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SLV Is Now "Hard To Borrow" At Goldman

Tyler Durden's picture


And now for the latest news in the silver meltup: SLV just moved to Hard To Borrow status at Goldman Sachs. This pertains to institutionals who are Goldman Prime Broker clients. Soon coming to every prime broker near you. Comex margin hike imminent now that it is impossible to short the largest silver ETF in the world.


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Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:22 | 1188559 tekhneek
tekhneek's picture


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:31 | 1188601 The Count
The Count's picture

you just had to get that in, right?


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:36 | 1188625 Careless Whisper
Careless Whisper's picture

Don't break out the champagne yet. Preparing for something!? Homeland Security/Miami-Dade Police are doing drills to protect their bosses -- the banks. Three black hawk helicopters do a practice drill last night dropping a SWAT team on the roof of Bank of America headquarters on Brickell Avenue in Miami.



Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:40 | 1188649 The Count
The Count's picture

Hmmm... starting to soil their pants, are they? :-)



Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:12 | 1189110 Dr. Impossible
Dr. Impossible's picture

i forecast in a few days we will hear vandals had set a fire in the gold storage facility at this location.



then in a couple years, insiders will make a movie about the decision to send this group in to shut the vault door, cause the fire had grown outa control.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:44 | 1188660 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Would be tough to either land a copter or repel onto a brightly burning building.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:50 | 1188706 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

They are practicing for the inevitable hostage situations that are expected to develop at banks as people realize they have been cornholed with a sharkskin coated tungsten weiner.  During the Long Depression they were lynching bankers.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:53 | 1188723 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Cool, the precedent HAS been set.  Whats that whole history repeating itself thingy.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:05 | 1189093 Crisismode
Crisismode's picture

History never repeats,

but it usually rhymes.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 21:37 | 1190776 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

mark twain?

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:58 | 1188762 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Rhino it's funny the coincidences in life as I just saw something about shark skin being used as sandpaper by the ancient crafters of the world.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:13 | 1188832 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Try getting into a fistfight with a guy wearing sharkskin gloves.   It's as bad as lion tongue for stripping skin off you.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:25 | 1189196 Dr_Dazed
Dr_Dazed's picture

Tell me about it - that exotic "Lioness BJ" I got while hanging with the Bear (Stearns) guys way back when about did me in.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 22:19 | 1190885 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

"as people realize they have been cornholed with a sharkskin coated tungsten weiner."

Now that's funny!  Well, it is as long as I'm not on the receiving end of that weiner.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 23:27 | 1191111 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

You can tell who owns our "Law Enforcement" officers anymore. You can bet they aren't practicing to break into the bank and pull out the bankster criminals. Nope, instead you know they are training to protect the criminals from the average folks who have had enough of their crimes...the so-called terr'rists.

This county has turned into a joke. I hate to say it, but the sheople pretty much deserve the shit sandwich they're going to be served. I just hope they can figure out who served it to them and take out their anger on them instead of everybody else as they will be directed by Faux News, CNN, etc... I see a low probability of that though, as the nature of the sheople is to react, not think and figure out what's happening to them.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:46 | 1188674 gordengeko
gordengeko's picture

Black choppers bitchez!

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:00 | 1188757 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

I remember writing an essay on 1984 that focused on the symbolism of helicopters.  They're used to intimidate people in my opinion anyway.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:02 | 1188775 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

They are as often or more often the symbol of safety; the big metal bird in the sky coming to lift you off a roof or hot LZ.  Think medivac, Coast Guard, Vietnam...

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:27 | 1188917 iowaguy
iowaguy's picture

Unless you are the Vietcong or a patriot standing up to the Govt

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:14 | 1189144 ArgentDawn
ArgentDawn's picture

Cue MASH music..

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:23 | 1189179 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

Yeah, I remember safety and Viet Nam in the same sentnce once.  Like "Get me the fuck to Safety, those crazy slopes are trying to kill us".

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:38 | 1188951 Steaming_Wookie_Doo
Steaming_Wookie_Doo's picture

One 2nd hand RPG later, they're down a very expensive symbol of the corporatocracy and you're out about $100. Fair deal!

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:13 | 1188833 YC2
YC2's picture

Holy shit.  That was taken from the building across the street from me.  They are coming for my physical lol.


PS been reading since the blogspot days, first post.  Figured it was ok to register since the black helicopters are apparently circling already anyways...

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:15 | 1188838 gordengeko
gordengeko's picture

Yeah, it's when they stop and pick you up is when you should worry.  Otherwise you can go....

........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
...........\.............. _.·´

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:19 | 1188864 YC2
YC2's picture

Ive heard the police had said it was part of a scheduled movie scene filming, which happens pretty often here, but it was more that they were trying not to look stupid for not knowing.


No source, just heard on the street...

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 15:03 | 1189409 lemonobrien
lemonobrien's picture

fuck yeah, this was no game; they probably went in to steal/confiscate documents/etc.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:06 | 1189085 andybev01
andybev01's picture

Welcome to the club, YC2!

If you want first row seats this summer at re-education camp, make a donation to ZH.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:54 | 1189054 Ned Zeppelin
Ned Zeppelin's picture

move along people, nothing to see here.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:44 | 1189300 boricuadigm-shift
boricuadigm-shift's picture

Heyyyy... I posted here a month ago about a cargo helicopter taking a huge cylinder from BoA:

by boricuadigm-shift
on Sat, 03/26/2011 - 11:17


Anyone has noticed helicopters in Bank of America(or other banks) in other cities?  Today I saw a huge helicopter hovering over Bank of America building in (Brickell) Miami, FL.  I know, I know... conspiracy theory...  But it may me think.  What is a huge helicopter doing at 8:30am hovering over a bank trying to land what it look like a 15' diameter x 10' tall cylindrical object on a Saturday Morning?

Food for thought!


THere is definetely something going on.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 15:13 | 1189432 undercover brother
undercover brother's picture

Here's some nourishment for your brain:  it was an air conditioning compressor.....duh

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:11 | 1188836 Soul Train
Soul Train's picture

I can't wait until we the sheople start using silver for our currency between our private transactions.

Finally, those silver quarters, dimes and half dollars will come back out of circulation.


Some day soon I hope. Screw Washington DC beltway bandits and the whole Fed banksters.

Next train, back to pre-1860?

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:41 | 1188980 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

I'm having a new Labor Rate sign made for the Shop.

 Shop Labor Rate is $2 in Silver Eagle Coins per hour.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:26 | 1189206 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

I wouldn't pay that, just put a sign up saying "accepting gold and silver" and hash out a deal. You can't just set rates in stone when silver is going up 60% in 4 months. You would get more takers if you accepted the equivelent FRN rate in silver but slightly below. You should give other people willing to trade you silver a deal as incentive. 

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:14 | 1188848 kengland
kengland's picture

Thanks TD. I just loaded up on ZSL at 100k. Everyone is so high right now it's sick. Dipshits at the gym are speaking with authority now about gold and silver.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:55 | 1189059 Ned Zeppelin
Ned Zeppelin's picture

time to sell when your co-worker in the next cubbie asks how your silver accumulation is coming. 

This all sounds like a setup to me.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:38 | 1189277 kengland
kengland's picture

Amen to that. Espically when these folks were still in their tech undies when silver was at 4.


When the SnP the other day put the US on notice, the same fellow was all about selling treasuries. When I told him the 10 year was unchanged and the dollar had a nice day, he looked very confused.

These folks need to be punished just a wee bit to remind them that it's not that easy

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 16:06 | 1189697 MrBoompi
MrBoompi's picture

The dollar's a piece of crap and losing value as we speak. So please sell me your silver. Or better yet, I'll buy it on the dip after the chickens sell.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:27 | 1189231 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

I would sell that after options experation if I were you, silver will be higher next month but a dip should be here by tuesday.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:36 | 1188955 slaughterer
slaughterer's picture

Do not underestimate the manipulative play on silver that is being set up for this weekend, when liquidity is very low and many markets are closed.  I hope you all loaded up your protective puts above $45., before this "news" (well known already within PD land) broke.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:46 | 1188998 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

straddle performing nicely!

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:23 | 1188561 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Bear raid tomorrow about noon according to Turd. Margin Hike too coming I'm sure.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:37 | 1188633 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

almost too easy....meanwile...the 'big fade' is workin over at the miners party. No position limits means they gotta fook with the jr.'s first.  Like a killer whale with a seal pup. 

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:02 | 1188786 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

"Hey those seal pups were just asking for it with those sad little beady eyes all staring at me.  They were asking for it I say!"

- The Global Kleptocrats

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:00 | 1189071 Xibalba
Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:52 | 1188718 Let them all fail
Let them all fail's picture

for a newb, what affect will a margin hike have?

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:54 | 1188729 cossack55
cossack55's picture

If recent history is any guide, opposite of what they wish.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:16 | 1188847 N_Jones
N_Jones's picture

I'm noobish at this also but I think it means for those buying option puts or calls on futures will have to buy a bigger chunk at a time.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:15 | 1188857 glenlloyd
glenlloyd's picture

margin hike typically flushes out speculative positions who don't wish (or can't) pony up more money to play.

problem is that these 'hikes' have had diminishing returns and typically the market recovers in short order. I wouldn't be surprised this time to see nothing at all come from another hike.

the realization is that they may have totally lost control.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:24 | 1188892 Larry Darrell
Larry Darrell's picture

A margin hike forces people who are investing with a "leveraged" position to post more collateral.

So, say I want to buy a commodity like silver.  In order to invest, I don't have to put up the full amount right away.  If the amount is (a nice round number) $100,000, I can invest by putting in part of that amount (the margin).

So, they hike the margin requirement.  If I'm all in with no extra cash to meet the new minimum amount, then I would need to sell some of my position to raise the cash needed to meet the new margin requirement.

On a grand scale, they hope the margin hike forces enough people to have to sell to cover (raise enough cash), thus driving down the price of the commodity because they have to sell at whatever price they can get to post the cash as collateral.  This allows people who are underwater (losing money) on short positions to get out of there losers with a smaller loss.

This has always worked fairly well for the criminals in the past; however, we find the margin hikes humurous now because their effects are so small and short lived.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:49 | 1189008 Let them all fail
Let them all fail's picture

Perfect, thanks guys.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 17:30 | 1190060 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

well, we don't want them ALL to fail, do we?

Here's Tyler's post last go-'round:

and you can track the movements following.

- Ned

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 16:09 | 1189717 MrBoompi
MrBoompi's picture

Margin hikes mean nothing to people who to take physical delivery. In fact, these things usually drop the price making it easier for us to buy more. Lately, margin hikes have sparked buying have they not?

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:56 | 1188744 Peterey
Peterey's picture

Hi JLee,

Can I ask you who's Turd and what do you mean with Bear raid (which markets)?

Thank you,


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:15 | 1188841 Peterey
Peterey's picture

Thank you

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 15:03 | 1189410 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

No problem. Not to long ago I was asking the same questions.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 17:26 | 1190048 AmazingLarry
AmazingLarry's picture

You buzzed in...

No I didn't...

Yes, you did..

Yea, well that's your opinion.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:19 | 1188815 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Good, the last bear raid was good for about 1.20 drop in price that lasted about 8 hours I think.   I can live with 4 steps forward and 1 step backwards dancing.  

EDIT: RAID IN PROGRESS NOW   .75 drop inside of 30 minutes now.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:25 | 1188898 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Honestly, this strikes me more as high volatility during holiday markets than a raid.  The drops were very short, but not as short as I recall them being during other raids.  With the thin volume, they should be sharper.

Unless they are changing their SOP, I don't think this is a paper short raid.  Just volatility.  It'll likely be back up in a few hours.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:30 | 1188920 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

It bounced right off what looks like a $44.50 support line.   You may be right.  

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:14 | 1189126 B-rock
B-rock's picture

Hello????  With that huge volume spike?




Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:27 | 1189209 tmosley
tmosley's picture

They can't produce large amounts of volume.  Instead, they can sell thinly traded markets, placing large sells all at once, which causes an extremely rapid move, in the order of a minute or so--five at the most.  These moves were over 30 minutes.

So no, much more likely that it was just unfounded rumors of margin hikes scaring leveraged longs.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:31 | 1188923 glenlloyd
glenlloyd's picture

looks like the raid may have been today.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:31 | 1188569 nkktwotwozero
nkktwotwozero's picture


I know shit's bad right now, with all that starving bull-shit.


Prez Camacho


Who is Not Sure?

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:13 | 1188834 Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

brought to you by Brawndo. It's got what the market craves.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:29 | 1188571 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Turd and Mr Lennon have been all over this, their insights have been amazing.

Thanks to both of you for your observations.  Although I am more of a gold guy, I hold a decent amount of silver, so I can enjoy the ride as well.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:28 | 1188572 truont
truont's picture

SLV Hard To Borrow?

It's easy to borrow...but hard to pay back at a profit!

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:27 | 1188579 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

I wish I knew someone that stood for delivery at the Crimex to see what would happen. Practically, from what I have read, it's not a very efficient way to actually take delivery (as opposed to just purchasing from a wholesaler/retailer). Be curious to see what would happen. 

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:42 | 1188648 redpill
redpill's picture

I believe the minimum delivery block is pretty large.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 16:51 | 1189847 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Took a while (and the last time was 2008), but it's the most cost efficient way to pick up quantity (1000z bars + $0 commission vs. 10*100oz bar + 10*$x over spot vs. 1000*1oz coins + 1000*$y over spot).  There are only drawbacks 1) your contract is netted to the actual pour weight of the bar (which can +/1 a pound or more) and 2) you can't easily unload a position in "small" increments (without a bullet casting furnace and buyers who personally trust you). 

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:28 | 1188584 BanksterSlayer
BanksterSlayer's picture

If they can't borrow it, then they'll just print more silver ... oh wait.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:28 | 1188585 gordengeko
gordengeko's picture

Is the emperor's manpon showing now that his pants are down?

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:00 | 1188781 augie
augie's picture

whats a manpon dude?

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:06 | 1188813 TIMMAYYY
TIMMAYYY's picture

a garment you wear whilst counting your silver.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:18 | 1188876 velobabe
velobabe's picture

well here is another rather disgusting definition of a manpon. BTW, never knew men had to do this for themselves.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:25 | 1188897 gordengeko
gordengeko's picture

Nice, I never actually read the definition before.  I just assumed, now I know.ty

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 22:18 | 1190882 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

"And knowing is half the battle!" -- G.I. Joe

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:25 | 1188902 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

I blame down low homosexual catchers and Dave's Total Insanity sauce for the phenomenon.  

Shit happens.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:34 | 1188940 augie
augie's picture

I was just going for a lebowski reference and some how i got hot sauce and anal sex. Zerohedge, oh the places you'll go.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:51 | 1189021 gordengeko
gordengeko's picture

Yeah, I wasn't quite expecting this outcome.  To think someone actually came up with those definitions is what throws me.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:31 | 1189240 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

God, this is disgustingly gross.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 17:35 | 1190075 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

one of the silver bears obviously needs a case or so ;-)

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:20 | 1188872 faithfulwatchman
faithfulwatchman's picture

Women wear

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:11 | 1188835 gordengeko
gordengeko's picture

An apparent sour attempt at mixing lowbrow and high brow  I will do better next time.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:28 | 1188586 Math Man
Math Man's picture

What is the rebate?  That will tell you how hard it actually is to borrow.  The hard to borrow list just means the rebate is not standard...  might actually only be an extra 25 basis points.



Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:31 | 1188600 d00daa
d00daa's picture

Load up on those SLV Jun11 25 puts, cockmunch!

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:39 | 1188635 A Man without Q...
A Man without Qualities's picture

+ 10 for choice of insult.  

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:41 | 1188644 nontaxpayer
nontaxpayer's picture

I wonder why he was junked, he's right...

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:43 | 1188669 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Truth hurts

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:54 | 1189055 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Beacause the Math-Man-Moron is a troll that has posted nothing but shit about PM's - the whole time being wrong!

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:40 | 1189278 akak
akak's picture

".... only $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... must ...... eat ..... silverholders' ....... brains ........"

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 16:08 | 1189720 Math Man
Math Man's picture

The truth does hurt...  all the fucking moron ZH readers junk anything that disagrees with their 'precious'

Meanwhile, the chinese keep raising rates and reserve requirements, the dollar has barely budged since Lehman, industrial uses are only 1/2 of annual supply and production costs are around $5-10 bucks an ounce.  Oh yeah, and the backwardation has disappeared.

"But keep buying!  It's going to the moon!"  scream the ZH readers...    ignoring all the evidence, and continuing to buy somthing that has move up almost 150% in six months, on some silly fear that the dollar will collapse and we will be back on the barter system.   True, the dollar looks like shit.  True, the debt levels suck.  But that doesn't mean you should be buying something for $45 dollars that was selling for $18 a few months ago -- or $5 a few years ago.   This is how bubbles work - logical idea, illogical price.  The dollar may devalue some more, but buying silver at $45 won't save you...  if anything, you'll be completely and totally fucked when the collapse comes.  What makes you think any one will want the shiny rocks you have buried in the back yard - hoarding silver requirs the same faith as hoarding fiat...  you're all just too stupid to realize it.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 16:16 | 1189765 akak
akak's picture

..... only costs $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only costs $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only costs $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only costs $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only costs $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only costs $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only costs $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only costs $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only costs $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only costs $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only costs $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... only costs $5 to dig it from the ground .....

..... must ...... eat ..... silverholders' ....... brains ........

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 16:55 | 1189926 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Ignoring evidence, like, say, the price?  Which is, in fact, headed toward the moon?

You said silver's run was over at $34.  You have no credibility here.  I don't know why you bother.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 17:18 | 1190022 Math Man
Math Man's picture

I'm only trying to help out idiots like you...  95% long any one asset is suicide.  Especially when said asset is a bubble.

I'm diversified... my losses on my puts don't mean shit right now... but when it crashes I'll make a mint.

Have fun with your 95% silver long allocation when it is back below $20...  it only costs 5 bucks to dig it out of the ground.

But seriously at least buy some puts... you can buy even more ounces with the proceeds when it crashes.  But seriously, I can't expect you to do anything remotely as intelligent as that.

And by the way, my Father has a few boxes of rolls of silver quarters that my grandmother had been hoarding before she passed away.   He had no idea they were worth anything until he saw that I purchased some puts on SLV in his portfolio for him.  They had literally been sitting in boxes in the basement since she passed away 20 years ago.   And guess what - he's a seller now - He's quite happy to take the fiat...  and I'm sure that there are a lot of other sellers of silver at these high prices too.  My guess is the supply is about to increase even more.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 17:35 | 1190070 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

No shit, ergo the whole point of a hedge.  Yes, buying power is only useful when it is put to work buying something.  Time to allocate some more resources and equipment with my silver.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 17:39 | 1190078 akak
akak's picture

..... it only costs 5 bucks to dig it out of the ground .....

..... it only costs 5 bucks to dig it out of the ground .....

..... it only costs 5 bucks to dig it out of the ground .....

..... it only costs 5 bucks to dig it out of the ground .....

..... it only costs 5 bucks to dig it out of the ground .....

..... it only costs 5 bucks to dig it out of the ground .....

..... it only costs 5 bucks to dig it out of the ground .....

..... it only costs 5 bucks to dig it out of the ground .....

..... it only costs 5 bucks to dig it out of the ground .....

..... it only costs 5 bucks to dig it out of the ground .....

..... it only costs 5 bucks to dig it out of the ground .....

..... it only costs 5 bucks to dig it out of the ground .....

..... must ...... eat ....... silverholders'........ brains ...........



Hey shithead troll, there is only around 20 cents worth of ingredients in an average loaf of bread --- let me see you go to your nearest grocery store and demand that they sell you a $3.00 loaf of bread for 20 cents.  Yeah, that has success (and logic) written all over it.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 20:26 | 1190572 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

Hey, I'm diversified too:  I hold both Au AND Ag.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 20:26 | 1190581 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

Tell that shit to holders of Weimar Marks...

How much have they recovered against PMs again?

And as far as prepping goes - PMs are just part of the equation - along with water, food, tools, etc. etc.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:30 | 1188593 Doode
Doode's picture

Means a retracement/top coming up in about 3-6 months after another 10-20 point rip.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:32 | 1188594 Bubbles...bubbl...
Bubbles...bubbles everywhere's picture

Does anybody know a good source for the historical purchasing power of an ounce of silver/gold. For example. How many pieces of silver/gold were needed to buy a horse, slave, suit in say 1780? 1860? etc.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:35 | 1188604 The Count
The Count's picture

Google is your friend.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:44 | 1188662 Bubbles...bubbl...
Bubbles...bubbles everywhere's picture

I did, but it's not as easy to find as you might think.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:59 | 1189382 Crisismode
Crisismode's picture

The oldest constant recorded for gold was found inscribed on an Assyrian clay tablet for a bill of sale around the time of Hammurabi. The equivalent for an ounce of gold would purchase 400 loaves of freshly-baked wheat bread.

In the United States, in the early twentieth century, a loaf a bread could be had for 5 cents. Thus, a 20 dollar gold piece would buy you 400 loaves of bread.

Today, with an ounce of gold at $1500., you could purchase 400 loaves of wheat bread for $3.75 apiece. Sounds about right to me.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 15:15 | 1189453 akak
akak's picture

And I bet their bread was much tastier than the GMO, preservative-laden, mass-produced crap that passes for most bread today.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 18:16 | 1190212 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Gibbon, Roman Empire: 1u Au = 1u Silk, (that is at least in the scanned books part of GOOG not doing evil, from late 1800's)

Marco Polo: 1u Au = 1u Pepper (I'd be screwed, thank the gods that McIlhenny was/is among the misguided children). Try his memoire.

There's something in Shogunate Japan about Au to silk ratio.

Your assignment now, please report back.

- Ned

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:33 | 1188605 Temporis
Temporis's picture

I would be interested in this information as well...

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:48 | 1188684 franzpick
franzpick's picture

Recent gold value equivalents are interesting enough: daughter's $550k house bought in 2005 with gold at $450 was equal to 1222 ounces, vs. today's est'd. house value of $300k / $1500 per ounce = 200 oz. gold.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 18:17 | 1190231 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

thanks, despite arbrtrage fuzziness across two fuzzy markets.  Puts things into perspective as I (we?) discuss situations with 'normals'.

- Ned

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:17 | 1188863 earnulf
earnulf's picture

Min wage in 1964 was $1.25, gas about .29 gal.   

Min wage today $7.25, gas at near $4.00 gal

In 1964 you could have bought almost 5 gallons, today, not even two.

But if you were paid in quarters in 1964, those same quarters (90% silver), would be worth......$8.08 apiece for a total of $40.40 and would buy 10 gallons of gas.

That pretty much covers the last 50 years.....

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 18:25 | 1190258 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Min wage is mandated; its effect is to screw the (ethnic) categories who don't clear the hurdle.  Do-gooder whining-bring it on.

- Ned

{I'll leave it to you to do NPV and taxes thing for hiding Ag disks under your bed for that period.  Please expand.}

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:11 | 1188822 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Slave: ~ 800 dollars

Pistol: 15-45 dollars depending

Suit : typically an ounce of gold would get you a GOOD suit. 

Money was coined with gold and silver so just research coin weights and run some numbers in excel to get your answers.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:51 | 1189020 Bubbles...bubbl...
Bubbles...bubbles everywhere's picture

Is that silver dollars? Or ounces of silver, so say 15-45 ounces of silver for a good pistol?

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:06 | 1189086 unclebill
unclebill's picture

$800 Silver Dollars for a slave?, there is no way we can't afford that these days.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 15:17 | 1189465 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

Al Sharpton isn't worth it!

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 16:50 | 1189902 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

800 Silver Dollars (371.25 gr Ag or .77 ozt)

The price is from memory (read that price quote for a young buck in a history book somewhere)

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:25 | 1188912 Lost My Shorts
Lost My Shorts's picture

How much is a slave now?  I was wondering what you planned to compare that with...

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:09 | 1189103 naughtius maximus
naughtius maximus's picture

Chinese labor.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 18:35 | 1190294 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

not limited to chinese, e.g.:

but been goin' along since before the pyramids

- Ned

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 15:56 | 1189665 chistletoe
chistletoe's picture

If you look around,

and you can't see who the slave is,

its you ....

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:35 | 1188946 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

This looks promising.

The IISH List of Datafiles of Historical Prices and Wages

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:02 | 1189074 Bubbles...bubbl...
Bubbles...bubbles everywhere's picture

Excellent link, thank you.


Laborer in Philadelphia/silver grams per day/1801-1810: 8.7

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:16 | 1189141 Bubbles...bubbl...
Bubbles...bubbles everywhere's picture

Prices in grams of fine silver per metric unit/Manchester, UK/1872/Pork, bacon per kg: 8.80.

better load up on these hogs, lol

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:40 | 1189287 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:34 | 1189266 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

Hey not a problem..  I couldn't find a complementary one for gold.  The only information I could find, were several sites talking about 1oz. of gold equating to tailored made suits.  Very telling I suppose, if one is a Wall Street banker, The POTUS or Mortuary attendant.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 17:36 | 1190069 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Based on the averages of those charts ( ~9 gr Ag / day) and some back of the envelope calculations along with current minimum wage amounts (7.25/hour pre-tax), silver was roughly "valued" at $200 / ozt in today's nominal dollar terms.  

But then you also have to calculate that a laborer's rate may not have been equal to minimum wages back then.   

Silver could theoretically ballpark from 200 - 350 ounce.   And THAT is based on 18th / 19th century population levels.   Multiply accordingly based on scarcity. Although to be honest you should also divide by worldwide production rates then recalculate also based on consumption / elimination of stockpiles as silver was not consumed then.

If electronic currency is eliminated our paper currency is literally 20 times more valuable.  (M1 versus currency base)

ROUGH estimate:   I figure that people will be working for a silver dime a day before this is all over.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 18:54 | 1190350 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

You rock SilverRhino!  Well at least I am ahead of the game, if I am only going to be making a silver dime a day.  Make mine a Seated Liberty.  They are my favorite.

Thu, 04/21/2011 - 00:26 | 1191251 Don Keot
Don Keot's picture

An interesting comparison.  In 1913 and average worker earned a $20 dollar gold piece every two weeks or $2 a day.  Current melt price of a dime? $3.23, you may be on to something.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 16:53 | 1189911 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

+++++ Well done! Thanks.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:15 | 1189148 bingaling
bingaling's picture

There are approx. 4 troy ounces of silver for each person in the world . Not a lot some estimates are much much lower .

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 16:16 | 1189771 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

I have read that there was once 2.2 Billion ounces of above ground Ag.  That is now much less, I've read 300 million, but even if it were 3 billion above ground, 4 ounces per person...not even close considering there is near 7  billion people (6.8 billion I think).  In your equation there would be 28 billion ozt.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 18:10 | 1190197 bingaling
bingaling's picture

The estimate I used was from a sight with a high one for the simple reason that even if there are 4 troy ounces per person(I also believe there is far less but go with me here) above ground now it still reflects the enormity of how little silver there is out there . At 4 ounces per person do you think a valuation of $45 one of the best bargains in the world ? I certainly do .

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:32 | 1189256 CHARLIE.DONT.SERF

Prices are not in silver, but can be converted.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 14:56 | 1189366 Bubbles...bubbl...
Bubbles...bubbles everywhere's picture

Great link, thank you!

A pound is equivalent to how many ounces or grams of gold?



Wed, 04/20/2011 - 15:17 | 1189454 Bubbles...bubbl...
Bubbles...bubbles everywhere's picture

More interesting info.


"Classical historians regularly say that in the late Roman Republic and early Roman Empire the daily wage for an unskilled laborer and common soldier was 1 denarius without tax, or about US$20 in bread.[citation needed] (By comparison, a laborer earning the minimum wage in the United States makes US$58 for an 8-hour day, before taxes.) The actual silver content of the Denarius was about 50 grains, or 110 troy ounce under the Empire. In 2010, this corresponds to approximately US$2.70 in value if the silver were 0.999 pure (which it wasn't).[citation needed]"

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 15:26 | 1189500 TheMerryPrankster
TheMerryPrankster's picture

PMs are traded in Troy ounces, 12 ounces to the Troy Pound. But Troy ounces weigh more

1 oz = 0.911458 oz(troy)

Ounces conversion
A unit of weight equal to one sixteenth of a pound or 16 drams or 28.349 grams

Troy Ounces conversion
A unit of apothecary weight equal to 480 grains or one twelfth of a troy pound

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 15:26 | 1189509 CHARLIE.DONT.SERF

Silver is now at 27.43 pound sterlings per ounce or 913 pounds per ounce of gold.  


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 17:00 | 1189948 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

At that time a pound Sterling was literally a troy pound sterling silver.   Figure 16:1 silver to gold ratio and go from there.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:31 | 1188602 RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

Just short PAAS.  Plenty of shares available, and by far the weakest of the group.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:35 | 1188622 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Think I will continue to short USGOV. Much more fun and immensely more profitable.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:58 | 1189063 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Robot Trader - Listen to your beautiful mom!

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:35 | 1188606 Calls and Putz
Calls and Putz's picture

Comex margins will not be raised.  Raising margins squeezes out the least capitalized players. The shorts are the ones with the capital problems. A margin hike will only fuel the fire. Why would the COMEX do that?  They won't.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:37 | 1188632 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Because they are:

1. Stupid

2. Deperate

3. Desperate and stupid

4. Only following orders, mein Herr.


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:33 | 1188607 Chappy
Chappy's picture

Tyler, forgive me for not reading between the lines , I'm a newb.  Are you implying that hard to borrow is becuase everyone is shorting and you expect a huge drop soon?

btw, great webpage. The story behind the story here at ZH is great :)

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:37 | 1188629 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

With ordrinary stocks, longs have the option to tell their counterparty to not make the share lendable, or repoable. If everyone does this there is no way to borrow shares from brokers to those who wish to short. In ETFs it is a little more complex, although superficially a general pull of borrow could lead to same result.

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:44 | 1188675 Chappy
Chappy's picture

So.... If no one can sell short shares then the stock will continue to melt up or crash because no one is on the other side of the trade?

Wed, 04/20/2011 - 13:32 | 1188925 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture


Wed, 04/20/2011 - 12:58 | 1188743 duo
duo's picture

Does that jack up the premiums on the ITM SLV puts I just bought?

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