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Stratfor: Japan Government Confirms Meltdown

Tyler Durden's picture




 

From Stratfor:

Japan’s Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said March 12
that the explosion at the Fukushima Daiichi No. 1 nuclear plant could
only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core, Japanese daily
Nikkei reported. This statement seemed somewhat at odds with Japanese
Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano’s comments earlier March 12, in
which he said “the walls of the building containing the reactor were
destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not
explode.”

NISA’s statement is significant because it is the government agency
that reports to the Agency for Natural Resources and Energy within the
Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. NISA works in conjunction with
the Atomic Energy Commission. Its role is to provide oversight to the
industry and is responsible for signing off construction of new plants,
among other things. It has been criticized for approving nuclear plants
on geological fault lines and for an alleged conflict of interest in
regulating the nuclear sector. It was NISA that issued the order for the
opening of the valve to release pressure — and thus allegedly some
radiation — from the Fukushima power plant.

NISA has also overseen the entire government response to the nuclear
reactor problems following the Tohoku earthquake and tsunami. It is
difficult to determine at this point whether the NISA statement is
accurate, as the Nikkei report has not been corroborated by others. It
is also not clear from the context whether NISA is stating the
conclusions of an official assessment or simply making a statement.
However, the Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO), the operator of the
Fukushima nuclear plant, also said that although it had relieved
pressure, nevertheless some nuclear fuel had melted and further action
was necessary to contain the pressure.

If this report is accurate, it would not be the first time statements
by NISA and Edano have diverged. When Edano earlier claimed that
radiation levels had fallen at the site after the depressurization
efforts, NISA claimed they had risen due to the release of radioactive
vapors

 

 

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Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:47 | 1045376 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

I figured as much. The back and forth of was it a meltdown or something else has probably cost many people their lives. This keeps getting ugly.

Will Japan trade tomorrow?

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:47 | 1045377 Instant Karma
Instant Karma's picture

Tyler this is all confusing. How does he building housing a nuclear reactor "explode" unrelated to damage to the primary containment or the core. Is it that the radioactive gas held in by the building is rich in hydrogen, and that detonated? But where did the hydrogen gas come from if not the core and primary containment? So if primary containment is still intact, you've got a reactor in a steel jar just sitting out in the open? I'm confused.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:49 | 1045380 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

I think it was obvious to experts with explosion and high radiation levels it melted thru the core.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:15 | 1045827 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 He, he, he. think again. What you call thinking is imputing your favorite solution to an imaginary expert, and thereby validating it. Apitiful process.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 01:03 | 1045930 whatsinaname
whatsinaname's picture

9-11, 3-11..

whats with 11 ?

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 04:22 | 1046129 Mentaliusanything
Mentaliusanything's picture

You should worry more about the Ides of March. 15th of March

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:54 | 1045382 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

5 Reasons to Use Hallucinogens

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv-EGWiRcSE

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:13 | 1045652 walcott
walcott's picture

lmao

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:22 | 1045679 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

+5 and one for yoru Avaatar Rusty. 

I trust Africa seems like an ocean of calm right now?

ORI

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:27 | 1045848 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

Drop acid for cluister headaches? hahahaha!

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 11:43 | 1046472 Newsboy
Newsboy's picture

Using hallucinogens teaches you about what your mind can do, that it doesn't usually do. I found that very useful, and have used peyote in a Native American Church ceremony in 1994, that freed me completely from the desire to drink alcohol or smoke pot. Those 7 hours changed me, by eliminating my addictive patterns.

As Faron Young used to say about BC Powder, "It's STRONG MEDICINE".

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 12:06 | 1046512 snowball777
snowball777's picture

I've had hundreds of good trips with them, but that doesn't change the fact that 'NeuroSoup' is one of the dumbest bimbettes on planet earth and no one from whom to take advice about entheogens of any kind.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:08 | 1045812 whisperin
whisperin's picture

IK, go to market-ticker.org and you'll see Karl wrote a good piece with a description of the chemistry involved.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 02:19 | 1046035 baconator3000
baconator3000's picture

Carl deniger is a blithering idiot. Him and his 3 forum postets

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 02:30 | 1046048 Quantum Nucleonics
Quantum Nucleonics's picture

Hydrogen spontaneously disassociates from water molecules at around 2500C.  What probably happened/is happening is the overheated core is generating hydrogen gas.  When they vented steam from the containment vessel to reduce the pressure, it contained hydrogen gas.  The hydrogen would spontaneously explode on contact with air.  The hydrogen explosion destroyed the building, but the reactor vessel itself is likely still intact.  Explosion was inside the building, but outside the reactor vessel. Though it seems probable that the uranium dioxide fuel pellets have at least partially melted.  If enough pools on the bottom of the reactor vessel, it will melt through the bottom, triggering a much larger explosion as the reactor vessel fails.  Exposed to air, the superheated interior or the reactor will ignite (even steel and concrete burn if hot enough), while the molten uranium will burn through the concrete into the ground.  Since the explosion probably destroyed what remains of the coolant system, failure of the reactor vessel seems a foregone conclusion.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 10:23 | 1046381 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

The hydrogen explosion destroyed the building, but the reactor vessel itself is likely still intact.

- - - - - - - - -

From what we could see yesterday, and examining the sketches and illustrative drawings of the GE Mark I reactor, the top of the building *only* blew off, this top portion, non-reinforced, housed the crane that sits upon a couple of rails and is used to move fuel, equipment around ...

,

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:48 | 1045378 fragrantdingleberry
fragrantdingleberry's picture

What happens now?

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:09 | 1045410 serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

We all get to watch while the situation grows progressively worse. These unusually large seismic events are clearly increasing in periodicity. I'm anticipating at least an 8.5 event or greater someplace within the Pacific ring of fire sometime within the next two weeks.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:12 | 1045817 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 Will you pay me $10,000 if no 8.5 event occurrs? You're just another example of female logic; you belive what makes you feel good; there is no connection to reality whatsoever.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:30 | 1045859 serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

I'll bet you a silver eagle. I'm good for it.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:50 | 1045379 Instant Karma
Instant Karma's picture

What does "feeding the ducks" mean? I'm picking up twitter chatter than Friday was feeding the ducks for a Monday slaughter. Does feeding the ducks mean keeping the market steady and calm prior to a big short onslaught?

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:58 | 1045390 Dr Hackenbush
Dr Hackenbush's picture

I'll bite: feed the ducks means to sell

while they are still quacking...

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 12:07 | 1045983 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Think foie gras.

Gotta get them livers nice and fatty before ze kill, mon frere.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:21 | 1045434 Biff Malibu
Biff Malibu's picture

ducks=uninformed investors

feed the ducks=sell them stock while they're still stupid enough to buy it...don't wait for ma and pa mainstreet to turn their nose up at the market

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:41 | 1045497 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I bought gold stocks on the last drop! I'll quack for that.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:42 | 1045877 Dr Hackenbush
Dr Hackenbush's picture

wow alternate universe, what timeline are you on? uninformed investors?  We always feed the ducks before the technicals fail - or the news cycle changes.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:50 | 1045381 Victorio
Victorio's picture

the walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode.”

Yeah, that makes no sense...  

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:57 | 1045388 FunkyMonkeyBoy
FunkyMonkeyBoy's picture

You clearly don't understand. They're using the new physics normal that was discovered on 9/11. Buildings collapse into their own footprint at free-fall speed because of fire and now buildings explode at high speed because their walls collapse.

Stop using your brain.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:30 | 1045448 snakebrain
snakebrain's picture

Neither of you understand.

 

The reactor is in a metal (6" thick steel) sarcophagus, surrounded by a building that  basically enclosed the reactor assembly and keeps the rain off it. So, the building above can be destroyed but the reactor remain intact. It's obviously not good news either way..

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:35 | 1045466 Instant Karma
Instant Karma's picture

I get that part. So...why did the building explode?

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:57 | 1045569 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

There were initially 2 possibilities: 

The concrete outer structure (building) could have exploded as a result of excessive steam pressure due to overheating. The steam contains some radioactivity but usually not lethal doses and fall out minimal. 

But what was clear to the trained eye was that the pattern of explosion was probably caused by the exploding steel inner containment vessel which surrounds the core. When that happens there is large amounts of gamma radiation spreading circumferentially and there is lots of fallout in the atmosphere. Just like a nuclear bomb. The radiation doses are very easy to calculate as a function of distance away from the reactor. This only happens when the fission reaction was allowed to get out of control. It will glow for a long time to come. Could have secondary explosions too

 

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:04 | 1045800 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 You're a complete idiot. It was a hydrogen-air explosion. There's nothing wrong with reactor vessel or the containment, or the core. Mindless freaks like you are a terrible provocation for the technically illiterate to "emote". Basically, there;s nothing happening. ie. in the 1880's hundreds and hundreds of people were killed in boiler explosions as the steam power age matured; no-one was crazy enough to object to steam power as a result.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:48 | 1045892 majia
majia's picture

Is IQ 145 a regular at zerohedge? I always read comments and haven't seen his before, though I've been reading for a couple of years.

His comments remind me a lot of the comments by the oil industry fraudsters after the Gulf Oil Spill. Those fraudsters disappeared from the comments after Tyler stopped posting about the spill...

I'm not saying a doomsday scenario is correct but it seems to me that IQ 145 is trying too hard....

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 03:03 | 1046072 DollarMenu
DollarMenu's picture

He's been showing up lately to drop snarky comments and

adds little to conversation besides an interjection of self-importance.

 

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 07:27 | 1046220 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

"His comments remind me a lot of the comments by the oil industry fraudsters after the Gulf Oil Spill. "

Agreed.  It's sock puppet city up in here.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:02 | 1045584 snakebrain
snakebrain's picture

As far as I can gather, there was probably a build-up of hydrogen gas in the enclosed space above the reactor. Presumably something to do with the venting process though I'm not a nuclear physicist. Good info in this discussion...

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/g2mv1/iama_nuclear_engineer_amalmo...

 

"The explosion could have been caused by a number of events. Certain nuclear processes will generate hydrogen through what is essentially electrolysis of the coolant. That hydrogen needs to be either recombined with oxygen in a controlled fashion or vented safely. The cooling issues can theoretically exacerbate this issue.

Hydrogen is also used in the generator itself to increase the efficiency due to reduced friction (windage). The generator seal could have been damaged in the earthquake, and a slow hydrogen leak could have created an explosive environment in the powerhouse. This would be unrelated to the cooling issues."

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:20 | 1045675 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

The hydrogen gas story may have been just a cover. The containment vessel could have blown as a result fo excessive heat from an uncontrolled fission reaction. They've already admitted that the fuel rods were at least half uncovered by coolant

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:37 | 1045724 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 It was a hydrogen-air explosion in the building; it had no impact or significance for the reactor containment, or the reactor vessel itself; this was most probably the result of paranoia bout insignificant levels of gaseoius radiation products that would have no effect on public health were they vented. Keeping the building closed; an operatng decision; allowed hydrogen to build up to a level where it could be detonated by  an ignition source. All of the problems that this power plant has are the result of poor operating decisions; there are no public health issues; this will be yet another media event. The automatic shut-down upon detection of earth movement, was a major mistake; the human operators can shut down the plant in a more gentle and controlled manner if this is indeed necessary. The Diesel Standby power source started and then tripped off line; why ? is crucial to improving operational reliabilty.. there's is nothing wrong with the containment vessel or the reactor vessvessvedddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:45 | 1045879 VisualCSharp
VisualCSharp's picture

You're in Japan right now, looking at the reactor firsthand?

Yeah, I thought not.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:04 | 1045804 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 This is correct; the wonderful thing about the internet is that you always have to keep in mind that the totally ignorant typists will be there to insist that the reactor vessel "exploded" etc. etc.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 02:35 | 1046054 Quantum Nucleonics
Quantum Nucleonics's picture

Hydrogen spontaneously breaks free of water molecules at around 2500C.  It would have ignited on contact with the air when they vented steam to reduce pressure in the reactor vessel.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 10:27 | 1046384 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

Junked on account of spurious, gratuitous mention of 9-11-2001 event  having nothing at all to do with this event in the minds of rational men ...

 

 

.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:06 | 1045406 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

It is at the very least Three Mile Island.

It will not be Chernobyl. Different design?

However.

There are a lot more reactors on site.

Downplaying the significance of this, as some not you, are doing is suspicious.

 

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:17 | 1045429 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Hello no show. Enlighten me. I'm enjoying the afternoon.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:40 | 1045737 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 I'm not going to waste any more time trying to educate engineering illiterates who are passionately devoted to "terrible problems". In time you will see that there is nothing to see here; there is no consequence, no public health concern; perhaps you will question your media provider next time; and I do mean Zero Hedge,who is exactly as guilty as the "main stream medium" in selling "page clicks per disaster" as  ABC.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:57 | 1045786 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

I appreciate your attempts to educate.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:58 | 1045788 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

is being smarter than everyone else a disability or a gift?

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:19 | 1045835 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 It;s a gift that you have to learn to live with; also, it is useless unless you are ruthlessly dedicated to doint your homework and constantly educate yourself.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:45 | 1045882 css1971
css1971's picture

Disability. Broadcasting your IQ is an indication of emotional immaturity and insecurity. A crutch.

 

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 12:08 | 1046519 snowball777
snowball777's picture

That would be true,...if 145 was an even remotely impressive quotient.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:46 | 1045883 VisualCSharp
VisualCSharp's picture

So in other words, it doesn't matter a whit what your IQ is.

Tool.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 01:15 | 1045952 PhattyBuoy
PhattyBuoy's picture

Ya right - I have seen self-proclaimed dip shit geniuses before ... they typically do not know if their shoes or pants go on first !! Fucktard ...

You have NO clue if those core(s) are compromised or not ...

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 02:36 | 1046058 NoClueSneaker
NoClueSneaker's picture

Grigori Perelman could say a word about it.

But he resigned.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 09:15 | 1046312 spinone
spinone's picture

160 people have radiation poisoning already, and there is no public health concern?

Better get your IQ re-tested.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:08 | 1045808 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 It is not three Mile Island; which was another meaningless media event; or Chernobyl. Downplaying the significance of the this; (it has no "significance":), is the only function that a properly educated person can have in this wonderful world of totally ignorant typists.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:53 | 1045383 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

I have been watching the prevailing westerlie flows. The spring jet stream puts the cloud on the Pacific Northwest In about 48 Hours

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:26 | 1045440 serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

Oh goody gumdrops.

</sarc>

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:58 | 1045574 rosiescenario
rosiescenario's picture

....was wondering about that myself, sitting here on the coast at the north end of Monterey Bay. We are already getting some weird new crap falling on us that originated from China....

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:04 | 1045614 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

I'm in Oregon. Can't wait for all the goodies to arrive. But I'm sure that there is no reason for alarm; after all, these were only "small releases." I must have bad luck. I lived east of TMI when they also made "small releases," which later were admitted to be rather significant releases. But not to worry, I'm sure this time is different and the Japanese are being completely truthful about what was released. <sarc>

For any other PNW folks here, sea Kelp is full of iodine and will protect the thyroid from Iodine-131. Not effective against plutonium, however.

Just remember, the air in NYC on 9/11 was perfectly safe, as is the seafood from the Gulf.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:42 | 1045746 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 They were never admitted to be significant releases, becase they never were. You are very, very fortunate to live in a world run by engineers and scientists who have given you a standard of living that would be envied by Kings in the dark ages. Your ignorance is probably un-fixable; but you could try, at least.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:03 | 1045801 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

a world "run by" engineers and scientists? Ignorance does come in many shapes and sizes

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:47 | 1045890 VisualCSharp
VisualCSharp's picture

This guy appears dumber and dumber with every post he makes.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 03:16 | 1046088 DollarMenu
DollarMenu's picture

As a typist however, he is being paid by the word.

Too bad he has so little real knowledge to share.

 

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 12:20 | 1046556 Kegfreak
Kegfreak's picture

Admitted being the key word regarding releases at TMI.  I was there, although young and my mom worked 3 miles from the reactor in Middletown, PA.  A class action lawsuit brought by the people of the area that developed various forms of cancer after the release that didn't happen was summarily dismissed by a crooked judge.  Cancer rates in the area of TMI were elevated slightly for years.

 

On the other hand, I grew up fishing right next to TMI and the bass are huge!

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 13:00 | 1046650 pods
pods's picture

They surely are in that river. Pulled a 26" smallie up river in NY.  Big muskie too!

About the only thing I miss from NY.

pods

Mon, 03/14/2011 - 20:42 | 1052851 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

I had a lot of family in that area. The operative word being had. Aunt had cancer of the lining of the intestines, which they removed. How is that even possible? Cousin with stage 4 thyroid cancer, lots of reproductive problems. The list goes on and on. 

We are being lied to.

Mon, 03/14/2011 - 22:27 | 1052828 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Except "IQ145", I *am* an engineer. Practicing 20+ years, grad level degrees in EE and Environmental Studies, so what of it?

You think I am fortunate to live in a world run by scientists and engineers? Is that what you think we have here?

IQ != wisdom, my little troll.

There have been, are, and will be more releases. It's just like the GOM: the gift that keeps on killing.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 10:32 | 1046390 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

by geekgrrl on Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:04 #1045614

I'm in Oregon. Can't wait for all the goodies to arrive.

- - - - - - - -

With Geiger counter in hand, GEEK GIRL?

Don't dissapoint now.

 

 

.

Mon, 03/14/2011 - 20:35 | 1052833 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Hahaha... have a geiger counter coming tomorrow. Digital interface and all. Maybe if I can figure out a way, I could upload the data to ZH? :-)

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:55 | 1045386 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

Read between the lines, she blew her top.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:56 | 1045391 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

...now her bottom is getting hot

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:57 | 1045392 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

gonna see what she's got...

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:03 | 1045394 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

somebody help me

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:09 | 1045416 LostWages
LostWages's picture

Maybe a breathalyzer on your keyboard is needed.

Pray for those poor people, they are in deep shit.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:26 | 1045439 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

You're right LostWages, except for that keyboard remark ... makes you smell like pork.

 

 

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 09:18 | 1046314 spinone
spinone's picture

..ready or not?

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 21:55 | 1045389 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

It's her bottom that excites me!

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:04 | 1045402 bugs_
bugs_'s picture

180k people being evac'd from the 20km radius.

too bad NRO won't post real time thermal from orbit

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:45 | 1045749 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 You don't need a real time thermal; you need to be able to think straight; the evacuation is a politically correct piece of "radiation hysteria" which in itself, is very expensive and utterly useless.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:07 | 1045411 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture

From the reading I have done, the more pressure you have in a BWR reactor vessel the better the reaction works. More pressure yields more condensed water around the uranium bundles which yields... well better yields.....   releasing the pressure will slow the reaction as the water will vaporize. It sounds counter-intuitive, but light water acts to slow down the neutrons thus increasing their reactivity in a BWR design. Of course "letting her blow" will release radioactivity. And that's what I know on that.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:09 | 1045415 Rusty Shorts
Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:18 | 1045431 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

Cbsnews reporting a third reactor down.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:27 | 1045442 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

Yes, apparently "2nd Reactor going down" is Reactor #3

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:47 | 1045524 fuu
fuu's picture

6 of the 7 that were operable when the quake struck are now in trouble.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:58 | 1045581 serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

Cascading meltdown

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:01 | 1045590 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Keep in mind all rescue workers at the pant are gambling with their lives. All the firemen called to Chernobyl died

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:48 | 1045764 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 No one is gambling anything; you are so far from understanding anything; it's just amazing. The very small quantities of radioactive gases released were released deliberately; there is no on-going problem; none, whatsoever. It's too bad the operators were so paranoid about meaningless releases of gases into the atmoshere, that they allowed an explosive mixture of hydrogen and air to exist in the building; this will cost the power company some bucks; it means nothing for public health

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:02 | 1045799 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Yes, I'll have that scenario, thanks.

 

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:23 | 1045845 CD
CD's picture

Augustus, is that you?

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:51 | 1045897 VisualCSharp
VisualCSharp's picture

By tomorrow, I expect to see you in a lawn chair outside of the reactor getting a nice tan. So many things are meaningless to you; is anything meaningful?

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 01:06 | 1045934 serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

An armchair nuclear physicist? What a cool hobby!

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 01:27 | 1045977 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

" . . . there is no on-going problem; none, whatsoever.  it means nothing for public health"

 

Unbelievable. Pure crap.

 

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 11:59 | 1046491 Saxxon
Saxxon's picture

+1 Bastiat.  Sorry to be rude IQ145 but you are delusional.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 04:18 | 1046125 Glass Steagall
Glass Steagall's picture

Leave nuclear power alone! Leave it alone! <mascara runs down face>

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 10:35 | 1046397 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

You have to rememeber IQ145, this is the same crowd that was stampeded into by 'remedies' for the Y2K hoax ...

Lemmings and Luddites all, and probably still running Gatways, well, for the most part anyway ...

 

.

Mon, 03/14/2011 - 23:02 | 1053496 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Paraphrasing Upton Sinclair, 'It is difficult for a man to understand something when his salary depends upon him not understanding it.'

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:15 | 1045424 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Who hired this pommy piece of shit on Fox News right now? That meat puppet is an ass hole. I don't curse. I love my family though

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:30 | 1045445 Instant Karma
Instant Karma's picture

Is the nuclear plant damage just due to power outage? Earthquake damage? Tsunami damage? Or all 3? Not clear from the media!

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:51 | 1045549 Vlad Tepid
Vlad Tepid's picture

The earthquake damaged the offsite power generators and took them offline. Then the tsunami flooded the backup dieselpowered generators. That's why for the first day or so, all they were trying to do was hook up portable power modules to the plant to cool things down.  Didn't work.  What media are you watching?  Japanese news has this stuff down pretty well.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/tbstv

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:56 | 1045779 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 It's due to operating errors; there was no primary damage from the earthquake. The emergency shutdown spun down the turbines and alternators and left the plant with about a one minute window to come up with substantial AC power to run the coolant loop. The Diesel Generators came on line, and then tripped off. Why? we don't know. If you shut down the plant by human control over a five minute period; a spinning shut down; you would have thirty minutes of power from your own turbines to test and run the coolant loop pumps, and at least twenty minutes to hammer on the diesels, or jumpstart them, or whatever. Why the Diesels fell off line is going to be very interesting if we ever find out. It's undoubetly some kind of politically correct program; "no radiation at any cost" or some other idiocy".

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 05:00 | 1046155 Vlad Tepid
Vlad Tepid's picture

Can you cite, IQ?  I'm not getting that info from my sources.  They all (NHK, TBS, Nippon Keizai, Japan Times) say there was primary quake damage to the primary power source offsite and that the diesel (and the rest of the plant) was hit by the tsunami.  That the diesels were submerged seems very certain at this point.  They were most assuredly not turned off on purpose.  Political correctness goes over in Japan like a fart in church...

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:34 | 1045462 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

How's this for a nightmare scenario? Next up - 8.5 somewhere in Alaska. Followed shortly by another 8.5 about 50 miles offshore of central Oregon. Then either Mt Hood or Mt. Shasta blows major big time with pyroclastic flows heading west. And finally - ta da - an 8.8 right under San Francisco. Oh - wait. LA needs to be in this game too. How about an 8.8 in the Santa Barbara channel?

Just kidding.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:52 | 1045556 Larry Darrell
Larry Darrell's picture

Wonder what this global plate shifting is doing to the "super volcano" below Yellowstone

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:02 | 1045608 serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

When the "long valley" caldera blows, it'll likely be off the Richter Scale.

10.0^nth

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:31 | 1045858 Smaug
Smaug's picture

That blows in 2012. Looks like an extinction event to me.  Hope you have lots of spam, ramen noodles and water.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:53 | 1045900 VisualCSharp
VisualCSharp's picture

Would it matter what kind of food or water you have in an extinction event?

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 04:27 | 1046138 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

It isn't over till it's over and when it is, it is.

;-)

ORI

PS: I'd hate to die with spam in me.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:50 | 1045535 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

What tipped me off earlier in the day was the report that 3 people were treated for radiation poisoning. (!). That only happens so soon after exposure with large radiation doses, as low as 2 Sv but potentially way higher depending on the time interval from exposure to onset of illness. 

The very fact that they admitted this was the tip off

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:30 | 1045708 serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

CNN is talking about possible Cesium 137 exposure right now.

I'll freely admit that I didn't pursue additional radiological courses beyond Radiation 101. What I find the most confusing are the different units of measurement used in the nuclear power industry. You've got Curries, Becquerelles, Roentgens, Grays, rems, rads and Sieverts. What did I miss?

Yeah, I know. The different aspects of radiation are measured differently, such as absorbed dose or environmental contamination.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 22:55 | 1045568 automato
automato's picture

My wife is Chinese and I don't know if she has her story straight but she says that CTV in Taiwan is reporting that the tallest dam in Japan, the Kurobe Dam, has been completely destroyed! I cannot find any confirmation on the Internet anywhere, but if this is true, the disaster in Japan is only beginning. 

Even the News coming out of Japan is virtually non-existent with the exception of just a few localized high profile stories. The Japanese media and government must be REALLY scared because they have almost kept a News blackout OR their communication infrastructure is in total chaos and they have no clue what is going on throughout the country.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:10 | 1045636 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

A nuclear physicist reported that the government had set up a cordon 50 miles out to keep all news agencies out

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:09 | 1045811 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Please update with info from your wife.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:07 | 1045624 Fearless Rick
Fearless Rick's picture

It's really quite the mess over there. CNN was reporting that the Japanese .gov was saying 6 million households without power, about 10% of the country. I'm guessing it's more than that.

Maybe building nuke plants near fault lines is not such a good idea. Works fine for 30 years, then, wham. Hope they got their money's worth - built by GE!

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:54 | 1045905 VisualCSharp
VisualCSharp's picture

I read an article over on forbes.com about the disaster... followed quickly by how profitable of an event this was going to be for GE and some huge French nuclear power company. It was pretty sickening.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:21 | 1045681 walcott
walcott's picture

CNN reporting only 250 dead. Deny all truth at all costs all at all times.

BPEMR Soviet News Chernobyl more truthful.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-102756987285596323#

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:51 | 1045769 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I am reposting my comments from another thread:

"I know that this site is prone to unending conspiracy theories and I believe some are probable to some extent. Let me pose another theory here. The theory is that the Japanese government and emergency management is being reasonably honest and dealing with a hell of a lot of stuff, some planned, some unplanned. They try to balance developing, shifting uncertain information with reasonable caution.

I can see the engineers and workers in the plant working feverishly trying to figure out what is broken, what is not, what is happening, where problems are eminating, what lines, pipes, power grids, guages, etc. are working and not working, what the real situation is, what the physics are, what the danger is, what the top five solutions are, what the repercussions are on top of 8000 phone calls per hour asking all the above so they can report to their supervisors, governors, 12 regulatory agencies, three emergency agencies, the military, CNN, NBC, the U.S. state dept., and of course Zerohedge! It reminds me of times I was in the military and the shit is going down and everyone wants a fucking status report. Sometimes, you need to just fight and report later.

So, the evacuation might actually be precautionary planning for a worst case scenario. It might not be a lie or evidence of a cover up. It is entirely possible that no one, not one person "knows" with authority the entire picture. They are working through it as "shit happens" and we are about the 101st priority of the top 100 they are dealing with.

I would cut them a little slack. Any of you guys who've ever been in crisis or military situations knows how you have to work with imperfect information and control. After the fact everyone will Monday-morning quarterback you over cold beers and PowerPoint charts. Screw all of them.

So, there may be some limited "cover up". I don't deny it's possible to put some half happy face on the situation, but I posit the possibility that we've got some smart, dedicated Japanese engineers on the ground standing square in the middle of the "shit" going down trying to keep this thing from going truly nuclear...and they ain't got time to write a report right now. So, say a prayer for them if you're so inclined, cut them some slack and let's not pretend we know things we don't know.

The Godzilla of natural disasters just hit Japan and I think they're fighting the beast. I wish them well and luck if necessary."

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 01:17 | 1045956 Kaiser Zose
Kaiser Zose's picture

I would agree w/ this.  Though TEPCO's emergency planning communication can be cited as poor (by US standards), and official Japanese statements have been confusing and largely science-free, its beyond question that the engineers and operators are working feverishly to get the problems under control.  It's not their job to update media organizations and the like. 

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 05:37 | 1046164 NaN
NaN's picture

You are absolutely right, FreedomGuy, people need to cut them some slack.  Although a serious reliability design error was made w.r.t. backup power, emergency workers are certainly putting in heroic efforts.  

Apparently there are multiple possible sources of hydrogen (super heated steam, melted fuel reactions, etc.) and because this kind of pressure can build up, the building (secondary containment) is actually designed to blow out on the upper parts to relieve the pressure if it cannot be released in a controlled fashion.  This particular reactor also has a passive cooling torus that might work, provided there is enough water:

http://www.beyondnuclear.org/home/2011/3/12/fukushima-dai-ichi-unit-1-re...

The nuclear power operator tepco.co.jp/en/index-e.html has updated frequently but generally sticks to required announcements (and the Japanese version is pretty much the same).

I have found some news with more details (use translate.google.com):

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp

and there is mention of fuel rods being exposed to air by 1.9 meters.  An earlier article there mentioned that one of the control rods did not fully insert at unit 1, so perhaps that explains why it that one blew first.

 

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 13:46 | 1046771 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

My instincts agree with this. From what I've read the ground moved about 8 feet laterally and 6 feet vertically after the quake. So, they probably have multiple problems going at the same time with multiple failures and malfunctions. I'm not sure I would trust any guage I had, either. My guess is that everyone from welders, to scientists to janitors is up to their asses in alligators right now. I wonder how these engineering types are in emergency situations? Personality and decision making will matter as much as science right now. They will have to get it right with malfunctioning systems and incomplete information...and aftershocks, too boot. If they pull this off somebody probably deserves some medals...if they aren't dead.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 17:26 | 1047213 cahadjis
cahadjis's picture

I agree freedomguy, i'm an engineer and I've been a sergeant in the army too, so i completely associate with what you are saying. It's easy to evaluate after the explosions, but try to prevent them in the first place? Not many people dare/can.
Nice car btw.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:25 | 1045692 Smaug
Smaug's picture

The beginning of 2013.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:26 | 1045693 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

15 more people reported to be treated for radiation. http://on.cnn.com/gzqBrm

As I said above, the first report was all the confirmation I needed to know that there had been massive radiation exposure, either from a blown containment vessel or a meltdown (or both). 

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:55 | 1045781 serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

Info on caesium 137, strontium 90, and other biproducts of nuclear fission.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nucene/fisfrag.html

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:59 | 1045789 IQ 145
IQ 145's picture

 You should try really hard to grow up; someday something real may happen.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:58 | 1045913 VisualCSharp
VisualCSharp's picture

Um, what? Is there any good feeling stored away in that monsterous brain cavity of yours?

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 06:50 | 1046192 Escapeclaws
Escapeclaws's picture

This guy reminds me of the highest IQ person in all of recorded history, Marilyn Vos Savant, who had an IQ of 435 or something like that (which means that when she was 10 years old she could think like a 44 year old of normal intelligence). When Andrew Wiles did his proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, she came out with a book on it. Her book showed a complete lack of understanding of the mathematics involved. So what is this high IQ nonsense? It confers the right to make pronouncements on any topic without having mastered the subject! A person with a high IQ has no need to go to grad school or attain a diploma to certify his right to pontificate on any subject. Because they are so intelligent their opinions carry weight even if they are flat-out wrong. Just hang around the kind of losers that join Mensa and you will realize they are just circus freaks who don't have any idea what it means to master a discipline.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to reach for my calculator to do the captcha.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:27 | 1045697 Smaug
Smaug's picture

I had a typo. I meant to say the beginning of 2012. Good luck buds.

Sat, 03/12/2011 - 23:37 | 1045728 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Core Meltdown.

I think it's very FRACKtally telling, all around.

ORI

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2011/03/12/fukushima-blessed-island-trinity-unleashed/

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:53 | 1045896 Threeggg
Threeggg's picture

With this seawater that their using to cool the reactor, can't we just call Kevin Kostner and have him convert one of those centerfuge dohickies to take out the radioactive materials and return it to the sea ?

Pure and clean..........................

It's all green......................

 

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 00:52 | 1045901 flrzero
flrzero's picture

I think the diesel generators failed after about 1 hour (?) due to flooding by the Tsunami. If that's the case then it is a serious design flaw in this part of the world.

p.s. I live in Tokyo and it is a beautiful sunny day. Everything is calm and normal. Most fish, beef, bread and eggs were sold out last night. I bought the last of the $50/lb wagyu meat. There was a single package of whale meat and some of the really scary looking fish; I am glad to find that the locals don't even buy it during  a "crisis". We went out for dinner at a neighborhood French restaurant that was very quiet. About 80-90% of restaurants and stores are open. But the big department stores in Shibuya were close or closed early.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 02:31 | 1046052 Cistercian
Cistercian's picture

 I am glad you are ok.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 02:30 | 1045960 Bob Sponge
Bob Sponge's picture

the walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode.”

TD's before and after pictures in theother thread show that reractor 1 is no longer there.  I am thinking there was a meltdown unless part of the reactor is underground.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 01:45 | 1045995 10kby2k
10kby2k's picture

Didn't 250,000 die in the 2004 tsunami?

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 03:14 | 1046085 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

Yes it was 250,000 dead. There are 10,000 missing in one town in Japan.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 03:03 | 1046073 dryam
dryam's picture

My instincts tell me that the lack of information tells us that this is much worse than what's being reported.  They want evacuations to be as orderly as possible without any panic.  My guess is that holy shit has hit the fan & we'll find out about it in about a week or so.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 03:13 | 1046086 ddtuttle
ddtuttle's picture

I hope the explosion was "just" excess hydrogen being vented from the reactor vessel.
But did you see the shock wave coming off that mother? It went straight up.
After that explosion large parts of the control systems and cooling infrastructure are more than likely DOA.
The people running this reactor probably don't know what's going on anymore.

If you can't cool the reactor, you are the mercy of whatever random situation prevails inside the containment vessel.
Perhaps it will slowly cool (the control rods were deployed immediately) ,or maybe it will just melt. Not a good situation to be in.
If it melts down for real, many brave helicopter pilots will die from radiation exposure dumping concrete on the smoldering hole.
That's what happened at Chernobyl.

Sea water and boric acid are a total hail mary, not engineering, not science just good old fashioned seat of the pants panic.
Perhaps it is only designed to buy time to get everybody out of there

So I want to know is how can somebody with an IQ of only 145 be so F*&^ing sure what's happening?
Have some humility dude, 145 ain't nothing to brag about when your talking nuclear physics.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 03:36 | 1046103 DollarMenu
DollarMenu's picture

Why do you assume a screen name is absolute truth?

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 03:58 | 1046115 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

They don't need a coolant system. A garden hose could cool the plant down as long as all the control rods are in place.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 11:54 | 1046486 ddtuttle
ddtuttle's picture

Yes, but shutting a reactor down quickly, also requires not letting heat build up inside. A few minutes before the shut-down thing was generating a billion watts of energy. When it's generating electricity they are moving gargantuan amounts of "heat-exchange fluid" through the core, which keeps it at operational temperatures. In an emergency shut-down, the control rods stop the chain reaction, but there is an enormous amount of heat inside the reactor, and there are still numerous residual nuclear reactions still going on (e.g., neutrons have a half life of 10 minutes), if you don't continue to move cooling liquid through the reactor core, it will heat up significantly, causing high pressures, hydrogen gas all of which can drop the water level in the reactor below the top of the rods, which can cause enough heat to melt the whole thing down.

This is why they need a few days of emergency water flow to cool the reactor off. Of course, in this emergency there's no electricity to run the pumps. Oops.

We learned at 3-mile Island that water cooling is not a viable design. These reactors were all modeled on nuclear submarines, which pioneered the technology. A submarine that is having an emergency has a lot of one thing (too much in some cases): high pressure cold water. Their emergency cooling systems were all based on pumping unlimited amounts of water through the reactor. Of course, a submarine is manned with military personnel, who are by definition expendable. More expendable than a city of ordinary citizens, anyway. Putting a reactor on land means the emergency cooling system is entirely active, the water must be stored on site and actively pumped through the reactor. And this is during an admitted emergency. This design was never good enough for civilian power generation.

We need passively cooled reactors that simply cannot melt down no matter how many systems fail. This is called "Homer Simpson Proofing" the reactor. Even if a group of terrorists stormed a control room, there is no sequence of "button pushes" that could melt the reactor down ... period. The technology is within our means, the politics are getting worse by the minute.

Oh well.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 14:12 | 1046835 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I've wondered why there are not passive or low tech cooling systems as simple as storing large amounts of water higher than the level of the reactors to allow for a "dump" if all else fails. The Japanese built their reactors next to the ocean which has an unlimited supply of water, albeit salt water that would permanently ruin the reactors but avoid a catastrophe. Seems to me you want a fail-safe system like that anywhere. Homer-Simpson proof as you say.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 04:01 | 1046118 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

There is one piece of info I read that is strange; cold water will cause the nuclear reaction to increase and heat up the pile. 

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 04:21 | 1046131 Gordon_Gekko
Gordon_Gekko's picture

Anybody who gives a shit about what some corrupt Japanese politician is mouthing needs to have their head examined.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 04:59 | 1046154 baconator3000
baconator3000's picture

You are probably the bigest uneducated moran i ha azzve ever seen on zh. you contribute nothing

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 05:03 | 1046156 Vlad Tepid
Vlad Tepid's picture

I agree with you but next time let me give the verbal spanking...your keyboard seems to be broken, Bacon.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 07:42 | 1046230 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Thought exercise:

1.  If this is a melt down scenario, lots of important people stand to lose lots of money and power.

2. These people control important media outlets and employ lots of "operatives".

Will sock-puppetry occur?  Even here at ZH?

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 09:06 | 1046289 Ignorance is bliss
Ignorance is bliss's picture

When the building essentially vaporized, all of the plumbing to the hardened casing went with it. How are they going to cool the rods with all the plumbing gone? There has to be openings to the casing that allow water to flow into and around the rods. Are the openings exposed to air? I don't see how the worst case scenario could be avoided. If there is a melt down, what about the hazardous conditions created around the other nuclear cores. Will that essentially cause death to everyone at the facility? I believe Chernobyl is still running today. I seem to recall a lot of Gov't disinformation when that reactor was melting down. I am more inclined to believe the managers of NISA. They probably don't have a legacy of population control in their history. These are probably men of science that are use to dealing with facts.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 11:51 | 1046477 Kaiser Zose
Kaiser Zose's picture

I'll be offline a lot of sunday but i would say that the top of the Rx Bldg blowing out should not compromise piping to the Rx Vessel...these are all located on levels below the refuel floor (e.g. if you are standing at the side of Spent Fuel Pool at Fuk 1 right now, you could look up and see outside, it appears).  However, the fact that they were unable to establish normal or emergency cooling to the Vessel (at multiple plants), is a sign that they may have mechanical damage to piping/valves/pumps/motors associated w/ ECCS.  The electrical distribution system inside the plant is probably also a mess, which may be a lot of their problems w/ establishing cooling.  If the tsunami flooded areas inside the plant then electrical protection probably took out electrical buses.  You can't get the buses back until the faults are cleared or you can basically run temporary cables from a working power source.  Not easily done and especially not in those circumstances.  Not sure how they are pumping seawater into the vessel but there are multiple paths to inject into the vessel.  It's likely that there have been multiple failures at all plants, vastly complicating or compromising decay heat removal - which is required post Rx s/d.  Its also possible that they lost their normal water sources to inject into the vessel(s), or the ability to pump from them, hence using seawater.  As long as they can get seawater into the Rx vessel(s) then core cooling is established and further degradation is unlikely.  Granted, the Rx will be a write-off at that point but that's a financial concern for later.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 12:10 | 1046524 davepowers
davepowers's picture

thanks for all your posts.

The latest TEPCO presser says they're putting in sea water to #3 via something called the "Fire Pump.' This notwithstanding that they make it sound as those all normal and emergency cooling methods for adding water failed. So they at least have some way to get sea water in there.

Sun, 03/13/2011 - 12:33 | 1046580 Kaiser Zose
Kaiser Zose's picture

All nuclear sites have fire water systems for fire protection...this system will have pumps, piping, even its own emergency diesel (small in size).  It can be used to fill the spent fuel pool and even the Rx with a lot of manipulation of equipment.  TEPCO was reporting offsite power available at Daiichi site but this can be misleading (if even true)...as if there was a lot of electrical damage (likely), then you could have OSP available but not able to connect it to the plant.  Its very likely that step-down transformers from OSP to the plant (located outside in the switchyard), are damaged or equipment in-plant is damaged so that much like a man stranded in the ocean, water water everywhere but not a drop to drink...

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