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Step Aside US: Pakistan's New "Best Friend" China, To Provide Karachi With 50 New JF-17 Fighter Jets On Expedited Basis

Tyler Durden's picture


There was a time when a young Mujahideen commander named Osama bin Laden was a core ally of the US in the fight against Soviet communism and central planning. Well, that particular affair did not end too well for either Osama, nor for the USSR (although one may argue that "communism and central planning" are experiencing a second renaissance courtesy of capitalist central banking). Along the same lines, Pakistan which as recently as 3 weeks ago was considered a core US ally, has very promptly fallen out of favor following the death of that other abovementioned former ally. Yet Pakistan is not wasting time. Two days after Pakistani PM Yousuf Raza Gilani took a direct stab at deteriorating US-Paki relations by saying that China is now his country's "best friend",  China has retorted in kind by announcing it will provide another 50 JF-17 fighter jets to Pakistan on an "expedited" basis. The WSJ reports that "the agreement to accelerate supply of the jointly developed jets, the first 50 of which are being assembled in Pakistan, came as Pakistan's Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani held talks in Beijing during a visit that he has used to portray China as an alternative source of military and civilian aid. "We're getting the 50 jets, on top of the ones we already have. Something has been agreed in Beijing, so they'll be expedited" he said." In other words: step aside US, here comes China. As for those billions in USD aid which somehow never ended up being used to buy US Treasurys (Pakistan is nowhere in the listing of US Treasury holders) , it is now clear into whose pocket they are going (at $15 million a pop, those are big pockets). Lastly, this is more than just posturing by China: the country is clearly indicating its latest and greatest sphere of influence. As a reminder, "It was reported in 2008 that Azerbaijan and Zimbabwe had placed orders for the aircraft and nine other countries, including Bangladesh, Myanmar, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia, Morocco, Nigeria, Sri Lanka and Algeria were showing interest."

More from the WSJ:

China is Pakistan's biggest arms supplier and its third-biggest trading partner.

The JF-17 is a potent symbol of the two countries' friendship, and a key part of Pakistan's plans to upgrade its aging fleet of American-supplied F-16s and French-made Mirages and to try to match the air power of neighboring India—its arch rival.

The U.S. has repeatedly delayed delivery of F-16s to Pakistan, and has insisted that they not be used against India, with which Washington is now cultivating a strategic partnership to counterbalance Beijing's clout in Asia.

China and Pakistan began developing the relatively cheap multipurpose fighter in 1999 and Pakistan, which has said it wants 250 of them altogether, inducted its first squadron of JF-17s last year, and a second earlier this year.

The air-force spokesman said he did not know whether the second batch of 50 jets would be assembled in Pakistan or delivered whole from China.

He also declined to discuss whether they would be the basic so-calledBlock I models, like the first batch, or an upgraded Block II version, which military aviation experts say could include radar-evading stealth technology—potentially giving Pakistan that capability for the first time.

Questions also remain over the new jets' engines. The first batch were all fitted with Russian ones, but Russian officials have expressed reservations about supplying more of those engines as Pakistan and China have been marketing the JF-17 in many of Russia's traditional markets.

Meanwhile back in the US, the politicos are stunned that after being shunned by the US, Pakistan dares to allign itself with America's natural opposite.

Pakistan's efforts to showcase its close ties with China are causing consternation in the U.S.

During a hearing of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Tuesday, Republican Senator Jim Risch of Idaho expressed frustration at Mr. Gilani's statement that China was Pakistan's "best friend" despite billions of dollars of U.S. aid over the last decade.

"It just—it just doesn't make sense...Because, frankly, I'm—I'm getting tired of it, and I think Americans are getting tired of it as far as shoveling money in there [to] people who just flat don't like us," he said, according to a transcript.

At a hearing of the House Foreign Affairs Committee last week, Congressman Michael McCaul (R) of Texas raised particular concern about whether U.S. military aid had been diverted into the JF-17 program.

Yes. It has.


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Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:12 | 1292500 Hard1
Hard1's picture

Expedited bitchezz!!!!

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:24 | 1292556 kengland
kengland's picture

There's nothing new here. They've been supplying the paks with these for years

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:53 | 1292718 BigJim
BigJim's picture

I hope their fighters are better engineered than all the other crap they export.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:05 | 1292773 trav7777
trav7777's picture

yes...4 year old news.

Clone of the Mirage 5.  Garbage plane.

Will make more targets for India's superb Su30MKI to blow out of the skies.

Siding with Pukistan against India was among the worst strategic blunders ever.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:16 | 1292807 Dejean Splicer
Dejean Splicer's picture

Yes, yes, but if it's anti-China Tyler will feed it to the ZHeeple. And anything pro-israli gets top billing also.

Another ZH article for the dustbin.


Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:36 | 1292912 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Care to give any reasons to be pro-China? Or pro any government, for that matter?

I can't recall ever seeing Tyler promote any of these criminal syndicates, but hey, I'm biased, so I could be blind.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 18:53 | 1293744 Dejean Splicer
Dejean Splicer's picture

"Care to give any reasons to be pro-China?"

Ha! Caught you! Openly admitting to having a negative bias against China. I will proceed with my tenure at ZH with this in mind.

No need to be pro-China rah rah rah, how about neutral? Let's give it a try for a month and see how it works out. Ok, team?


Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:01 | 1293308 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Man, you have a hard time picking winners.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:15 | 1292824 nufio
nufio's picture

Its only because india is more of an economic threat to the US than pakistan is.

China is still late at the global geopolitical game. Now if they could begin to forment US-Canada discord that would be something.

Now that China-Pak ties are being cemented, i can bet that US will increase support to india in terms of technology, and arms and loans to buy the arms.

The indian sheeple have been "conditioned" to hate the pakistanis just like the US politicians have done with the US sheeple about the arabs. This will help them welcome the "loans" to buy the previous generation of planes from lockheed that the US will generously allow india to buy. I guess people deserve what is coming to them for not seeing through this whole thing.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 19:23 | 1293816 rocker
rocker's picture

That's pretty good logic. My thought. Who's left after they blow up Pakistan, India, Iran, Israel and us. China and Russia.!?!

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 23:23 | 1294464 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

It's all already happening. For decades the US was Pakistan's best friend and totally India neutral. Then, when the outsourcing boom was needed, it all shifted.

Now, India is best friend (they are selling us civilian nuke tech, all kinds of technology importation barriers are being dropped, cultural invasion like you will not believe)....

And of course, India's largest or second largest defense partner is Israel.

Enough said.


Fri, 05/20/2011 - 04:32 | 1294822 Bull_Dragon
Bull_Dragon's picture

Guess what India flat out rejected the Lockheed &  Boeing orders for supplying the Indian Airforce with 126 new fighter jets. I guess people do see through this whole thing in some part of the world. Also, kindly proceed to reading more international news to improve your knowledge of current affairs. 

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 15:29 | 1296525 nufio
nufio's picture

but they did try and will keep trying. so now india is buying french war planes. as far as the average indian is concerned he still has to pay the debt for the goddamned fighter jets. India needs to seriously cut down on defense spending and resolve issues with Pak and China.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 08:48 | 1292838 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Well it began in 1956...with US aid institutionalized to kill the independent India of Nehru JF Dulles...the man who hated third world dominoes which wanted to be INDEPENDENT (aka Bandung conference 1955). So he bought the rival country of Pakistan thanks to USA's military complex. Now, years later,  the chickens are coming home to roost ...after fifty five years of butt bashing of the Pakistan military complex, and of the PAk people,  by the USA MIC! 

What is now a killer for the USA and the west is that these hegemonic, DC world order "assholes", who thought every body and every body's brother was their surrogate bitch for always, now get goose pimples at realising that these "shit-head third world losers" now HAVE obtained through stealth the NUCLEAR device. It now makes their predatory blood go cold...As they cannot even manage a feudal Afghanistan...their ability to manage a 130 million hornet's nest called a fundamentalist inclined Pakistan, engineered in benign imperial, arrogant neglect by good ole USA, now deep shit in debt, and  with a credit rich China breathing down their necks, it becomes a true nightmare...Oh, Ronald where are you...

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 21:14 | 1294106 XPolemic
XPolemic's picture

Siding with Pukistan against India was among the worst strategic blunders ever.

Good lord you are an idiot.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:30 | 1292587 TheTmfreak
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I remember reading that in something like 5 years, interest payments to China will pay for their entire military budget. How nice would that be? Not only do we pay our own grossly huge military budget but we pay for China too.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:50 | 1292686 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

I think that assumed less than parabolic growth in commodities.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:00 | 1292747 TheTmfreak
TheTmfreak's picture

Yut Roh!

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:36 | 1292922 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Ceteris paribus, FTW!

After all, who needs the clutter of variables in their models? They're so passe.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:48 | 1292689 legal eagle
legal eagle's picture

Yes, China believing they will get those interest payments is similar to an 18 year old relying on his social security payments.

If the government stopped spending today and instead paid $100B a month toward the national debt, it would take 370 years to pay.

The debt cannot be paid back unless it is paid back in seriously dilluted monopoly FRNs, and maybe China will be able to buy one jet with their $870B in US treasuries at that point.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:57 | 1292721 TheTmfreak
TheTmfreak's picture

Nobody said anything about paying off the debt. We are paying interest payments to China...

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:25 | 1293124 prophet
prophet's picture

math check

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:54 | 1292706 Fukushima Sam
Fukushima Sam's picture

Funny how when you don't have debt service payments you can actually invest in your future.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:59 | 1292742 TheTmfreak
TheTmfreak's picture

I wouldn't use the word "invest in your future." I'd rather say be ABLE to cut taxes so private citizens can do what they will with their money.

Less debt service payments in reality just means more debt the government can accrue by spending more than it takes in.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:00 | 1292749 legal eagle
legal eagle's picture

Arent we talking about interest on the debt?  When we default on one, the other goes away by logical necessity. 

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:08 | 1292795 TheTmfreak
TheTmfreak's picture

We make constant interest payments. Thats built into the deficit every year. A default means not being able to have enough money to pay back interest (and generally some principle) on loans. We take out new loans all the time to have enough money to pay back those interest payments to the chinese and elsewhere.

Eventually the only debt America will have is with itself. (if it keeps buying its bonds and paying everyone else off).

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:38 | 1292930 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Welcome to Hell, where dollars come home to roost.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:59 | 1292761 morkov
morkov's picture

how about a gas pipe iran-pakistan-china? isn't that ironic? oh, i forget china has oil and gas from russia now...traded in "another" currency also...

/sarc off

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:09 | 1292503 Cash_is_Trash
Cash_is_Trash's picture

War at the top of the world, coming to a tv screen near you.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:40 | 1292641 Chris Jusset
Chris Jusset's picture

So when can we expect WW III ?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:44 | 1292674 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Iran chose their fate.

Our Muslim president tried to give them all they could want, and it is not enough.

The only question is whether it benefits the bankers/socialists more to kill Iran's allies, or Iran itself.

Bet the answer to that question.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:00 | 1292750 BigJim
BigJim's picture

And exactly what did our 'muslim' president give Iran?

Did he pressure Israel to stop (let alone dismantle) its settlements? Did he cut Israel's aid? Did he stop vetoing every UN sanction against Israel? Did he cut sanctions on Iran's (perfectly legal) nuclear power industry?

Do tell.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:24 | 1292856 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

He gave them time.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:35 | 1293178 BigJim
BigJim's picture

That's all they could want?

Not very demanding, these modern-day Xerxeses.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:21 | 1293433 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Can you say Nuclear Blackmail? I knew you could.

Explain why you muddy the waters instead of champion the truth.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:32 | 1293487 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Explain how Iran having a couple of nukes (compared with our thousands, and Israel's 300+) will do anything other than make them harder to push around - that is, if they are actually going for nuclear weapons, which is by no means clear, except in the zionosphere where it's bandied about like established fact.

Oh, and tell me - did Ah-me-dinner-jacket really threaten to wipe Israel off the map?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:52 | 1293551 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Don't worry. Christians are wrong.

Iran will keep getting a pass until it is too late. Hell, maybe they are right, maybe God is on their side. The election of Obama would signal that.

A doomsday cult with nukes is the last thing the world needs.

We'll see. I only know what has happened before when the world appeased a tyrant.

Maybe this time will be different.

I would bet not, but I'm not a prophet.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 18:16 | 1293617 Stax Edwards
Stax Edwards's picture

Nope, you are not.

But a rodent, That I'll buy.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 19:13 | 1293794 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Squirrels plan for the future better than half of humans. I am a proud rodent.

Come and eradicate me.

You might be shocked how many rodents there are.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 20:07 | 1293926 crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

Ok Big Jim, I get your point, and it has SOME validity to it, but you lose all credibility with statements like...

"if they are actually going for nuclear weapons, which is by no means clear"

Don't be an ignorant fool.  You HAVE to know their intention is to get nuclear weapons.  To even pretend anything else is total lunacy and ignorance.  The way they taunt their new self developed weapons, including the names they choose for their weapons, is all the evidence you need.  The day they go Nuclear, will be a national holiday, quote me on that.  All you have to do is look at how Pakistan reacted once they went Nuclear.  If you have paid any attention to what comes out of their mouths, you will know this with absolute certainty.  Now, do they deserve to pursue those weapons on their own?  That is an entirely different and valid argument to have. 

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 08:03 | 1294061 BigJim
BigJim's picture

If I were running Iran, I would certainly want nukes. But then... if I'd been Saddam, I'd have wanted nukes too; and we know how that turned out.

Everytime I see an article 'proving' that Iran is attempting to enrich Uranium to sufficient purity for bomb-making, I can read another article debunking it. And the latter sources seem considerably more credible. So I'm not sure I'm the one who should be tagged as the ignorant fool here.

We've already had the WMD shtick pulled on us with Iraq, complete with Colin Powell perjuring himself in the UN. And it was all a crock of sh*t. And yet you purport to believe the same kind of info about Iran? When our MSM and administration are happy to repeat the lie that Ah-me-dinner-jacket threatened to wipe Israel off the face of the map? Why would you believe anything they say?

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice ...

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:24 | 1292854 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Hey Rodent, your grasp of history hasn't improved at ZH...

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:24 | 1292869 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Really? What did I get wrong?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:31 | 1292890 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Iran has a 5000 year history, the USA 250 years. Learn to count and you'll understand which way the world will move in this century...It goes downhill for those who pretend that trees never stop growing and up hill to for those who've had their noses rubbed into shit. 

The wheel  turns...and hubris blinds even the most intelligent. 

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:45 | 1292957 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

As opposed to those who falsely believe that trees do stop growing while they are still alive?

Sorry to pick nits, but you forgot the phrase "to the sky," and thus made a false statement.

AFAIK, every tree grows a new ring every year of its life.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:54 | 1292991 falak pema
falak pema's picture

point taken ! Jack...of the bean stalk!

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:04 | 1293018 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

The Persians were once a power in the world.

Just like Constantinople, the Ottomans, and the USSR.

If you are not capable of truly opposing the big boys, you are foolish to play.

They will stray past the line that even Obama cannot ignore, and the missiles will fly. If O will not authorize release, his successor most certainly will. A matter of time.

Less than 600 days now.

You all mouth off about a US empire. You ain't seen nothing yet. And you will have helped bring it about. Good luck when the US no longer acts even kinda PC.

Idiots. You -- and I -- will mourn the death of the Republic and the birth of the real empire.

I will not mourn you useful idiots. I will obey the orders of the empire, because you are not worth defending.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:44 | 1293204 BigJim
BigJim's picture

It seems to me you're saying that the US will say 'no more Mr. Nice Guy', and become a proper empire, and that will serve all of us right because we're saying that the US isn't a particularly 'Nice Guy' now; and that you will obey the new empire, presumably to let us die, because we are not worth defending.... because we said the US isn't playing 'Mr. Nice Guy'.

Er... what?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:49 | 1293261 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Don't blame me, I voted for the Republic. I will make future decisions based on what I think is best for the US, not anyone else.

You had your chance, you voted for totalitarianism. Live with it.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:34 | 1293497 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Ah, so now you know how I voted? That's impressive. Please remind me how I voted for totalitarianism; I can't seem to quite remember it myself.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:57 | 1293574 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Did I get your anti-Americanism wrong?

Tell me who you voted for, and maybe I'll change my opinion.

Otherwise, I'll go with the probabilities.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 20:46 | 1294026 BigJim
BigJim's picture

No, no, you explicitely said I voted for totalitarianism. Please explain how you arrived at that conclusion, given that I have never said on ZH how I voted. So please explain.

As for my anti-'Americanism' - being against the US elites' imperial actions is not anti-American - it's pro-American, because the US Empire is not in its citizen's interest. It's literally ripping the heart out of everything the US was supposed to stand for.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 20:50 | 1294038 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Did I get the Liberal part wrong? So sorry.

Liberalism, socialism is tearing the country apart.

Nothing changes but the face of the idiots.

Elites  broke us, broke our families, and broke our borders, but claim they will fix it all with more Liberalism.

Morons get what they deserve.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 10:27 | 1295295 BigJim
BigJim's picture

I'm not a socialist, or a 'liberal' (at least, in the modern sense).

I agree both are helping to tear the country apart, but the picture isn't complete without the whole military-industrial-financial-legal complex laying waste to our resources, ethics, and morale as well.

As for morons getting what they deserve - unfortunately, in a majoritarian democracy, they can drag everyone else down with them, moron or not.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:05 | 1293333 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Why are you worth defending... So you can celebrate the killing of more infidels?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:37 | 1293502 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Please tell me how your question is in any way apropos to the above thread.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:52 | 1293560 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

I hope you don't mind if I get back to you at a later date.  Thanks for your time.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:43 | 1293206 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Rodent, The US republic died on November 22, 1963....just like Roman Republic  at Pompey's death. So now we live in an era where the MONEY bosses today, maybe the military bosses tomorrow, will run the world. That this oligarchy has its base in Washington today is our loss and no cause of pride for a simple US citizen. Nobody wins when we have a dictatorship like the one the US exemplifies since 1963...and it's gotten worse...all the time...especially since 2003...and now it TIPPING point of this empire... in the next five years, by the looks of it.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:54 | 1293275 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Totalitarianism is what follows liberal democracies.

You fucked up. Live with it.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:09 | 1293353 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Every country in the world wants to cheat around the edges... grabbing some advantage for their people.  That is good, isn't it?  What happens when it gets out of hand?  Who can claim the moral high ground and be respected when they say... "Cool it"...

At some point, the entropy of the "I'll buck you if you buck with me" mindset crosses the line.

At that point, might is right.  Political ideologies are part of a circle.  The far left is really no different than the far right.  If you can'f find balance, the circle rolls over.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:33 | 1293476 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Well guess what? The US empire is only going one way : down get used to it. Unless you aim to take over as a Canuck!

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:50 | 1293545 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

The US is being given the whole world on a platter because no one else can step up to the plate. The US "is" world credit.  The world does not revolve without credit.

Germany is looking to stabilize Europe.  Britain and France are out of the picture. China cannot take a respected leadership roll in Asia until they cut the dictatorship crap.

No one jumps into the abyss.  Unless someone comes along that is better, you dance with who brung ya...

Once the crap hits the fan, the obvious fiscal marriage is between the German and US economies.  Any talk of a new fiat currency that has their backing is likely the winner.  All others are simply trial balloons and rumor for the fiscal market whipsaw.

I hope you don't wait too long on the road of life waiting for the US empire to pass.  If you look around, it is all around you and it isn't getting smaller...

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 18:18 | 1293630 Stax Edwards
Stax Edwards's picture


Thu, 05/19/2011 - 18:30 | 1293660 falak pema
falak pema's picture

You are damn wrong about the US paradigm :

a) Over Fifty percent dependence on imported oil. No mass transport system. Urban structure all over in suburbia means very high transport costs. Dead end right there.

b) Huge MIC. Huge misallocation of capital to non productive assets. Government sector, high cost base technology. Built on debt. Dead end.

c) All production now outsourced. Massive investment in infrastructure and production required. Impossible with current debt level.

d) Huge consumption level and broken down educational system. Will require big mind set change to turn around population. Dead end for one generation.


Guess what Canuck? Four huge dead end situations. And I am NOT counting the ecological challenge facing the biggest polluter in the world...Don't just LOOK around you, LOOK ahead...

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 18:32 | 1293687 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Communist, and former communist countries are the biggest ecological disasters.

Go long mutants.


Thu, 05/19/2011 - 18:46 | 1293718 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Falak, do some homework.  Did you know in the 1920's everyone was concerned that there wasn't enough oil to go around?  Before that, step back into the 1890's.  Everyone was worried about the availability of coal.  You should have lived through the oil crisis of the 1970's.

Have you heard of Thorium, or mass produced little reactors (Toshiba)?

Have you heard of government cuts?  Who owns US debt?  I bet your pension fund and/or mutual fund does (directly or indirectly).  I suspect the bank you deal with does.  How about the central bank of the country you live in?  Check on US exposure of the 10 most important corporations that affect your life.  Surprised?

Production is starting to come back to the US.  Watch the world unfold.

The education system seems fine for the world's brightest.  They all seem to want to take post-graduate degrees in the US.  What universities do you recommend?  If you aren't the brightest, where should you go to school?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 19:06 | 1293777 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Well my friend when you've learn't to count and understood, that with a 20 trillion debt by 2017, the USA is going nowhere, without a massive deflation, that will generate overall economic mayhem in a country that is spoiled silly. So I would take a rain check on the where people go to do higher education in ten years time. You may find the pendulum swinging fast. Look at Britain in 1930 and look at Britain in had moved from center of the world to near third world economy, in spite of North Sea. Now its going down again. Are you so sure that the US is not fat, like Britain a la 1930? I don't doubt americans have the capability but its ALL gone into the speculative FIRE economy since thirty years. Even the Internet advance is now looking compromised. I would be cautious as to where the growth of the world will be in this young century.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 19:30 | 1293831 Stax Edwards
Stax Edwards's picture

The US is fat by default my friend.  Like it or not the USSR is gone and the vacuum must be filled.  You have a better alternative in mind?  Do tell.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 08:23 | 1294978 falak pema
falak pema's picture

The vacuum is filled. Its called China/India/Brazil etc. Read my thread below for the details.

As for the fat it is getting dangerously cancerous for all the US people, for main street USA. Do tell me how you'll get this fat to melt. By saying 'hey presto?'...

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 12:11 | 1295746 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Falak, you are living in dreams from the middle ages.  Incorporate this information into your thesis.  If you truly have a non-biased intellect, express your thoughts of a probable outcome.

If you are a musician, continue to bang the drum...

Do you understand what is important?

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 07:53 | 1294936 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

... You dance with who brung ya...

The only time the US will be eclipsed is when some country or group of countries passes them and exerts global leadership that everyone respects.  I assume you expect China to rule the world in 5 years time and fill the United States shoes.  If not China, are you thinking Germany or the EU?  If not them, what about a group of countries from the Mediterranean region?  I know that doesn't make sense.  I expect the same goes for a contingent from the South American continent.  I think it is safe to leave the Africans out of these discussions.

I know you are scared of the future and see no way out.  It shows in your writing style.  If you don't have a vision for the future of the world, step aside and allow those who do to pass, as they are wont to do.

Remember if the rule of law is not respected, might is right.  We are seeing the US ascend where all others are stepping aside because they don't want the responsibility.  They would rather complain and bolster their small coalitions of support.

Like it or not, the US will make the global rules.  Unless somebody steps up to the plate, the only role for you is a voice of dissent to offset those who accept the move.  If it makes you feel better, claim superior intelligence and retreat from the field. 

Everyone expects that.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 08:16 | 1294973 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Ever seen anybody making the rules with other people's money?

China Owns the US economy. Every day that passes the debt grows bigger, and bigger. Can you deny that? USA buys more and more from others. China is a free country, not US surrogate. Watch how the chickens run in the US coop when China starts to move into EM market alliances in a big way. Maybe a strategic alliance with EU (PIIGS bailouts, and ME for long term OIL+ RM  LT deals in Africa).

Canuck, your reasoning is just "duck soup".

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 09:07 | 1295067 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

So you are saying the last thing the Americans should do is provide aid to Tunisia and Egypt?  Falak, you disappoint me.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 08:23 | 1294977 BigJim
BigJim's picture

"... You dance with who brung ya..." - what's this? Argument by apothegm?

You appear to believe there has to be a new 'leader' - that an empire can only fall if there's another to take its place. What historical evidence is there to back this belief? Yes, some empires get eclipsed or beaten by others, but was Rome superceded by another empire? No, the barbarians gnawed at its edges and it collapsed under its own weight... which is what we're seeing with the US today. There doesn't need to be a new leader to take over from the US when the costs of empire finally catch up with us and bring us down.

There's no reason we can't have a multi-polar world, where particularly powerful nations or groups of nations wield greater influence over their local spheres of interest. In fact, that's what we did see up until the USSR collapsed - the world was pretty much divided between the US and the USSR.

As for the world needing the US to supply credit - the world is waking up to the fact that ultimately, the only thing backing US paper is more US paper.

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 08:23 | 1294983 falak pema
falak pema's picture

You be the Plutarch of the US debate. Good for you BJ. I loved his parallel lives!

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 09:06 | 1295069 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

You keep that pleasant thought.  I'm sure you believe you are right.  The world needs more pylons that define the "edges".

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 10:20 | 1295274 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Haven't quite got your head around the whole 'rebuttal' thing, have you?

Fri, 05/20/2011 - 11:52 | 1295669 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Do you mind if I get back to you?  Thanks for your attention to this matter.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:33 | 1293477 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Political ideologies are a circle.

At the very bottom, far left, and far right meet.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 23:18 | 1294441 taxpayer102
taxpayer102's picture

@falak pema, America changed in '63 that day in Dallas and through '68 when our fourth leader was taken out.

Been declining since then while also taking on the role of world dictator and terrorist after Sep 11.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:14 | 1292508 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Funny how things come around to bite you in the ass (or your children's ass).

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:20 | 1292835 Dejean Splicer
Dejean Splicer's picture

The law of intended consequences.


Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:14 | 1292509 NOTW777
Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:13 | 1292516 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

" may argue that "communism and central planning" are experiencing a second renaissance courtesy of capitalist central banking."


The Bernank resembles that remark.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:14 | 1292521 monkeys.pick.bottoms
monkeys.pick.bottoms's picture

Is the U.S. liquidating its position in the Middle East even before Ron Paul's victory?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:20 | 1292537 Lucius_Junius_Brutus
Lucius_Junius_Brutus's picture

* oops double post

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:22 | 1292548 Lucius_Junius_Brutus
Lucius_Junius_Brutus's picture

I could tell you right now that it would be very much appreciated, that would allow us to get the fuck out of Afghanistan and Libya. Please vote for Ron Paul, you would be supporting the other nations who blindly follow in the U.S misguided steps.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:51 | 1293283 Abitdodgie
Abitdodgie's picture

Americans don't want Ron Paul look what happened in 08 , Americans like living as slaves and having their freedoms taken away from them, if they did not then why do they keep voting for the same politicians.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:39 | 1292652 Alcoholic Nativ...
Alcoholic Native American's picture

Ron Paul is weak on terror.  He basically takes marching orders from Al-Qaeda.  No way he is winning.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:07 | 1292790 thriftymost
thriftymost's picture

I heard he was in a "committed relationship" with Bin Laden.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:16 | 1293085 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

What?  Are we supposed to live our lives cowering for fear of a handful of Keystone cop-like terrorists.  Please.  We live like children hiding under the bed in fear of the boogeyman.  Look at what we have lost to this fear.  We have already lost the right to travel as we please in this country.  We have the TSA like a plague of locusts crawling all over our airports and apparently train stations molesting children.  Terrorists don't appear to be their focus unless terrorists wear the face of your grandmother or your neighbor or your baby or you.  It is simply disgusting.  And we will never be free of the Patriot Act.  I haven't believed in safety since I grew up.  There is no such thing and if someone tells you they can keep you safe you can be sure they are selling a bill of goods.  Getting out of bed in the morning is a dangerous proposition and there is no way of knowing if you will be around to crawl into it again come night.  I thought most adults understood this, accepted it, and found a way to live their lives in spite of it.  Gimme a break - terrorists - that is so last decade.  

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:23 | 1293115 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

In this war on terror, America has lost what it stood for; Freedom and American dream. This country is heading in a direction from where China and Russia are coming from.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:20 | 1293112 tmosley
tmosley's picture

BS. Ron Paul would have issued a letter of marque and every bounty hunter on the planet would have been after his head. Hell, it would be a new industry, as that is how he would take care of most threats from non-state actors.

NOT soft on terror. Just hard on those who take our freedoms.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 18:52 | 1293739 doggings
doggings's picture

hes not weak on the only terrorists that actually matter, the financial ones

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 18:56 | 1293747 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

What has he accomplished that you would call a win?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 20:36 | 1294009 crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

Getting the House to approve an audit on the Fed.  That was HUGE.  Now, we need to work on the Senate.  But that is a massive accomplishment. 

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 20:55 | 1294045 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Senate is controlled by Dems/Socialists still. What was accomplished besides side tracking the aware/hopeful?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 21:15 | 1294112 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture

+ + + +

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:18 | 1292523 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Two bidders make a market. One bidder makes it a shame market.

Does China produce Silver and Gold coins I can buy? Just trying to diversify my allegiances Wall Street style. It's just a business decision.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:19 | 1292545 Magnix
Magnix's picture

Hmmmm, I've not thought about that. Let me know what you find.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:26 | 1292583 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

So, what's your opinion of lead and tungsten Panda's as an alternative savings vehicle?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:30 | 1292607 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Just as long as I get more lead and tungsten then I would get in a comparable US PM coin I figure I'm ahead of the game.

Besides my new best girlfriend (China) would never do that to me. :>)

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:44 | 1292929 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

FYI, CD...   The U. S. Mint is seeking info from suppliers on a palladium Eagle coin.  H.R. 6166 was passed in both the House and Senate and signed into law by the President on December 14.  They are now getting around to getting some planchet supply in the pipeline.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:18 | 1293088 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

If I don't like the coin can I use it in my catalytic converter?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:56 | 1292737 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture


Looks to me like China has decided they really don't care about the Treasuries anymore.  One of the consequences of our trade deficit was, of course, the need for China to fund it through buying our debt.  But what else did China get?  Industrial capacity that it would have otherwise taken them generations to develop with only their internal markets.  Handed to them by Clinton on a goddamned silver platter.

Does China give a fuck about $1 Trillion in Treasuries?  Do we give a fuck about $1 Trillion?  Do we?  Obviously, nope, we don't.  What makes us think China does?  Their economy is, according to China's GDP on PPP basis is $9.872 trillion (2010 est.).  If we can print up $ 2 Trillion and stand it, so can they.


Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:13 | 1292793 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Does that mean I won't get any Gold or Silver Pandas? Dammit. I already bought the dummies guide on eBay. :>)

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:45 | 1292941 Miss Expectations
Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:18 | 1293099 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

LOL, now that is as good as Gold. Maybe even better.

What a BIG sneeze out of such a little baby. BTW I noticed mom didn't stop chewing.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:19 | 1292528 ivana
ivana's picture

It was reported in 2008 that Azerbaijan and Zimbabwe had placed orders for the aircraft and nine other countries, including Bangladesh, Myanmar, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia, Morocco, Nigeria, Sri Lanka and Algeria were showing interest....

3 years later think we can exclude Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, Lebanon ... Nigeria(?) ... Iran will not need those soon - who remains?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:19 | 1292529 breezer1
breezer1's picture

the only ones spared the tragedy and expense of war are the ones who start it, the bankers.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:18 | 1292536 ivana
ivana's picture

Whole bloody continent around Iran will soon be on fire.

Is that bullish for something? BTFD what?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:22 | 1292561 centerline
centerline's picture

long on oil, natural gas, etc.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:57 | 1292743 falak pema
falak pema's picture

its been on fire for sixty years, imperial fire, fed by USA... USA.

Now THAT fire is extinguishing itself as the USA is bankrupt; every day a US soldier  breathes, farts, shoots out there, its thanks to Chinese money borrowed by Uncle Sam...Think of that...It might help to understand the MONEY count.  They are saying now THAT game is over...It's time to wake up and realise; if the fire changes it will we fed by others : those who will build the NEW world order. That's the new ball game this is predicting...Brave new world of old illusions that in 1914... 

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:15 | 1293385 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Falak, give your head a shake.  Egypt just asked for a multi-Billion dollar loan from the world bank.  Who's going to pony up for that?  In the end it will be the American taxpayer.

Egypt (the middle east for that matter) hasn't got a pot to pee in.  They never have.  No one expects any great scientific disovery or sound business development from anyone out of the middle east.  No one but Israel.

Many millions will starve in the middle east because they would rather spend all political and taxpayer capital on beating on Israel.  It simply makes no sense, but it doesn't have too.  Studies show that the Middle East collectively has a low IQ.  They can't be taught.  They can only take, and whine.

Instead of always pointing at a bogey man, be like the Germans and build a future.

Everyone will be relieved in the change of direction.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:34 | 1293440 falak pema
falak pema's picture

What's your point? Mixing Egypt with Germany? What has the US done in sixty years in the ME? Except support dictators! What's your point? Because Egypt is back ward, it deserves getting raped?

Nobody needs the USA to progress. That's a pipe dream.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:42 | 1293520 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

The middle east has no future.  They are so busy fighting over what happened 2,000 years ago, they can't see the future for the past.  My point is that the middle east has no point.  The US is a bogey man.  The middle east always needs something to blame.  If it wasn't the US, it was Israel, or Britain, or Russia, or this or that.

The middle east is about to be raped by their own people.  That is what they do.  That is what they have always done.  If anyone steps in to help, they receive the scorn for the loss of face bacause help had to be offered.

The people of the middle east are about to starve because they can't help themselves.  The rest of the world will simply watch.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 18:37 | 1293692 falak pema
falak pema's picture

They lost fifty years as puppets in the cold war exploited by the US, they may lose another fifty to earn a sense of freedom. But they will get there. The wheel always turns for every nation. Its just a question of wanting it enough. And they will from force of sacrifice...

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 18:50 | 1293729 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Guess what... they are going to lose the next 50 also because their best and brightest will want to emigrate to someplace western.  Once the cream has been skimmed, the remainder will pray to Allah for deliverence from the evil Jews...

They aren't smart enough to help themselves...

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 20:55 | 1294044 Peter_Griffin
Peter_Griffin's picture

Hopefully the ones who stay behind to live a life of self sufficiency will have enough funds to mail care packages to their "brighter" conterparts when the bubbles start bursting.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:02 | 1292762 Sophist Economicus
Sophist Economicus's picture

United Technologies acquired Kidde fire extinguisher business...

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:44 | 1292951 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Civilians should really experience the wonder of Purple K, so much more suppression per pound than CO2 or MAP, and none of that no-staining/no-residue BS.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:21 | 1292538 UGrev
UGrev's picture

BFF's Bitches!

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:22 | 1292546 Ben Graham Redux
Ben Graham Redux's picture

The Chinese will quickly learn that Pakistan's allegiance doesn't stay bought for long.  Besides, is the JF-17 even a good plane?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:26 | 1292571 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

You think they don't know that?

Like all chess moves with the exception of checkmate, it's a transitory move.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:24 | 1292574 centerline
centerline's picture

"made in China" stamped on it somewhere I am sure.  LOL.  That just makes me laugh.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:41 | 1292646 spartan117
spartan117's picture

Yeah, it's all fun and games until they get better and better at it.  You might laugh, but your kids and/or grandkids should probably worry.  Unless, of course, the US starts a war ASAP to knock em back a a century or two.  Either way, I don't see how this is funny.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:46 | 1292684 Ben Graham Redux
Ben Graham Redux's picture

Maybe you should sell a little gold and buy yourself a sense of humor - it's badly needed.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:08 | 1292784 spartan117
spartan117's picture

Sorry, need to save my gold coins for my weekly visits with your mom at the ranch.


How's that for humor?

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:24 | 1292855 Ben Graham Redux
Ben Graham Redux's picture

My mom is riddled with cancer and doesn't have much longer.  That means your former gold coins will soon be mine.  Funny how a little perspective can make you feel better.  Thanks!

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:41 | 1292925 boricuadigm-shift
boricuadigm-shift's picture

I hope you were following along.  If not, I hope she gets well soon or leaves this life without suffering and in peace.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:50 | 1292964 Ben Graham Redux
Ben Graham Redux's picture

Thanks boricuadigm-shift.  The bad news is that it will be very painful which is why our best case scenario is something quick like a massive heart attack.  That's why I wasn't kidding about the other poster buying a sense of humor - it's priceless during these times.  I greatly appreciate your sentiments. 

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:01 | 1293332 trav7777
trav7777's picture

there are pills you can take for that

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:25 | 1293449 Ben Graham Redux
Ben Graham Redux's picture

LOL - unfortunately, she's Catholic!!!

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:50 | 1292704 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

When the US was sane, we demanded unconditional surrender.

Any other option just means your children have to finish the war, and with even more destructive weapons.

Knocking Afghanistan back to the stone age only knocks them back about a decade. They have little to lose.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:44 | 1292948 falak pema
falak pema's picture

you can only demand unconditional surrender from an enemy who has lost...Show me where the USA has won a war since WW2 on complete basis, w/o local resistance, even present in Iraq today...Nobody wants to surrender when they still believe they are Che Guevara's ghost incarnated. No amount of technology can kill that...remember Spartacus...

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:23 | 1293043 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

"Limited war" is the con.

Never agree to fight in one.

Total war to the death of one side, or flee to a neutral country. The lessons of Viet Nam are clear.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:39 | 1293193 SoNH80
SoNH80's picture

Viet Nam went communist, and nothing happened.  We should leave Afghanistan to the goatherders and the goats, we are spending WAY too much money trying to teach monkeys how to ride bicycles over there.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:48 | 1293230 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Lol, Communist Vietnam won the war of liberation from the colonialist predators (France, USA) and lost the peace as it was useless in governance. The wheel turns and people learn on their own.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:24 | 1293448 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

They won by default.

And now they are all dirt poor peasants with no hope. Good plan.

Useful idiots deserve no compassion.

The world is better off if they go through a chipper and become fertilizer.

Fuck you, you socialist destroyers.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:28 | 1293465 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Hey man, I'm not Vietnamien. Neither are you! So get off their backs and let them live for themselves. And stop shouting slogans you don't even understand, like a brainwashed poodle.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 17:38 | 1293504 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

I understand them. I've seen them in action. First hand. Boots on the ground.

I hate them, because they lead to misery for all. Get some time outside the tourist areas of even Europe.

Socialism is a tool of evil.


Thu, 05/19/2011 - 18:32 | 1293682 falak pema
falak pema's picture

If you've known've known where the US lost its soul...amen to you.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 18:42 | 1293707 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

The US lost its soul with the War on Poverty and the death of the family structure.

The exclamation point was abortion.

We no longer deserve to survive, but I still want to love my homeland.

It is schizophrenic making times.

Some of you are right the US deserves to die, but wrong on why. Crazy making.

I must defend it until is dies of self-inflicted wounds. I cannot become its enemy.

I must hope it finds its way before the end.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 19:37 | 1293854 SoNH80
SoNH80's picture

I'm no socialist.  I'm a believer in limited government.  What business do we have dictating to primitives how to live?  Did you ever read Jefferson, or only Rambo comic books?  Fuck YOU, douche.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 19:44 | 1293866 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Until Bush the Younger, only socialists gave you limited war. But, he was yet another Ivy League traitor.

We shouldn't dictate to primitives how to live. We should simply let them know that fucking with us, or harboring those who fuck with us leads to total destruction.

Good enough.

Otherwise, rock on your crazy Islamomaniacs.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 15:44 | 1292943 centerline
centerline's picture

Guess you havent had your share of cheap Chinese crap made by slave labor.  Lighten up there master chief!  I am as worried about what you wrote as you are.  No doubt.  But, at the same time the notion of a lower cost Chinese fighter conjures the image of a jet yanked into a high g turn and wing popping off due to faulty materials.

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:41 | 1293171 thriftymost
thriftymost's picture

What you may not know, Center, is that the Chinese--surprise, surprise!--make stuff to order.

A single mid- to large-sized factory in Zhejiang or Guangdong province will run multiple assembly lines manufacturing goods differing very greatly in quality, catering to multiple clients.

A guy calls from Walmart, in the States, asking said factory to produce item x as quickly and as cheaply as possible.  The Chinese oblige, cranking up assembly line number one.

A buyer in Germany calls five minutes later demanding the same item--a hammer, let's say, or a clarinet--but insisting upon top-notch quality for his higher-paying clientele.

Crank up assembly line number two. 

America orders junk and then blames China for delivering.

Ha ha, America--joke's on you. 


Thu, 05/19/2011 - 16:41 | 1293213 SoNH80
SoNH80's picture

So it is true!  We in the U.S. really do get the real shit!  Well, glad that you guys could leverage the gross stupidity of our "leadership", Zhou Enlai was a pretty smart dude, as smart as Nixon was stupid.  Gan bei!

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 14:29 | 1292593 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

they have to pay for their ghost towns - if you were a pilot how would you feel about made in china?

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