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TEPCO Chimes In With News On The Powerline, NRC's Jaczko Warns Japan Radiation Levels "Very High", As AP Says No More Water In Spent Fuel Plant
The "powerline" meme which suddenly everyone is talking about, may be a little premature according to TEPCO:
- TEPCO CANNOT CONFIRM IF THE POWERLINE IS ALMOST DONE OR NOT
And in the meantime the NRC's Chairman Jaczko comes out swinging with some more bull in china shop statements:
- JACZKO SAYS PEAK NUCLEAR RADIATION LEVELS IN JAPAN `VERY HIGH'
- JACZKO SAYS PEAK LEVELS `LETHAL' AFTER `FAIRLY SHORT' EXPOSURE
And the worst news comes from AP:
- NO MORE MORE WATER IN SPENT FUEL POOL AT JAPAN NUCLEAR PLANT:AP
To all trading this headline driven market, our sincerest condolences.
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The Civil Defense siren just blew here in suburban Minneapolis...it is windy.
That TEPCO is trying to bring in power is NOT surprising. What is surprising is the magical thinking of people reporting it...or maybe not.
Besides the looming humanitarian crisis and social disruption, I continue to believe that a Japan bond default is now inevitable. I give it 12-24 months.
AFP live updates include:
1900 GMT: The Fukushima accident has generated a "radioactive plume" which is likely to expand in coming days but does not present any health threat to Tokyo, the head of a French nuclear safety agency says.
Jacques Repussard, from the Institute for Radiological Protection and Nuclear Safety (IRSN), adds thought that there could eventually be a "strongly contaminated zone" extending up to 60 kilometers (37.5 miles) around the stricken plant.The cloud's extent "is relatively concentrated on a zone of several dozen kilometers around the site, depending on the fluctuation of the winds, which are generally blowing towards the Pacific Ocean but not always," Repussard says. "In the coming days, this plume will eventually reach a zone of several hundred kilometers, but our calculations show that, for example in Tokyo, exposure will not have any impact on health in any way," he told a parliamentary committee.
1836 GMT: More grim news about Japan's stricken Fukushima nuclear plant is emerging. There is no water left in the spent fuel pool of reactor 4, resulting in "extremely high" radiation levels, according to the head of the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
It's early morning in Tokyo, just before dawn. Tokyoites (Tokyovians?) are waking up
and reading these alarming comments by Jacques Repussard, implying that a
spent fuel rod fire already occurred.
The tell will be whether the JR East railway station fills up with panicked people wanting
to buy a one-way ticket to western Japan.
During 'golden week' holidays, Japanese undertake mass migrations. But even with every
westbound train from the Shinkansen to the local milk run packed standing room
only, it would still take weeks to empty out Tokyo. And since it's the capital and
major business city, the economic disruption would be dire.
Wonder if there are any webcams at the train station? My feeling is that the Japanese
officials are suppressing the full truth to avoid setting off a completely unmanageable
human stampede. After all, this has never happened before -- one of the world's
most populated cities, threatened by a radiation cloud.
The amount of tech/electronic supply that is within one weather system of this flaming pos is enough to forget about your new iPad or whatever. Margin compression? How about supply cessation.
And the worst news comes from AP: * NO MORE MORE WATER IN SPENT FUEL POOL AT JAPAN NUCLEAR
If the AP is reporting this then their considerable reputation is on the line.
My god, what this site needs is a good dose of a Kaubel ass kicking. I say, get the moderators from the Elitist Jerks webpage to do their thing here and you'd lose 90% of the idiots (looking at you Trav, Harry, ITG) within an hour.
From the head of the NRC:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/NRC-No-water-in-spent-fuel-apf-2091500355....
They are still calling the obvious (from photos) major explosion at Unit 4 a 'fire.'
So I don't believe them.
Earlier they used the oddly passive formulation that later the fire wasn't visible, so
they presumed it was out. And they admitted that workers couldn't venture up
to the 5th floor level platform to check the spent fuel pool. They had to turn back
at the 4th level because the radiation was too high.
So what was burning (and exploding) inside Unit 4, if not the spent fuel rods?
Everything points to a spent fuel fire in terms of promouncements by western
governments, as well as putting the observable details together.
Evidently the Japanese government cannot afford to admit what the French have said,
that an intense cloud of radiation has been released during the past 24 hours.
Because they know that a mass exodus from Tokyo into western Japan (Osaka-Kobe-
Kyoto) would produce indescribable scenes of homeless refugees.
http://derstandard.at/1297820491194/Animation-Moeglicher-Verlauf-der-Str...
Can't read German, no idea how legit this is.
Shep's expert, Dr Peter Hoseman from berkeley, didn't add much, but confirmed that the fuel active in #4 was removed 'in the last month.' So that pool, the one that is now apparently dry, would be full of the most recently active rods.
JACZKO works for Goldman. CDO's must pay-off
Now it’s just crowd control. Let them know slowly keep the fear levels down and distribute minute by minute hope.
NHK pulling out charts, diagrams, technical 3D sculptures, and architecture images as experts try to calm nerves.
http://wwitv.com/tv_channels/6810.htm
Lord have mercy
Another mind boggling and utterly inexcusable design travesty.
How expensive is it to install 10 or 20 or even 50 kilometers of underground electric cables? They could normally carry power out, but be capable of bringing power in during emergencies of this kind.
Another totally obvious requirement should be one of those huge water tanks high up on big fat steel legs that serve drinking water to many towns. If they had one of those for each reactor building, they'd have all the water they need for emergencies even without electricity. Gravity moves the water without electricity, and manual values require no electricity.
The people who design and approve these facilities are criminally negligent beyond comprehension. These kinds of simple precautions are so obvious, and so inexpensive compared to the facilities, that it boggles the mind.
honestann,
Right, after 40 years of providing low cost readily available electric for hundreds of thousands of people.
A force 9.0 earthquake, and then a 7.5 metre wave, and all the devestation that that wave caused when it came inland, and then retreated seawards, and all of the selfless men who are now trying to stop these reactors going godwords deserve no no thought?
Do you have any idea of the magnitude of what these poor fuckers are going through?
And then you have the nerve to say shit like what you have? The plant is 40 fucking years old you idiot, have some fucking shame you cunt. They are doing what they can for the sake of the rest of their land, I would trade just one of those techs for 20,000 fucking shits like you.
"Do you have any idea of the magnitude of what these poor fuckers are going through"
I can imagine. When you are an operator at a nuclear power plant, you can guess what they are trying to do about this problem or that.
The "Armchair Engineers" here really amaze me. Try this, why don't they do that, couldn't they have designed this or that. Run the power lines underground (incoming and output)? That was the work of a true electrical engineer there! Let's see, how much insulation would it take for 3 phase, 50 hz, 230,000 volts (some generate at 345KV to 500KV) and only about 2,300 amps. Ohh, maybe an inch. Sure lets bundle all of the feeders and put them underground. Put emergency water towers up on stilts - just like my domestic water tower down town. Oh wait, can you engineer one of those to withstand the highest postulated acceleration expected due to a design basis earthquake, and then a tsunami? How many of those towers do you see standing in the pictures from the areas surrounding the site?
I like the genius who thinks you can run out to Lowes or Home Depot and just buy a generator capable of replacing the EDG's. Good luck finding one with the capabilities to run the RHR or Core Spray pumps. How are they supposed to power the pumps - with a stinking little extension cord? Folks, that is 3 phase power running at around 150 amps and with voltage in the range of 4,160 volts to 13,300 volts. A supplemental diesel generator will need to be hard-wired to the emergency AC power busses. and, you can't just turn on the pumps. You would need to start the battery chargers first in order to have control power. You could close the large breakers by hand, but if they have a fault they will not trip! Bad could get worse.
Are things there bad? You bet! Are we in danger? I don't think that the radioactive cloud will make it to our coast with enough airborne contamination to make a difference. Will it cause irreparable harm to the Japanese coastline. I believe so.
The underground wires I mention are for safety systems, not to carry the entire power output of the facility. Duh! Sure, they can carry some power out when everything is working, but a safety system doesn't need to carry ALL the power from all 6 reactors! What are you smoking, dude?
Yes, a water tank can be EASILY built to withstand those earthquakes. Even full of water they weigh a tiny fraction of what office buildings in Tokyo weigh, and they would be nowhere near as high as those towers.
You are just making up pure BS to pretend I am saying BS. But what I propose is simple and works, unless you simply invent out of fantasy delusion that I'm saying things I am not saying.
Even if ALL the equipment at the facility was destroyed, the underground power would supply pumps brought in later.
If you morons believe they had sufficient safety systems, you guys can't understand facts staring you right smack in the face, even after they blow up in your face. And forget me, nuclear engineers have been bitching about these and other problems for decades.
MAYBE people in the USSA will not be harmed very much. Maybe. Do you understand they have 600,000 "spent" fuel rods at that location (according to news reports)? Do you understand how much plutonium is in those rods? While only reactor #3 takes plutonium-uranium rods, all those "spent" fuel rods contain plutonium because the process of operating in the reactor naturally converts some of the uranium into plutonium.
Do you understand how deadly plutonium is? Do you understand a microgram will kill you dead? Do 600,000 "spent" fuel rods containing plutonium not bother you? Even when you realize ZERO of them are inside the primary (innermost) containment vessel, and ZERO of them are inside the secondary containment vessel? Their "cooling ponds" are only covered up by the buildings, which BLEW UP. That's first rate, brilliant, totally responsible, design, according to apologists like you.
Time for people to wake up and realize that large corporations and government and their regulatory agencies are absolutely, completely and utterly corrupt. They don't care how safe anything is. They only care for their own personal power and wealth. Period. And people like you help them get away with endless atrocities.
OK, I forgot you must have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night and are suddenly a Nuclear Facilities Engineer.
When you get your USNRC Nuclear Operators License you may better understand how these systems are laid out. Unless you specify 1E systems, and since the main thrust of the original post was about an attempt to restore a single offsite power source, I (as well as others) assumed you were talking about the feeders.
The 1E power supplies are all routed where they are not exposed to the postulated accident conditions. They are train-related (redundancy) and are already buried in vaults, encased in metal conduit, and run through their own cable races.
Now, these pumps that are brought in later, do they just snap into place, or have they replaced the certified welds with zippers now? Which pumps do you suggest they use temporary ones for? The RHR pumps, the Nuclear Service Water Pumps, the Core Spray Pumps, the Spent Fuel Pool Cooling Pumps or just the RBCCW pumps. Here's a hint - some systems rely on other systems for a heat rejection path. Why don't you fire up your GE BWR control room simulator and enlighten us. I'm sure that the experts haven't been attempting to model the current (reported) status of each unit as it is.
Oh, and yes I am aware that the spent fuel "pools" are exposed. Yes I know how poisenous Plutonium is. So are these spent fuel rods 100% plutonium? Are they highly or slightly enriched. Except for the MOX bundles, Pu is a byproduct of fast neutron capture in U238. What is the initial load of U238? Is it added on purpose, or is it a "tramp" isotope that is not cost-effective to separate during processing. There is actually no "Secondary Containment Vessel" The Reactor Building is the Secondary Containment "Building" When the term vessel is used, it is assumed (in the industry) that you are talking about the reactor vessel.
Are the utility owners likely to be untruthful? I think so. Are the regulators sometimes not entirely truthful. I think so. What do you propose we do, eliminate the regulatory agencies and have the plants owned communally?
"You are just making up pure BS to pretend I am saying BS. But what I propose is simple and works, unless you simply invent out of fantasy delusion that I'm saying things I am not saying."
I almost burst out laughing reading this part. I could just picture you frothing at the mouth and pounding out a response to the cretin that dared to question your expertise on nuclear power. So, do you have a docket number for your reactor operators license/ OK, do you have a GFE docket - either PWR or BWR will do since they both touch on temperature and void coefficients of reactivity. Maybe you are an AO at a plant? A system engineer, RP or chemistry technician? If not, what other fields do you profess exceptional knowledge of? Medicine? If so, maybe I can get you to diagnose this brown spot on my ass.
Those people who DO have the degrees you want me to have signed off on these clearly insane designs! So why is it that you want me to have the same useless degrees and certifications?
Before you jump in, I'm not saying they are all morons, or all corrupt. If you read my other posts, you would have read what happens to honest, rational, thoughtful scientists and engineers who object to insanely stupid designs... they are edged out, reassigned or fire, and then replaced with others who are willing to sign anything for their paychecks. Plenty of people in every profession are willing to do that, and they can find them.
And many of the experts who were honest have indeed written and published objections, some in scientific journals and some in more general publications. You wish to ignore them all even though they do have the credentials you ask for, because they do not say what you wish to hear. That's totally disingenuous. Instead you raise utterly bogus issues, which do not address, and cannot help arrive at answers to important questions.
I'm not sure where you're going with your comments about the pumps brought in later. The whole point of putting in that underground electrical line was for backup and safety when normal systems fail. If they had indeed put that system in, they would have also had the appropriate pumps and other devices already purchased and sitting in a facility away from the reactors and any possible tsunami damage. So I simply don't get the thrust of your questions. All these answers should have been settled before the plant was built, and the equipment (including plugs and cooling systems) tested now and then.
No, even the active electricity producing uranium-plutonium rods are "only" 7% plutonium as far as I can learn. So sure, the percent of plutonium in the other rods is vastly lower than 7%. True, I don't know how much lower, but when one microgram will kill you dead, and they reportedly have 600,000 rods on site, the percentage can be 0.0001% and still be very, very dangerous to millions of people worldwide if something happens that partially vaporizes those rods and sends even small quantities into the atmosphere. Have you worked out the quantity of plutonium (and other really nasty stuff) in 600,000 rods? Can you tell me there is nothing significant to worry about if events continue to degrade? If so, please explain. We all want to hear.
Yes, there is a secondary containment vessel around the active core, according to several GE and TEMCO diagrams and other sources. The innermost primary vessel appears to be ~8" thick specialty steel, and the secondary vessel appears to be a combination of steel and concrete. But either way, all that's important is... the rod pools are only contained by the buildings, which blew up, apparently because too-hot rods and casings caused the oxygen in the water to get pulled off the water molecules as the rod casings oxidized.
They have not stated yet whether the fuel rods in the pond above reactor #3 were the next load of MOX to be installed, or whether they were spent rods from [hopefully] non-MOX fuel rods that were previously in the reactor. Probably they were non-MOX, but they have not said. If they were MOX, then there is a huge quantity of plutonium ready to be shot into the atmosphere at the next disaster at reactor #3, if one occurs. How much was already released is also unstated so far.
Yes, I know why the plutonium exists in the spent non-plutonium rods. But also, yes, I do not know what percentage has been converted to plutonium. While I infer the percentage would be low (nothing remotely approaching 7%), it doesn't take much plutonium to concern me very much.
The question of how to prevent dishonest people from building unsafe facilities is not an easy one in the modern world where virtually everyone with significant enough financial or political power can get away with anything. To answer this "theoretically" is easy. To answer this "practically" is difficult. But the degree of blatant dishonesty and irresponsibility is so extreme, something must be done, or the predators of this world will eventually destroy everyone. I say this as someone who believes safe [enough] nuclear power is possible and feasible without making the expense higher than other sources of power. One possible approach (not answer): if insurance cannot be purchased from private insurance companies to cover worst case disasters, then the plants should not be built. And no "funny business" allowed. The insurers must have the resources to pay out, and no bogus government "taxpayer underwritten insurance", but real full bore, full value insurance. My guess is, this would force the companies to design facilities soooooo clearly incapable of causing widespread damage, that insurance could be available. However, this is just an approach. I'm not sure if anything can protect us from the predators-that-be that exist today.
So many people today have nothing constructive to contribute, so they adopt the modus operandi of the predators, which is destroy. I'm happy to be corrected, as long as evidence is provided and the intent of the statement I made that supposedly needs correction is not intentionally distorted. That kind of back and forth might help all of us arrive a more accurate inferences of what happened and what might happen over the coming days, weeks and months. These personal attacks are completely unhelpful, and rather silly given the gravity of what's happening. Why not attempt to be productive rather than destructive. Remember, the boy who said "the emporer is naked" was not a PhD in clothing. Any observant, rational human may be able to contribute valid observations or inferences. And since the people most directly involved in this situation are liars and are not conveying much of the crucial information I seek, I am forced to try to figure things out for myself. If you don't like it, tough.
You have it exactly BACKWARDs.
Those poor souls who are surely dying now are the first and most tragic victims of these travesties. THEY are not responsible for planning or designing or approving these absurd systems, they are simply employees hired after that happens.
How could you POSSIBLY think I was pointing blame at those poor souls stuck in those plants. The CEO and the rest of the executives at TEMCO and GE should be in there, and every member of every approval agency. THAT is who deserves to pay for the travesties.
The world suffers several 9+ earthquakes every century, and that area is the most active earthquake and tsunami place on the face of the earth. That is massive irresponsibility.
And about those costs. How much more would your electricity cost to implement these and other simple and totally rational safeguards that I and others have mentioned? 0.01% more?
You have your anger pointed at the wrong direction, and pretend I say things opposite of my points. Read what I said, not what you imagine for no reason whatsoever.
No, no honey, that radiation reading looks great. Really....
From NHK:
US to measure radioactivity in Japan
The United States says it will conduct its own measurements of radioactivity in Japan in the wake of radiation leaks from an earthquake-damaged nuclear power plant in Fukushima Prefecture.
US Ambassador John Roos told reporters in Tokyo on Wednesday that measuring equipment and 34 experts arrived in Japan the previous day. The equipment included instruments for measuring radiation levels on the ground and in the air and computer systems to process the data.
Roos said the US is deploying all these capabilities because it's important to provide as much assistance to the Japanese as possible. He also said ensuring the safety of the US citizens in Japan is their highest concern, adding that it doesn't mean his government doesn't trust data provided by Japan.
Roos reiterated that his government will provide continued support to Japan, adding that 7 experts from the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission arrived in the country on Wednesday.
The US government has already sent 4 experts from the commission, the Energy Department and the Health and Human Services.
Wednesday, March 16, 2011 20:19 +0900 (JST)
Hold on, they'll plug the new powerline in, the Emperor will flip the switch, marching bands will play away, fireworks will be resplendent, geishas and sake for all while the PM signs a new contract with GE for 6 new plants - the Mark-Ups - I don't know about you, but I can't take much more of GE's "Imagination At Work."
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to the rescue ...
And were are they going to connect the power to? That plant needs a bit more than an extension cord.
I really do hope they get fix !!!
They had to have run the new line from the nearest working power station or substation which was probably not that close and that is probably why it took this long to get it there.
Some of those 50 workers may have been repairing or jury rigging the electric cooling systems that were damaged in the tsunami and explosions and maybe there is a chance that this will do some good.
on CNN right now they are quoting Jazcko(sp?) said '2ndary containment' has been 'completely destroyed' at unit #4. This sounded like he was talking about the spent fuel pool. Don't know what 2ndary containment in connection with the pool consists of.
AP: New power line could restore electric cooling systems...
Prank caller: "Is your refridgerator running?"
If they have helios to drop water, how is it they cannot helio in a few generators. This happened on Friday - its wednesday now (pst time zone).
Those puppies need MW gensets, not KW gensets...really big shit.
How about a generator ship off shore?
How about a generator ship off shore? Unless there isn't much left to plug into.
Sure, we'll be happy to sacrifice several thousand US Sailors. No problem, why didn't you just ask earlier?
They booked out 3 days ago ... they knew this was FUBAR work in progress.
Somewhere in Japan lurks the Kamakazie who's willing to wear a lead jock strap and go in...
Exclusive photo of power cord going into cooling pool!
http://www.lukegilman.com/high-on-the-hog/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/extension-cord-in-pool.jpg
lulllzzzzz
We drop atomic bombs on Japan to end worldwar eye-eye, and now their multi-reactor melt-down-chain reaction threatens the U.S.
Is this it?: What Goes Around Comes Around ?
But... but... I listened to Rush in the car today and he said media like CNN are over-reacting to this situation. And now there's a power cord...
You know what's criminal? I've been scanning the headlines in Japanese media in Japanese, and there is no information about NRC's analysis that they think there is no water in the storage pool at Reactor 4, and that the Japanese government and TEPCO denies it.
Sure, noble intent no doubt not to cause panic.
http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/03/japanese-media-ignores-news-of.html
Shit's going downhill fast.
Wow.
WTF burgers for everyone. My treat.
Oh, did I call the 'alarm bells during market close time' and 'all is well during market open' or what?
This is how Bernank Does it...shake your hips and wave your hands...this is how Bernank does it...
He could get involved in the budget negotiations, instead of having his VP do it from a dacha in the Russian countryside.
Watch NHK Live stream
They are discussing the Fukushima Nuke Plant, with neat models..
Before they can do anything, they need power. If they get power, then they need motors and pumps, which should be readily available if not already nearby. Once they connect all the stuff and get it working, progress can be made to "cool-down" the hottest spots.
It is a race against time, if all this can happen before more catastrophic failure, then they can make some headway. The cost will be high, most likely some poor techs and engineers will meet their maker early. Right now it is not much, but it is all they have, so say a prayer for those people to make it work, they need it badly.
sschu
Fireboats?
Posted in the Guardian news blog:
Tokyo Power Electric Company says it is considering laying new power lines into the plant directly from cables of another power company. The company says it hopes to reactivate the cooling systems by connecting the cables to a makeshift switchboard and using them as an emergency power source for the systems.
But the company says it was unable to carry out the work on Wednesday because of high readings of radiation in the compound.
The company says it will try to complete the installation as soon as possible after reviewing the procedures in order to keep the workers' radiation exposure to a minimum.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/16/japan-nuclear-crisis-tsunami-aftermath-live
------------
This report confirms statements from US and French nuclear regulators that the radiation level at the Fukushima plant is very high.
Is it from steam being vented from the partially melted cores, or the fire in the spent fuel pool, or both? Either way, it indicates that radiation levels are so high as to seriously interfere with emergency efforts on site, even after allowable exposure levels for workers were jacked up. Japanese authorities seem to be holding back information, not wanting to panic their peeps.
I certainly hope that they can get at least one source of offsite power available. That would make the operators jobs a little easier. Just hope that the 1E transformers are in working order. The switchgear should be OK (fingers crossed).