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Simon Black Advocates Leaving America As The "Most Effective" Way To Fight The Battle With "The Mob-Installed Government Beast"
And now for some very provocative, "out of the box" views: Simon Black, better known as Sovereign Man, presents some disturbing thoughts which are sure to get the broader spirits elevated. Instead of continuing to fight what some see as a losing ideological battle with a government which no longer even remotely represents the broader population's interests, Black says simply to walk away: "When you think about it, what we call a 'country' is nothing more than a large concentration of people who share common values. Over time, those values adjust and evolve. Today, cultures in many countries value things like fake security, subordination, and ignorance over freedom, independence, and awareness. When it appears more and more each day that those common values diverge from your own, all that's left of a country are irrelevant, invisible lines on a map. I don't find these worth fighting for...The government beast in your home country feeds on debt and taxes, and the best way to win is for bright, productive people to move away with their ideas, labor, and assets. This effectively starves the beast and accelerates its collapse. Then, when the smoke clears, you can move back and help rebuild a free society." Perhaps Black is right and this is the best, and possibly only, non-violent way to fight the political-financial plutocracy?
From Sovereign Man
Tell me if you think it's worth fighting for
Date: November 29, 2010
Reporting From: Katoomba, New South Wales, Australia
In 43 BC, over 2,000 years ago, warring consuls Antony, Lepidus, and Octavian were duking it out with each other over control of Rome following Julius Caesar's assassination the prior March.
Each had legions at his disposal, and Rome's terrified Senate sat on its hands waiting for the outcome.
Ultimately, the three men chose to unite their powers and rule Rome together in what became known as the Second Triumvirate. This body was established by a law named lex Titia on this date (give or take depending on how you convert the Roman calendar) in 43 BC.
The foundation of the Second Triumvirate is of tremendous historical importance: as the group wielded dictatorial powers, it represents the final nail in the coffin in Rome's transition from republic to malignant autocracy.
The Second Triumvirate expired after 10-years, upon which Octavian waged war on his partners once again, resulting in Mark Antony's famed suicide with Cleopatra in 31 BC. Octavian was eventually rewarded with rich title and nearly supreme power, and he is generally regarded as Rome's first emperor.
Things only got worse from there. Tiberius, Octavian's successor, was a paranoid deviant with a lust for executions. He spent the last decade of his reign completely detached from Rome, living in Capri.
Following Tiberius was Caligula, infamous for his moral depravity and insanity. According to Roman historians Suetonius and Cassius Dio, Tiberius would send his legions on pointless marches and turned his palace into a bordello of such repute that it inspired the 1979 porno film named for him.
Caligula was followed by Claudius, a stammering, slobbering, confused man as described by his contemporaries. Then there was Nero, who not only managed to burn down his city but was also the first emperor to debase the value of Rome's currency.
You know the rest of the story-- Romans watched their leadership and country get worse and worse.
All along the way, there were two types of people: the first group were folks that figured, "This has GOT to be the bottom, it can only get better from here." Their patriotism was rewarded with reduced civil liberties, higher taxes, insane despots, and a polluted currency.
The other group consisted of people who looked at the warning signs and thought, "I have to get out of here." They followed their instincts and moved on to other places where they could build their lives, survive, and prosper.
I'm raising this point because I'd like to open a debate. Some consider the latter idea of expatriating to be akin to 'running away.' I recall a rather impassioned comment from a reader last week who suggested that "leaving, i.e. running away, is certainly not the proper response."
I find this logic to be flawed.
While the notion of staying and 'fighting' is a noble idea, bear in mind that there is no real enemy or force to fight. The government is a faceless bureaucracy that's impossible attack. People who try only discredit their argument because they become marginalized as fringe lunatics.
Remember John Stack? He's the guy who flew his airplane into the IRS building in Austin, Texas earlier this year because he had a serious philosophical disagreement over tax issues.
While his ideas may have had intellectual merit, they were immediately dismissed due to his murderous tactics. Violence is rarely the answer, and it often has the opposite effect as intended, frequently serving to bolster support for the government instead of raising awareness of its shortcomings.
Unless/until government paramilitaries start duking it out with citizen militia groups in the streets, this is an ideological battle... and it's an uphill battle at best.
Government controlled educational systems institutionalize us from childhood that governments are just, and that we should all subordinate ourselves to authority and to the greater good that they dictate in their sole discretion.
You're dealing with a mob mentality, plain and simple. Do you want to waste limited resources (time, money, energy) trying to convince your neighbor that s/he should no not expect free money from the government?
You could spend a lifetime trying to change ideology and not make a dent; people have to choose for themselves to wake up, it cannot be forced upon them. And until that happens, they're going to keep asking for more security and more control because it's the way their values have been programmed.
When you think about it, what we call a 'country' is nothing more than a large concentration of people who share common values. Over time, those values adjust and evolve. Today, cultures in many countries value things like fake security, subordination, and ignorance over freedom, independence, and awareness.
When it appears more and more each day that those common values diverge from your own, all that's left of a country are irrelevant, invisible lines on a map. I don't find these worth fighting for.
Nobody is born with a mandatory obligation to invisible lines on a map. Our fundamental obligation is to ourselves, our families, and the people that we choose to let into our circles... not to a piece of dirt that's controlled by mob-installed bureaucrats.
Moving away, i.e. making a calculated decision to seek greener pastures elsewhere, is not the same as 'running away'... and I would argue that if you really want to affect change in your home country, moving away is the most effective course of action.
The government beast in your home country feeds on debt and taxes, and the best way to win is for bright, productive people to move away with their ideas, labor, and assets. This effectively starves the beast and accelerates its collapse. Then, when the smoke clears, you can move back and help rebuild a free society.
I'd really like to know what you think-- which is the right thing to do, stay or leave? What are you planning to do?
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Also look at what Simon black says he is on his website "he has personally acquired multiple passports, opened foreign bank accounts, operated foreign businesses, purchased foreign real estate, held gold and silver overseas,"
wow, foreign bank accounts, mulitple passports, and operating foreign business, this sounds like your Average Joe!
obviously i am just being sarcastic, but reading that just makes me more pissed of on how all these rich a holes say how easy it is to move but when your a poor mofo like me no country will take you in. just look at how much a consulation with this guy costs $2,500. i make 12k a year.
ill be intersted when a regular guy posts something about how to expatriate, not from some millionare hedge fund manager.
+111
I left the US in the 90's, not for any of the reasons listed here but for the experience of living abroad. One thing lead to another (started a family, etc) and I've stayed abroad. If I still lived in the US I don't think I would leave now for the reasons in the article.
However, and I read this a couple of years ago so it may be out of date, if you do leave and are a relatively high earner or high net worth individual you cannot give up your US citizenship. Sure you can mail your passport back but legally you will still be liable for US tax on worldwide income. If anyone knows it's different now please let me know but it should be part of the "leaving or not" equation for people to consider.
From what I understand... in 2004 a law was ordered that confiscates 50% of your net worth if you give up your citizenship and are worth over 2 million. It is "ASSUMED" that you are leaving for tax reasons if you are worth 2 million. They noticed that high net worth productive people were leaving and have started the effort to confiscate their money. However, you can still leave, have dual citizenship and pay local taxes in the new primary country. This is what I recall, I'd love to hear from a professional concerning this matter. This is just another reason we really need to pass the FAIRTAX!!!!
I think my original info was dated and that you are correct. In the past it was possible to incur a tax liability for up to 10 years after giving up citizenship if you met some physical presence test but it's different now, they take it all up front. Thanks for correcting me. It's all here in excruciating detail.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html#_Expatriation_after_June_3, 2004
You can check out any time you like but you may never leave!
According to the IRS link in Yorick's post, it's worse than that. The threshhold is only $145K in income!!! They then impose a "mark to market" rule--unfuckingbelievable--on all of your assets, deem them sold, and tax you on the proceeds.
IRC 877A imposes a mark-to-market regime, which generally means that all property of a covered expatriate is deemed sold for its fair market value on the day before the expatriation date. IRC 887A further provides that any gain arising from the deemed sale is taken into account for the taxable year of the deemed sale notwithstanding any other provisions of the Code.
The Vampire Squid doesn't let go easily. Please let me know if you find a "way out" of its clutches.
It's alluded to in point E here: http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
zerohedge had an article several months ago about acquiring second passports and dropping your US citizenship. The easiest passport to get now is from Dominica and will cost you about $110,000 US after that you can drop your US citizenship. Bob Bauman of the Sovereign Society has written a book on it too. It is called the Passport Book and I have the 7th edition. They have lawyers to handle it all too.
The latest from the Sovereign Society.
http://sn106w.snt106.mail.live.com/default.aspx?wa=wsignin1.0
Yes, you can. Bobby Fischer was a recent example. See my post EXPATRIATION GUIDE in this thread for the details. According to your own consitution they cannot stop you from expatriating if you do it properly. Of course, if you return to the us later or one of its puppet states you face the risk of coming under trial in its fake judicial system, but if you go so far as to forcibly expatriate then its not likely you will go back.
I tried to make a difference and stood up to the FEDs in an area that I was absolutely sure that I was supported by the Constitution; it didn't matter! DON'T ever try to stand up to these guys, it's like they learned everything they know from the MOB. You will be dirt and I don't care how much money or how smart you are... it won't matter. THEREFORE, from one that has been there, I totally support your concept of leaving the country. I'm in the process of creating a new biz to that exact end and it is past time to leave.
i met an american once who was an army intelligence officer but got kicked out for refusing to do something they told him to do but he would not say what. I remember as we were saying goodbye after a few glasses of wine he said to me, all governments are mafia. all of them. The mafia is the government. At the time I did not understand what he meant and thought he was a little bit whacked. This was 20 years ago. As I have gotten older I have begun to understand exactly what he meant but not why he chose to tell me. but it is true; there is no country in the world that does not have a mafia for its government, no matter what you want to believe. the only thing you can do when choosing where to live is (a) find a place you like and (b) where the government is least likely to take an interest in you and your property. But if and when you find that place there is still the risk things will change in the future. It is only when you become inflexible that you face loss.
No reader of this excellent thread will care for what is about to be pointed out. You have all sat quietly like little children and allowed your facist, infinitely corrupt excuse for a government to run around the world endlessly assassinating anyone you fancy with the biggest bloated "military" on the planet (Does murdering 1 million innocent Iraqi women & children sound familiar?) And now you fancy amerikkanizing Afghanistan and who knows who comes after that. It might be recalled that Afghanistan has seen off all would be "conquerors" for four thousand six hundred odd years...
Amerikans are world famous for bitching endlessly that things "here" are not just like they were in Peoria or wherever... WTF did you expect? Isn't that the reason you left?
Few of you seem willing to comprehend (perhaps because it would require thinking) that you were not "attacked" by Muslims on 9-11. Au contraire: You were attacked by your "minders".
If you want to leave, leave. It is basically a simple procedure. But first. Travel a lot. You WILL find places you like. If you don't, You should definitely stay behind. You will love what's coming.
+ 1 mil
+ 1 mil
No it wasn't Muslims that attacked us it was the Jews! And did you know that Michael Jackson was really an alien from Uranus?
http://www.nobeliefs.com/comments8.htm
Name me one 9-11 conspiracy theory that hasn't be debunked?
An organization of like minded radicals conspired to attack the twin towers and other buildings with airliners.
Funny thing about conspiracy theories, they don't all involve big government, evil corporations, or evil alien overlords. Any group of people can conspire to do any number of things. Without conclusive evidence of the nature and extent of the conspiracy, what you are left with is a conspiracy theory.
Sure, some theories are more likely than others (that 9/11 was perpetrated by a group of angry young men who were prepared to die for their beliefs rather than CIA suicide agents using planes to attack their own countrymen, for example). That only means that we need to examine the merits of these theories, and the evidence supporting and invalidating them before writing them off as "conspiracy theories". Sometimes the theories are right.
I believe he was implying that 9-11 was by our "handlers" refering to the government, I have seen no theory with worthy merits validating such, thus my response and posting of link.
I agree the merits of any theory must be examined but some people want so badly to believe something they become blinded to the facts.
Dont bother, they will junk but not answer any substantial questions.. I love the one about the towers falling faster than one gee... I must have missed the rockets on top accelerating it past one gee..
Hey Fat Ass with a wee Willy, we missed ya.. Americans suck, yup we remember thanks for stopping by..
my way: Germany -> Brazil, sure I'd leave the US as well if I were there
There's no reason to move if you're in the top one percent: the US is a paradise for the wealthy. As income goes down, though, incentives increase. It peaks with the working poor, whose lack of a social safety net goes to subsidize the wealthy.
I split in 2005 for Switzerland, which is far better for families than the US. The weather's shitty and it's expensive, but first graders can walk to school without getting shot at, and drivers don't give you the finger at the drop of the hat: it's more civlized. People tend to argue logically, as opposed to Americans, who immediately start shouting about God and Country when their assumptions are questioned.
I wouldn't mind going back to the States after all the dust has settled, the dollar has deflated, and real estate is a bargain. I sure wouldn't do it on a full-time basis, though: banana republics are inherently unstable. Good to keep a foothold here in the developed world.
I am absolutely sure your analogy is upside down! A single, non working mom with two children on government assistance lives a $40,000 +++ per year life style. It's obvious you have been out of the country. Cash cards loaded with Government assistance cash have been spent from Vegas casinos to cruise ships to 4 and 5 star resports. Wake up! If you can afford to live in Switzerland, your not coming back here, that's for sure!
Americans who immediately revert to "God and Country" when engaging in debate.. Hmm, perhaps you should have moved out of the NASCAR parking lot you were camped inside of. I love paper cutouts like this representing three hundred million people.
The developed world, ha, we will see how developed it feels when you have to blow the tunnels as the hungry start streaming in for the chocolate and watches.
I had an argument with a frenchman with a funny hat but all he would do is shout vive la France and pelt me with pate'...
I lived for 10 years in Zurich. Switzerland has it's perks, for example taxes are now lower in Zurich than California. But if you live there long enough, you will recognize it is kind of a police state, at least the German speaking part of the country.
After living there for 5 years I seriously considered applying for citizenship. After 10 years I thought "Let's get outta here!"
To find out more about the Imminent Collapse of American Capitalism, watch this video " WIKILEAKS, QE GAZILLION, OBAMA'S FAT LIP, AMERICA DEAD !! at (http://youtu.be/N0fRlwL2pnQ).
by Anonymous
Most likely this is so they can justify censoring the internet.
Your right about the banks, they should have? failed, now they are taking over everything with our money.
Anyway, America has had at least 3 major depressions.
Dude, seriously. You post this on every single fucking thread.
Enough.
I choose internal exile. My screen name is not where I hang my hat. I'm on a paid in full 240 acre farm in the Midwest. The storms can blow all around and I'll hoe my rows this spring. We can pretty much feed ourselves.
I would suggest you plant grains and beets (for sugar), and use aquaculture for your fruit, veg, and fish.
That is my plan, should relations with farmer friends break down for whatever reason.
"...and use aquaculture for your fruit, veg, and fish."
Now that's what I call mental masturbation.
Good luck with aquaponics.
I'm sticking it out here with family and friends but leaving the door cracked. My significant other's eyes are slanted enough that I'm getting more and more worried the crazy crackers will start rounding up anyone who isn't 100% caucasoid virus. I'm equally worried they'll start rounding up people with glasses and books Khmer Rouge style. I grew up in rural Midwest and when I visit home, I don't see a lot of friendly, down-home, love-thy-neighbor country values... I just see a lot of broken psyches and dark shadows.
I'm learning a useful preindustrial trade and trying to create a local supply network. Seems a near-impossible task, but it gives me a sense of purpose. The rest of my time goes into building social capital in a small city, fwiw.
I don't really care that much about the American "standard of living"... if youth is wasted on the young, certainly energy is wasted on Americans. Same goes for 'freedom' and 'liberty', which in real terms I think humans chucked about 10,000 years ago by embracing agriculture and scarcity as a social model. Our species had a decent run for 200,000 years before the concept of personal property, and maybe we'll even get another shot at hunting and gathering nutria, cockroaches, and blackberries.
A friend left El Salvador in the 80's after we destroyed that country... but will the USA be the better choice in the long run? Guess we'll find out together.
At any rate, I don't think staying on this continent is necessarily a commitment to staying in the USA... seems like the USA is going away regardless. USA is definitely not worth fighting for. My city, maybe I'd fight for that. Probably not. Hopefully whatever comes next won't be Violence 24/7. Everyone on Earth will face overshoot, everywhere will get very local, few of the laws on the books will matter... seems to me like luck of the draw who prospers and who suffers. Good luck everybody....
Hello! I love Zero Hedge and read it several times daily! I seldom post, but found this intriguing. I'm a widow and I left the US four months ago with my two children. I wanted to escape the insanity that will result from people with no self-sufficiency skills fighting for the last bag of Cheetos on the grocery store shelf when the &#*$%^ really hits the fan, which looks like asap! I've been looking for the best place to live. I've started out with Buenos Aires, since they already lived through a crash and live in crisis all the time, as they say. I've taken knitting and cooking classes and learned how they survive with artisan skills. They also have a great local delicious food source, and Latin America is booming. They are experiencing a renaissance, even though Kirchner died recently. Anyway, definitely felt that America is not worth fighting for. The disgusting pictures of them trampling each other on Black Friday shopping away while Ireland marched against banksters made me realize that Americans NEEED to experience a collapse and hardship to wake the hell up. My best wishes to them all.
Very insightful and accurate post. Again, some morons flagged it as junk.
Also, I believe in full disclosure and the TRUTH. Something that happened a few year ago when they dug up the ancient coffin of MAAT in EGYPT several years ago>>> AFTER THE KALI YUG COMES THE SATYA ( truth those illiterate in sanskrit) YUG!) I defaulted on all of my debt, in civil disobedience, but mostly because it was incurred from an ex-husband who declared bankruptcy on me. I also defaulted on underwater mortgages, thanks to zerohedge info against banksters. Whom I, in all seriousness, believe, seriously defrauded me and millions. I have to say, I feel more free here in Argentina for many reasons. I recently had to renew my passport by going over to Uruguay. (MUY FACILE) There was nobody to grope me; it all was so FREE and EASY TO TRAVEL. Like it should be. Here in Argentina, I have the freedom to marry a woman, (if I wanted to) smoke dope in my living room (if I wanted to) and so much more. There are serious drawbacks, but, I can't help but feel I feel so much more free abroad, especially in the INTELLECT!!!. Buenos Aires is bursting with Passion and INTELLIGENCE AND ART!. People are alive here. Americans are Zombies, like their preferred Halloween costume and their attitude toward shopping of Chinese shit, Chinese who deal with N. Korea who deal with Iran...what the ^*#($&#(*.?????. Seriously, the psyche speaks volumes. Archetypes are coming up. America is the land of the living dead. I prefer to live among REVOLUCINARIOS con corazon!!!!! I prefer to take my chances elsewhere, muchisimas gracias! Because my father is a child survivor of a Japanese concentration camp on Java during World War II and THAT HE TAUGHT ME WELL, I BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF GOLD!!!! I am also educating el pueblo DE ARGENTINA on the advantages of owning EL ORO Y LA PLATA!!!!
Congratulations on living your way.
Traveling outside of the US taught me about freedom too. I found I had freedom of the psyche that I didn't have in the US. The US I had political freedom but that just meant I could vote for a bought and paid for democrat or a bought and paid for republican or vote for a third party candidate that could never win.
How about wholesale slaughter of the bastards that infest government, the media and Wall Street. Then a nuke or two on Israel for good measure?!? That will go a LONG way to correcting the problems!
Euclid had it right:
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.
Love the idea. Can't understand why your post was flagged as junk. It would cure it all.
Yes, of course. Lets see. Canada ... whoops, government runs education, medical care, social insuirance. Nope. Australia, ditto Canada. Mexico ... orly? Coasta Rica? mebbe. Europe, the UK, Eastern Europe? South Africa? Russia?
Okay, here's the answer - buy your own island!
I turned 60 on Nov 22. I have been hit hard by the depression. (The company I worked for for 25 years went bankrupt - Nortel) and my house is underwater after investing $100k of my cash in Dec 2008. My 401 took a major hit as well.
I am looking into Greece. I will make a trip late spring for exactly the reasons Simon Black cites.
Honestly, I would rather participate in riots to overthrow the government and die in that effort rather than to sit here in the US waiting for the shoe to drop. Also I am sick of americans and subscribe to Bill Maher's philosophy that americans are lazy, stupid and greedy.
Good luck.
Lots of islands in Greece. I wonder if one could be left alone there?
Leave quickly please. You know no Americans if you think that tool Bill Maher has a brain, get out now..
What happened to Bill Maher? He is a tool.
My son lives in Greece and he loves it. Good luck to you.
as one who upped and fucked off after 30 years of adult life in the Untied Kingdom this strikes a chord.
disclosure: long sunshine and beaches.
The
You don't have to go anywhere. You don't have to do anything. Collapse is already happening; just wait. Of course you might not like the new boss any better but it will be a new boss.
Whomever wrote this article apparently does not understand how the US tax system works. US citizens that expatriate are still subject to US taxation even if they live elsewhere. This ranks up there with the *news flash* that some of the big broker/dealers were organized as LLCs so they did not pay any US tax - another profoundly mistaken attempt at playing tax expert.
I've live in Mexico for a few months at a time. The area where my wife is from has a large European and Canadian expat population, but mostly seasonal workers and potheads... if you have money, you can do almost anything you want in Mexico (I will not respond to the one asshat that will argue that point - its TRUE). I have not been there since kidnapping became big biz. MY father-in-law used to leave the house with a bodyguard. Even though I have a place near the beach, I am not sure I would choose Mexico, but it is nice I can head to TJ and catch a flight and be there is a few hours.
One thing - the "manana attitude" is really nice - after awhile, I only read the Herald Tribune about once a week...
One other thing about Mex - consider renting rather than owning. If someone is connected in So. Mexico and they want your property - you are screwed. One guy lost his lucrative disco when they "found" pot is his luggage at the airport... he was given 2 choices - go to jail and carve black coral jewelry to eat, or beat it to the States and never come back.
whatever happened to 'we the people'?
If you leave you'd have as much credibility upon your glorious return as those puppets they tried to install in Iraq- most of whom are dead. You want change, you need to put in work.
Running and hiding because your not getting your way is cowardice. What about the rest of the population who doesn't have that luxury? The best form of protest is taking it to the streets, organising with family and those in your surround area.
Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty.
George S. Patton
Duty bitchez !!!!
+1 I can run, I will not run.
I will stay and become involved and change it or die trying. Why don't you whiners start working toward change better yet why dont you describe what actions you have taken other than dragging your sorry butt to a polling place every few years and then whining at the result..
This article inspires one question and one observation...
The Question: Where are you going to go? The world is not exactly swimming in libertarian-free market democracies. Hong Kong... maybe before 1997. Singapore... to authoritarian. Africa... nope. Latin America... really? No. Europe... ha! When liberals bemoaned the ascendancy of Bush the Younger, they could at least say they could flee to France and be serious. (Though, tellingly, I know of none that did) If you have the cash, there are places in the Caribbean or Oceania, but even that is fraught with danger - Fiji Water just got shut down by Fiji's dictator. Fiji!
The Observation: Dysfunctional systems can exist far longer than people realize. The article points to the dysfunction of the Roman Empire, yet it endured for four centuries in that form past the period the author mentions. How absurd were equity valuations at the end of 1998, only to soar for another year? How absurd were home prices in 2005, again, only to soar for another 18 months? How ridiculous was the market in 2007, when the seeds of the coming credit crisis were obvious to anyone who opened their eyes? My point is that the absurd economic state we find ourselves in can last for longer than we may realize, if you are expecting the market to gap down 2000 points tomorrow, just because all the conditions exist, you are apt to be disappointed.
1st small step for me was busting out of Chicago with all cash and no debt. I am one of the lucky ones. Az might be a final destination before I get an international one way airline ticket to somewhere
Help! I'm still stuck in the Windy City. Really starting to hate this place after being here for 8 years. Government is corrupt as hell, roads busted, taxes high, schools a mess, can't walk outside without getting mugged. This place sucks.
Oh fuck, I ALMOST forgot about those Fucked up roads. Good luck and get the he'll out of there
As long as we do not give up our arms, I will be staying. The current global environment is ripe for ubiquitous totalitarianism that will creep into most every niche on the globe. I don't believe this will be a localized problem that one can geographically escape from indefinitely. Especially vulnerable will be unarmed societies..
Eventually, history will rhyme and require Revoltuion 2.0 because, contrary to popular opinion, there is much worth fighting, and perhaps dying, for.
Simon:
I understand your reasoning, however it is difficult to calculate precisely when the gig is up and at the same time, being vested in patriotism is not easily quantifiable or amortized as so adeptly stated by Mel Gibson's character in The Patriot at better times in his career. Can you afford to be loyal?
Rather than expatriate, we propose a more sophisticated solution of "nul-patriate." Essentially utilizing the power within nullification, at the state level (as per Thomas E. Woods, Jr. book) and at the individual level through the jury process of not only judging the merits of a case, but judging the law as applied in that case. Jury nullification is the last stand of democracy and between choosing not to participate in whatever manner with tyrannical governments.
Whether your action is working with your neighbors to lower utility costs, cutting your cable connection, moving your money from the big banks as suggested by Eugene Jarecki (moveyourmoney.info) or turning in your library card as a statement against bloated government, the possibilities are endless. Just buying a bag of asphalt patch at Home Depot and patching a hole in the street is an act against government.
I don't doubt that the next generation who is on the rise will consider other venues for their business and personal interests (be that Malaysia, Panama or post-Castro Cuba). Although we're closely following the plot as described by deTocqueville in Democracy In America, it's tough to argue with the model of our Republic as the best attempt so far at a free society that recognizes individual liberty and rewards innovation and determination equally. I agree that we have drifted from that ideal and the current attempts at deconstructing the Constitution. My response to them is simply; "In the beginning was the Word." The word still stands and that word in two words is free will.
Move out if you like. If it wasn't for folks who had moved out of Ireland in the past, we would have never built the likes of New York City. It took a courageous lot to pull that off. Moving out is not really the question. More important than the question of are you free to move out is at what point might one no longer be free to make that decision. In that respect, it simply becomes a question of being willing to die for one's country.
As the sovereign debt of nations devolves into the commercial debt of international banks, I guess there comes a tipping point when one is no longer a martyr and instead is a mercenary casualty for the corporate cause. Where is that tipping point? Which way is the see-saw of democracy tilting and how much force should be exerted to tilt the future in a new direction?
Here's a blog post with resources on the powerful action that can be found through in-action more along the lines of Ghandi or Martin Luther King, Jr. than the kids who smashed the front of the government offices in London last week.
http://tradewithdave.com/?p=1259
Dave Harrison
www.tradewithdave.com
From a self analysis point of view: It seems tempting to leave, like a fantasy. However, my family is here and I love them. We find happiness in each other. It was great having the adult children home with their respective mates for a fire in the pit out back after a Thanksgiving feast.
That being said;
I hate what is happening, but I would not be happy leaving on my own. I continue to change the way I do things as my conscousness of what is real and not real evolves. I'll just have to fight the system the best way I can, while I take care of me and my own. I haven't ruled out leaving, but the time is not now.
Changes I made:
Yanked my money out of typical bank and joined the local credit union.
Got a license to carry.
Bought gold and silver.
Will be making a large garden come spring.
Pay with cash, and like to get paid with cash
Don't watch much TV except some sports, nature shows and documentaries
Fix things myself
Go to the woods and ocean at least twice a week.
Got a license to carry
So you're on a government database
haha! Exactly what I was thinking....After I found out what they wanted from me including finger prints and 10 yr background check credit check a list of everyplace I ever lived including overseas.... forget it I'll just carry if I feel the need to.
We are all on a database! Every gun purchase you ever made was private?
In my state you don't need a licence or background check to buy a shotgun or rifle, just a handgun, but you can find a handgun very easily without a license as well. In order to carry concealed you need to take a class and register yourself with the county sherriff. No thank you.
Yeah, take your gold and your ammo and get the fuck outta here. Nice plan.
Well, if you do not have significant savings and a guaranteed income and you do not speak the local language, it sounds quite wishful thinking. Instead, I remember an article I read years ago about a sort of anarchist relocation project in the US: they choosen some tiny town populated just by a few souls and decided to go to live there to become *the majority* and rule it (ok, it sounds contradictory for anarchists, but reality is contradictory). Well, according the author of that article (a project organizer), it was a mess at the start (quite literally as "herding cats"), but then, move by move, a signicant amount of ppl already moved in and the thing started to work. Unfortunately I lost the article but it seems a good idea considering how many opportunities you have to "expat" within your country. You have even many abandoned towns that you could go to repopulate: http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&gbv=2&biw=1280&bih=905&q=%2Babandoned+towns&btnG=Cerca&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osho_%28Bhagwan_Shree_Rajneesh%29
Anarchist Relocation Project.... I think that was in New OIrleans a few years back.
As the moniker suggests. I left and will never go back.
Costa Rica for me is the best place in the world. Free, very few government pricks on your ass and great weather. Not for everyone but works for me. Good luck up there in the old USA.
Only problem I have is that it is damn difficult to buy much physical gold or silver. But we are working on it.
This is the best post I've seen here in months. You are completely correct, the answer is to leave. Unfortunatly, most who would wish to simply do not have the resources to do so. This is why I decided to leave this country a few years ago, without actually, physically leaving (yes, it is possible, as I'm sure many who frequent this site have figured out to some degree).
I am not bound by some "social contract" that someone else came up with before my time, and that I certainly never signed.
Our fundamental obligation is to ourselves, our families, and the people that we choose to let into our circles... not to a piece of dirt that's controlled by mob-installed bureaucrats.
This is all that needs to be said.
Executor letter?
With internet communication now worldwide it seems like the world is getting smaller and smaller.
Situations get solved when.
1. People are aware and understand there are problems.
2. Solutions are sought.
3. Things get bad enough that people give time and effort to solve the problems.
I think that train will come and I want to be on it.
you all that are leaving will write wont you?
some people change their ways when they see the light
others change when they feel the heat
When the Hyperinflationary Collapse happens, to understand what America will look like it is important to visit recent collapses of European Governments, such as the USSR.
One thing is for sure: Living standards will collapse.
Who will reign? My guess is the Christian Fundamentalists will run the new show. They seem to be the largest and most organized group around.
If Western Europe could survive Hitler then I think these countries could survive International Banking Collapse. That would be an obvious place: France, Switzerland, etc.
Good luck with your choices.
"Who will reign? My guess is the Christian Fundamentalists will run the new show."
Sunday law will bring 'peace'.
Watch out.
Let me tell you, I love my country. I would fight for it, but truly, only a shock to the system will revive the dead that America is. Bad things have to happen to it to revive it, sad to say. But remember, the cosmos periodically has to DIE and RENEW itself, so go WILLINGLY, it will REBIRTH YOU! It's time! And it's a great day to die! For honor! Shakespeare, Julius Ceasar, Cowards die a thousand deaths but heroes only one!
Stick with your knitting in S. America Greta.. I am pretty sure we can get along without you.. Oh and good luck escaping the cosmos when it goes through its phoenix rebirth perhaps it will be your one time..
Most of us love this country. It was once a beacon of brave assertion and celebration of the rights of the individual and the role of the state as a servant to the people. The people of it often still embody remarkable degrees of generosity and kindness. But the bloated government is a devouring beast that seems intent on swallowing all. The time of celebrating individuals is long past, and the current trends towards the decay of late stage democracy (mob rule) seem unstoppable. The mob persist on being ignorant; cyclically and mindlessly voting for red, or blue. At this point, loving this country is much akin to loving a relative who has a serious drug addiction problem.
Praying for a life event that serves as an intervention is perfectly understandable. As is removing yourself as a source for further funds used to support their bad habit.
Garbo, I'm not sure I can approve of your choice to default on your debts. I was raised differently, and feel that most of my debt arrangements were entered into with open eyes on my part. That said, I haven't been in your shoes; if your karma works out clean, then I'm missing something and will keep trying to grow and learn. I can certainly understand that sometimes it comes down to: "America, Love it?, then the best thing you can do to help is to Leave it."
Your writing is eloquent and in places moving. However, I must disagree that we are close to the point that leaving is the best avenue of positive change. I believe this addict can be turned. I am under no illusion that it will be easy or that this addicts figurative bottom is near, in fact we have much, much worse to endure prior to that turning point. But, I believe in that turning point and will work to help my country endure it and grow past the current system.
I wish you and all who try the best. I would, however, like to point out that this country was founded by people fleeing what they viewed as a tyrannical system of government; they had little or no ability to change the system from within. Our founding fathers were the *original* expatriates, at least as far as the US is concerned.
Wow bro, you are sadly delusional! Not that there is anywhere to hide though.....
I'm trying to stay hidden in the tall-grass, my dad's advice. If I was single and young again I'd catch a boat to Australia. My wife won't have any of that, so I'm digging in and planning to tough it out, life without her wouldn't be worth living.
We're outta here in T minus 4.5 months and counting.
Obviously we'll need to drive to Canada or Mexico (or somewhere) and fly from there (or take a boat, or a charter of some kind), because no way, no how will we allow TSA to irradiate us or molest us.
Unfortunately, most people are incredibly weak minded, and would never consider moving away from "their country". To leave a place controlled by a vicious predator class is wise. Now, if we lived in a country with some modest percentage of folks like those who fought the revolutionary war, we'd stay and help them. But everyone keeps looking for "peaceful" ways to convince the predators to back down. Yeah, right... as if that's how predators work. Give me a break!
So yes, the smartest way is to leave for freer pastures. Those who cannot bring themselves to do this should convert all their paper assets (of all forms) into real, physical gold and silver and/or productive equipment that you operate to produce goods and/or equipment and supplies that allow you to be as self-sufficient [as possible].
Don't pay your underwater mortgage if you have one. Live for "free" until they force you to move, and save for your future. Don't pay taxes you can avoid... and if they eventually notice and come after you, that's when to vanish (perhaps first replying "sorry, we are broke, we have nothing to pay with"). And whatever you do, immediately remove all assets from all retirement accounts! They will be stolen in short order (forcably invested in worthless government bonds).
But yes, the best plan is to get the hell out while the getting is good. Expect americans to be turned away when the problems get worse, and more folks throw up their hands and vanish. Better to leave ASAP. We are.
PS: We have experience in [high-tech] self-sufficient systems, and intend to set ourselves up as self-sufficient [as possible]. Some of these systems are much more efficient when scaled up [to serve more people]. I am always amazed that small groups of like minded people do not combine forces to [more easily] develop a viable self-sufficient community (not commune). If anyone is serious, and I do mean serious (we are doing this, regardless of anyone else), perhaps we can form a side group, discuss the options, and perhaps combine resources.
One interesting option is to buy and rig/modify a ship, many of which are already more-or-less self-sufficient already. Then we can be inherently mobile, live where the weather is great year round, and quite possibly live outside any established jurisdiction. Such a setup could [partially] pay for itself by providing "tours" and/or "liberty services" for people who want or need it (get people out of the USSA without TSA abuse, passport stamps or records... and lawfully so). We've looked into this option quite a bit, and this seems quite viable for a group of just a few people with at least $600,000 (double our resources).
your leaving in 4.5 months and your still not sure of how your leaving? Not very thoughtful in your planning. good luck! Let us know how it is where you are going.
You mean I need to book flights 5 months in advance? I don't think so. I never have before. And I don't want to get "trapped" at the last minute. What I mean is, I don't want to buy tickets too far ahead, then find out the USSA forced Canada to implement TSA-style procedures there too. Then I wasted all my ticket money, because I will not tolerate such abuse.
One reason for not being exactly certain where I'm going is, I may get a contract to man an optical observatory on a very remote ~20-acre island roughly in the middle of the pacific ocean for 1 to 2 years. That's an ideal "start" that gets me outta here, pays me a nice chunk of change for 1~2 years, and lets us be sole occupants of a very remote island. I did something similar for 9 years previously, except at a mountaintop observatory, so I know I love being totally alone for long periods of time (many months+).
In parallel, I'm making plans as if that opportunity doesn't exist, because it might not materialize. I have 4 general locations in mind, and 2 specific locations. The general locations include NZ, Chile, Ecuador, any of dozens of tiny (1~200 acre) empty islands in the pacific, plus the ship idea. I have been looking at specific ships for sale for months now, but probably gonna need one or two more partners/couples to swing the $600K+ expense. We visited these locations about 1 year ago, and have 2 very viable specific locations chosen, either of which is fine. And I know we can find lots more opportunities based upon our travel experiences 1 year ago.
One is on the north island of NZ, a 60 acre beach-front property with two coves and two beaches with flatish rocks extending a ways out into the ocean in some places. It has no utilities, but we prefer to install self-sufficiency systems of our own choosing anyway, so we are not depending on any government or corporate kleptocrats. This location would be a low cost long term lease from a Maori family (the native folks) who owned the property since ancient times. They are huge liberty and sovereignty advocates, and their land is not part of the western system --- huge pieces of NZ are still effectively part of the native nation... and more is going that way as time passes. No property taxes, no NZ government jurisdiction, direct access to ocean, and other advantages. If we also have a boat or ship or plane, we can come and go without passports, visas, etc. I have a pilot license (and no airplane), but the boat/ship idea is probably more practical. OTOH, I recently found two interesting ~4 seater planes that can land and take-off from either land or water.
Another place I refuse to reveal details about because someone might grab it before me is at ~7000 feet altitude above a large body of water, and only 2 miles horizontal distance from the water (as in, you need to look down at a 35-degree angle to see the shoreline). The environment and views are... beyond description. Price? Free for the taking, extreme boonies but accessible, and requires significant self-sufficiency infrastructure to be viable. But I've "been there, done that" before, and can do it again.
I prefer not to discuss further specifics in public.
Good Luck to you I mean that sincerely not sarcastically. I have a place in Ecuador but it is in the city and I like the countryside easier to be self sufficient. I don't trust Ecuador's government also their official currency is the U.S. Dollar so what happens there due to the dollars demise will be the same. Be careful and best regards!
Your place is in Quito? I am a fan of extreme boonies, so we'll definitely be out and away from any towns and cities. Our experiences traveling in South America one year ago was "marginal" in cities (Quito, Santiago, etc), but increasingly good the further away we got. We loved our time in the high Andes where native folks were just wonderful, fabulous. Then again, our personalities are nothing like the "arrogant westerner" that turns pretty much everyone off. I don't do well with humidity, so I suspect we wouldn't do well on the coast of Ecuador (but we never made it there, so who knows). On the other hand, the coastal areas of southern Peru and northern Chile are fantastic (for us).
I hope I'm not being naive, but I'm not much concerned with the governments in Ecuador or Chile (or even Peru, probably). Part of that is because governments tend to abuse their own citizens much more aggressively than "foreigners"... even if you stay for months or years at a time. They tend to think of foreigners as "tourists" == "$$$ income $$$". Also, we are unlikely to start a business in any of these places, though I might continue to take software/product development contracts which I do via internet anyway.
We already have no "dollars" (well, only a few thousand). Everything has been converted to gold. So the dollar can (and will) go to hell. That's good for us, not bad (but we are so sorry for the masses who trust the predator class).
How much time do you spend in Ecuador? Please mention anything we might not have learned during our relatively short visit (that will be relevant to living there).
Our place is on the coast, yes warm! but still nice. The climate in Quito is beautiful. The area I like most is Cuenca and the surronding small towns and villages around cuenca are nice as well as the climate. I've been there alot(2-3 months at a time) and I've also lived in Honduras for 2 yrs. I would love to share more details with you but not in an open forum. I know the people are nice and friendly but do be careful there are also many delinquents in any Latino country that think Americans or "white people" are all rich and easy targets.
How can we connect privately without providing email addresses in this public forum?
Lots of people talk about Vilcacamba for westerners, but I get the impression the prices there have been driven far above other areas for that precise reason (well, that and the PR the place got for being home of the longest-living humans on earth). Besides, that's too crowded for our tastes... but is perhaps just barely within what we would consider, population density wise, given some other important draw.
We lived 17 years in Maui, so we feel lost without an ocean visible through at least half the windows in our home. Where we lived, Wailea, is about the driest place in Hawaii, sheltered from humidity to a degree by 10,000 foot Haleakala volcano. Even that humidity was at the extreme edge of my tolerance, but the near constant mild breeze and perfect temperatures made it tolerable. So we are generally inclined to be near the ocean if possible, and want to be somewhere mild and warm all year... though the drier it is, the more temperature variation is tolerable. I totally freaking love the atacama coast, for example.
Yes, we understand the problem in SouthAmerica. It helps if you don't look rich (dress way down), which is just fine with me. The other half is willing. What we heard, and experienced, is that crime is 99.9% theft, with little violence. That's fine with us, we don't intend to have anything valuable lying around, or hanging from our necks, or a wallet full of ID and cash. If someone takes our purse or wallet, they'll find $10, and they're welcome to it (not that we encourage such behavior). So we don't make good targets.
In the extreme boonies of the high Andes, I'm not even sure whether any of them were actually "Latinos"... they all appeared to be "natives" (the original people who managed to get to the americas ~50,000 years ago). They were wonderful, and different from people in populated areas. Many of them had never had a penny in their entire lives, and perhaps for that reason they were not interested in stealing our purse or wallet. That is so impressive - to never have money and live happily and naturally. I'm a high-tech type, so I don't want to live long term without my technology... especially my self-sufficiency systems (wind/solar power, water purification (if necessary), etc). Of course, those sorts of goodies need to be in places where they cannot be accessed (stolen).
We had one very amazing experience in the high Andes that you might enjoy hearing. We hooked up with a nature photographer who was wandering the mountains and taking photos. He was a very tough, impressive guy, operating entirely by motorcycle. Well, his ride broke down, and we offered to haul him around in our 4WD for a week while he was waiting for a part to be sent so he could fix it. What a great week too; we went to some incredibly wild places, some of which make me think I'd expire from lack of oxygen (as in 18,000 feet).
Anyway, after our week hauling him around the [very] high country, we returned to the small settlement where we started, where we waited to make sure he could fix his bike (he did). Like us, he had made some good "friends" with the natives, and like us, he gave out a few tiny gifts (they always insisted on giving something they handmade in return). On the way out of town he gave a not very expensive "throw away" digital camera to one kid who had been especially helpful - who had shown him how to get to certain difficult locations.
We later learned the "rest of the story" from him by email a couple months later. The father of the boy he gave the digital camera to discovered the camera lying around the house while the boy was away for a few days with friends. He assumed the photographer must have accidentally left the camera. So he set out - on foot - to find the photographer. Two weeks later he managed to track down the photographer, about 200 miles away. I guess he must have just asked people about "the gringo photographer on the motorcycle". Or who knows how.
Of course, the photographer was aghast, thanked him, and told him the camera was a gift to his son. He offered to give him a ride back to his village, or give him some money, or some way to repay him. He would have no part of it. He would accept nothing, pretended it was "no big deal" to track him down to return the camera. He camped out the night with the photographer, then left on foot the next day to walk home. One interesting fact... he had never been further than 20 miles from home before, and here he was 200 miles away!
Talk about "opposite character" from the petty thieves that are so common in populated areas! I hope this story makes all gringos blush. How many of us would have gone to 1% as much effort to "do the right thing"?
Anyway, can we continue by email? How?
Honestann, that was truly one of the most beautiful and thought-provoking posts I have ever read, in ANY forum. Thank you for sharing that with us --- you have just added a warm and positive moment to my day.
Yeah. With neighbors like that... sheesh! No matter what, you cannot match them. To live near people like that is just amazing. However, I simply cringe to imagine some typical gringo with typical gringo attitudes and behaviors moving near those folks. That is painful just to imagine ("neighborhood" destroyed).
@pazmaker: I just set up a new/temporary email account that I can reveal here so we can communicate privately. It is my ZH username at ymail dot com. If others start sending crap and spamware, we can just switch to my regular email account and shut this new/temporary one down. I hope to hear from you and share ideas.
"huge pieces of NZ are still effectively part of the native nation... and more is going that way as time passes. No property taxes, no NZ government jurisdiction, direct access to ocean, and other advantages. If we also have a boat or ship or plane, we can come and go without passports, visas, etc"
Sorry champ, but that's just delusional. As an NZ citizen I can tell you that you certainly will be in the NZ Governments jurisdiction, there are property taxes, and you will need a fucking passport.
Yeah, well you go tell that to the Maoris, and see how long you live. Yes, you are a citizen of NZ. Many of the Maori aren't. You should learn more about what's happening on those islands you live upon. I mean the events purposely not reported by the predator-controlled mainstream media.
No, someone on real Maori land is not in NZ government jurisdiction. By "Maori land" I do not mean "just any old land owned by a Maori [family]". I mean certain specific areas.
Yes, of course NZ has property taxes... if you live in most places (especially if you're a gringo who simply accepts being a slave, and kissing the Queen's royal feet).
A passport is needed to "pass" through a "port"... not row to shore in an inflated raft (or similar). But I refuse to give you lessons on these issues, because you're obviously brainwashed to believe what the mainstream media misleads you to believe. I suppose you believe birds need a passport to fly over borders, right? Just like jackrabbits need passports to hop over borders. Yeah, I know, you believe humans are inherently slaves. All other animals have unfettered rights to travel anywhere on earth. But you don't. Enjoy being a slave.
Yes, as a practical matter, if you are walking down the street in Auckland and a cop asks you for ID, and you're stupid enough to show him some, you might encounter some problems. However, nobody is required to identify themself, regardless of what lies they tell you. So don't. But never mind, just enjoy your life in your comfortable little slave box. And leave me alone.
Oh, and incidentally, if you leave and return at least once every 6 months, you can stay forever as a tourist. This applies to many countries, in fact. So if you have your own boat, just sail 12 miles offshore (to international waters), then return. Bingo. And sigh.
Where to begin? You seem to believe that passports are only required if you arrive in a country through a "port" - I'm sure the NZ Customs department & the Navy would probably question that logic, as would the many asylum seekers who arrive in foreign countries via unregistered boats & find themselves in detention centres.
Then you seem to think that just by sailing 12 miles off-shore & back, you'd be allowed to stay for a further 6 months - well maybe potentially, but you would still have to have a tourist visa in your non-existent passport.
And as for the "certain specific areas" that you seem to think fall outside the jurisdiction of the NZ Government - perhaps you could name one, as although Maori have been granted ownership of traditional lands through the Treaty of Waitangi, they certainly do not operate these areas outside of the laws of the country.
Kia kaha bro..
Hey, the "authorities" AKA predators-that-be believe we need their permission to breathe. I certainly agree with you about that. However, most folks have no freaking idea how many of these scams are part of UCC ("uniform commercial code"), or "color of law", or some other fallacy. Note the "commercial" in UCC. A human being is not a corporation, commercial enterprise or "fictitious entity" of any kind. However, the predators-that-be have tricked most people into accidentally creating a commercial entity with their name in all capital letters, then naively accepting "joinder" with that fiction. Just look at your various forms of ID. Most of them have your name in all capital letters. That is NOT you. That is the name of the fraudulant corporation they control you with. But, if you understand this, and stand your ground, and absolutely, positively, consistently refuse to take responsibility for (establish "joinder" with) that fictitious entity... you are NOT subject to ANY of the millions of pages of UCC, which is not law, but "acts, statutes, regulations, etc" that only apply to fictitious entities. This is a much too huge topic to cover here, but you can find out for yourself if you wish.
The trick is, do not show any ID. Most important, do not show a passport, or even imply you have one, or imply you do not "belong" there. Nobody is lawfully required to show ID. But yes, cops will say otherwise, but they lie endlessly, and if you are stupid enough to do what they say, you are dog meat. So, if you thought I would do things brazenly without doing my homework, you would be correct to assume I'll get myself in trouble. But that's not me.
Don't get me started on "legitimate government". To be sure, the current western "government" of NZ is 100% not legitimate. To assume it is, is similar to buying the Brooklyn Bridge from some random jerk, then insisting you are the legitimate owner. When the criminals of the crown gave some candy (or whatever) to some random moron in NZ to "purchase" the country (in pieces), those were not legitimate in any honest, ethical or rational way. But yeah, they have the money and the guns, because they are the predators-that-be, who gain control over country after country via their printing their fiat currency and buying equipment and thugs to terrorize the population into pseudo-submission. They are predators and thugs. That's all. Their so-called "laws" are null and void in any honest sense. But sure, that doesn't help you if the thugs come after you. The appropriate way to deal with that is... know what you're doing, know what difficult situations might arise, and plan in advance how to deal with them.
You can do a lot of renting for 300,000 USD. I have read for years from expats that one should rent somewhere before deciding to buy. Also regarding the ship, I read someone say if it flies, floats or fucks, rent it.
Well, okay, I'll look into renting. I admit I haven't (with regard to the vessel), because I'm interested in something we can live [and travel] in for at least 3~5 years before finding something else. But renting property for 6 months to make sure you like living in a new country... is very wise - almost common sense.
The land in NZ that I talked about (in some message somewhere) would be a 7 year lease with 7 year renewal option... and pretty cheap ($2500 per year). That's okay with me, because we would spend $100,000 or so for self-sufficiency systems, but 90% of those can be removed and taken elsewhere (to our next digs). Originally we wanted to buy some land somewhere (NZ), and we still may in SouthAmerica because it is so cheap where we want to go (the extreme, extreme boonies). In fact, the very best places we have found we can literally claim for free... much like America 100+ years ago.
If we build a fixed structure (not a vessel), it will be modular and capable of disassembly and transport. Therefore, I'm not even much worried about being "trapped".
That's a funny rule of thumb... especially when they don't even mention price! Hahahahaha. In our case, I mostly "design and build" things, but not ships or airplanes, unfortunately.
Floating away is really a fascinating idea. I suggest you give us more details or a sketch of business plan. You might probably find associates here.
I don't have a specific business plan, because the details can be very different depending upon which ship we buy and develop. All the prices I quote below are for used vessels I've seen for sale.
One option is a buy something like a 60 to 100+ foot long open ocean worthy "research vessel" or "yacht". I prefer catamaran style vessels because they can more easily be built with wide, flat, open areas - but that's not an absolute requirement. A vessel like this will often have most self-sufficiency equipment already integrated. The cheapest I have seen that are marginally plausible for 4 people cost at least $300K, though I honestly think that's trying to cheap-out too far. More reasonable vessels of this type cost $600K to $900K to infinity.
I very much like some ocean worthy ferries I've seen. Recently I found an absolute dream vessel of this kind, but it got sold out from under me very quickly. Maybe some other liberty advocate bought it. The main reason I like these is... they tend to have lots of flat open spaces (lower deck for cars and physical plant, upper deck or two for people and cafe and shops). These also seem to cost about $600K, but often lack some self-sufficiency systems necessary for long-term independence.
If we happened to get a partner or three with welding and construction skills, some of the most amazing vessels are barges. For example, I was looking at a couple flat-top barges that were on the order of 350 feet long by 90 feet wide. That's a whole freaking football field in size. Of course the idea with these is to start with a clean slate (the flat top) and be able to build, expand and reorganize in modular fashion in any way and at any time we wish. Most of these have little infrastructure, but then again, good deals can be had for only $250K for such a gigantic "floating island".
Sometimes used cargo ships of 80 to 250 foot length go up for sale, and many have fairly complete infrastructure installed for long, across-ocean voyages. Think $250,000 to $800,000 for these.
One consideration that I am not happy about so far is the tendency of these large vessels to NOT have sails, and not have any provisions to easily add sails. The cost of fueling a huge freaking vessel can be steep, so either "we stay put most of the time", or "we need paying customers", or "we need to figure out how to install sails of some kind to move long distances... slowly".
It really isn't possible to make detailed plans unless you know "who are your partners". Everyone has their own preferences, everyone has their own limits on cash and everyone has their own living requirements. So it is necessary to thrash all these options out in advance, because in my 1 year of experience looking for vessels, the really great opportunities sell very soon after they appear on the market. I do know $600K is a minimum (for 4 to 8 people), and twice that is much better.
I'll mention one final option that totally jazzes me. I actually found a couple guys who worked in a crew of several people who built gizmos like this for research purposes, and they're willing (they say) to build another freelance style. I refer to "underwater dwellings". Essentially, these are simple big metal boxes with a few internal rooms and a rectangular cutout on the bottom (wide open on the bottom). They have 4 steel cables on the 4 corners that you can attach to the ocean floor. In "nominal mode" the [typically] 1 or 2 story high box (say 40 feet wide by 90 feet long by 20 feet high) floats on the surface with the bottom not far below the surface of the ocean. But you can also winch the dwelling downward via the 4 steel cables to lower it as far as you want... for example into "low profile mode" where only the roof is above water... or into "submerged mode" where the dwelling is completely underwater (just barely)... or into "deep mode" or "ocean floor mode" where the dwelling is 20, 40, 80 or more feet below the surface.
Typically the walls (and much of the ceiling) are mostly glass or acrylic, so you are essentially living in the middle of a tropical fish tank... just spectacular! And the ~12 foot by 85 foot rectangular cutout on the bottom means... you automatically have an olympic size swimming pool in the ground floor (the ocean being the water). For those of you who think I'm insane, and "that doesn't work, you'll drown", I suggest you go take a water glass to your sink, fill up the sink, then push the water glass down into the water open-side first. That's right, the water does not enter the glass... the inside of the glass stays dry. For a actual visualization of one of these dwellings, I recall there was one episode of the "lost" series that had one of these dwellings (the episode where the rock-star character drowns). I need to do some more research on this, but like I said, I am in contact with people who used to construct these things, and are willing to do so freelance again. I estimate a 40-feet by 90-feet by 20-feet dwelling like this would cost roughly $800K with all necessary infrastructure and self-sufficiency systems. I haven't seen one of these for sale yet. These can also be mobile (can be moved from place to place, albeit usually slowly unless it has "outriggers" or "pontoons" [and the bulk can be raised above the waterline]). I'm not a boat expert, so some of my terminology might not be correct.
If anyone is seriously interested in discussing details privately, I'm happy to do so. But please, if you are not really, actually, serious about doing something like this, please don't waste our time.
We would be so happy you and me
No one there to tell us what to do
I'd like to be under the sea
In an octopus' garden with you.
Yeah, I think we'll find some more practical partners, or do it ourselves (most likely). But thanks for the thought.
Pirates, hope you're well armed. Good luck. I thought of the "ship" option too. Eventually, pirates aside, you will have to port somewhere for repairs, supplies, maintenance. As long as you can find a "civilized" port, you may be OK. If you supply "liberty services", you may be labeled a terrorist or enemy. Tours, if TSHTF, who will be able to do tours. Let us know how it works out. Hope your "ship" is a sail boat too. Where are you gonna get the oil to run it?
Yes, we will be well armed. From asking folks who constantly run ocean charters in similar size vessels, our impression is the chance of having problems with pirates is quite low. Maybe when the world economy crashes and burns that might change. We'll be well armed, just in case.
We plan to live and wander around the equatorial pacific to south pacific regions. There are dozens of small island nations and ports, some of which are quite liberty oriented. Vanuatu and CookeIslands are two examples. Typically, the smaller the population, the dinkier and less threatening the "government" (if any).
I've found dozens of very attractive tiny islands all over the equatorial and south pacific region with zero inhabitants (and often zero abandoned buildings or signs of human life). If you have a vessel you can live on, these places are fine places to "hang out" for [semi]-extended periods of time. Of course, you need to make sure nobody steals your vessel while you're sleeping on shore! Hahahaha. No joke!
Americans are allowed to "go out on boats into the ocean". They are also allowed to "enter international waters" when offshore. They are also allowed to "return to shore" after they are out in the ocean. They are also allowed to "leave their country" without going through a port. Though most people don't notice this, a "passport" is only needed to "pass" through a "port". If you avoid official ports, you do not lawfully need a passport.
Now, I'm not talking about sneaking Mexicans into the USSA. That would be just stupido. But the services I mean are 100% entirely perfectly lawful. If they weren't, owners of boats could not go out into the ocean! It isn't that bad... yet! On the other hand, I don't expect to be anywhere near the USSA! I'm talking about the south pacific. In my conversations with one vessel owner (who I considered buying a 60 foot catamaran from), he laughed at the notion of people getting permission or passports to travel in boats between island nations in the pacific. Everything is very informal... in these areas many of the peoples consider "the pacific ocean" to be their "home".
If you saw my other post, you see that I do very much worry about adding sails to whatever vessel we might eventually buy (if it doesn't have them already). Unfortunately, the large, roomy vessels that I've found so far do not have sails. One research vessel I found was configured in a way that sails could be added, but most were not. That's a bummer. These vessels do have huge fuel capacity, so your question "where are you gonna get fuel" is really "how will you afford to pay for the fuel"! That's where sails (and/or paying customers) enters the picture. There are ways to convert wind and solar into liquid fuel, but they are not as cheap or simple as most of the other aspects of "self-sufficient systems". We shall see how that goes.
Check out Dmitry Orlov's blog: he's into survivalism w/ boats:
www.cluborlov.blogspot.com
"There are ways to convert wind and solar into liquid fuel" - Priceless.
Good one, and very funny, smarty-pants. I didn't mean all you need is wind or sunlight! Sigh. However (to choose the simplest to describe, but usually not very practical), take the electricity from a windmill or solar-panels, run the current through a carbon rod (or other appropriate material) in plain water... and collect hydrogen and oxygen [bubbles] off the two ends of the rod. Compress (liquify) these gases and your have very efficient liquid fuel (liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen). Just ask NASA (for example, Saturn V rockets).
I suggest you do a little researching on Andy Grahams youtube channel, "HoboTraveler". Andy left the U.S. 12 years ago, and has been a perpetual traveler ever since, he makes enough money to support himself through his online blog and writing books about his travels. Here's an example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17LcgUqq3Rc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7Kjkc4fiPU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZAtIN1ebO0
Thanks for the links. Yeah, sometime soon I should learn more about experiences others have had with living and traveling on ocean capable vessels. I hope we can swing something moderately larger than this, and I suspect we can. Most of the vessels I've liked so far are 60 to 100+ feet long. The problem with that is, beyond a certain length they often don't have sails, which makes long distance travel expensive. OTOH, someone just pointed me to a website that sells "sky sails" that are like big kites that can drag a vessel. The commercial ones are too expensive, but then again, they're pulling large cargo ships, which probably weigh many thousand times more (including cargo) than a live-aboard vessel ever would. They provided 1 megawatt of pulling power. So there's yet another option... build my own small "sky sail" and tack it onto a vessel that has no sails.
So, either get a large sailboat (preferably catamaran), get a motorized vessel and add a homemade "sky sail", or figure out how to build a system that generates my own fuel. My past experience inclines me towards the last option, but it might not be the wisest. Lots to think about, lots to learn.
But then again, I'm not necessarily interested in traveling that often (just being able to if we wish), so perhaps a purely powered vessel is feasible.
One of my biggest fears is "overhead". We don't want to get into something and find out we need to work 5 hours a day just to keep the vessel from falling apart due to salt water, salty air, endless mechanical stresses from wind and water motion, etc. I'd rather pay more for something that requires less work to keep it shipshape. More to learn.
Again, thanks for the links.
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I'm more interested in the question of WHERE to go to. I don't know of another country that has the rule of law and protects private property. This appears to be the last stand on earth. If not here, then WHERE? I honestly don't know!
And I don't know where else to go to, then I suppose that makes my answer this one:
Stand, stay, and fight for freedom HERE!
The problem is, the only kind of "fight" that will work at this point (with the predators-that-be so utterly and totally in control) is a shooting war. Not up to that? Then get real... and leave.
All I can say is that Latin America is BOOMING. Argentines feel something stirring and understand that there is a lot of clout in the masses, just ask LAS MADRES. Argentina has lower poverty and crime than the US right now! Go figure! They are ahead of the collapse and have been rebuilding and have great socialist programs that get zapped by the western press! Brazil is a no brainer, and socialism is alive and well there!Except for military industrial complex reaches from the UK via REED ELSVIER! SCUM BAG WAR PROFITEER #^&*(#&!!!! How about Bolivia proclaiming its socialist! Moron Americans brainwashed thinking their socialist when there are really #*(# facists! @#$*()#$ hicks is what Americans are! Good things are happening in S. America, and the people will win with a little help from their North American Expat Friends! Many people now know to invest in GOLD AND SILVER!!!
And I did leave. I saw Germany 1933 all over again in America recently, it took me 8 months to plan and prepare and and I had the foresight to leave before everybody realized it was too late! ¡OVEJAS! ¡TODOS OVEJAS LOS NORTEAMERICANOS! BAAA, BAAA!
Argentina keeps coming up as a potential as well as Chile. Central America has been on my radar and hopefully soon I will make my decision. Congrats on your yours.
surviving in argentina dot com is very informative, he is doing his best to get here and he is middle class with rich relatives in Europe.
Actually, it's: http://ferfal.blogspot.com/
Right that is the name of it oops, thanks. Good blog, like his insights on high cap pistols, driving and inflationary hedging.
Check out Florianopolis, Brazil too. It is close to Argentina and a beautiful place. It reminded me of a mini Rio. It was once on my list of places to move to.
I would agree that governments have become obtuse, presumably because of the sheer size of people that try to govern or are governed by it. As far as where to live, I am reminded of a passage from "Black Elk Speaks", that reads, "Wherever you are is the at center of the world." It is true that what matters most is family, friends, and those close by first and fore most, this because if everyone understood to love thy neighbor then it would be kosher. The problem was for when Governments were made to not redeem and repay each other with gold and silver, for this is how monie works. Like a broken pact between tribes, by the issue of FIAT. Once a printing press begins use to create monie, then debt payments are neglected.
The only way for people to hold the reigns of a government is to never give up their monie in the first place. People should store their wealth anyway they see fit except as FIAT value. Precious metals are true monie.
A bank that was run by a town or county or maybe state may work with sufficient gold reserves, but once such as the private Federal Reserve begins to issue trillions it is time to end the run. Banks should be local, and be of local interest. Corporations should be regulated, like they were in the original American Constitution.
The issue of monie from a FIAT ponzi has many players. They all have one weakness-they short precious metals. Right now the best way to "walk away" is to buy silver. This as an ideological point, but an investment none the less.
----SHOOTING WAR????
Yes I can shoot. Got me a coyote with the AR a few weeks back at 300 yards. That was off hand (not using a rest) and he was moving (I have calves that they kill). I can hit at 50 years off hand and 100 yards with a rest using the 9mm. I also cant see worth a damn at 71 years old.
A shooting war is not on the table for those that understand the concept.
Personally I think Martin Luther king must be revisited. I have had no interest n the TEA Party. This discussion says to me that I need to at least go to some meetins. If that fails I am going to resentfully get involved with one of the parties of the damned.
A one meter target at 100 meters without a scope is not a particularly challenging shot, unless the animal was running, but an AR15 would probably not knock down a coyote at that range; instead it would cause a prolonged death as the animal runs until it bleeds to death. You must be very proud of that shot, then. Congrats.
Bush saw this coming and pushed through the Exit Tax in 2008. If you leave the United States you pay a 31% tax on assets over $600000 and 51% on retirement accounts. Load a boat and sneak into Cuba?
Correction:
you pay a 31% tax on DECLARED assets over $600000 and 51% on retirement accounts
'...simply walk away'.
yup, that's exactly my plan of action.
An organic farmer here for 25 years. Time to join the atlas shrugged crowd. Not that a society could possibly miss those that produce their food.
Juxtapose the thesis in the above article with the impending passage of S510 (article on that also posted on ZH today) and prices on my produce that have regressed 30% back to 1995 levels and....time to check out. I don't intend to spend the rest of my life as a serf.
http://www.isla-offshore.com/second-passport/usa-expats-exit-tax/
I already spend six months per year out of the country, and although I don't "own" a house abroad, I do have a 99 year lease on one. I personally prefer living in Asia, maybe because I spent so many years working there. I usually hang out in Thailand or in Malaysia, on the Island of Borneo. Actually, Borneo is a very nice place...reasonably cheap, not a lot of Muslim Presence as there is on Mainland Malaysia, and it is laid-back and pretty hassle-free.
Just returned from 10 days overseas, pricing suitable properties and looking at future homeland possibilities. It's been a mental exercise thinking about how, when, and where for the past 2-3 years and now moving plan into action. The crack addicts in D.C. will never cut spending; their only answer is to crank up the printing press and higher taxes - sorry, my descendants are not going to be tax-slaves (or tax paying units as Hank Paulson called us) for the super fucking elite.
I'm guessing by now that all of you understand that your fears and uncertainty are deeper than you can articulate and that there is nothing that you can do to assuage those fears about that which is about to happen to you except to rant on these pages of duality.
what do you recommend?
I for one prefer to rant on the pages of a singularity but I kept falling off..
Thanks for the deep, deep, oh so deep thoughts..
Sarc off.. Look that does not help; taking control of your communities will help, get off your butts and go to the next city council meetings, go to the next county commission meeting and bitch.
Do something, this has happened because too many of us were compliant tax payers, stop being a compliant tax payer, bitch loudly every day. If you cannot run for office then yell loudly..
Sacrifice your least favorite bed sheet!! Hang a banner off a bridge tomorrow morning at 4 AM so rush hour traffic sees it. Message of your choice: end the fed, Starve the beast, timmy pay your taxes, anything but do not give up... Did you know that compact florescent bulbs contain mercury, a pollutant, it would suck if a bunch broke in an inconvenient place or time huh.. Think of ways to protest using their rules and mandates against the machine..
See Saad Noah formally renounces his US citizenship for his life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_ARI-QmlOQ
SURVEY OF THE LAW OF EXPATRIATION
http://www.justice.gov/olc/expatriation.htm
Like the environmentalists who can't stand their fellow humans, and so go to dump their solid waste in a pristine environment, all I can say is don't let the door hit you in the ass. And, oh, don't come back.
Militant environmentalists, hmm, the same people that mandate CFL's the ones that contain mercury I hope they never break those in their offices how messy..
one final point for americans to consider... here in asia some countries, particularly singapore, wont allow you to leave the borders even on holiday or business without a current tax clearance. i could see this coming to america. also, no renewal of passport without tax clearance. good luck to you all.
Kudos, to people like you Tyler, really I hope you inspire hundreds like you.
I have already made plans to leave this place, even though I am eligible for citizenship here I will pass. Its far better to be a citizen of a third world country than be a citizen of this corporate fiefdom. I will be leaving in about 6-10 months and will likely never look back.
Just made a quick pass at the comments. All I can say is, go if you want to. No harm, no foul. For those who would stay, including me...it's our country. If enough people are prepared to take it back, I'll be there.
I can't believe I'm having a conversation about saving my country...surreal.
I don't think that leaving the country is any way to fight the gubmint beast, because the newbies who immigrate to replace you don't know any better and in any case as first-generation sorts would be more inclined to bow to the beast...
That said, living abroad is a valuable experience, at least it was for me, and I'm thinking a stay in China might be edifying, interesting and beneficial whilst the dust settles here in the US
Are you TRULY out of your f*cking mind, or
Can you just not take the Prozac on the schedule your doctor reocmmended?
No need to leave, and no need for violence.
Peaceful protest is the hallmark of great change - think Ghandi and Mandela.
In each instance they hit the people in control with the one thing that would hurt and cripple them.
In the case of the US it is money. First, organize a mass withdrawal program from financial institutions over a 6 month period. Then, a peaceful strike by people not going to work for, say a month, would cripple the entire economy and bring down banks and government. No taxes into the coffers, and no one remit state, federal, or local taxes.
I realize that people are far too comfortable and complacent and docile to even consider thesse actions; however this is a very effective way to do it without firing a bullet. The power really is with the people, they just need to use it collectively.
The polarization of dual party politics has ensured division. It is a great power tool by those in control. People must put aside those differences in order to take back the country.
There's a better article of the same type at www.cluborlov.com. See "America--the Grim Truth" which appeared on Nov 24.
Another mile wide brush wielded by orlov .. No single payer health system and our chicken is contaminated and singaporean taxi drivers live better than I do... Next...
indeed bravo
I split in 2001, went to Thailand. I was lucky cause I had lived abroad in Peace Corps. It is easier than you think, but I was motivated by antipathy of the US gov, so it was very easy. Now with the internet, living abroad is sweet, especially tuning into the US train wreck everyday from afar. I agree with the gist of the article, the US is too f#cked up to fix, save yourself. Good luck. If you need help getting your cash out of the US contact me @ taxfreeoffshoregold.blogspot.com
There is a book "Cashing in on the American Dream, How to Retire at 35" that was written by an author who I believe has finally settled in Argentina after being perpetual travelers... we live our lives backwards anyway - if you are on this thread and younger, do not be afraid to take a few risks.
To all the naysayers - WTF, you can always come back ;)
This is hardly a revolutionary idea. A lot of expatriate citizens in politically stable coumtries have given up their US citizenship due to dual taxes, and a lot more are moving or planning to move for e.g. IT jobs in Bangalore. Its odd that a junior American engineer can goto India and comeback here as L-1 on Indian passport(just a joke, but almost real). We fully expect Americans to leave USA in horde after 12months beginning 2012 as all 99ers will be booted out of relatives & friends home, the new graduates will not get a job and finally get the meassage that the era of the American dream is dead and gone. It takes 2 years of total desperation to change peoples minds(a significant torturous emotional event combined with peer pressure as the first average joe buys a one way ticket to Hong Kong or Mumbai or Shanghai). 99ers are just gonna get started without paychecks and the U-6 is 17%- soon just like Chinatown, Mexican neighbourhoods etc we will see America towns in Asia. Americans just haven't grasped the situation fully- a famous movie quote="The enemy should know when they have lost"- another one "The better part of valor is knowing when to play Chicken". (of course the American people arn't the enemies here , but the victims of an impending future shock.
Would it be a good idea to take as much cash as possible out of one's bank account? I suppose one could then buy PM anonymously and hold it so that inflation doesn't destroy it's value.