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greece people dont want this bailout, german people dont want to pay for it, in a true democracy this would be impossible that there is still a bailout ongoing
Agreed. However, there are better German newspapers and magazines than DER SPIEGEL. Try this one:
and enjoy the comments ("Lesermeinungen zum Beitrag").
Its not a present for the people of greece and not for the EU bankers, its a DB designed present for the CDS insurers who would be nuked if they had to pay for a defaulting Greece. ;)
E. Coli test run data is being analyzed by TPTB.
Soon coming: E. Coli massive outbreak in....Greece.
I cracked jokes when everyone was on the other boat like "I need a T-shirt that says I came to Porto Portugal survived the pirates of Portugal ride and all I got was this shitty shirt" People laughed with looks of shock still on their faces. Miguel who sold us the tickets asked us all to come back the next day instead of giving us our money back...I said fat chance and others felt the same, we got our 10 Euro per person fair back and had our horrified hosts pick us up. I sucked down sangria like i was going out of style at supper of which I had octupus. Wifey's nerves caught up to her by about midnight and we asked for a ride home, too bad the Yaris they borrowed from their sister as they have 2 seater Fiat (hahaha metaphors anyone?) ran out of gas as we exited the highway headed back to the hotel. Luckily one of their best couple friend of the ones at the resutarant bailed us out (lol) by bringing some gas shortly as the service station was closed when our driver reached it.
LOL propoganda makes me laugh... this story said something about swerving from a tree trunk.. the captain was obviously not paying attention because we continued on the same course slightly veering for 45 seconds till we crashed. LIES LIES LIES. story has a photo I have plenty better ones too.
Wifes back hurts and I think we will head down to take a look and give a better account to Authorities.
jeeeezus I need a vacation from my vacation
Oh and it is the National Elections today here. Wonder how that will shape up... Our hosts are horrified as they cannot believe this happened to their American friends they are trying to show a good time. They have been very warm and welcoming and Porto is pretty. Oh you haven't been to Porto? really you must go (staunch snobby sarc)
In addition to a gift for CDS insurerers caught in a bad trade, Greece is just a play for time. The central banks are playing a rear guard action to delay the collapse while they collect as much gold as possible, and then dig themselves out of debt with the conversion to a new gold standard. Although things really accelerated over the last few years, it has taken the bankers almost a century to truss up the nations of the world into one huge financial straight jacket. After all that hard work, they have no intention of losing power by letting any nation free, even a small one like Greece.
I view this as sort of an OPEC thing. They all agree on pumping limits, and they all cheat a bit, but the cartel remains. The central banks of the world are slowly buying gold. The price of gold keeps being slowly depressed, and then it creeps back up. I think the central banks have purchase limits like OPEC, or else, the price of gold would easily surpass their power to suppress it. Viewed in this way, central bank actions like the bailouts of countries like Greece, and the Fed lending money all over the world, make sense. They are playing for time while the central banks acquire their allotted amount of gold. Allotments would naturally be based on foreign currency reserves and debt. Low and behold, China has acquired the most gold, gee what a surprise. Germany bails out Greece with fiat, and is allotted additional gold purchases to offset the resultant debt.
Naturally, just as with OPEC, there will be cheaters who secretly buy more, but the amount they could do so without being detected by other central banks would be minimal. I would love to see a comparison between pre crisis currency reserves and the estimated gold holdings of central banks. I bet they are correlated.
How is Greece to the EU and the Deutschland any different than the US and New Mexico?
In terms of GDP contribution and federal tax distribution dollars the US would be so much better off if we could just let New Mexico go.
ThirdCoast, I have lived in both New Mexico and Texas. The appropriate comparison would be Greece is to the EU and Deutschland as New Mexico is to the US and Texas. New Mexico, one step from a 3rd world nation.
NEW MEXICO A deficit for the current budget
year estimated at $433 million in August has
turned into maybe $700 million less than two months later.
That’s about a 50% increase.
It's a 62% increase
Follow the "bailout" cash.
In theory Greece is "bailed out".
In fact the banksters who have greedily and stupidly "lent" Greece are the recipients of any bailout.
Just another scam by the same banksters. It's the only "trick" they know.
We all know the answer to these scams by now.
Do it, Greece! Do it Ireland! Do it Portugal. Do it Spain. Do it Italy!
The first bloody revolution against a corrupt and treasonous government will be in Greece. The government there is selling the country to the criminal banksters and subjecting their citizens to debt slavery for the current and all future generations while they will undoubtly receive a nice payoff from the banksters. CORRUPT TRAITORS. Hopefully, they will first kill the EU banksters and send a hit squad to America to assinate the scumbag heads of gs, jpm, wfc, bac, c and ms that also initiated the DEBT FRAUD in GREECE. Hopefully, the American people will then do the same thing to our corrupt treasonous government that intends to do the same thing to it's citizens. Time to rid the world of the sociopath, cowardly, parrasitic elites committing mass murder on a global scale. KILL THEM ALL and send THEM to HELL where they belong.
That's a good start.
What times we live in, oh my goodness...
Even if greece did spend/take to much credit in the last 10 years before the financial crisis.... how does that justify this never ending debtspiral /debtslavery greece is being pushed into.
Its such a trick! Oh my goodness... like a dealer geting some guy hooked on dangerous drugs... and then exploiting this guy to his death...
Oh the revolution will be bloody but very much needed "history in the making"!
Goddamn I love this site.
BTW im constantly amazed at how many people think your crazy when you start using the 'kill' word. Care to guess how many hundreds of thousands have died over the US war for oil campaign? Problem is we'll be getting the shaft the entrie time we're trying to "talk out" a solution. The assholes in charge will never listen. Maybe people in the US will realize they should've gone a different route when they no longer have guns and take their family to vacation at Bejing Canyon Park in AZ. You can't reason with sociopaths that have unlimited cash and military at their disposal. Just like wisconsin, I think unions have a lot of faults but I won't cry if every one of those lawmakers get slaughtered over it.
thanks for feeding my daydreams... good words... say it could happen in reality, please.
On a more moderate note, aren't the empire state rebellion people having a do soon? I have not heard anything for a while and was just wondering if it was still a go.
Wow, you are angry, but I question whether you've actually had much experience of the Greek way of doing things? They've run up massive debts, with no intention of paying, hiding huge amounts of it off balance sheet in derivatives, debts in state owned operations, unpaid bills etc.
You think that Goldman Sachs was evil in the derivatives trades they did with Greece that allowed Greece to meet the Maastricht criteria. So let me tell you two facts -
The rules that allowed this to happen were pushed by the French government during the forming of the IAS rules (government exemption from putting derivative on balance sheet)
Greece approached Goldman with the idea and not the other way round.
So, if the Greeks want to be "free", they should just refuse any more debt and default. You have no idea how quickly things will fall apart in the country. The hospitals, schools, law enforcement, trash collections, trains, buses. Unemployment will jump by 20 to 30%. The people who have gained from this are the Greek politicians, bankers, civil servants, trades union leaders who have moved hundreds of billions of Euros to offshore bank accounts will flee the country, and suddenly the citizens will realize who are the criminals when the extent of the theft is revealed.
If Greece was able to seize half of the looted money, tighten up tax collection on things such as the biggest industry - shipping - which is essentially tax exempt, and privatize many of its state owned businesses (as much as to force the changes needed to bring profitability and get the cash negative assets off the books), and somehow deal with the culture of corruption, then they will get through to a manageable future. This future is to accept it is a relatively poor backward European nation that does not have the same per capita GDP as Germany or France and therefore cannot spend as though it does.
As for these protests, these are not a grass roots movement, but rather organized by groups that are merely seeking to hide their crimes. The trades unions have been as complicit as anyone in creating this chaos and have siphoned plenty of cash to secret accounts, so don't be fooled by the banners...
I don't disagree with anything you say per se, but do disagree with the M.A.D. concept that a default would bring. We've been so indoctrinated to the central banking, fractional reserve model that we assume that nations have to borrow in order to spend. They do not. Greece could default and the very next day have an interest-free, debt-free scrip available for currency purposes. Perhaps some of it is backed by gold. Perhaps it is not.
Iceland is a ready example of how countries can default and the sun still rises the next day. I don't disagree that the Greeks have some adjustments to do, but it can be done without the bankers and the looters you mentioned. Probably better if it didn't.
Please remember, Iceland did NOT default on its sovereign debt. It merely refused to guarantee the debts of its banks. The crazy speculation of the Icelandic banks was mainly paying silly money for overseas assets, but the Icelandic population as a whole had been bystanders to the worst excesses of the credit bubble. Furthermore, Iceland was not a country that was highly dependent on the public sector, nor was the government understating its debts.
I think Iceland did the right thing (especially given how the foreign banks had made a fortune out of getting the Icelandic banks to buy crappy assets), but thy have still taken on a lot of debt to support the deposits of the private banks.
As for Greece, what scares me is the more adjustments are done, the more obvious how broken their model is.
I think the best thing would be to pull the fucking plug on this, stop the loans and force a restructuring, but I think it will result in far greater austerity than currently planned. The moaning of the unions is merely posturing to ease the terms, but they will take whatever they can get.
Not making any friends with this post but.........
I am quite certain the plug will never be pulled. Truthfully, it can't be pulled. The reason is simple. Everyone involved is a crook: Bankers, Greek Leadership, some of the Greek people.
Bankers: we know the story
Greek leadership: They are probably the most responsible. They knew that constantly printing Drachmas over the past 30-40 years and joining Euro would eventually lead to this. They used the confetti to hire every single incompetent idiot and put him in a government position. They knew decades ago what bloated budgets would lead to, yet they continued mercilessly.
As for other countries not knowing Greece's financial condition when they joined, I say HOGWASH! Lies! They knew full well what a disaster the place was. I remember having a discussion with a German of Greek descent years ago and he was telling how the public sector in Greece had more workers than Germany! That was about 25 years ago and Germany had about 6-7 times the population. Add to that the generous benefits, extremely low retirement age and the extra 2 million on some form of disability and voila! You don't need to have insider info to know things are bad. Add 1-2 million illegal immigrants to spice things up and ......
Many Greek people know what crooks their goverment leaders are. So instead of demanding the situation be straightened out, they just took all those useless jobs and performed as horribly as they possibly could. "What do I care? I have a goverment job!" They are now calling the government officials crooks and demonstrating to preserve the theft they were committing for so many years. This type of attitude has a way of destroying a society if given enough time. It is entirely unhealthy.
The tax evaders are many but they look at the government as crooks too. "Why should I pay for all the lazy idiots they hire, the misappropriatons and their bloated budgets?" Vicious circle.
Why have the various documents been drafted by a British law firm? Why are the British courts to be used for any disputes? Why did Gpap insist on the IMF? Why is Greece not allowed to borrow elsewhere to pay off these debts? Who would sign such a contract? I am not saying anyone would lend Greece money but why disallow it? Was any of this ever voted in their congress?
So bankers knew full well what was going to happen. They used the puppet governments to keep the Greeks docile with stupid jobs and eventually they couldn't function on their own anymore. They came to depend on handouts. Now they've pulled the rug from under them.
Should the Greeks revolt, the banksters will make their life a living hell. Then maybe everyone will realize that freedom and honor can only be earned. You don't sit idly for 30 years watching your country go into the shithole simply because someone is buying your votes with 700 euros a month and then all of a sudden come out and act like a patriot by demanding more of the same.
Similar situation in the US. All the homeowners that could actually afford a cardboard box lived in McMansions. They even borrowed money against the homes and walked around like they were the top dog. Everyone was a real estate expert.
The troika I know consists of:
1. Banksters - crack dealers
2. Governments - Facilitating the deal
3. Some of the people - Hypocrites stupid enough to play games of which they do not know the rules.
Very well put. The Greeks need to take a hard look in the mirror to understand why they are in this mess, rather than calling the Germans Nazis or trying to blame the bankers. Too few were willing to fight the corruption, but rather took money they knew the country could not afford because everyone was doing it. The great mistake was ignoring that Greece was not culturally ready to join the Euro, too used to inflating away their debts to even consider how to balance the books, too corrupt to be able to use the cheap funding rates responsibly.
I tend to agree with everything you said except for that greed of the average Joe schtick. I keep hearing that, but that is the explanation of the ruling class to cover their misdeeds.
The average Joe has always been ignorant about money matters, and yet I am constantly told that people today are greedy because they bought an SUV, a TV, went on a vacation, and bought a bigger home.
In days gone by, there were no SUVs, but there were station wagons, and they weren't cheap.
There were TVs, and they cost a whole lot more in inflation adjusted dollars then they do now.
People owned vacation homes in days gone by, do you know anyone with one now.
People took vacations back in the day too, only they had 6 kids and a wife that didn't work.
Today, we need two paychecks for their family of four to go broke. How is it that you believe that people who are killing themselves with multiple jobs, and a commute that is triple what their parents had are more greedy than before? They are just trying to hold it all together.
If anything, the public's fascination with the stock market was a symptom of desperation in a world where they know they are being cheated.
No, the "People are greedy" line is just another propaganda piece to convince people there is nothing wrong with a society that took away all financial education from the populace and then flim flammed them with easy credit, userous fees, and ridiculous mortgages that are really quite affordable, trust me.
The innocent (ignorant) trusted, and got exactly what innocent people get when faced with corruption. If I hear another educated person tell me people today are more greedy than before, I am going to vomit.
We all agree the system is rigged. You try to change the system, you don't go borrowing in order to look cool.
Please understand I have nothing against the poor person trying to better or improve their life. However, the one difference between the rich and poor is that the rich live beneath their means and the poor usually well above.
The poor have to borrow to live in a respectable fashion. Borrow for reasons that may make a real and lasting change.This is why most people that win the lottery usually wind up broke.
Specifically in Greece, you should see how those employees acted. You would be amazed at the indifference created out of spite towards their fellow citizen. They should have been out there trying to change the system and make it fair for all even when the going was good, not just now that the handouts have stopped.
...that we assume that nations have to borrow in order to spend. They do not.
...that we assume that nations have to borrow in order to spend. They do not.
Of course they do.
If you don't borrow, you will be bombed like Qaddafi or starved like 2 mln Iraqi (among them 0.5 mln children) during UN embargo.
Your choice: live with debt, or no live without debt.
For our elites, wars and killing are sacral rituals, it's a way to praisie the Devil and mother Gaia.
let us get a few things clear
1) the greeks needed wall street to hide the extent of their balance sheet problems
2)the bankers are the experts on risk management, as an MD I have to give my patient the best treatment, and if something goes wrong or I do wrong I am at fault. the lender makes the choice to lend. that is his business. if he can't figure out those who have the ability to pay it back the lender goes out of business. that never happens in western capitalism. We keep bailing out these banks for doing exactly that over and over. If it happened one time and bankers made a mistake and didn't do it again, that would be one story. But that isn't the story.
Nobody puts a gun to a bankers head and says I have no income, no money, no docs and forces the loan. the laons are given with an assumption of bailout because it always happens. this cycle must be broken what ever the cost. back the depositers, all else loose.
Maybe the fucking bankers when they loose some money, and the bondholders who loose money will in fact actually look into who they are giving loans to. Poor bankers they were taken advantage of by the greeks, you must be stoned. lat american debt crisis, russia debt crisis, savings and loan crisis us, citi has been bailed out three times. the japanese banks were zombie banks. LTCM
let us add that under any real system these firms have been involved in so many illegal activities (that they pay a fine and continue) that they would be labelled criminal enterprises and shut down. they are crime syndicates backed by the state.
I am afraid your thinking of this is just wrong.
Many posters here think you're exaggerating.
We know you're not.
You are being conservative and restrained.
This is merely baiting by MethMan's first cousin (who is also his brother).
"When debt is the problem, nothing works better than more debt!"
Key rule to conceal your own insolvency: keep lending to insolvent people.
As long as you do that, in a world where the majority of advanced countries are insolvent, nobody, especially not the insolvency, will question your own insolvency.
You don't have to outrun the bear chasing you, you only have to outrun the slowest person in your group.
Until the bear gets hungry again. Also, it might be a very large bear. And maybe more than one....
Exactly, keep lending to hide your insolvency and play for time until the system can be changed to make you solvent.
China can reinvest all those short term notes. (usd denominated)
"Greek lady next to the EU Swastika flag is wearing designer glasses and a gold watch."
Tyler and dog, when did swatch start to make gold watches?!?
The only problem I have with that lady is that while the glasses and watch are fake, the cigarette is real which means that she waists her money and she is lazy.
Nonetheless, it is now time for the noose. Western civilization started there, let's see the first Bankster and first politician in this millennium get noosed there.
Designer glasses and fake gold watches are different frauds. One fraud at a time, if you please!
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the public is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country." Edward Bernays
LMAO I thought the faux pas Starbucks sippy cup was a bigger offence.
Oweeeshit. American Idol, Jersey Shore and Dancing with the Stars reruns are on tonight. Just before CNBS' 2007 Cramer-thon. Get stoked!
Bernays, the father of Perception Management.
I must say the flag is very well done and completely appropos.
Hillarious video on the EU situation, have a drink first if you can. I got my 20pack on ice outside. Just got done cuttin a tree down, take a shower and it's on:
I recommend ppl watch the video. Hilarious.
Here is another interesting video, cartoon actually, the american dream.
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