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Stop Trading

Tyler Durden's picture




One trader's (to be named as XXX) attempts to understand why his money has to go straight to the big banks' top line following a DDRX buy in courtesy of Interactive Brokers. The following is the record of the chat session that transpired minutes ago.

ChatSys: This chat is associated with ticket #809621. Please record this number for use in future inquiries. You are currently in room 'General '.
Aimee: Hello, this is Aimee, how can I help you?
XXX: Hello, I am going to get a buy in on my account of ddrx shares, on 90 mins notice
XXX: I am going to take a big loss on this forced buy in and i am not happy about it
Aimee: Please let me transfer you to our trade group
ChatSys: Transferring ChatSession from 'General ' to 'Trade Problems'
ChatSys: Megan C has joined the chat.
Megan C: Hello, this is 'meganc'. How may I help you?
XXX: I am getting abuy in on ddrx at a nice loss
Megan C: I apologize for the transfer. Unfortunately, we have no further details about the potential buy-in other than what is already stated in the notification you were sent.
Megan C: Remember that when you short stock, you are at risk for being bought in at any time, with or without notice.
XXX: Where is that notice?
Megan C: the notice you received warning you of the potential buy-in.
Megan C: NOTICE OF POSSIBLE BUY-IN Based upon information available through 14:30 today, we remain unable to locate and borrow / re-borrow the shares necessary to meet delivery obligations on certain short stock positions in your account. As current SEC regulations now strictly enforce delivery obligations, these short stock positions will be subject to forced buy-in by IB should our continued efforts to borrow or re-borrow the necessary shares today be unsuccessful. A list of stocks in your account UXXXXXX that may be at risk to a forced buy-in, based on current settlement information is provided below. You may wish to consider repurchasing your position(s) in these stocks in order to control your portfolio/risk at any time prior to the end of the current regular trading session (16:00 EST). Transactions occurring after 16:00 cannot be considered against the delivery obligation. DDRX (500 shares) As noted above, we will continue to make every effort to locate and borrow the shares necessary to allow you to maintain these short positions, however, given the limited time available in the current trading session we will be unable to provide any further updates as to your account status until delivery of your daily activity statement. Please refer to the following web page and the related tabs detailing various operational details for additional information: http://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/trading/shortableStocks.php Interactive Brokers Risk Management
Megan C: that notice.
XXX: You were not able to locate the borrow for two weeks????
XXX: Were you selling shares that you did not have a chance of borrowing?
Megan C: Sir, please review our buy-in procedures and policies located on our website www.interactivebrokers.com---->trading--->shortable stocks. I understand your frustration, however, when you short stock you are at risk for being bought in at anytime. We are having difficulty locating the stock to borrow today and that is why you received this notice. Our policy is outlined in detail on the link above
XXX: I am not talking about today. The rules are very specific about stock lending.
XXX: Lending a stock that you do not have is naked short selling
XXX: And I am not the one who should be taking this loss if you are selling stocks that you do not have.
Megan C: If you have a compliant about our buy in procedures or our lending practices, feel free to voice those through a problem ticket from account management--->message center. In regards to the notice, that does stand at this time so please manage any risk you have with this potential buy in as you see fit.
XXX: The settlement rules are promulgated by the SEC, not account management. You do not have an unlimited amount of time to locate a borrow.
XXX: The stock has been run up in the time that had sold it.
XXX: And because you lent shares that you did not have a chance to borrow, in violation of SEC rules, I am taking a loss.
Megan C: Yes, I am aware of where the rules are determined. I stated that if you have a complaint regarding how IB handles the buy-in procedures, the best venue to voice that would be through a ticket from account management.
XXX: I have one hour before you give me a nice trading loss. I do not have time to go to account management tickets.
XXX: Correct htat, I have 34 minutes.
Megan C: The buy-in notice stands, that is not something that will be rescinded and you need to manage the risk associated with that as you see fit.

XXX: I will contact the SEC, as well as Chris Dodd at Senate Banking and the office of Barnery Frank at the House. Ok?
XXX: You lent shares that you did not have and that you did not have a resonable chance to borrow. That is naked short selling.
Megan C: Once again, this notice still stands and you need to manage any risk associated with that as you see fit. If you want to file a complaint regarding this feel free to do so through a problem ticket. Our buy in procedure and lending practices are outlined in DETAIL on the link provided in the notification as well as in the link I provided above. The practices and buy in procedures are all in line with the SEC rules regarding delivery put in place in 2008. If you have any additional questions or complaints, feel free to send in a problem ticket. Please manage the risk as you see fit
ChatSys: This chat session is being terminated by the CSR




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Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:30 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:32 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:37 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:37 | Link to Comment quant-this
quant-this's picture

That is why I stopped using them and why I avoid any non-limit transactions on ICE.

 

I had a fantastic options position ahead of a Fed meeting and the play worked out just like I wanted. However, it was a fast market and at one point the bid was higher than the offer. I had a huge profit and decided that I wasnt going to be greedy and get even if it meant getting some of that profit taken by either an IB market maker (largest options market maker around) or anyone else on ICE. I hit a market sell and all of a sudden saw a huge loss. They gave me a price that was completely not in line with anything quoted or related to the underlying security.

 

I complained, they pretended to talk to ICE officials and then told me that I should not have hit market in a fast market and it was my fault. I closed my account, moved my options trading to ThinkorSwim and my algorithmic trading elsewhere with customizable APIs).

 

But hey, they have very good serious ads on CNBC so that is a plus. 

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:38 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:56 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:39 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:18 | Link to Comment Lets_Eat_Amen
Lets_Eat_Amen's picture

i don't see how you can forecast that.  Nothing like this has been viewed in the entirety of our history so it's impossible to say that it'll crash immediately.....although its champagne on me if it happens ....come on SRS!

But besides that, the short opportunities are fantasies at this point.  tyler is right with "stop trading"...nothing makes sense.  I'm about to close out some shorts, say fcuk you wallstreet, and even looked at becoming a canadian yesterday. 

 

But when it all does end, i'll be dancing in the streets, kissing babies, and crying all at the same time.

 

...i think Holden Caulfield's nervous breakdown was something similar to that, right?

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 17:11 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 19:20 | Link to Comment Lets_Eat_Amen
Lets_Eat_Amen's picture

hmm...too bad, i've known some cool Canadians in my travels.     ....well, to Argentina then...the mouth of the beast!!     ...at least the women are beautiful

Sat, 07/18/2009 - 00:36 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:39 | Link to Comment gramps
gramps's picture

I am net short and received a margin call yesterday. Normally when I exceed margin requirements I get an email a day or two later. Yesterday, minutes after I exceeded my margin requirement, I received 2 emails and a phone call from TD Ameritrade. It was very strange. Could this short covering rally be brought on by the SEC? Or even worse could the brokerages be in on this manipulation.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:54 | Link to Comment doerr
doerr's picture

... and now that TDAmeritrade owns TOS ...

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:40 | Link to Comment demsco
demsco's picture

State Street has been a bitch about loaning shares. This will ocntinue as the government needs the market to be propped up to show they "fix" the problem. This is why some banks were allowed to pay back TARP and others were not. Also, the warrant purchases were reduced as part of a deal, IMHO, to maintain the same state control as was in effect during full TARP conditions.

 

Our markets are anything other than free right now. This is one little step for many, but one giant step for socialism.

 

 

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:46 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:52 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:21 | Link to Comment Lets_Eat_Amen
Lets_Eat_Amen's picture

i think that's what happened in Argentina.  The state seized retirement accounts to "save" them, though the speculation is that they're bankrupt and needed that as a source for funding. 

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:31 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 17:44 | Link to Comment Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

Classic

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:45 | Link to Comment slore
slore's picture

my borrowable inventory is tight right now, i can only get ahold of 200 measly shares :|

if this gets pursued would IB have to show proof they were responsible in the lending of shares the day of?

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:48 | Link to Comment agrotera
agrotera's picture

Better send this conversation to Patrick Byrne and the crew at deepcapture.com.

Chris Dodd...how hopeless it is to send anything that matters to this puppet.  

...what a racket. 

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:58 | Link to Comment VegasBD
VegasBD's picture

Yea I thought that was funny too....who would threaten someone by namedropping Chris Dodd of all people.

 

If peter schiff gets his seat and boots dodd out.....now THEN that would be a credible threat!!!!

 

 

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:19 | Link to Comment troublesum
troublesum's picture

I dontated to schiffforsenate.com... I cant change the world but i can help the ones that can.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 23:10 | Link to Comment agrotera
agrotera's picture

Schiff needs to get elected but while he is at it, get some other do gooders with scruples (who can't be bought) to run and oust all the other bank puppets who voted for TARP!!!! We need to take back our republic and with hope, Schiff is one to start the process.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:51 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:26 | Link to Comment Lets_Eat_Amen
Lets_Eat_Amen's picture

MAR is fuked.  I work in revenue for a hospitality company....black fucking holes are out there enveloping the industry right now.  Calculated Risk posts the most recent RevPAR numbers by Smith Travel & Research, from which I can say that an 18% average loss in revenue put almost any hotel company in red.  Hotels will be sold off in mass starting this winter.  Once the in season is over and owners realize that the little that they are gleaning is squandered after RevPAR drops again in the offseason, defaults will be soring.  This just in by Smith Travel:

 

 

STR drastically reduces hotel revenue forecast for '09

TravelWeekly.com / 7 Jul 2009 / By Jeri Clausing

 

Citing heavy rate discounting, STR released an updated and unusually bleak forecast for the U.S. hotel industry for the rest of 2009. STR, known to be among the more optimistic industry forecasters, expects revenue per available room (RevPAR) to drop 17.1% this year. STR’s previous revised forecast in April suggested the industry’s RevPAR for 2009 would be down 9.8%. 

 

While a number of factors contributed to the drastic revision, STR President Mark Lomanno said steep discounting tops the list. "It is disappointing, surprising and a little bit sad," Lomanno said. "One of the things we felt was that the industry would hold pricing more than it’s been able to. "If you’re looking at the last downturns, a lot of the commentary that we heard from the brands and the revenue managers is that they learned their lessons in 2001-2002 and they would be able to react better the next time around. For whatever reason, maybe because this downturn is so severe and so dramatic and so different than they were expecting, what they learned they weren’t able to apply. "Whatever the reason was or [however] it transpired that way, the decline in pricing is more dramatic than it’s ever been, more than we thought it would be, indeed more than we think it should be," he added. 

 

STR also downgraded its forecast because normal economic factors haven’t rebounded the way STR had anticipated and because of many recent hotel openings, Lomanno said. STR projects that at the end of 2009, supply will be up 3%, demand will be down 5.5%, occupancy will decline 8.4% and average daily rate will drop 9.7%.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:52 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:57 | Link to Comment gramps
gramps's picture

It says right in the chat. It wasn't a margin call. The shares were never borrowed. It was a naked short.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:00 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:14 | Link to Comment 3Gonads
3Gonads's picture

 please, never short a stock. clearly you don't have a clue .

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 17:32 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:57 | Link to Comment Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh's picture

I don't think you're familiar with a "buy-in" versus a "margin call".  There's more than enough detail provided in the first few paragraphs.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:02 | Link to Comment Buttercup
Buttercup's picture

500 Shares on a $18 stock.  The margin requirement would have $13,500.  He states that they should have borrowed the shares 2 weeks ago.  I'm looking at the charts, and I conservatiely come to a $1.50 a share loss, not exactly a big deal, since the amount of the loss was well covered in the amount of margin that he would have put up for this trade. 

My question is that she keeps referring to the lending practices of IB, and perhaps there in lies the answer to his problem of them forcing a buy on his account.  If someone could review that, perhaps there is langauge in there that gives IB a pre-determined time frame to find the shares to borrow.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:17 | Link to Comment Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh's picture

It's up to their P&S department to have the shares by settlement, at the latest (supposedly with proof of lender & time).  If they still don't, it's reported as a fail.  That would then hit NSCC (aka DTCC).  There are various amounts of fails you (well, your clearing firm - unless you self-clear - and they most likely have many other firms like IB) can have outstanding at any one time without having to be bought-in, per the Regulators.  Who they choose to force to fix their fails... that's another story.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:53 | Link to Comment Stuart
Stuart's picture

absolute bastards they are..

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:54 | Link to Comment gramps
gramps's picture

I had a thought. Could this be a conspiracy to facilitate a forced short covering rally to free up shares for the big boys to short.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:59 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:59 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:04 | Link to Comment Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh's picture

All it takes is someone with good access to the NSCC CNS system.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 20:57 | Link to Comment agrotera
agrotera's picture

vomit time

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:30 | Link to Comment Lets_Eat_Amen
Lets_Eat_Amen's picture

that occurred to me as well.  i've been questioning the strength and quality of the volume recently.  Shorts have been obliterated, how much more short positions are left?

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:58 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 15:58 | Link to Comment Undertaker (not verified)
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:01 | Link to Comment Oso
Oso's picture

ladies and gents, lets take a step back from the conspiracy theories for one moment and think of other explanations.  One that comes to mind is this:  banks/financials are desperately trying to deleverage.  what are the easiest ways to do this in a hurry?  well, it seems to me that cutting securities lending is a great way to do just that, and fast.

 

maybe this is malicious, but i think it is giving far too much credit to the powers that be, and other more rational explanations fit.

Sat, 07/18/2009 - 02:13 | Link to Comment Counterparty (not verified)
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:04 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:07 | Link to Comment jym
jym's picture

Yeah i've gotten to where i just buy calls and puts on index ETFs and i try not to hold anything overnight.

Crazy times to be in the market

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:12 | Link to Comment 3Gonads
3Gonads's picture

 Once again,  tin foil hat stuff. Misrepresenting the facts.

 

 I feel for xxx, but if the share's are called back by the lender, there is nothing the broker can do.

 

 This is the risk of shorting.  If you can't handle that , BUY PUTS.

 

  I don't like buy ins any more than the next guy, but as long as there is no 'conspiracy' on the part of the broker, you're bitching at the wrong moon.

 

 

 

 

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:40 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 22:06 | Link to Comment aka_ces
aka_ces's picture

"Buy PUTS" -- that's what I'm thinking, too, but then I start wondering if things are so rigged that these too will be subject to some sort of roadblock.

As I am far away from the mechanisms of market making, please someone answer whether it is possible to get rooked while holding in-the-money puts.  I would think not, but not much would surprise me….

And, what about short calls ? -- logically, another bearish alternative, and distinguishable from the underlying, but nevertheless my question applies to them also.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:11 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:12 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:16 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 17:05 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:22 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:24 | Link to Comment 3Gonads
3Gonads's picture

 In all fairness, there is something odd about some of these buy ins.

 

 DDRX is, as of today  (now) AVAILABLE to short at IB.

 

  I don't know why that is ,or if XXX would actually have been bought in or not.

  It's a touchy issue that should get clarified.

 

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:34 | Link to Comment Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh's picture

My bet would be that IB had an oustanding fail associated with his trade, and someone never bothered to clean it up.  Too much time passed and a deadline was put down from another department.

 

They can say that the stock is available to borrow, but that's just advertising what NSCC is showing to IB (probably).  When they didn't have the right sequence of approvals, and no one was willing to make an exception for Mr. XXX's account, they would rather just close it out before it hits the next level of reporting - rather than go borrow the shares available now and try to justify the breech of sequence at higher internal levels.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:27 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:29 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:29 | Link to Comment X on the MTA
X on the MTA's picture

unless you are getting a short rebate you should be playing synthetics anyways...

 

and don't even try to tell me that the B/A spread is goingto kill you or that there's topo big a PUT CALL disparity in pricing because then i'll have to send your ass to read about put-call parity.

 

If hedging the delta of an option and susequently hedging the vega and gamma are not second-nature to you then you have no business trading... well, at least not if you want to make money.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:36 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:37 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 16:46 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 17:12 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 17:15 | Link to Comment 1TAAT
1TAAT's picture

They had the shares at the time of the borrow. But since, those shares are being called back by the long position to sell. Thats all, not that complicated. The issue for the trader is, you need to know that ahead of any swing short, that you are always in danger of this. Also, no offense, but he might need to review his stop policy. This market changed on Monday morning, not Friday afternoon. Good luck to all, this market won't go down until GS says so.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 17:33 | Link to Comment Miles Kendig
Miles Kendig's picture

Anyone that attempts to interact with the so called "markets" in the United States and many other countries must consider that the "rules" do not exist and all of the funds placed in those markets is at risk from the actions of the so called market makers.  Why on earth would anyone put money to work in a corrupt marketplace?

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 17:43 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 18:00 | Link to Comment poydras
poydras's picture

The chat session explains nothing beyond their standard buy-in language.  You need to determine short sale share availabilty leading up to your notice.  Consider yourself lucky you had two weeks.  That indicates that they were able to find the shares temporarily.  The answer to where the available shares went is another question altogether.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 18:01 | Link to Comment dnarby
dnarby's picture

Solution:

 

Cover, then reshort immediately.  If you can't short it, then short a competitor.

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 18:01 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 19:00 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 19:06 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 19:36 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 19:20 | Link to Comment No More Bubbles
No More Bubbles's picture

It means the stock is about to collapse and they don't want to pay the shorts.

I had this happen to me years ago on a short.  I asked if I purchased the stock if I could lend the shares I just bought to myself and they said no.  The whole game is a pathetic rigged joke of a scam.

It's all part of the continued criminal organization known as Wall Street. 

 

 

Sat, 07/18/2009 - 02:20 | Link to Comment Counterparty (not verified)
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 19:33 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 19:38 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 21:02 | Link to Comment agrotera
agrotera's picture

Anyone have feedback about interactive brokers you wouldn't mind sharing? 

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 21:12 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Fri, 07/17/2009 - 23:02 | Link to Comment agrotera
agrotera's picture

thank you!

Fri, 07/17/2009 - 22:13 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sat, 07/18/2009 - 03:24 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Sun, 07/19/2009 - 08:07 | Link to Comment Anonymous
Mon, 07/20/2009 - 12:37 | Link to Comment Anonymous
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