large their women and children survived. Its still very popular in my area and the flag still flies in the center of towns.
Depends on where you live I guess.
Of course, with reconstruction, another fire was lit that still burns to this day. The seed is there, it just needs the right spark. Lincoln just kicked the can down the road. The ideals of each side are mutually exclusive and resolutions can only be temporary. Do you value local government or federal government? Further, do you value strict boundaries to the power of the federal government? All simple questions... but worlds apart.
and hide in plain sight.
ROFL, and where else are you guaranteed the ability to be an American, under American ideals, and American rules?
Oh that's right, nowhere.
If we don't right it, it ain't going be swell anywhere else.
Who is fighting the gov't? You're not understanding the 'fight'. It's against the people that CONTROL, the neccessary extension of human collaboration known as gov't. Who are the MONETARISTS, the big banksters, the big red queen. Those are who you want dissasociated from the policy gov'ts make.
Gov't = policy
Banksters set the policy.
Realize it's stupid to blame gov't, go after who CONTROLS gov't.
Someone needs to put down his copy of Atlas Shrugged. Being part of something means sticking it out through the good and the bad.
thank you...i was scrolling down waiting for someone to throw that in...took a bit. However, i agree with Black. Fuck em all for starters and dont fight a war you cant win. There is nothing, imho, worth fighting for here...invisible lines. Sad when you lose all faith and just want to dig a hole.
Personally, im trying the Howard Roark style of life...fuck it alll....
What??? You are not willing to fight to view the annual Target Tramplings. What are you? Some kind of Liberty Lover.
Sarc/off
I'm here to stay, and trying to change things.
My latest video: A public service message from Greasy Hair Bear, chairman of F'dIA
I like your vids :-)
I'm staying, there really is no where else to go and having been born here in New Amsterdam I feel an obligation to give as best I can in the spirit of 76 and all those who have lived and died fighting for it. Maybe I'm naive but so be it. "wherever you go...there you are" (Bucaroo Banzai or Confucius depending who you ask...)
Oh, come on now. It'll be fun to burn down some Big Bank local branches and some State Houses. The war may not be won but the battles will be a fine show. History will be made.
For those who can't fuck it alll, try Fukitol(R), the best pill there is.
Actually, business-wise productivity and assets move quickly. It's one of the reasons they are going overseas. People on the other hand cannot do so very easily. The entrepreneurs can and will. I would say if you want to flee, flee. If, like me you are here, then by necessity you have to fight the ideology wars. The left has been doing it for decades and they have been winning. Interestingly, they never have fled to their socialist utopias in Cuba or the old Soviet Union.
There will always be Dagny Taggarts in the world, but not many. Not enough to save the system from itself, much less right it.
Just think -- if every person in high office had the integrity of Howard Roark.
But, I dream....
Even in this day and age, most people still have ties to family and community. Some don't, and can pick up and move wherever. Seems there are real trade-offs to that type of lifestyle.
In my opinion, if you take this route like Sovereign Man, at some point you forfeit your right to take pot shots at your old country. Worry about whatever banana republic you've washed up in, throwing around the money you made in America.
If you want to reform America, move back and get to work. Otherwise shut up. Talk is cheap.
While I'm under the yoke, I'll keep talking. When I leave, I'll happily shut up.
Reality is a b*tch, and I never asked for the system I was born into. I'll play by the rules, all the way to the end, and at the moment, the rules say a divorce from a country moving towards collective insanity *is* still possible.
"While I'm under the yoke, I'll keep talking. When I leave, I'll happily shut up."
That's all I ask. When you find a place where you get to control the system you live under, let me know where it is.
It isn't a question of Nirvana, it is one of acceptability. As in any marriage, I can tolerate a lot, but there is a breaking point. I find myself diametrically opposed to the mob rule that our democracy has degenerated into, I abhor the passivity of the mass of our populace, and I actively wish to get to the crashing and rebirth period soonest. I can help that last by being one of many that remove the funding that is in large part supporting the bad behavior I have no say in.
As for my own circumstances, I'll most likely take a multi-flag approach: citizenship under one flag, reside in a country with a second flag, and hold my investments with brokerages located in countries with yet again different flags. Is isn't perfect and requires vigilant monitoring, but it can do the trick.
Just because Nirvana doesn't exist doesn't mean I have to resign myself to tacitly supporting a very abusive relationship.
Norway or New Zealand - nice live style, expensive but you'll be able to stay, English easy.
If you're willing to learn a new language go small - Montenegro or Slovenia.
These countries have age restrictions... so I doubt most of the readers of this blog would qualify. Although being extremely wealthy always helps.
I guess that leaves me with the backwoods of the Ozarks.
I would tend to agree in spirit, but disagree in fact, my reference point being Germany around 1935.
When the people of moral constitution just leave, the beast grows without bound feeding on the weaknesses of the dumb and the grim. Those who opt out early might do best for some values of "best", but the beast will not die for all that.
Note that yes it eventually does (did) die, but not before putting up a fight. I don't think we want to go there in a nuclear world.
I would argue that those who would up and leave their community at this stage are unlikely to be our "best." These would be itinerent people with weak social connections who value hanging on to their money more than essentially anything else.
Since wherever they move will also have taxes and costs of living, they are likely making this choice to save some single-digit percentage of their fortune. Perhaps low double digits. This isn't negligible, but neither is it enough to send normal people to the boats. Ironically, our upper tax rates are the lowest that they've been in decades. What seems lost on the angry right is that Obama hasn't actually raised taxes at all.
At this point in the flow of things, you are correct.
I was projecting a bit further down the road. The moment I speak to will come when an avowed Corporatist is elected US President with the platform to defend and expand profits. I think then the line will be drawn in the sand -- to fight or to fly -- at which time my comment will be the play.
Unless you smoke.
Unless you use dollars (QEII is a tax, albeit indirect one)
Left/Right ... wtfever ... they will bleed you dry.
Have no fear. There are plenty more stages left in our decent into the black abyss of self imposed hell. In fact, I suspect there are as many stages on the way down as there are (minor) stages of denial. Of one thing I am certain. We only need to hang around to find out.
Ya know what, CD? The whole discussion is a cluster-f$#%k.
I'm as pessimistic as they get, but I'm not going anywhere. I won't go looking for a fight with anyone, neighbor, or cop, or militia. But I will protect my stuff. Under most conditions of hardship and oppression this will suffice. Call me naive, but that's the way it usually has been in similar circumstances. Sounds like a lot of folks here are just dreaming. Leave? Nah. Life in any other country, unless one is simply wealthy, would not be any better than the imagined conditions in the U. S..
So true. The amazing thing is watching the lighbulbs slowing light up in ever growing #'s of people. The denial is still pervasive and strong, but the sense of doom is growing, as it should......
Protecting their money, deserting the battle, self-love in the highest order. Not one word about a connection to the land of their birth. What caused this unnatural disaffection, this loss of soul?
No chet, they are among the most valuable members of society. They just don't love their country. What disease infected them?
They will one and all say, 'It's not me, it's the country-politics-society.' But every generation has had to contend with something.
Poverty, fascism, social dislocation. But never,never,never has this country been so wealthy and generous and free and never, never, never has there been such a revolting bunch as this, leaving their mother, spitting in her eye.
They are the most valuable. Their bank accounts prove that. But their souls are penniless. They can't see anything worth more than an endless beach and brown servants and big houses cheap, an endless adolescence.
I can't take solace in knowing that the remnant will make America greater (it will) or that the loss of the deserters won't matter (it will).
I just want to know how the nation I was born in and love like I love my family and my soul, can have children that want to abandon her because of self-interest. How?
The bones of American patriots hallow these shores. The blood of American patriots steams on rocks and deserts far from home and their grateful souls would not have it any other way. Honor is theirs forever.
And yet there are those that leave to beat the tax system and luxuriate in warmer climes. Some may even delude themselves that they are political refugees. Sorrow. Shame. Anger.
But mostly sorrow.
Well put. There is little I can add to that.
Although in my opinion there are many ways in which one can end up with a large bank account and still add little value.
I just want to know how the nation I was born in and love like I love my family and my soul, can have children that want to abandon her because of self-interest. How? Because dearest mommy has turned into a thieving bloated whore. She has raided my piggy bank, is drunk on power and spreads them for any money offered to her from solicitous bankers.
Mommy has a child who believes in her; she'll get well one day, perhaps a stretch of rehab and some "good ole religin" will turn her from her wicked ways. Having blinkered dolts like you, who wrap themselves and their pathetic padded patriotic drivel in the flag and keep her fed in alcohol and a steady stream of Johns, will stop her screeching tantrums for another day.
Through Pollyanna visions of Utopia in your denial of the obvious bankruptcy of the nation, the infiltration of the bureaucracy by bankers, by denial of the enslavement of the nation to a debt-based currency, by accepting an unconstitutional money, taxation and judicial system, thats how.
Wealthy, generous and free. Fuck me, you moron. There are 43 million on food stamps, the government has never been more generous with our money, straight into the coffers of the bond holders and banks and Wall St firms, our debt is closing in on 14 trillion and the TSA is groping our kids. Wise the fuck up. The invasion of the USA happened decades ago. The 5th column is in your hallowed halls without you blinking an eye. Patriot my ass. You are a either a useful idiot or a troll.
You wouldn't know what freedom meant if it was handed to you on a plate. In fact it was. Remember 1776?
Go let some fireworks off on the 4th of July, beat your chest in patriotic fervor all you like. Me, I'm going to keep denying this socialist regime every fucking cent I can and live and demand that my family lives true to true spirit of the constitution: LIBERTY.
Your pathetic flag-waving statements of denigration recognize that people are leaving and yet don't ask the for reasons why. Moron.
Fuck you and every one of you big government, wealth thieving banker supporters. I've had a gut full of denial from the likes of you. Get ye gone you smarmy bastard.
America is not the Fed, the banks, the government, the bureaucrats or Wall Street.
America existed before all those. It will exist after all those. The people laboring, birthing and dieing, the soil and the myth of the nation rising, shining and enduring is America.
America is the line of ships and planes filled with young men and women patrolling hostile waters with a glimmer in their eye and fire in their bellies. It is the democracy that grows on distant shores from the sweat dropping off of a Marine's brow.
America is the freedom that was won by soldiers, farmers, builders and inventors over the centuries as this nation grew. As such, it is inviolable, inaccessible to all those that would harm it. As long as Americans love it, it will endure, grow and prevail.
Do not despair of the republic. Old bones are the walls of our freedom.
I'm sorry, but fuck you too. More of the same red white and blue jingoism. Let's get our kids to hunt down and kill more foreigners. Get out the brass band.
It shouldn't be that we have our kids patrolling waters and distant lands. For the love of Pete! Read the goddamned consti-fucking-tution.
Defend our borders, yes. Patrol someone else's. NO. Hold live fire exercises on someone else's borders? NO. Oh, they retaliated? What did you expect? Just that, I'll bet.
Mother fucking war machine, boogyman in every corner, red under every bed, propaganda driven ass holes. False glory seeking drivel.
I junked you. Hard.
You took the words right out of my mouth!
Bravo!!!!
America is the line of ships and planes filled with young men and women patrolling hostile waters with a glimmer in their eye and fire in their bellies. It is the democracy that grows on distant shores from the sweat dropping off of a Marine's brow.
Oh, I love good satire! You did go a bit overboard with that last sentence though...
Just one more thought, Al Gorerhythm.
You mention 1776.
Google Shay's Rebellion, 1786.
Look at who rebelled (farmers), what the rebellion was over (taxes), who put down the rebellion,(Washington).
The pater patriae was ready to slaughter his fellow countrymen, virtually the day after American independence was won, to collect taxes.
Consider this next time you think 'things have really gotten bad'.
Some things never change.
Get a grip. Connection to the land of our birth? What kind of pseudo-metaphysical nonsense is that? I'd move the god damn moon if it meant I could get away from the crazy shitheads on this planet who want nothing more than to control me and my future. If all you have is some ethereal connection to the patch of dirt on which you were born I'd say your reality is on very shaky ground, no pun intended.
Further, if you really "love your country" then the best thing to do would be to stop supporting it and let it implode. A sharp sudden implosion would lead to a much brighter future. A slow decline will ensure that the land ends up impoverished and all traces of what you claim to care about will be erased.
America was an idea that was murdered by the money-hungry power-mongers who don't give two shits about what you care about.
You're only an American because your ancestors left the countries they loved to go to America. What you wrote could have been written by their freinds and family in Europe 200 years ago. I'll be leaving the USA in a few years for the same reasons your and my ancestors came here. I too feel shame, sorrow and anger but it is not because I am leaving, but because I feel I must.
Doug Casey
Why people think that borders and governments are set in stone is actually beyond my comprehension. People forget that there are areas of France, Spain, and Britain, to name just a few among old and stable European countries, where even today, people are actively talking about leaving. And they're at least as stable as the U.S. is — and notice that I call it the United States, not America. As far as I'm concerned, America has disappeared. America was an idea, not a place, and it's been replaced with the United (by force) States.
September 28, 2009
cougar you changed your picture to a true mountain loin. i am so damn slow i don't know where to fine your latest chapter of diamond and sis, that coggy dog put up for you. i was reading it, of course i am so ADD i don't know where to find it. damn some god damn motorist struck and you got killed last weekend in snowmass canyon, MM 27.5. i am sorry.
cougar canyon, bitchez†
All needs are met:
http://madscienceunlimited.com/fiction/
The most recent story is the last link on that page, and you can see the other are there two. Becoming quite a collection!
The Asian tigers are going extinct, but the puma are doing fine. Don't mourn for the puma, they get their licks in once in a while when some jogger gives the full measure and falls prey. It's not much but nature takes a little back.
Darkatana
a dark tale
i just got a katana sword, fun for all.
"Where liberty dwells will be my country."
Ben Franklin.
America, Pre Federal Reserve was the last country where liberty truly dwelled.
Only if you were a white male practicing a Protestant faith.
I know what you meant, everyone does. And I'm not being sarcastic nor critical. Just noting that the fight was not resolved for every citizen equally until the 70's, just in time to lose the entire battle to the banksters.
We finally get a black President -- at about the time in history when people thought all along we might, 30 years into the ERA era -- and he takes office totally working for the banks. How fucked up is that? If I was a black man I'd be about 10 kinds of pissed off.
Coug, he HAD to be a black man (or half, anyway) or they could not get away with what they are doing/going to do the blacks in this country. Wait til unemployment (last hired/first fired) gets cut off, SS reduced or eliminated, welfare, food stamps, etc get cut off. This will impact the poor and minorities the hardest. If a white man/woman were to do that, we'd have the Watts/S Side of Chicago riots all over again. As long as the figurehead is one of "them", it will keep them calmer a little longer. I just can't wait for "austerity" to really hit the US.
I'm certain that Gays & Lesbians would not agree that the fight was resolved in the 70's.
As for blacks being pissed at Obama, you are mistaken. He's polling above 90% with that base demographic.
Team America, oops. sorry, thought you were replying to me not above.
GLBT: You are correct. I'm reflecting my age here; Gay issues became "an issue" after I was already largely out of circulation in the "issues" realm. Seldom crosses my personal radar as such.
Blacks: They might be at 90%. Notice I said "if I were a black man" in a weasel way. But I'm pissed enough at him already being a white guy, only because he's fiddled as our Rome has burned.
??? I thought you lived in Bay Area. How could you NOT notice GLBT issues? Cougar, you need to roam a little more. ; )
I wander all over the BA. But you can do all kinds of interesting things and not bump your head on a Gay rights banner. I would have to say that the Gay rights thing has definitely graduate from fringe movement begging for recognition, to mainstream king-maker machine. Meaning, most of the interesting stuff happens behind closed doors having nothing to do with the sexuality aspect, and everything to do with the subterfuge at play. Or, politics as usual. Had to happen, of course. The revolution to be successful must destroy the true revolutionaries first. Only then can it join the ranks of successful enterprises and issue an IPO.
Yes, very true, was just teasing you a tad. I remember going to a "gay rights" fundraiser in SF, maybe 8 yrs ago (?). No one there was gay! It was all straight liberals. I thought that was very weird. Kinda like going to a gay bar and everyone is straight.
My current house used to be (among other things since it was built in 1948) a gay bar. We bought it and, having no interesting in the original uses, rezoned and are slowly converting it into a lovely garden-style home. A delightful bit of history right there.
Edit: To whoever junked me, the gays in the neighborhood who used to go to the bar come by the house and say they really like what we've done for it. A guy who came out of the closet in my bar/house says the gay community ought to do a fundraiser or something to help with the renovation. There is a lot of gay pride around here, it matters little to me, but I'm glad they feel a connection still to something that is obviously long past. You make community where you can find it. I'll totally in favor of that, I don't care who you are.
Not really. I would gladly give up my right to vote if I could go back to that time. Voting is aggression anyways, unless the result of the vote is only binding to those who agree to be bound by the results, rather than applied to EVERYONE.
Projecting forward the rights movements that were already in place by the 1910's, women would have gained the right to vote just as they did in the Federal Reserve world.
Really, things couldn't have gotten much worse than they actually did under the Fed and the expansive federal government. Fair play tends to win out over the long term (ie over Jim Crow laws). Forcing change only breeds resentment, and said resentment is often misdirected (ie towards minorities).
your notion that "forcing change" is a problem is interesting. I've heard it before here, it rings slightly of "don't tread on me" wedded to Libertarian free-wheeling-it-ism. I don't know. Information asymmetries being what they are, few will actually see or understand the entire playing field. Not knowing can paralyze people when they really need to move forward. Sometimes it takes leadership to get us past petty self-interest and fear of the unknown and into broader fields of possibility. Those fields transcend money and profit, of course, and include what we all know about the overall human experience.
When I was about 25 and in teacher training the woman leading an exercise asked who in the room would be willing to take on a crisis in a leadership role. I raised my hand. I was the only one to do so. She turned to me and said there was some risk I might become a tin pot dictator. I left education as a career some time after that, and that comment will stay in my mind the rest of my life. I realized later (as usually happens) that the tin pot dictator ... was herself. But I was trapped in a system that I felt I needed to survive (higher-ed can generate a very real Stockholm Syndrome) so I did not defend myself, nor my field being education. The school systems lost a good teacher. I learned a lesson about self preservation. But I'll still raise my hand the next time that question comes up, and take my chances on whether or not I can avoid the path to dictator. Being a husband and father of two has perhaps tempered me. But if I am called by circumstance, I'll be there. Anyone wants to can try and stop me. In fact you can go first, but I'll be right there pushing you along.
Epic. Merci.
I thought his mom was white? Why doesn't that make him a white man? Did his dad give birth to him? I would call him of mixed race not black.
Not that it matters, but as a point of interest I think that technically O is less than half black, since his mum is 100% white and his dad, one Frank M. Davis,
http://www.blackpast.org/?q=aah/davis-frank-marshall-1905-1987
is probably a bit less than 100% black...
Am I wrong about that? Anyone?
Living in California, does anyone know how much in taxes we pay. Between, federal, state, city, county and misc. fees, we are way over 50%....
Those are only the taxes and fees you pay directly. You pay much more hidden tax in the cost of goods you buy. That's why a VAT will be suggested as a deficit solution, politicians LOVE hidden taxes.
??? This makes no sense. Freedom isn't taxes. Because Money isn't Freedom.
Some taxes should be 99 percent. Others lower. Who cares if one place taxes over 50 percent. The facts point the picture, whenever america had HIGH taxes, the times were good. Whenever we had LOW taxes, times were bad.
Besides this isn't even about taxes. You just are thinking of moving because you somehow think you're overtaxed in America (must be as bright as palin with that one).
So many people equating taxes with anything. Taxes should be the LEAST of your worries. The fear of tax rates is how the fascists bought your American soul.
America has prospered despite the tax code, not because of it. You trot out this leftist nonsense every time the topic comes up. You were wrong before, you're wrong now, and you'll be wrong on the next topic, too.
pure dreck that was. gack.....
You are right, it's not just the taxes, it all the losses in our rights, TSA,.. (just one example...)
Based on this logic then, the Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea and Maoist China should've been the most productive wealthiest places in the world. In the past tax "rates" were higher but effective taxation has always peaked at about 20% aggregate no matter the tax code. High tax rates come with big loopholes. Even if you have to invest in wool or expensive homes, people find ways to avoid. What I love is that families like the Kennedy's and Kerry's set up trusts and avoid taxes while saying it's our civic duty to pay taxes and immoral to avoid them. Hypocrites!
As Milton Friedman stated, political freedom without economic freedom is an illusion; i.e., if you are taxed at 100% your political freedom is worthless. You are owned.
jmc8888
You're argument would hold a little more water if governments were required upon penalty of death, not to spend more than they take in.
Squandered money, printing money, and compounding interest paid to the criminal banking class, is killing off productivity and investment, whether you believe in Utopian Socialism or Laissez- Faire up to and including private armies.
Your ignorance is appalling. Lucky for you, you found your way here. Now, you have a library card? I'm sure ZHers could start you a killer booklist. ;~)
F'ing ignorant idiot! Obviously the product of late 20th century public education with perhaps a little Ivy League college to complete the indoctrination.
wow...stunningly ignorant statement
Over 50%? I call BS on that (unless you are a millionaire with an incompetent tax advisor). Have you ever bothered to actually figure it out?
I'll bet the Average Joe in California pays a bunch, but it ain't no 50%.
47% of Americans pay no Federal income tax. Those people don't pay California income taxes either. They likely DO pay FICA (7.65%) and a hefty sales tax (8.75%), but property taxes (for those who must pay it) are low in la-la land.
To get to 50% you've got to be in the half that pay income taxes, and then you need to be in the highest tax bracket (35%) with enough AGI to make your marginal rate approach that 35% figure (mid 6-figures or higher)...then add in the California taxes and you could break 50%.
How many people fall into that lofty bracket? Not enough to offset the millions who don't pay at all. No way is the average tax burden near 50%.
You are describing the 1% income earners, which unfortunately starts at $350k per household. If you happen to be a schmuck household who's crawled their way up to that $350k income, but haven't figured out how to rob a bank and move beyond that, then look out. From personal experience, said household consists of a couple of white-collar wage slaves, who have no access to the tax-deductions allowed small businesses. So slap on the AMT and watch 50% of your your family's net gross go to various gubbermints.
But don't worry. After that hit, you still have $175k left. Although you'll most likely spend at least $60k annually on a house, another $12k on health insurance, $12k more on a couple of car payments, then there's the utilities and HOAs and $10k a year to help out your mother-in-law and another $10k a year for sis's kid in college, and and and.... Let's say you do pretty good and manage to squirrel away $30k per year in savings. Ignoring the fact that you're kicking savings rate butt on most of the rest of the country, at $30k per year, it will only take you, um, 33 years to amass a cool $1 Million smackers. (As if any of us start out in life earning $350k per year, and don't just manage to get there as we near retirement). You should be able to retire on that, right? I mean, $1 million earning, oh shit, 1% per year in Treasuries will pay you a whopping $10k per year.
Pre Tax.
Shit. Anyone got Bernie Madoff's number? Uncle Ben says I have to risk it all to get a higher return.
My own nightmare number is at least $2million, cause we're going to be need-based right out of any social security we're due, and I fully expect every pension plan I have as benefits to be defaulted on by corporations that will just wipe the slate clean during a convenient re-org. I'm busting my butt and playing every trick I can think of given the rules I'm presented with, and I can tell you first hand, at $350k they really do take more than half, and buddy, you don't feel rich at all. Just under the gun.
It's a big bonus that 99% of the country seems willing to vote YES! to tax my ass even more, cause the 50% they take now isn't making them comfortable enough. It would be more honest if the covetous souls would just show up at my door and take what I've earned at gun point. Then I'd have the comfort of knowing that my money went straight to an end user; and they'd maybe face up to the fact that theft is theft, it is just more obvious if you do it directly, rather than second hand via taxes with the assistance of a pander-to-the-masses government.
Didn't you forget something here, called FICA?
I live in California and I just did the calculations. I have had 35% deducted from my pay so far this year. This is before I pay any other taxes such as sales tax which is 9.25% where I am. My taxes are approaching 50%.
I would propose rather than 'leaving' we should seek to run our countries on a referenda basis using Switzerland as our model.
This way we would have sensible decisions from the electorate and not have to live in vain hope that our 'politicians' and /or bureaucrats making decisions in their own interest and not the electorate.
'Leaving' and 'coming back' is totally unrealistic, the whole lot may have gone down the tubes before we got back!
I have been living in Switzerland for 20 years and I expatriated this summer. Switzerland does have its referendums, but too often the politicians simply ignore or go around them. Switzerland has so many rules and laws it does often make the US look like the land of the "free".
However, there a few major differences between the US and Switzerland: The Swiss believe in financial and personal privacy. The Swiss also believe that tax evasion is a misdemeanor.
My final decision to expatriate was many sided. As far as tax reasons go, it was due far less to the dual-taxation burden of US/Swiss tax systems than to the IRS bullying and the Federal governments inability to recognize the difference beween private property and "wealth that needs to be shared".
What about Swiss banks caving to the IRS?
Once I expatriated US law no longer superceded Swiss law, and the Swiss banks are obligated by law to protect my privacy. Once I shed my US citizen, I was free of the IRS slave owners.
Sssshhhhhhhh! About this you must be vewy vewy qwiet! How else are we going to keep them in the traces down on the farm. Cattle don't have rights, as they have forgotten the concept of freedom.
Sensible decisions from the electorate?
California is engaged in that experiment; what do we think of the results? This might work if sufferage was earned somehow, but every sack of flesh out there has a vote.
Look at our Congress - every one of them won an election. You propose to overcome some fault in our elected representatives by having that same electorate vote more often.
Think a little harder on this one.
"Every sack of flesh out there has a vote---" LOL. thanks for the laugh. It's hilarious to expect a self-directing ignorant mob acting on the lowest possible common impulses to correct the course of anything; much less a complex modern state.
Too late if you expect to emigrate with some cash. Treasury and the IRS have made it near impossible for Americans to open bank accounts in other countries. Try living a reasonable lifestyle when your "bank" is a foreign ATM machine, and Uncle Sam can cut that cord any time he pleases.
Capital controls in place. Check.
Prop up the banking system with free mone and regulatory forbearance. Check
Load up the FED with all the bad assets (make FED the bad bank). Check
Destroy the Euro to prop up the dollar. Check
Nationalize 401K's and pensions. Next
Wind down the FED, default on FRN's, and print new re-valued dollars as treasury notes. ???
Then go all the way and give up your citizenship. Its not that hard, and the Obama administration suspended some of those exit fees and taxes that were around under the Bush admin (probably to encourage malcontents to leave for good).
Search google for "Debito". He's a former American who gave up his American citizenship to become Japanese. He's like the White Al Sharpton of Japan, always crying about racism. But he has good tips on the process of giving up your citizenship.
@YHWH
It's easy to spout about renouncing U.S. citizenship, but if you think about it for ten seconds you'll realize that it might be wise to first gain citizenship in that "other" place before telling Uncle Sugar to shove it. Most countries worth living in don't hand out citizenship easily or quickly. Yeah, you can marry a citizen to gain residency in most countries, but how many of those relationships last? It usually takes years and quite a bit of money to expatriate and renounce citizenship. Like I said above, living at the mercy of an ATM machine is not my idea of freedom.
Correct. Factual. Must have a place to call "home" legally before burning bridges.
Hard to do, yep. Expensive if you want fast, and limited options. Marriage not an option according to my wife, so.... the hard way it is.
It is all do-able. The question isn't the difficulty (the cage of US citizenship hasn't had every door and window barred, yet), but if you choose to continue to live in and support a country that would bar the doors and windows in the first place...
+ 1
Renouncing your U.S. citizenship used to be free. This year it now costs $450 under Obama. Call it an exit tax. And i understand there is a waiting list.
Gandhi tried non-cooperation.
British did not leave India because, there was a freedom struggle. They left because the Indians stopped buying all British Goods and actually burnt most of them down.
The main theme of Gandhi's movement was 'self-reliance'. He started making his own clothes and encouraged others to do the same.
Its now time for the world to become self reliant...self sufficient communities, grow own vegetables, etc.
Yeah!! That's really likely!!
Actually, if you stopped buying crap from China, it would be a start.
A Fair Trade movement could be possible.
But, of course, Wallymart would object.
Re: Growing own vegetables...I haven't had a chance to sort through everything to see what's truly going on, but there's a whole group of folks out there going bonkers of S 510 - Food Safety Modernization Act.
Supposedly it makes victory gardens illegal. Like I said, I've only seen rants regarding it, haven't looked over the text yet. Scary if true though.
I've read through most of s 510 and it is basically more government regulations to be inforced requiring more food inspections coming as a result of the panic outbreak from e-coli. It is your typical kill the fly with a shotgun approach that will unduely burden small mom and pop farmers that sell at your local farmers market.
it is bad news please call your senator ask them to either amend it to exempt local growers or to vote no.
It is a dangerous bill and deserves the ranting you are seeing.
http://www.govtrackinsider.com/articles/2010-10-15/s510
Thanks for the input Paz & Evl, gonna try to carve out some time tonight to get familiar with it.
I think that you can grow your own food for personal consumption. Like many things if you find that you are good at it or that you enjoy it then you will want to do it more and bigger. Well noes for you Mr. Bad Farmer.
I've been growing our own for years. In North San Diego- we have an endless growing season, from tomatoes right to potatoes in late Sept. But don't kid yourselves, the water, fertilizer, amendment/compost(without manure) and hours and hrs of time adds up. They are pricey, in the end. But less doctor bills most likely.
I've been growing our own for years. In North San Diego- we have an endless growing season, from tomatoes right to potatoes in late Sept. But don't kid yourselves, the water, fertilizer, amendment/compost(without manure) and hours and hrs of time adds up. They are pricey, in the end. But less doctor bills most likely.
hey banksterhater,
done any research on this? http://www.acresusa.com/books/closeup.asp?prodid=768&catid=27&pcid=2
I guess it depends where you live. I don't pay for my water it comes from my well. I compost my neighbors horse manure along with my chickens manure ground up leaves and grass and table scraps for my own compost. I use heirloom seeds and save them from year to year. In the long run it cost me less.
Just stay and wait. It won't be more than a few years...
Friends who retired in Hawaii were beaten and robbed by locals
Friends who exiled to Mexico cowered in fear of narcogovernment
Friends who exiled to tropical climes learned about tropical diseases
It's not easy for an American to exile
Taxes can be higher offshore
America still taxes exile income for another 7 years
Good luck coming back
http://www.taxmeless.com/page4.html
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00...
Last time I checked, Hawaii was part of the good old US of A.
Still is;
Grass not always greener on the other side of the fence
Your points are good. I've practiced medicine in multiple tropical countries and disease is a real problem, especially if you don't have sickle cell trait. On good thing about Malaria, you'll never mind the flu again. All areas (not countries, the difference is important) have their good and bad, but one truth exists. If you are part of the problem, that goes with you. I say this not to insult anyone who has posted. Your problems, though, may travel with you. Be sure you look inward, too.
As an aside, does anyone know a website or organization that helps with this move based on your skills and profession? In other words, specific for a Doctor, Teacher, Engineer of whatever type, or Architect? Getting licensed, getting set up, ect. You can't just fly in and open your clinic the next day.
so...the violence thingy is off the table? that sucks.
What an idiotic proposal. The US is moving enormous amounts of wealth to its territory through debt and this guy offers to move to the other side.
Next time piece of advice, do not stay behind the gun before pulling the trigger but move right in front.
The government beast in your home country feeds on debt and taxes, and the best way to win is for bright, productive people to move away with their ideas, labor, and assets. This effectively starves the beast and accelerates its collapse. Then, when the smoke clears, you can move back and help rebuild a free society.
In other words - Atlas Shrugged!
does off the grid work better?
.
"The government is a faceless bureaucracy that's impossible attack."
You will know their faces when they come to take what is yours(life, liberty, property, ect...)
Defend Yourself Fearlessly
Greetings from Hong Kong
I love Dim Sum.
FYI - It was a very important coded message to William you junktards.
Saw your stuff over at Max Keiser's place today!
He's looking at moving and is looking for suggestions.
Didn't Ayn Rand come up with this idea in Atlas Shrugged?
Time to get on the Taggart Express and head to Colorado, my guess is that aren't any valley to create our new society in. Damn, have to move to Canada instead.
Ouray Springs
http://www.ouraycolorado.com/Press
Yeah, fedgov owns nearly all of the west. Everything north of that? The Queen.
mikey K, is moving to boulder†
To those who plan to leave the US I say Good Bye.
Run away and come back when everything is better? Because you feel powerless to fix anything?
Maybe while you are gone you can grow a pair of Testicles.
Don't forget this country made you wealthy enough to be able to afford to flee.
Those who eat and run ARE the problem with this country. If they all leave, it won't be so bad, it's like being fumigated.
If they LEAVE the "Country" might actually be worth "fighting" for...
I see what the argument is, but I do not agree. Terrorism isn't the answer (Joe Stack), Nor is "Attacking" the Bureaucracy.
You must understand the system and then you can elicit desired outcomes with less effort and more predictablility.
Here are some things for you to think about.
One More Time:
+1
You must understand the system and then you can elicit desired outcomes with less effort and more predictablility
One party: Demicant Republicrats, fronts for usury banks, monopoly corporations and foundations owned by the money trust
What model of "World" do think we are most likely in now and headed towards?
http://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/usaf/2025/af/a-f.htm
Click on these links people. Good stuff and unique perspective.
We still can turn this ship around. My plan: 1. Work tirelessly for Ron Paul's end-the-fed efforts and his 2012 campaign. 2. Strategize with others about localism 3. Put my savings in Pms 4. Grow my food, sew my clothes, make my shoes, etc. So that I appreciate the fruits of my labor rather than take for granted the fruits of some strangers in far away lands 5. Educate myself and family 6. Take responsibility for my health 7. Refuse to allow anyone or anything to take away my peace. 8. Accept a drastic reduction in my living standard but not in my personal liberties. 9. Ask God for guidance and strength.
I won't be coming back and I have balls. Working and saving is the reason I have money. The country (government) took as much as they could.
The book is called Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.
I have already left. I refuse to work and pay taxes to this government. I am living on my savings and have not collected one dime from government assistance. I will return when this government returns to a reasonable balance where work pays more than government assistance.
Then you're never coming back?
Just curious, where did you end up and what criteria led to your decision? Considering a trip myself and would have left already but my youngest son ended up getting a dui and has complicated my plans.
My wife and I have been thinking about this a lot. We're both highly educated, no debt, renters, no kids yet, young. I can remember asking my wife what would it take for her to leave the US. She said "travel restrictions". After I saw my boss get patted down in Boston, I think we're there. These thugs are just fucking with us now. I think about the tax rate it's going to take for the productive class to sustain the parasitic class and I don't want to do it. It's going to be north of 60%. That means you don't begin working for yourself until mid July. JULY! Why bother?
It's going to be north of 60%. That means you don't begin working for yourself until mid July. JULY!
When all government fees, taxes and inflation are added up, they are well over 60% already unless you are a master of the universe
Tax Freedom Day in Belgium is 3 August 2010 and yet they stay put (for the chocolate?)