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TEPCO Provides Complete Fukushima Status Update And "Roadmap To Recovery"

Tyler Durden's picture





 

For everyone anxious to read a comprehensive update (of sketchy credibility, but better than nothing) on the Fukushima situation, a progress report out of Tepco, and the current status of the firm's "roadmap to recovery" (seems to be a catchphrase these days), Tepco has just released a progress status of the "Roadmap towards Restoration from the Accident at Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station." From the release: "With regard to the accident at Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station due to the Tohoku-Chihou-Taiheiyo-Oki Earthquake occurred on Friday, March 11th, 2011, we are currently making our utmost effort to bring the situation under control, and on April 17th, we put together a road  map towards restoration from the accident. Today, as a month has passed since we presented the roadmap towards restoration, we would like to present the status of the progress." And the by now "too little too late" apologies: "We would like to deeply apologize again for the grave inconvenience and anxiety that the broad public has been suffering due to the accident at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station. We will continue to make every endeavor to bring the situation under control." How about providing the public with a true and honest update of what is really happening?

Progress Status report: (link)

TEPCO progress status -

Current Roadmap Status: (link)

countermeasures -

Progress Status toward Accident Restoration: (link)

countermeasures 2 -

 


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Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:01 | Link to Comment Robslob
Robslob's picture

If you provide the public with the truth then how can you effectively kill off excess...the excess is human beings in this scenario.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:25 | Link to Comment jus_lite_reading
jus_lite_reading's picture

MOTHERFUKKERS!!!!- "The Obama administration urged the Kan gov't to take steps to prevent further decline in TEPCO stock."

To hell with the people!!!! We care about the  stock price!!!!!!!!

http://fiatsfire.blogspot.com/2011/05/two-head-tuesday-nearly-3000-fukus...

AND DONT WORRY ABOUT THE 3000 PEOPLE RUSHED TO THE HOSPITAL!!!

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:07 | Link to Comment traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

"grave inconvenience"? wow, that's an understatement.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:30 | Link to Comment ZackAttack
ZackAttack's picture

I think that is just a translation error. What they actually meant to say was 'an inconvenient grave.'

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:22 | Link to Comment BillyBoy22
BillyBoy22's picture

+5000

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:39 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

As in the "inconvenience of digging your own grave"

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:40 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

Actually, when japanese use the word "grave" it means something like "truly fucking awful".

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:57 | Link to Comment Use of Weapons
Use of Weapons's picture

Shikata Ga Nai

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:08 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

And so the farce continues. Two months later and what was clearly obvious to everyone except the ZH trolls and mentally deficient, that a catastrophic accident happened and the only truth we were getting was and would be that there would be no truth coming from any authority that couldn't be obscured, obstructed or hosed down with sea water first. But now, finally, we are getting the whole truth about the glorious way forward.

 "We will continue to make every endeavor to bring the situation under control."

They are, of course, talking about getting the public relations situation under control. Sorry folks, but TEPCO and the govts of Japan and even the USA have no, zero, nada, zilch credibility left. Try again.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:14 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Exactly.

They admitted they knew three reactors were melting down within one day of the event occurring.

How long did it take for them to raise this to level 7? I recall it being weeks....this also after a clear nuclear related explosion in reactor 3.

Now, the US is not releasing data on radiation levels; in air, veggies, or fish. And get this...with at least 3 reactors in full meltdown they declare the reason they are no longer releasing information to the public is because the situation is stabilizing and levels are going down. Give me a fucking break.

Oh, by the way, 2 Sieverts per hour were reported in one of the reactors....good luck with the clean up.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:19 | Link to Comment cossack55
cossack55's picture

Story on www.enenews.com about Obama admin influencing Kan to not report accurate info so as to not endanger TEPCO stock.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:39 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

+1 enenews. Great site. A little hyperbolic at times, but they get the good news snippets.

Also, what about our US counterparts explanation "we really didn't know what was going on - it was confusing." Nice try.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:16 | Link to Comment Ckashan
Ckashan's picture

+++++++

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:20 | Link to Comment FriedEggs
FriedEggs's picture

It seems like the BP oil spill all over again - one year later...

Remember the HUGE 80+ days-in-a-row oil spill in the Gulf...all the sheep have forgotten about it...and have almost forgotten about Japan...

 

Fried(e)

 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 21:23 | Link to Comment Dirt Rat
Dirt Rat's picture

The BP oil spill is exactly TEPCO's model for handling its situation. With both incidents, I think there will come a time when everyone realizes that the environmental impacts are still there and were never mitigated. You can call me a tin-foil hat, but with Fukushima I expect a huge uptick around the world in birth defects in the next 1 to 2 years.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:25 | Link to Comment jus_lite_reading
jus_lite_reading's picture

"except for ZR trolls..." HEY CD! Speak for yourself!!! LOL

What really gets my goat is that they tried to stamp out so-called rumors that were really the truth!!!!!!

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:46 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

There was and is no doubt that a coordinated effort to suppress the truth was orchestrated by TEPCO and various other interested parties during the days and weeks after March 11, 2011. What wasn't so obvious was that this effort extended to web sites and blogs, the so-called Internet social media.

Those who spoke very loudly against anyone who posited that we were being lied to, saying we were being alarmists or rumor mongers or just plain dumb have been slowly backtracking since then or just plain disappeared. Those who frequent these sites and blogs know exactly who and what I am talking about.

This process is usually sub contracted out to corporate disinformation services for hire, a practice that was officially exposed when the Washington Post ran it's Top Secret America series where it discussed private contractor's roles in influencing public opinion.

What wasn't talked about much in the series, but was mentioned several times, was the practice of public and private companies hiring these subcontractors to troll the various blogs and web sites with a ready made/created cast of personalities and avatars ready to jump in and post 'opinions' on any matter that money can buy.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:01 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

yes, yes, and this paranoia led you to accuse various people as psyops who are so far from it that the mere mention is laughable

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:12 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Nice of you to respond to my mention of ZH trolls and the mentally deficent.

But of course Trav, you always had the best interest of the nuclear industry at heart while you carried their water. Particularly in the first two weeks after the earthquake/tsunami, you hammered away with ad hominem attacks anyone who spoke out about offical government lying and/or pointed to obvious contradictions or obfuscations by the so called 'officials'.

Sure, sure, you provided enough disclaimers and hedges to cover your ass. But only the blind couldn't see what you were doing or what you are. A troll.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 15:42 | Link to Comment Sock Puppet
Sock Puppet's picture

Here is Travs theme song, give it a listen, thanks akak.

http://trololololololololololo.com/

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:41 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

trav you landed in an obvious fucking troll trap!

WTF?

Et Tu, trav?

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:00 | Link to Comment serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

It may be a somewhat broad generalization to label all the naysayers at ZH as paid disinfo agents. I believe some of them just like to debate any opposing views. Now that we have the benefit of hindsight, and know that many of our worst fears have been confirmed, it still is not sufficient justification to label all of them as paid trolls.

Just my opinion.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:09 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Please point to where I "label all the naysayers at ZH as paid disinfo agents" or that I "label all of them as paid trolls".

I'll wait for you to do so before proceeding.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:18 | Link to Comment serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

I suppose without naming specific names or personalities, your post seemed to suggest that. My apologies for reading it differently.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:52 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

First no where in my post above discussing the coordinated attack do I mention Zero Hedge. I do say various blogs and web sites. Specifically I said.....

What wasn't so obvious was that this effort extended to web sites and blogs, the so-called Internet social media.

Second, I never say all in that post nor did I infer all. And I didn't say naysayers either but rather...

Those who spoke very loudly against anyone who posited that we were being lied to, saying we were being alarmists or rumor mongers or just plain dumb have been slowly backtracking since then or just plain disappeared.

I was discussing those who attacked people who claimed we were being lied to. Many people who defended the industry weren't defending the lies. There were only certain people who defended the official lies under the guise of chaos or a fluid situation or that the officials were doing the best that they can and so forth. And always they used invective and ad hominem attacks to do so. They used those two techniques together.

And it was done all over the web, not just on ZH. This is why I didn't narrow my comment to only ZH.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:55 | Link to Comment serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

Thank you for the clarification.

Actually, the issue that you brought up really isn't that important (to me anyway). It seemed like some kind of assignation of blame, even though I find the type of collusion you mentioned reprehensible.

I'll refrain from making such hasty conclusions in the future. 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:52 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

It's true, but I'd also say people are naive if they don't think there are paid "opinion influencers" on ZH. You have them on fucking amazon.com for chrissakes.

ZH is no different.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:10 | Link to Comment jus_lite_reading
jus_lite_reading's picture

WOW! Thank you CD for that. I've always known about these paid shills who come here just to counter the truth but i didnt know there were actual subcontractors that do this! It shows almost anyone can be bought for a dollah....

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 14:55 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

We should contract Amazon.com's "Mechanical Turk" to counter robo and zings posts. Mechanical Turk is a service where you essentially email electronic work which is bid on and performed by people in places where the rate of pay is substantially lower than in the US.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:07 | Link to Comment Use of Weapons
Use of Weapons's picture

My name is Elena. I run this website and I don't have anything to sell. What I do have is my motorbike and the absolute freedom to ride it wherever curiosity and the speed demon take me. This page is maintained by the author, but when internet traffic is heavy it may be down occasionally.

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/chernobyl-land-of-the-wolves/author.html

 

Her numberplate is "KIA" which is just pure brass.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:25 | Link to Comment Cabbage_the_cat
Cabbage_the_cat's picture

***Possibly Debunked***

 However, Chernobyl tour guide Yuri Tatarchuk claimed that Filatova "booked a tour, wore a leather biker jacket and posed for pictures.

http://racingsouthwest.com/forums/topic/7450-kidofspeedcom-fake/

 

 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:25 | Link to Comment Use of Weapons
Use of Weapons's picture

Um, yes. Her wiki page admits it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elena_Filatova

Even Neil Gaiman has blogged about it being a hoax / exaggeration - the page/meme has been alive since before 2004. In internet terms, ancient ruins.

The juxtaposition was deliberate: TEPCO's version of what the future holds for Fukushima is comparable in terms of credibility. Aka, just like the 'girl on a bike' [<HINT> "KIA" <HINT>], they're spinning fairy tales to make reality a bit sweeter, a bit more livable. In the long run, the truth will out, the cynics will be proved right, a little bit of hope will die and the next generation will get exasperated by the older people's insistence on focusing on things that aren't important.

 

http://www.rice.edu/nationalmedia/news020808radiation.shtml

http://www.nanosciencenet.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=206

 

Note: $540,000 in funding, and I can't find any follow up - peer reviewed or otherwise. You do the math on that one: fraud or <Top Secret>? How does one test that for FDA approval anyhow?

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:08 | Link to Comment Gert_B_Frobe
Gert_B_Frobe's picture

What, no crates stenciled "Nuclear Power Plant Fixit Stuff" from Acme?

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:08 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

typical japanese response, apologize for inconvenience and anxiety...NOT actual harm

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:06 | Link to Comment Guinny_Ire
Guinny_Ire's picture

This is just the first draft in a series many many many.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:11 | Link to Comment Ethics Gradient
Ethics Gradient's picture

I missed the bit where they descrive how they're going to deal with a pool of molten fuel.

Come to think of it, I missed the bit where they described their mitigating actions.

Actually, on reflection, seems like bollocks to me.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:02 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

yes...pour in lead and tin if the corium temperature is below the melting point of sand, otherwise pour in all 3 plus some boron.

Crack open the cores and get them flowing into the pipes.

THEN you can entomb.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:17 | Link to Comment serotonindumptruck
serotonindumptruck's picture

Easier said than done, Trav.

At 2 Sieverts per hour, who in their right minds would volunteer for this work? Like Arnie Gundersen stated, it wouldn't be a slow death, it would be quick and ugly.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:53 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

The radiation has shot up from about 50 millis to 2 in a week. That's an increase of 40 times. It's not clear that this was measuring the exact same spot, so this might not be an accurate increase over time.

But 2 sieverts is starting to fall in the kill faster scenario. 1 sievert exposure for a few hours gives you cancer at a pretty high percentage rate, and makes you "feel nauseus". 4 sieverts will kill you pretty fast (not immediately, but I think you fall down and blood starts spurting out your nose).

So we're already past the point of getting people in to make the situation better, at least at one of the reactors.

So it's just going to get worse.

They're going to have to get super creative at this point.

Not sure how they'd crack the core of a 2 inch thick steel encasement if they can't get near enough to use a tool on it.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:17 | Link to Comment fuu
fuu's picture

Fukushima will go down as the event where all government credibility jumped the shark. Anyone still trusting any governemnt employee to have their best interest at heart is a sucker victim waiting to be abused.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:20 | Link to Comment NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

But... but, they love me!

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 21:37 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Mo'ammar!  Long time no see!  How's the disgruntled employees thing going?

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:25 | Link to Comment strannick
strannick's picture

The collective obedient stupidity of the Japanese people in this instance is proving detrimental to the world in the form of radioactive rain.

I presume #$%#ing Tepco hopes to save some bucks and save some face by eventually salvaging this shitshow, when they should be burying in concrete.

Japan now falls behind the Soviet Union for humanitarianism and enviromental stewardship

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:29 | Link to Comment Juice Box
Juice Box's picture

Sounds a lot like Dr Evil's "Project Vulcan" in the Austin Powers movie.  Next thing you know, the Japanese will be extorting us for One Million Dollars!  Let's hope we can pay with paper and not PM's.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:35 | Link to Comment sschu
sschu's picture

Not making apologizes, but not sure what can be done about this situation right now.  They cannot get close to the reactor vessels.  The containment buildings are leaking, water for sure, maybe molten fuel.  So they have no real way to stop the reaction and cool it down. 

The amount of water already sprayed that needs to be "decontaminated" is staggering.  Unit 4 could collapse with hundreds of tons of spent fuel sitting there.  Entombment is a non-starter until temperatures go down.  Build a big tent to hide the shame, classic response.

What happens if we get another 8.0 aftershock?

It will be years before any real progress is made, Tepco and the Japanese government must know this.  Who wants to deliver this news to the people?

I hope I am wrong, but this will go on for years.

sschu 

 

 

 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:56 | Link to Comment pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

Not making apologizes, but not sure what can be done about this situation right now

 

 

Not Sure?  I know your referring to the clean up, but how about they could have been honest with the people and evacuate at a greater radius then 20KM?  Do you realize they are just now evacuating further out?  Take a look at this article.....by the way some of the farmers aren't evacuating yet because they need space for their cattle!!!   Really????  Them there cows are useless now!!!  Kill them out of mercy and run like hell to get out of there!

http://www.inewsone.com/2011/05/15/evacuation-outside-20-km-radius-of-fu...

 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 14:41 | Link to Comment sschu
sschu's picture

You are correct, Tepco etal has been criminally negligent in not telling us the truth.  Punish them severely.  If that makes you feel good, so be it. 

That is not the point of my post, however.  This punishment changes very little about the problems at the site, they still remain.  Thanks for highlighting my point.

sschu

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 14:58 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

How about notify the people in 20KM that the plutonium spent fuel was vaporized in the reactor number 3 explosion.

A tiny bit of plutonium gives you cancer. It's been found far from the reactor.

Fairwinds shows a compelling side-by-side video to show that the hydrogen explosions were 100s of times less violent than #3 (which they claim exploded due to "prompt criticality").

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:36 | Link to Comment Fix It Again Timmy
Fix It Again Timmy's picture

Trumpets blare, now a drum roll, now the message you must never forget:

“Every government is run by liars,” independent journalist I.F. Stone observed, “and nothing they say should be believed.”

Repeat after me....

“Every government is run by liars,” independent journalist I.F. Stone observed, “and nothing they say should be believed.”

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:53 | Link to Comment glenlloyd
glenlloyd's picture

If I bothered to read the rubbish Tepco puts out for public consumption....it would be at least an hour of my life I would never get back.

So...since all they seem to be concerned with is apologizing for the inconvenience of having been caught in their own blundering...by literally everyone, I'm not reading none of it cuz it's all just a bunch of lies and fabrications.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:52 | Link to Comment carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

Under Improvement of Workers Enviroment:

"Installation of temporary dormitory for workers"

So they can sleep inside the exclusion zone?

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:57 | Link to Comment sundown333
sundown333's picture

First off I want to thank ZeroHedge, George Washington and everyone else who has spent so much time and effort to keep us informed of what is happening with the Fukushima accident. I do have to say that this story is starting to become boring but not for the reasons you may think. I am bored from the inaction on the part of TEPCO to control this situation. Boric Acid? Sand? Anything? Nothing in the "grab bag" to save lives and property. This would be a comedy show if it were not so sad. According to my research including new findings with scientific proof that even low level radiation can be harmful to human health, I can only conclude that those involved with this "accident" have zero regard for human life. This is a rather sad state of affairs for those of us who would like to have at least mere survival in this land of lies and deception.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:54 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

+1 Thanks guys.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 16:49 | Link to Comment The Heart
The Heart's picture

"First off I want to thank ZeroHedge, George Washington and everyone else who has spent so much time and effort to keep us informed of what is happening with the Fukushima accident."

 

Yes, lots of gratitude for the gathering of minds and hearts here. This may be the best journalistic coverage on the entire net. The energy news site comment section is also up and coming for good info and the continued coverage of this ONGOING horrific subject. Thank you one and all for your great input.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 11:54 | Link to Comment silberblick
silberblick's picture

Read here about the Orwellian steps taken by the Japanese government to hide from the foreign press (and its citizens) what is really going on in Fukushima:

http://fukushimadisaster.blogspot.com/2011/05/japanese-government-takes-...

Read here about NILU and the EPA suspending radiation monitoring despite emission particle increase as of late:

http://fukushimadisaster.blogspot.com/ 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:12 | Link to Comment dugorama
dugorama's picture

that didn't take long:

Page not found

Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog Fukushima Disaster does not exist.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:15 | Link to Comment Dapper Dan
Dapper Dan's picture

Why have they not removed this site posted below i don't know,  unless it is just a TEPCO employee appreciation barbecue.

 

http://pointscope01.jp/cgi-local/f1np/f1np1/imageview.cgi?mode=past_frame

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:15 | Link to Comment slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

the disaster at the fuk_u site is still beyond human mitigation. 

but, the propaganda, crowd control, and markets are functioning.

so, hello, kitty!

---written on another rainytope CA day---

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:18 | Link to Comment onarga74
onarga74's picture

Tepco is a 3rd grade class and the teacher left 3 months ago. 

It would help all of us if we had anything remotely similar to Walter Cronkite instead of entertainers explaining on a whiteboard how many non-Japanese people farted 20 minutes before the earthquake.  I mean this story here certainly isnt worthy of a second look. 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-23/fukushima-engineer-says-he-cove...

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:34 | Link to Comment pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

ornaga...read this story...it came out 2 days ago that Japanese authorities are just now evacuating outside the 20KM range and there are farmers that don't want to go because they need to find a place that has enough space to take their cattle as well!

Normalcy Bias or what???!!!

http://www.inewsone.com/2011/05/15/evacuation-outside-20-km-radius-of-fu...

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:37 | Link to Comment pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

my secret admirer/junker is at again!!  Please tell me who you are I'm so excited!

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:17 | Link to Comment PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

Glad it was "only a tiny leak."

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:44 | Link to Comment Dorotheo Arango
Dorotheo Arango's picture

Chinese syndrome will be called Colombian syndrome now?

http://phronesisaical.blogspot.com/2011/05/fukushima-and-epistemology.html

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:49 | Link to Comment redpill
redpill's picture

NoThreatToHumanHearth NoThreatToHumanHearth NoThreatToHumanHearth NoThreatToHumanHearth ahhhhhh sorry for any inconvenience we commit seppuku now!

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 14:33 | Link to Comment the left behinds
the left behinds's picture

LOL

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 12:58 | Link to Comment Threeggg
Threeggg's picture

Wake up you trolls !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is Cs 134 and 137 in the food in California.

From U of C Berkeley

Enjoy you're Strawberries and Kale Bitchez.

Oh I almost forgot, are you ready //////??????

It's in the Topsoil Biatchez........................

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/2525

 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:10 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

yes but in what concentrations?

The page you referenced said I need to eat 8 thousand kilograms of strawberries to equal a dose equivalent to one roundtrip between SFO and IAD.

IOW, cut the fuckin paranoia

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:37 | Link to Comment Threeggg
Threeggg's picture

You know what Trav.

STFU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I read ZH regularly and as I recall, you're historian ass was the one saying oh don't worry, and it will be ok, it's being overblown. Tell that, too the millions of Japanese families that have been ruined. Tell that, to the mother's that have had their breast milk contaminated. Tell that, to the people that can never return to their homes. Tell that to the American people that can't even get their own Government to test for these radionuclide's that they entrusted and funded them to do. Tell that, to the generations to come that will be affected by this. Tell that, too yourself.

You are fucking fool dude, this shit is of an Accumulative nature (28 year 1/2 life) and you want to tit for tat about how much is in there. ??? What !

Like Prego say's "It's in there"

Ass

.

You said..................

 "The page you referenced said I need to eat 8 thousand kilograms of strawberries to equal a dose equivalent to one roundtrip between SFO and IAD."

Now I know you are as fake as they come. Because you don't know the difference between riding in a plane and "Fucking eating the shit" ? 

That exposes you for the washed up wanna-be historian you aren't.

I am done with you're fake ass. !

Done and never to respond again !

. (period)

 

 

 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 14:09 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Threeggg

Trav will never be wrong in public. Of all the shit he posted on ZH this is the only thing I saved because it shows his sociopathic personality. His words are very telling. He says straight out that he takes great pains to never be wrong in public. NEVER wrong in public. How anyone can say with any degree of confidence that he will "never do it", meaning be wrong in public, tells me everything I need to know.

He will never admit he is wrong......in public......which is the only way you can prevent yourself from being wrong in public since there will always be a time when your information is wrong. And based upon reading him I have never seen him admit he was or is wrong.....in public. Why did he say "in public"? Because it would kill him emotionally to be seen by anyone as wrong. Even more telling is his comment about "doing......psyche analysis".

I made bold the section below, not Trav.

 

by trav7777
on
Sun, 03/27/2011 - 12:15
#1105489

 

Dude, how the fuck do you think I was ABLE to be first with that post unless the retraction was ALREADY OUT?

By the time TD put up the goddamned page to draw you flies in, the reading had ALREADY BEEN RETRACTED.  He knew it and I knew it. 

I understand the psych phenomenon of projection.  Consequently, I do understand how you people could believe I am talking shit, because you yourselves pretty constantly are.  Downing Effect.  READ it.  Write a fucking NOVEL on it.

But, anyone who has done even a paucity of psych analysis would realize straight away that being wrong publicly is an anathema to me, which is why I take great pains to never do it. [my bold, not travs]

A fair recitation of the facts would have made equal emphasis to the retraction, instead of paragraphs of shit about the initial reading buttressed with utter CRAP about the radiation burns suffered in the water by those 2 workers, as if TEPCO EVER said the things TD just attributed to them.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 15:01 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

Trav,

I think the "roundtrip from SFO to IAD" thing has been exposed as being a canard (despite the fact it is on the UC Berkeley website). It might be equivalent to putting your lungs on a first class passenger seat, and having it ride around perpetually.

Low doses of ionizing radiation are not good if you get them inside of you.

That said, there is a paucity of information out there about this.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:21 | Link to Comment intric8
intric8's picture

Ah, yes TEPCO and their bogusness - their skewed data, their overly optimistic assessments proven wrong, and not to mention bright ideas that have met epic fail... the list goes on

http://www.falloutphilippines.blogspot.com/

 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:31 | Link to Comment Dejean Splicer
Dejean Splicer's picture

This summer we will have solar activity so intense that it will wipe out about 60% of all northern hemisphere crops.

Then we will again be visited by the rouge planet which will end everything that the earth, and the inhabitants have ever known.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 17:02 | Link to Comment The Heart
The Heart's picture

Ever see that movie, "Knowing?"

Your light is bright!

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 21:30 | Link to Comment parangwarrior
parangwarrior's picture

elenin???

november dude.. november.. i think its tail debris will cause us problems

eletric universe theory makes it more interesting..

there are prophecies mentioning future civilization (us) riding horses, waging war using swords... interesting isnt it..

 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 22:29 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

The rouge planet will end everything ever known by giving bright red cheeks to everyone on earth.

 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 13:38 | Link to Comment majia
majia's picture

summary of headlines and links for your records

In March there were 2 hydrogen explosions (at units 1 and 2) and 1 probable nuclear explosion (at unit 3).  http://fairewinds.com/content/gundersen-postulates-unit-3-explosion-may-have-been-prompt-criticality-fuel-pool?

All three units—1, 2, and 3—are in various states of meltdown and have core containment breeches as there are holes in the bottoms of these units’ primary containment vessels (http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/17_34.html ; http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703509104576325110776621604.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_News_BlogsModule; http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703509104576325110776621604.html)

Unit 1fuel rods completely melted and melted core may be melting through secondary containment (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/video/2011-05/17/c_13878946.htm and http://ecocentric.blogs.time.com/2011/05/16/was-fukushima-a-china-syndrome/)

Re-criticality (or fission) occurred at the plant after the March explosions.
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/26738/

Radiation continues to be released at the plant continuously and spikes in releases continue to occur as well http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-27/tokyo-water-radiation-falls-to-zero-for-first-time-since-crisis.html

The possibility still exists for more hydrogen explosions (Gunderson http://fairewinds.com/; see also http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/13/fukushima-reactor-meltdown-flooding-warning)

Reactor 3 is particularly at risk—its temperature has been rising (http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/10_28.html
link to reactor 3 temp:
http://atmc.jp/plant/temperature/?n=3)

Reactor #1 is too hot to operate within by workers. This will slow work to stop radiation releases. http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/10_02.html

Just by opening the door the for unit 1, 500 million becquerels of radioactive substance were released last week http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20110509x2.html

Radiation is being deposited throughout the Northern Hemisphere, particularly in the US and Canada (http://zardoz.nilu.no/~flexpart/fpinteractive/plots/?C=M;O=D)

 

Radiation is bio-accumulating in our food, as illustrated by this post: "Radioactive Strontium Found in Hilo, Hawaii Milk"
http://blogs.forbes.com/jeffmcmahon/2011/04/27/radioactive-strontium-found-in-hilo-hawaii-milk/ ; http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/51585989-82/nuclear-radiation-scientists-bullets.html.csp ; http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/2525 )

Provocative post by "Tacomagroove" found at time magazine article on Fukushima  http://ecocentric.blogs.time.com/2011/05/16/was-fukushima-a-china-syndro...

"what this means: There is a tremendous amount of nuclear fuel and no way to control the temperature of it. Even if the fission process is totally arrested, the rods will continue to produce heat by decay...

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 14:11 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

Just a note on the continuing measurement of radiation in Northern California (from an undisclosed location).

As of May 17th, for the last two days, the airborne radiation measured by yours truly has dropped back to the background levels (0.07-0.09 microsieverts/hour) which I measured very early on. Further, the audible clicks (which happen when a decay happens), have gotten few and far between.

For the previous week, the levels had been raising to a fairly "high" level of constant 0.15. "high" is my own label here, do not read too much into it. What I mean by this is 0.15 is a reading you'd rarely
get (0.30 causes an alarm), and when you did, it would go back down.
However last week it was persistent (it measured 0.15 outdoors, and in
some parts of the house, and did not go down). In addition audible clicks were going off all the time, much more frequently (I'd say about 5 times at least). The damn Terra-P sounded like a popcorn machine sometimes. Terra-P is the Ukrainian handheld military unit that measures gamma and beta radiation.

Note that some "experts" will tell you that this is an extremely
low dose of radiation and you get the same amount by travelling
on a plane. This has been debunked. The issue is that low amounts
of ionizing radiation from a particle inside of you is worse for
some obvious reasons. One is that the particle can stay in you
for a long time, and will be active your entire life (e.g. Cesium 137).
The second is that alpha and to an extent beta particles can be
stopped by small and slightly larger amounts of material (resp.).
Thus, inside of you, there is no intervening material (like clothing)
to protect your pink, exposed lungs.

Now back to why the radiation is low here now. My guess is that the wind has shifted. I'd guess that the Fukushima plant is putting out more particulates and radiation into the air (based on the videos), but my understanding is during the Summer, the wind shifts back over Japan, and blows out probably to Taiwan and the Chinese mainland.

In terms of effects, while I can't be sure, I have had a productive,
hacking cough as has my son. I had mine for about two weeks, but then
started to get over it when I wore a breathing mask to sleep. After
doing this for two days, my cough started getting better. I realize
this is not adequate proof for causation, and the mind is a powerful
thing, however, the "high" readings of radiation in the air were
from the device, not my mind.

People in the Ukraine had much higher incidence of lung problems after Chernobyl. Two
stand out. The first is called "atypical Pneumonia". Obviously if
you are an old or sick person and die of pneumonia, people think nothing
of it. But if you're a kid and you have pneumonia, well that's
not typical. Another was asthma.

So not to make anyone more paranoid than they should be, but the
airborne radiation fluctuates quite a bit, and its effects can be
confused with the same effects for pollen (itchy eyes, scratchy voice),
after all, radioactive dust is the ultimate irritant.

I'd think this is a possibility for anyone living in the US (that
the radioactive dust may visit you at some point).

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 14:21 | Link to Comment majia
majia's picture

The winds shifted. The jet stream recently was north. Now it is over southern california and me in Arizona! http://www.weatherimages.org/data/imag192.html

The EPA radnet has not posted data for most of the cities in this area for 4 days! My asthma is killing me today as the front from CA is moving in...

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 15:05 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

Radnet is useless trust me. By the time something shows up on Radnet we'll all be glowing.

Also EPA announced they were stopping monitoring as they expected "radiation was going to decrease". Pretty sorry logic. I'd assume that order came from the top.

UCB continues to monitor at least in NorCal.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 18:17 | Link to Comment majia
majia's picture

After Berkeley Nuclear Engineering lab put up those awfull, propagandistic videos I began to question the integrity of their data. What do you think?

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 14:17 | Link to Comment jmc8888
jmc8888's picture

Well with all this gov't bashing shitshow, and believe me, it's understandable with Fukushima...let us not forget that corporations are actually WORSE.

Which one is dumber

Harry or Lloyd?

One is the gov't

the other is

Corporations.

Both are dumb as dogshit.  One for the money, the other trying to hold onto power...or enriching themselves via favors for....corporations.

So what is worse than a gov't filled with fools?

A corporation, or thousands of them gaming government.

Corporate government sucks.  Which incidently is what we have basically worldwide.

We get the worst of both worlds.  The answer isn't to drown gov't in the bathtub and let fox run the henhouse. 

The answer is for the public to quit believing every piece of trash sophistry that throws them off track and pacifies them. How to arrive at that answer? Hard to say, but it starts with routing what is currently hampering us, fraudulent debt as a product of the broken system, via Glass-Steagall.  It is possible to have gov't not act like this, but we'll actually have to grown mentally and emotionally as humans AND kick the corporations/banksters to the curb.

All the people that want to drown gov't in the bathtub are focusing on the wrong thing.  Drown the corporations, and THEN see how gov't acts.

But none of this will change the fact that both gov't AND corporations screwed the pooch on this one.  The gov't/corp virtuous pact of failing together strikes again.

 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 14:56 | Link to Comment Byronio
Byronio's picture

The residents of Japan have good cause to mistrust the media, TEPCO officials, and members of their government when it comes to assurances about radiation levels, plutonium dispersal, and the related health risks. Americans also have good cause to mistrust these same sort of assurances issued to American residents.” ~ Lucas Whitefield Hixson, April 23, 2011

Over the past few weeks, Japan, the US, and EU all have issued public statements that confirm the total disregard for safety, protection, and well being of their citizens. In their Orwellian rhetoric, this means harm is the order of the day. The most immediate radiation threats from Fukushima’s on-going nuclear nightmare are to all citizens throughout Japan. From the beginning, on March 11, there was no serious evacuation plan. The original 10-mile Fukushima evacuation was worthless. On April 26, the 25th anniversary of Chernobyl’s nuclear catastrophe, Physicians for Social Responsibility [PSR], “underscored the ongoing health risks of nuclear energy to the public. …[a] clear reminder that standard evacuation zones cannot protect the public from a nuclear accident.

PSR also has released “a new interactive Evacuation Zone Map” to give us a clear picture of continuing nuclear dangers:
www.psr.org/resources/evacuation-zone-nuclear-reactors.html

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 15:05 | Link to Comment Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

Worth remembering: Chicago is roughly 80% nuclear, more than France.  The owner of these units, Exelon Corp., is the Obama Administration's nuclear conscience....or lack thereof.

Hence both US political parties are incapable of competently handling nuclear issues due to corruption.

Pretty Fuku situation.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 15:21 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

As much as I'm against the situation in Fukushima (in the same way that a politician is "against crime"), Nuclear energy is a part of our future (i.e. the human race).

There is no other source of energy that is even close to being as efficient, or available to meet our current needs.

One could argue that the problems that are happening in the Nuclear Industry, at least partly arise from the fact that we can't have an adult discussion, as a nation, about energy policy (or perhaps anything).

If nuclear power stations are so old they are falling apart, it's because we haven't taken proper care to upgrade them, because nuclear power is such a forbidden subject. Obviously the situation is complex and their are other forces at work, namely that nuclear waste lasts a very long time, and there is a tendency for for-profit corporations to not want to deal with the full costs over time.

However, there are places that seem to "do it better." France seems to do a better job of dealing with waste storage.

If we could do without nuclear energy, that would be great. But there is nothing that is even remotely able to replace it in our energy footprint in the coming decades.

Uranium Bitchez.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 17:17 | Link to Comment Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

Ah yes, France.  Adroitly handling their waste by....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11684571

http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/342706/view

 

...well, actually the French have no long term storage.  They are about as far along as the US is.  So there's that.  Ditto for Japan by the way.

 

I am by no means anti-nuclear, but I do have a healthy sense of caution when it comes to trusting the current political economic systems with catastrophic risk management.  Nuclear may just have to have its fuel cycle retired because we are not capable of effectively managing it, especially with the growth of limited government movements like the Tea Party which are inherently anti-nuclear (nuclear being the ultimate socialist technology in many respects).

And of course it can be replaced.  Policy made it and policy can unmake it.  It's just money, holmes.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 22:56 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

What to do with the spent fuel has always been the turd in the nuclear punchbowl. The default response for the last fifty years has been to kick the can down the road until "they" figure out a long-term solution. In the meantime, it continues to accumulate in "temporary" facilities like spent fuel pools and dry cask storage.

Because politicians are invertibrates, they will always kick the can when faced with difficult decisions. The spent fuel problem will be solved around the same time that bankers and Wall Street earn an honest living and the area inside the I-495 beltway has been cleaned of corruption and corrupting influences.

Sustainable power from fusion is likely to happen first, since it's been just twenty years in the future for the last forty years.

 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 15:35 | Link to Comment metastar
metastar's picture

Its good to see that we have a certified PMP on the job.

They should well be able to contain the radiation with excess power points, gantt charts, WBS, risk analysis, and other excess documentation.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 16:19 | Link to Comment TSA gropee
TSA gropee's picture

Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer, quoting a line from the Hindu scripture Bhagavad Gita: "Now I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

He knew his genie well.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 17:37 | Link to Comment sundown333
sundown333's picture

Wrong. We will not need nuclear in the future. If the forces that be let Fukushima keep spewing radiation for years to come we will lose about 38-42% of the population in about the next 14-18 years. Think my numbers are too high? Study the impact of the radiation thru the food chain, air, water. Study the impact on human life. Study how those who don't get cancer will most probably be sterile and thus less kids, etc. It can very easily happen and thus you know the reason behind the media/ government blackout on the story. Imagine the panic. Still think my numbers are too high. Study and do the math. If you don't believe me, ask Christopher Busby.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 17:52 | Link to Comment Estrella
Estrella's picture

Okay, so, just how stupid is it, and I am asking this seriously, to nuke the facility? Would an H bomb actually make things worse? Which is better, a very intense, powerful blast or decades of radiation releases? In part I ask since I have seen the craters of dozens of blasts and most of them have grass growing in them. Trinity, for example, looks quite like the surrounding landscape (though, that was a far, far, far smaller device).

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 19:10 | Link to Comment Stormdancer
Stormdancer's picture

There are thousands of tonnes of spent fuel with very long lived radioactive materials in it.  A nuclear explosion...heck...any kind of massive explosion...would just atomize that stuff and launch it high into the atmosphere where jet streams can distribute it far and wide

If it sits there for years sputtering and spewing at current levels, significant portions of Japan will be off limits for a very long time.  Blow it up and you'll likely see elevated cancer rates all over the northern hemisphere for generations.

There are no painless answers, nor quick ones ... and there haven't been since day one.

The best of a horrible lot seems to be the same one the Russians came up with to deal with Chernobyl.  Hundreds of thousands of "jumpers" working short periods each to try to keep individual dose levels below the deadly threshold.

Right now, they've got explosion debris and deadly airborne radiation levels limiting access to the buildings.

They've got basements and lower levels chock full of melt-your-eyeballs "hot" water that has to be removed before any substantial work can be done.

They finally got that "mega-barge" pulled up from Yokohama so they should have another 10,000 tonnes of storage capacity for that water on site in a day or two...but they've got 22,000 tonnes of water in the basement of reactor 3 alone.  No place to put it.

I still say all that water is going to have to go into the sea.  That's going to be a disaster all its own, but with (last estimate I've heard) 90,000 tonnes of highly radioactive water on site and tonnes more created each day I don't see any other option.

Entombment isn't an option until they've cooled the fuel.  In this case, access to the fuel is still blocked by the pressure vessel and primary containment.  If they could open up the tops of the reactors they might be able to pour sand, lead, tin and boron into them a la Chernobyl, and eventually cool the stuff down enough to begin entombment.  Radiation released during that process would be catastrophic.  Not to mention the fact that the whole exercise would be an engineering nightmare requiring removal of all the debris above and near the reactors before they could even start.  The cranes and heavy equipment normally used to lift the caps off the containment and pressure vessel are mangled scrap metal now and something new would have to be built to handle that task.

I'll stop for now because this is turning into a book instead of a blog post.  But all this work has to be performed next to spent fuel pools constantly bathing the area in radioactive steam...in and above damaged buildings threatening to drop shattered debris on man and machine with every aftershock.  Oh, and did I mention radioactive water 4.5 meters deep in the basements?  The work can't be done by men in wet suits and aqualungs even if the water wre pure.  As it is you'd have the bodies of pickled frog-men to pull out within minutes if you tried.

Ugly no matter what angle you try to view it from.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 21:16 | Link to Comment Estrella
Estrella's picture

Stormdancer, Thanks for the excellent and educational response.

Question - I have read Tyler's and other comments that the fuel has likely penetrated the foundation of the reactors and is very likely contaminating the ground water. In addition, the graphite reactor at Chernyobl was half of a single building. This facility is gigantic. It is not at all clear to me that you can encase an area that large in a single structure. And, if the fuel is still fissioning underneath the facility, what is the point of entombing the facility?

 

Not wanting to really tork off Pinhead (below) it seems like this is going to have to be some thin surface material to stop wind or water migration of particles and a large fence to close off the area for several centuries (classic SciFi stuff, an ancient fence with a rusty sign reading "Keep Out till the year 2950").

 

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 01:23 | Link to Comment Stormdancer
Stormdancer's picture

You probably didn't mean to ask for another book, but being concise isn't one of my strong points...so here goes. 

 

Question - I have read Tyler's and other comments that the fuel has likely penetrated the foundation of the reactors and is very likely contaminating the ground water.

1.  On May first, hidden deep in a report on reactor's 1-4, it was announced that "highly radioactive" water was being pumped out of a "sump pit" somewhere in reactor #6. The article I read stated that the water had to be removed because it was threatening to compromise worker's ability to access the lower levels of reactor #6.  If you go to page five of this latest reactor status report from JAIF:

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1305606533P.pdf

You'll see that they've been pumping radioactive water out of the lower levels of reactor #6 every day since then.

 

2.  There haven't been any reports of significant releases of radioactive material from reactors #5 and #6.  So, where's the radioactive water beneath those buildings coming from?

 

3.  Reactor #6 is over 500 meters north of reactor #1 and there is no above ground pathway for water to move from #1 to #6.

 

4.  The only other logical pathway I can see is underground.  If that's the case (and I'm convinced it is) then groundwater contamination is already at catastrophic levels.  If water that is radioactive enough to endanger operations at a supposedly undamaged reactor a half a  kilometer away, and is coming in amounts that require daily pumping operations to keep it at bay...Houston we have a problem.  It's being ignored for now, but I'm sure this will be yet another problem that will become undeniable in days to come.  Groundwater is not only already highly contaminated...it's also already migrated long distances.

 

So, how's the radioactive water getting into the groundwater?

1.  In the past couple of days Arnie Gunderson and others have reported that the earthquake caused significant subsidence/ground movement at the reactor complex.  Some subsequent analysis detailed here:

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/05/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-ground-may-hav...

indicates the ground sank as much as 20 inches and moved laterally as much as 8 feet.  If that's true, it had to have damaged the foundations and concrete floors in these buildings.  I'm certain even buildings as massive as these would have to have large cracks in the foundations and bottom floors.  If that's correct then the explanation for how the radioactive water is getting down into the ground water is clear enough.

2.  An alternative explanation might be that reactor one has completely melted through the bottom of the pressure vessel, dumped the full core into the primary containment and then melted through several feet of steel and concrete containment, and kept going through the foundation into bare earth.  Personally, I discount this scenario.  I think the core might have dumped out of the pressure vessel into primary containment, but I'm doubtful it's melted through the primary containment.  I *think* we'd have seen a lot more steam coming out of the lower levels of building #1 if that had happened...but I'm guessing.  If it did happen you'd have cooling water pouring into the reactor, flowing over a hot mass of melted fuel and directly into the groundwater...once again a clear path to groundwater contamination.

 

In addition, the graphite reactor at Chernyobl was half of a single building. This facility is gigantic. It is not at all clear to me that you can encase an area that large in a single structure.

Good points I think.  The similarities between this disaster and Chernobyl are disappearing fast.  It's the differences that are killing us.  As you noted, Chernobyl is one reactor, we have three meltdowns here and two more reactors on site that could follow the first three down the highway to hell if just a few more things go wrong. 

Plus, there were no spent fuel pools with literally tonnes of spent fuel rods in them at Chernobyl. 

Chernobyl was blown wide open which allowed them to air-drop sand, lead and tin directly onto the exposed core.  Here we've got hot fuel that is inaccessable because its still inside massive containment structures that are themselves covered by huge chunks of radioacitve debris.

They *might* build a sarcophagus big enough to contain all three (maybe four) reactors but it would be an engineering marvel under the best of conditions...a nightmare under current conditions.  They might choose to build a coffin for each individual reactor.  Doesn't matter...it's a moot point until they've dealt with the hot fuel AND emptied the spent fuel pools of their load of spent fuel. 

 

And, if the fuel is still fissioning underneath the facility, what is the point of entombing the facility?

No point at all, and in fact technically impossible.  Concrete doesn't cure under extreme temperatures.  Nor can it handle hot gasses bubbling up through it while it's setting.  Gotta deal with the fuel first, and that means removing it, or finding some way to dilute it/spread it out thin enough it can't melt itself anymore.

... it seems like this is going to have to be some thin surface material to stop wind or water migration of particles and a large fence to close off the area for several centuries (classic SciFi stuff, an ancient fence with a rusty sign reading "Keep Out till the year 2950").

 

And there you have it.  What can they possibly do that's going to stay "done" for the next 20,000 years or so?  Not good....not good at all.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 23:47 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

There is a very convincing argument on the fairwinds site that shows the difference between the explosions at reactor 1 (hydrogen deflagration) and reactor 3 (detonation). The explosion from #3, which has the MOX fuel (part plutonium) is easily 2 orders of magnitude more violent.

This led to the conclusion that "prompt criticality" had been caused in the number 3 spent fuel pool. A brief nuclear explosion, which atomized a fair amount of the plutonium, and scattered it across Japan (and perhaps put some into the jet stream).

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 19:36 | Link to Comment Use of Weapons
Use of Weapons's picture

Two things:

#1 Nuking nuclear waste does not make it magically evaporate, nor do radioactive substances work like conventional fuels. It goes up into the atmosphere. Your thinking shows you fundamentally do not understand physics. At this point, you have to step away and trust the smart bears in the room. And stfu. Trust me: nuking 2,000 spent fuel rods and MOX fuels is about the worst thing you can do. P.s. Please do not start breeding until you know why this is the case.

#2 Whilst we do indeed share 90% of our genome with creatures such as earthworms, and chimps and us are indeed only 1-2% apart, these few % points of genetic difference count. Grass growing: great. Mammals coming back really fast? Great. However, again, this shows you know exactly nothing about ecology, biology or biochemistry. Small thought experiment: if Darwin was right, and only the fittest survive, this means the unfit, do not. In your terms: nature appears healthy because those damaged by radiation just do not survive in vitro or ex vitro (fast). Hint: the more complex a system, and the longer lived a system, the more catastrophic the failure is when something breaks the coding. This is why modern life's #2 killer is cancer. Cancer [and aging, btw, but let's not go there, your feeble brain will melt - cancer & aging are sides of the same coin, when one is solved, so is the other] is purely replication errors and cells switching off the 'death before to infinity and beyond' coding.

 

Oh, and comparing a nuclear weapon to a nuclear reactor is also very dumb. They work in totally different ways - or rather, their mid point is the same, but they achieve it in radically different spectra.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 21:07 | Link to Comment Estrella
Estrella's picture

Okay Pinhead,

I asked a question. I received a very good, well thought out response from one ZH poster and I received a very condescending insulting response from you. I have a masters degree in engineering, weak in nuclear physics though, and I worked as an officer on nuclear weapons for a decade. I was simply asking if the nuclear processes involved would fission the fuels to less dangerous elements. One poster calmly educated me that is not the case, and I thank him and another, yours, questioned my genome, education level and in general acted like an ass. 

 

So, here's the deal, I will ignore your postings and in the future you ignore mine. No harm no foul. Or, if that to difficult for you, in which case s.t.f.u yourself.

 

 

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 21:41 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Are you really claiming that you were an "officer on nuclear weapons for a decade" and yet you didn't understand a basic fact about fission materials? I'm not calling you names, just making sure I understand what you are saying. Maybe I don't know what you mean by 'officer'.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 00:31 | Link to Comment Stormdancer
Stormdancer's picture

It is possible CD.  I knew calibration specialists who worked on warheads all the time but probably knew little of nuclear physics.  There's a nuclear sub-culture in each of the armed services and many officers in positions of incredible responsibility that had no need to understand the physics to do their job well.  Those warheads are not weapons that can be built, stuck in a bunker and then pulled out and used 30 years later.  There's a maintenance program required and each weapon is inspected/calibrated every few months so they can be sure it will work as designed if needed.  I don't know what position Estrella might have held but there's lots and lots of people, enlisted and officer corp, who've had pretty intimate relationships with nuclear weapons without needing a physics degree. 

Edit:  The naval nukes that actually run reactors are the exception.  Those boys generally know their stuff.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 19:12 | Link to Comment Plumplechook
Plumplechook's picture

dup.

Tue, 05/17/2011 - 19:15 | Link to Comment Plumplechook
Plumplechook's picture

Wow.  Those Microsoft Project,  Powerpoint, and Excel charts from Tepco really inspire confidence.  Look similar to the bullshit planning charts for dozens of IT projects I've seen go way overtime and way overbudget.

Meanwhile in the real world,  high levels of radioactive Caesium have been found in Tea crops in Kanagawa Prefecture, more than 300 KILOMETERS from Fukushima.  All shipments of tea leaves from the prefecture now suspended.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110517005835.htm

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 00:01 | Link to Comment Fiat2Zero
Fiat2Zero's picture

OK, before any of the nuclear experts on this forum give me any static, I'll give a preemptive STFU. Don't try anything...

There actually is a very good description of nuclear meltdowns in the HitchHiker's Guide to the Gal...er...I mean Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_meltdown

Had we read this, the hydrogen explosions at the outset would have been clear (i.e. not the buildup in the building as TEPCO claimed/lied).

Anyone have any idea what the next phase of this mess is? Do we melt through the 2 meters of concrete? Do we hit groundwater, and then explode upward? How long can this thing keep going (centuries?).

I guess if they don't get something with boron onto it soon (or perhaps the chance is gone), it will stay hot, and get deep into the earth and into their water supply.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 02:58 | Link to Comment Stormdancer
Stormdancer's picture
More goodies from EX-SKF:
Hiroaki Koide of Kyoto University: "Melted Core Outside the Containment Vessel"

Hiroaki Koide of Kyoto University Research Reactor Institute is quoted by Mainichi Shinbun as saying that the melted core of the Reactor 1 is not just out of the Reactor Pressure Vessel but out of the Containment Vessel...

 

...According to TEPCO, the data analysis shows that damage to the RPV is not extensive. However, Koide thinks "The RPV has been completely damaged, the melted core bore a hole at the bottom of the Containment Vessel, causing the large amount of contaminated water to leak into the ground beneath the reactor building."

 

So, a university professor from Kyoto University Research Reactor Institute thinks the core has eaten through both pressure and containment vessels.  I'm sure not in a position to argue with him...

 

If you see a ZH'er by the name of "Lapri" on here, be sure to thank him for his efforts.  He's the one behind http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/ and he's mining japanese language news sites and translating this stuff into english for us.  He comes up with a lot of stuff I don't see anywhere else. 

Thanks Lapri :)

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 04:10 | Link to Comment Stormdancer
Stormdancer's picture

Pressure on the Japanese food supply is increasing:

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110517005442.htm

 

Grazing rights lost over 'radioactive' grass

About 20,000 livestock farmers in seven prefectures have been asked to refrain from grazing cattle for the time being because radioactive substances in excess of safety limits have been found in pastures,...

...Besides Chiba Prefecture, radioactive substances have been found in grass in excess of safety limits in Iwate, Fukushima, Ibaraki, Gunma, Tochigi and Saitama prefectures.

 

Gunma Prefecture:  209 km from Fukushima

Chiba Prefecture:  218 km

Saitama:  212 km

Chiba and Saitama lie on the outskirts of the Greater Tokyo Metroplex.  

 

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110517005835.htm

 

Radiation levels for dried tea leaves that have been minimally processed (ara cha) are said to be five times higher than in just-harvested leaves. Dried tea leaves originally harvested in Minami-Ashigara, Kanagawa Prefecture, were found to contain 3,000 becquerels of radioactive cesium.

 

Minami-Ashigara in Knagawa Prefecture is almost 300 km from Fukushima.  Far south of Tokyo.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 05:36 | Link to Comment Felix-be
Felix-be's picture

http://www.japansubculture.com/2011/05/tokyo-prosecutor-special-investigation-unit-takes-lead-on-tepco-case-as-new-evidence-contradicts-tepco-claims/

 

Tokyo Prosecutor Special Investigation Unit Takes Lead on TEPCO case, as new evidence contradicts TEPCO claims.

Tokyo Prosecutor Special Investigation Unit Takes Lead on TEPCO case, as new evidence contradicts TEPCO claims.

As reported on April 4th here (http://www.japansubculture.com/2011/04/tepco-executives-quietly-under-in...?????????/) Japanese law-enforcement continues their investigation into TEPCO, the managing entity of the Fukushima Nuclear Reactor for charges of professional negligence resulting in death or injury, but now the Tokyo Prosecutor Special Investigation Unit has begun their own independent investigation.

The investigation is focusing on what TEPCO did after the Tsunami as well as before (in terms of criminal negligence). The two individuals most likely to be charged with criminal incompetence resulting in death and/or injury are the CEO at the time and the current chairman. During the first 24 hours after the accident, the chairman and the president were both unaccounted for and/or unreachable considerably delaying countermeasures which could have prevented death, injury and the meltdown. There are also reports that putting sea water into the reactor were delayed as TEPCO executives used political connections to buy time to try and save the reactors, rather than focusing on saving lives and the environment around the reactor.

One thing that is now increasingly coming into question is TEPCO’s assertion that “this accident was beyond the scope of our imagination

 

..."

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 06:55 | Link to Comment Stormdancer
Stormdancer's picture

Well blow me down.  Hopefully somebody will get these TEPCO yahoos out of the decision loop at least and get someone in there that will tackle this thing with a real sense of urgency and a realistic view of the situation.

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 09:27 | Link to Comment intric8
intric8's picture

"Whats the big deal?  whats 10, 20,30,40 or 50 millisieverts/year in the context of the situation?  Kids in Fukushima toast their nuts and ovaries at 15 times+ normal background, big whoop.  Any subsequent cancers will be hard to tie into the nuclear crisis, so lets just kick the can down the road and deal with it much later, damnit..."

http://www.falloutphilippines.blogspot.com/

 

Wed, 05/18/2011 - 22:29 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

No.4 ... where's the VIDEO of its EXPLOSION, TEPCO?

 

Funny how people are focusing on the lesser damaged buildings, when reactor No.4 is overall, the more damaged structure.

What I want to know is WHY we''re apparently NOT ALLOWED to see the video of No.4 exploding.

We all KNOW this video exists and almost certainly exists from multiple angles, and distances.

But has ANYONE seen it publically released yet?

The basic problem I have with this is, No.4 is the most damaged building of all.

Most have by now seen the 'deflagration' and 'detonation' scenarios of Arnie Gundersen for No1 and No3, and how he said the extra damage at No.3, “could only be”, the result of a > supersonic speed detonation energy level.

So what of No.4? Why is it even MORE damaged overall than No.3? Does this not imply the same or slightly higher energy release? Does this not also imply a detonation? If so, from what source

We have actually seen the bottom area of the spent fuel pool in No.4 on video, and we can see it does not appear seriously damaged or melted (I couldn’t clearly see any melt or oxidation damage in there, could you?).

So I ask AGAIN, where did the hydrogen really come from for the blast inside No.4?

Everyone is just assuming that a shutdown for maintenance on the reactor, with the secondary containment flange cover removed means the fuel had been removed from the core, but this is NOT necessarily so! For example, when it was recently stated that the Japanese PM had requested the shutdown of the Hamaoka Reactors

--
“Fuel Rods
Hamaoka, Chubu Electric’s only nuclear plant, has five reactors. Two of them are being decommissioned and one has been idled for maintenance since November.
The utility is yet to decide whether to remove the fuel rods from the reactors, said Akio Miyazaki, a spokesman for Chubu Electric.
“When we shut reactors for scheduled inspections, which normally take three to five months, we often take out the rods and move them to the spent-fuel pools, depending on the type of work
[i.e. sometimes they don't],” Miyazaki said by telephone today. “It’s possible [which means, sometimes we don't!] we may move them to spent-fuel pools during the shutdown period.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-12/chubu-to-start-shutting-hamaoka...

--

Read it, sometimes they don't remove the fuel rods (but I strongly suspect they are required to).

The Japanese operators are not going to necessarily always remove the fuel rods from the cores, if they don’t really have to, in order to perform maintenance on a reactor. Above is a clear frank admission that they routinely don’t remove the rods from the cores for maintenance sometimes, so when I say that I think/access that the physical evidence I see at Fukushima Daiichi indicates that the rods were STILL IN THE CORE when the quake it, don’t discount it.

1)    the fuel pool racks at no.4 are not seriously damaged or destroyed by either an explosion, melt or fire, so what occurred at No.3, is NOT what also occurred at No.4
2)    The roof structure is still attached to No.4! i.e. no vertical blast, yet similar damage levels as No.3!
3)    The walls of No.4 are arguably the most damaged of all the reactors, though comparable to No.3 - just worse.
4)    Most of the  steam/vapor is emitting from the reactor port area of No.4, not from the SFP itself! Check the videos, and check the high-res images to see where MOST of the vapor is coming from.

How is this possible, unless the fuel rods were still in the core of No.4?

Open your eyes and have a close look at those videos of No.4, and look at the condition of the building, and the way the explosion has moved through it.

Satisfy yourself with evidence (if you can) that I’m wrong – I bet you don’t manage to.

Because if you can’t, I may have been right all along, the fuel was still in the core of No.4, and we’ve got FOUR complete core meltdowns and primary containment breaches, not three.

Has this simply been hidden? But if so, they can’t keep hiding it, it will come out, someone will spill the beans, and they know it.

Ask yourself, why we are not seeing the videos of No.4’s demise? Why are TEPCO and the Japanese Govt being permitted to bury this major explosion of a fucking nuclear reactor? Why have we not demanded to see what actually happened to No.4? Seriously A HUGE REACTOR EXPLODED!

Don't you want to know how and why - and why this video footage was specifically not released to the public?

What are they scared of us seeing? What is it they dearly do not want us to see?

I only went quiet about the possibility of No.4 having fuel in its core because "real data", real numbers were being logged and finally released to the public, which suggested to me that the operators had a far better idea of what was really going on -at that point. So I was prepared to shutup and trust their stories (somewhat), but now we find out that the water level data in No.1 primary containment was totally wrong all along! Indeed, it appears they knew this and were simply lieing to us all along, as they knew without any doubt that the cores were completely kaput by dawn on March 15th (as I have previously pointed out in great detail in my earlier comments on each reactor).

So now we know that the water level 'data' in the cores of No2 and No3 were also bollocks - as well!

i.e. the 'data' they were feeding the public was fake - and they knew it!

So where's the video of No.4 exploding?

You're attempting to try to hide the truth about No.4 TEPCO, that much is clear.

 

Thu, 05/19/2011 - 03:05 | Link to Comment silberblick
silberblick's picture

Off topic, but ....thought you might be interested.

YouTube's Harisebon7777777 should be commended for his work on measuring the radiation levels in Tokyo. The device he uses costs about $1000, which I am sure he has paid out of his own pocket to provide us with the truth of what is really going on in Japan.

It is eerie to watch his videos. Typically, his hand is shown holding a geiger counter in some public place with people walking all around him as if there was nothing of importance going on; while all along, the geiger counter in his hand reveals what is really happening. Harisebon is documenting the slow irradiation of the Japanese archipelago. A visual unfolding of a tragedy.

While watching these videos. it is hard not to wonder how many of the folks one sees walking down the street will come down with cancer in 10, 20 or 30 years.

Go to Harisebon's YouTube channel and give him a shout-out. He deserves it.

http://fukushimadisaster.blogspot.com/2011/05/radiation-harajiku-omotesa...

Tue, 05/22/2012 - 02:07 | Link to Comment tianbian
tianbian's picture

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