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Thermal Images From Fukushima Indicate Blistering 128 Degrees Celsius Zone In Reactor #3

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Thermal images from Fukushima have just been released. One is based on data from Die Welt, the other one comes straight from NHK.

First, from NHK:

Next, a picture from Die Welt, emphasizing Reactor 3 and confirming that previous lies that all temperatures at Reactors 1 through 4, were under 100 degrees Celsius, were nothing but. Note the area indicating 128 oC Celsius. We would assume that is the reactor core area (which refutes the lie). If, instead, that is the spent fuel rod area, then we have some very big problems, even if TEPCO is telling the truth for once.

 


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Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:15 | Link to Comment perchprism
perchprism's picture

Dude, it means there isn't any water.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:30 | Link to Comment New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

+1, and still chuckling ;-)

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 20:42 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

i'm not "joking" so "how can it be on me"?  this is nuclear power and you're the xpert right now.  and now i've learned something.  isn't it interesting "you have nothing to say about the glow from number 2."  that would be the INTACT containment facility.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:19 | Link to Comment SuperRay
SuperRay's picture

Well, yes, it's 1000 C when it's working and contained, and doing what it's supposed to do.

I think that you just won the Moron of the Day award. Congratulations...

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 20:46 | Link to Comment Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"Well, yes, it's 1000 C when it's working and contained"

Actually no, it's not.

1000 C PCL wouldn't even be reached during the DBA condition and steam-cooling.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:59 | Link to Comment Thorlyx
Thorlyx's picture

not anymore. The ministery has just raised the temperature for boiling water. Now it boils at minimum 130°C.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:03 | Link to Comment MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

At what temperature does water boil bitch? You don't know? Anyone can help here? Class?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:05 | Link to Comment cornedmutton
cornedmutton's picture

What pressure, bitch?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:08 | Link to Comment Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Is it a pressure cooker making broasted potatoes?  I love those things.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:59 | Link to Comment SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Sea level bitch.  Take a look at those photos.   You see anything that can actually contain water under pressure, BITCH? 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:21 | Link to Comment cornedmutton
cornedmutton's picture

Then I guaran-fucking-tee you that the pools are not at 128C, smart ass.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:54 | Link to Comment SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Exactly, they aren't POOLS any more @ 128 C = NO freakin water.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:07 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

+128+!

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:07 | Link to Comment Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

That's easy.  It boils at the same temperature as when those little bubbles appear.  And just about when it hurts like a son-of-a-bitch when it touches your skin.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:09 | Link to Comment camaro68ss
camaro68ss's picture

well dident you hear, japan changed the degree of water to boil from 100C to 200C, so its safe now and there is water in the pool

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:28 | Link to Comment sharkbait
sharkbait's picture

LOL

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:31 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
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well dident you hear, japan changed the degree of water to boil from 100C to 200C, so its safe now and there is water in the pool

 

+ TEPCO Propaganda for the day

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:15 | Link to Comment DollarMenu
DollarMenu's picture

@ McCreant:

At normal elevations, water boils at 212 degrees F, or 100 degrees C.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:34 | Link to Comment New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

I'll have fries with that.

Sea water standard pressure ~102 DegC since we don't know composition and who'z able to measure anyway?

- Ned

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:06 | Link to Comment Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"You do know that the operating temp for these reactors is most likely in the 550 to 650C"

Ummm, you are talking about Peak Centerline Fuel Temperature here - right?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:06 | Link to Comment cornedmutton
cornedmutton's picture

No, peak centerline temps would be much higher.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:30 | Link to Comment Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

Aha!  That's why the site went screwey for me - you were replying to a post I was editing.

Anyway - are you sure of your numbers?  To hit a PCL of 1000C, you would have easily violated your LHGR.  The highest postulated temps were lower than that in an accident condition.  KW/FT would be almost unmeasurable at that temp.

 

"You do know that the operating temp for these reactors is most likely in the 550 to 650C"

Ummm, you are talking about Peak Centerline Fuel Temperature here - right?  If you are talking coolant temperatures (and clad external temps - in the upper regions) then you are a little off.  Normal Tave would be closer to 500 degrees Farenheit.  Check it our for yourself - go to the steam tables and see what saturation temperature for 1000 psig (1014.7 psia) steam is (100% quality).  If you're a sadist, you can find the same thing on the saturation curve on a Mollier Diagram for pure water.

 

BTW - I didn't junk you.  I'm just askin'....

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:29 | Link to Comment avonaltendorf
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I love this joint.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:36 | Link to Comment New_Meat
Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:32 | Link to Comment cornedmutton
cornedmutton's picture

I'm making some assumptions here based on my experience with PWRs.  Since these are BWRs I am unsure as to the actual, prescribed range for Tave (or whatever they control).

Yes, I meant F and not C. Force of habit.

Are your sure these vessels are operated at or about 1000 psig?  What makes you think they don't go higher?  The systems I worked with were limited in this range, but commercial sites would make use of much bigger, thicker containment vessels (as mass is not a primary concern). I don't know enough about this particular design to quote known figures, but 128C does not overly concern me.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:38 | Link to Comment crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

Excuse me if I come off trying to simplify here.  I may be wrong, but if..

Water boils at 100 degress C, higher pressure raises the boiling point = simple

Spent fuel rods are sitting in open pools, with no increased pressure = boiling at 100 degrees C = water is boiling = not good

So, 128C is a BIG concern if that is the temp of water in an open pool, not a pressure cooker. 

As was discussed before, the big problem lies with those open pools that hold the spent fuel rods.  No containment dome, no pressure cooker to increase the boiling point. 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:52 | Link to Comment cornedmutton
cornedmutton's picture

Actually, if the "pool water" is at 128C, then there is no water at all.  When you boil water, attempting to further heat the solution only results in more vigorous boiling, not higher temperatures.  The water temperature will not increase above 100C as this is the boiling point (at 1atm, i.e. sea level) and all the energy is going into changing the water to steam (latent heat of vaporization). If you want to go higher you'd either have to pressurize the system, to allow for a higher saturation point, or boil the pool dry, effectively removing the sink and allowing for nearly unbound increases.  Hence my question: 'at what pressure?'

So, to recap, based on the reported temps, either:

a) the system is partially pressurized, or

b) there is no water in the pool(s) - assuming what we're actually looking at are the spent rod containment areas

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:02 | Link to Comment jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

This might be what is causing some of the "explosions" they refer to as ongoing all the time. Water hammer is a bitch, and it can rupture pipes and vessels.  The hotter this gets and they try to put cool water on it, look the F**K out.  I wouldn't want to be standing near it.

I am an engineer that works on boilers and chillers, and I can tell you, these reactors use the same concept as high pressure boilers, and low water without stopping the fuel, which in the nuclear reactor case is the rods, you are making a bomb if under pressure. I doubt they are under extreme pressure with the damage to the buildings though, but they probably have enough pressure on them to cause problems.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:03 | Link to Comment crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

Gotcha, great explanation. 

The thing to look for is location of those open pools, which reactor do those sit in?

Is it #4?  I can't remember. 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:56 | Link to Comment Plumplechook
Plumplechook's picture

There are spent fuel pools in all of the reactors - as well as another 'common' pool somewhere else on the site that has the biggest number of spent fuel rods.   I'm assuming TEPCO have focussed their dousing efforts on reactor 3 because it holds the MOX fuel.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:29 | Link to Comment Man Bear Pig
Man Bear Pig's picture

A good point made by someone else is that the white part of the termal image is actually >=128C. Temperatures could be >500C but you wouldn't be able to tell from the image alone.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:01 | Link to Comment Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

... is that the white part of the thermal image is actually >=128C

- - - - - - - - - - -

A good chance that the IR detector/the focal plane array sensor is saturated, and, that's the max output of some A/D (analog to digital) stage or maybe in software somewhere; when the image goes to all white, that's a pretty good indication of saturation ...

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:43 | Link to Comment Weaseldog
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You're assuming that there has been no damage to the site and water under pressure can be pumped in.

In this case, the containment and cooling ponds can't hold pressure and they are trying to cool them with helicopter drops.

Consider a simple though experiment...

 

1. Intact pressure cooker, heated to 128c.

2. Partially exploded, cracked and broken pressure cooker, heated to 128c.

 

Is there a difference in the way they operate?

 

I'm not sure some folks understand that a nuclear reactor that exploded and is giving off lethal levels of radiation, is not operating normally.

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:50 | Link to Comment crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

Exactly my point above.  No pressure in those open pools, which is the bigger problem anyway.  100c is boiling. 

ZH'ers can get a little techy, and I love that.  But all that jargon above means absolutely nothing in regards to those open pools.   

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:04 | Link to Comment Iam_Silverman
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"Are your sure these vessels are operated at or about 1000 psig? "

Yes.  That is at around 10% power (electric).  At close to rated power (approximately 750MW electric <-assuming no power uprate) the steam pressure can be as low 920 psig.

"What makes you think they don't go higher?"

Two things:

1 - I was an operator at one commercial BWR, and a maintenance technician at another.

2 - The settings for the safety valves start at around 1150 psig, if I remember correctly.  Since you are familiar with PWR's, then think of the BWR reactor acting as a S/G - the parameters will be essentially the same.  In fact, the upper core internals are built just like the upper head region of the PWR S/G's, equipped with primary and secondary moisture removal devices!

 

"128C does not overly concern me."

The implication is that the Spent Fuel Pool has reached a temperature where any water that would provide shielding and cooling (to remove decay heat) has been vaporized.  The good news is that since water can act as a moderator (and it's gone), there cannot be a sustained nuclear reaction.  The decay heat will continue to build up to the point where the outer clad may rupture, releasing the fission products held inside.  The maximum temperatures will depend on time   since core offload and overall fuel bundle density.  What is really bad is if they hadn't gotten around to unchanneling the bundles removed during the last refueling outage.  Those 12X12 arrays can hold in a lot of heat if still in the channel!

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:18 | Link to Comment cornedmutton
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OK, I understand the reactors you've worked on had a saturated steam pressure of between 920 and 1020 psig or so, but again, what makes you so sure these reactors operate at similiar points? Can you confirm based on design designations and known configuration information?  That's what I'm really asking.

And regarding the pools at 128C, see my post above:

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/thermal-images-fukushima-indicate-blistering-128-degrees-celsius-zone-reactor-3#comment-1082924

My point is either the pool has been pressurized somehow to allow for the higher boiling temperature, or we're being lied to.  I wonder which one it is...

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:26 | Link to Comment jkruffin
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I think it's pretty clear, we are being lied to by the MSM and the Japanese authorities.

The NRC Commissioner gave the word to evacuate Americans, they are even evacuating people well away from the reactor site.

I have friends at Yokota Air Base, far away from the site, and they are evacuating them except for eseential personnel.  This is bigger than what is being let on, because they don't want the markets worldwide to crash again.  What other reason would they be lying?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:06 | Link to Comment flattrader
flattrader's picture

>>>I have friends at Yokota Air Base, far away from the site, and they are evacuating them except for eseential personnel.<<<

Hmmm...

What is the point of recognition when markets go "Oh, fuck!"?

It happened for me when I saw reactor #3 blow...yet I watch the spx tic higher.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:21 | Link to Comment Matte_Black
Matte_Black's picture

What is the point of recognition when markets go "Oh, fuck!"?

My alcohol consumption increased to new 'safe levels' when the nuclear physicist began weeping in public. But the markets seem bulletproof. so I dunno....

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:02 | Link to Comment Meridian
Meridian's picture

Seawater boils at a higher temp. Any "impurity" you add to water elevates it's boiling point.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:25 | Link to Comment jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

Actually, the boiling point of salt water is not much different than pure water, depending on the concentration 1 or 2 degrees.  Salt water will just boil faster. A quick way to find out is to try it on your stove. The more salty the water, the faster it will boil.  It boils roughly the same temperature, just the temperature gets there faster.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 20:59 | Link to Comment Iam_Silverman
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"what makes you so sure these reactors operate at similiar points? Can you confirm based on design designations and known configuration information? "

Yes.  GE BWR-4 with Mark I containments all pretty much are the same.  Aside from the steering wheel being on the wrong side, a Toyota Tercel sold in Japan is pretty much the same as one marketed in the U.S.

If you want to go superheated - where would the additional heat come from?  You could add gas or other fossil-fuel powered post-reactor superheaters, but why?  If you go with the pretty much industry standard turbines, you can get repair parts and upgraded components anywhere, any time.

Here's another reason - containment (drywell) volume.  Remember, any reactor containment must be designed to withstand the pressure and temperature buildup from the worst case postulated accident (DBA).  For both BWR's and PWR's, the Design Base Accident assumes that a major part of the coolant system falls off (double-ended shear) or the bottom of the vessel falls off.  In order to contain higher operating pressures, your drywell would need to be much larger.  If you are used to a PWR, then you would be amazed at how compact a BWR drywell is.  It is truly confined.

"My point is either the pool has been pressurized somehow to allow for the higher boiling temperature, or we're being lied to"

OK, I'll hit this one more time.  If the surface temperature of the exposed fuel assemblies is indicated to be > 128 C, then there is no water in said pool.  It is now a stainless steel - lined concrete box that is open at the top.  I don't know if I can explain it any better than that.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 21:16 | Link to Comment defender
defender's picture

A question for the both of you, since you seem to be well informed on the subject:  What about the Boric Acid that they were making such a big to-do about when this thing first went wild.  Did they add it too the pool as insurance?  Wiki says bp for Boric Acid is 170C, so the temperature listed is possible for that kind of a system.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 21:53 | Link to Comment Iam_Silverman
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"What about the Boric Acid that they were making such a big to-do about when this thing first went wild"

Well, I can only offer conjecture since the reports never were that clear.  When a BWR doesn't completely shut down, or fails to "scram", that is what the industry calls an "ATWOS" or "ATWT" - Activity Transient Without Scram or Activity Transient Without Trip.  Boron has a natural affinity for absorbing neutrons in the "thermal" range.  Those are the neutrons necessary for a sustained chain reaction.  If the Boron absorbs those neutrons instead of them being absorbed in the fuel, then the reactor will eventually shut down.  This is the same thing that the control rods do - absorb excess thermal neutrons.  At first I was assuming that they were pumping in the Boric Acid from the SLC (Standby Liquid Control) system into the reactor to maintain it shut down (control shutdown margin).  Later, once I started hearing about the dire condition of the Spent Fuel Pools, I figured that is where they were adding the Boron.  Most SFP's with high-density racks are already Borated to about 2400 ppm.

So, to answer your question - I can't.  I have discussed the two most likely uses of the Boron, but the reports are just not specific enough for me to tell you where they were injecting it.  My guess is the reactor to maintain shutdown margin.

Spent Fuel Pools are an enigma.  You need to keep them cooled in order to prevent fuel cladding damage.  They are immersed in cool water.  Herein lies the catch - the cool water acts as a better moderator (thermalizes fast neutrons) and this lends itself to restarting the nuclear chain reaction.  That is why used fuel bundle spacing and absorber density (borated cooling water and borated aluminum fuel racks) is so critical (pun intended).

Tue, 03/22/2011 - 23:45 | Link to Comment defender
defender's picture

Informative, thank you.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:44 | Link to Comment New_Meat
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corn:

"I'm making some assumptions here based on my experience with PWRs. "

ya, then your mind is going to be all fubar for a while.  GE/Hitachi/Toshiba-san can't get its collective mind wrapped around DNBR, in fact, they think it is natural.  They also think it is natural for control rods to be inserted from the bottom, contrary to gravity.

and nfw 1,000 psi anything.  BWR economics are all about lower first-cost.

Avoiding vessel thermal shock (==> using spray mist vs. solid water) leading to rupture is my guess at this point. b bad to fracture the whole puppy vs. even cracz that could be sorta' sealed.

you're a playa'

- Ned

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 21:06 | Link to Comment Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"They also think it is natural for control rods to be inserted from the bottom, contrary to gravity."

Well, it does make for an amazingly quick refueling outage - the head literally pops off with no fussing around with stupid IRPI stacks and then having to uncouple the drives too.

Another point is that even rods inserted from the top are not always guaranteed to go in.  There have been evens where rods have been ejected from the core due to steam explosions (local supercriticality in the face of reduced coolant flow due to obstructions).  The direction of coolant flow in a BWR goes up - to assist the rods.  The coolant flow in a PWR also goes up - against rod insertion.

 

Just points to ponder.  None of that makes their situation any better though.  I really feel for those guys that are operators there.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:07 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

so you would prefer to see your "obliterated nuclear power station" running at "full power" then?  that's an interesting definition of "shut down."  and of course "these reactors have all been shut down."  so what precisely "keeps them running" then?  as a "know-nothing on nukes" let's just say "i'm confused."  not that it matters of course, right?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:07 | Link to Comment Weaseldog
Weaseldog's picture

Small point of order...

 

These reactors are not supposed to be operating...

 

The point about Japan claiming they are under 100c, is to prove that the rods are immersed in water and cooling. At 128c, there would be no water. It would all boil away.

 

Remember, the structure is cracked and cannot hold pressure. So it can't reach higher temps and still have coolant in it.

 

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:08 | Link to Comment cornedmutton
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If there were NO water, rad levels would be through the roof. People would receive a lethal dose in hours, if not minutes.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:12 | Link to Comment tallen
tallen's picture

5 of the workers have already died at 15 are seriously ill:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367929/Japan-nuclear-power-plan...

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:30 | Link to Comment JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Holy chit! I didn't know that. Suicide mission then.

It's probably past time to abandon ship and bury the damn things, aka the Chernobyl solution. 

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:23 | Link to Comment jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

Indeed, anyone working around these facilities is really on a death trip. No company, and I don't care who it is, could pay me enough to work around these reactors in their condition. The ones that are doing it, they gotta be paying these guys and/or their families some serious cash, because they will not be living a full life.

Also, thos respirators those guys are wearing are worthless. They should be using a PAPA, or SCBA equipment. The ones they have; well, they are just breathing in radiation like mad, and cooking their lungs.

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:52 | Link to Comment New_Meat
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jkruffin: then you don't understand what is going on at all. - Ned

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:25 | Link to Comment jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

You mean the scam of the century?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 20:07 | Link to Comment New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

;-) we got a lotta' century to go thru.

but Fed >>>> this shit.

- Ned

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:17 | Link to Comment CPL
CPL's picture

They are dying to save their friends, family and foes.

 

Poor bastards...cooked alive and get to feel their organs shut down one by one.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:50 | Link to Comment cornedmutton
cornedmutton's picture

worky now

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 19:01 | Link to Comment reader2010
reader2010's picture

They need carry out Kamikazi sorties now. 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 20:12 | Link to Comment New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

chain 'em in-->target = 33 Liberty?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:23 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

when last i checked "these six reactors were next to the ocean."  i hear "the ocean contains water."  if "the ocean" were "rushing in from the get go" then "these lethal doses" would be..."dissipated"(???) by "chef's salty chocolate.." but i digress.  again "i am a know nothing on nukes" and "why should i care anyways"?  just "quizicating" as i say.  people have said "they are suprised by the SUDDEN appearance of explosions."  which made me wonder....

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:16 | Link to Comment VisualCSharp
VisualCSharp's picture

What's up with all the "quotes?"

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:10 | Link to Comment Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

"disabled"

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 19:11 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"vet."  add's "aura of factuality."  i've "t'med" it however.  do not try or else...

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 20:05 | Link to Comment Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

"aura of culpability." I could buy that ...

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 20:47 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"yes."

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:13 | Link to Comment Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"You do know that the operating temp for these reactors is most likely in the 550 to 650C"

Ummm, you are talking about Peak Centerline Fuel Temperature here - right?  If you are talking coolant temperatures (and clad external temps - in the upper regions) then you are a little off.  Normal Tave would be closer to 500 degrees Farenheit.  Check it our for yourself - go to the steam tables and see what saturation temperature for 1000 psig (1014.7 psia) steam is (100% quality).  If you're a sadist, you can find the same thing on the saturation curve on a Mollier Diagram for pure water.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:18 | Link to Comment InconvenientCou...
InconvenientCounterParty's picture

y'know what's fun, mutton chops?

thinking were fucked, then finding out things are going to be fine. I'm waiting.

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:17 | Link to Comment MSimon
MSimon's picture

You do know that the operating temp for these reactors is most likely in the 550 to 650C range, right?

 

Sure. But that is for an intact reactor. If it is in pieces the allowable operating temperature is a lot lower.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:00 | Link to Comment defn8Dog
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And how does this relate to today's topic, the AT&T merger?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:01 | Link to Comment Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

You mean the one used to push deutsche telecom up 15% but will be scuttled by the regulators?  I'm not sure.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:29 | Link to Comment iDealMeat
iDealMeat's picture

The $ 20B in Ben bucks from JPM says it gets the green-light..

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:01 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Again, it matters what day and time these were taken. As we have seen with units 3 and 4 in particular, but sometimes even with unit 2, there appears to be a flare up and then subsidence based upon the radiation, smoke and/or steam.

So when exactly were these taken. Then we can cross reference these with news events.......assuming we are getting news real time......which is a big assumption.

Never mind. When does March Madness start up again this week? No, I mean the other March Madness.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:02 | Link to Comment nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

That temperature is before or after the water cannons?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:14 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

you mean "the radiation spreader."  Heat of course is "radiating" so "it need not be harmful"...per se.  Nu par ruski?  And why is Collective Soul selling GMC pick up trucks now?  WTF?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:24 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

"And why is Collective Soul selling GMC pick up trucks now?  WTF?"

Shit!  That pretty much seals it, the world has gone completely bare-assed bonkers and we're fucked!

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 20:15 | Link to Comment New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

MnM sold out

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:04 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
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Yes, I was going to say the same thing but you beat me to it.

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:03 | Link to Comment Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

It might accidently be an image from above my house after Purdue got bitch slapped by VCU.  The heat from my skull was roundabout that same temperature with steam flowing steadily from my ears.  I splashed beer down my throat to cool it down.

Just trying to cover all bases.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:08 | Link to Comment alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

I'm pretty sure that the hotspot in that image represents where the BoJ had it's reserves of USD's stored...hence the meltdown.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:10 | Link to Comment Judge Judy Scheinlok
Judge Judy Scheinlok's picture

"Again, it matters what day and time these were taken."

It's the first time I didn't mentally junk you.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:14 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Don't worry, I mentally junk you all the time so we are even.

Lunch? I always want to see if you were naked under those robes. You do squirm around a lot when on TV. :>)

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:36 | Link to Comment mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

Get a lead-lined room, you two.

 

Fed delenda est.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:26 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

First image says 20th day  of the month

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:26 | Link to Comment bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Right, but TEPCO and the Japanese government have not exactly been the purview of honesty.

I'm not sure I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.  

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:34 | Link to Comment alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

today is yesterday when viewed from outer space.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:42 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Now where is that pesky international date line? I know I put it somewhere. And are they ahead of the USA in our shared reality or behind and thus downwind? Finally, will all that radiation distort the space time continuum or just melt the ice cream in my Mr. Frosty?

So many questions, so little time before 12-21-2012. :>)

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:50 | Link to Comment iDealMeat
iDealMeat's picture

Intl. Date line sits on 180º long..  But it gets all squirly in the South pacific and between Alaska and Russia.. That's because time doesn't really exist. Its a measurement, like feet, meters, or fathoms..

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:01 | Link to Comment Misean
Misean's picture

BoJ printers got that beat.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:00 | Link to Comment PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

It is bad, very bad. The Japanese gov should have acted faster sooner.

Just as sad are the analysts who are painting this a "postive thing" for Japan.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:02 | Link to Comment MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

That just boils, don't it?

 

Boil thou first i' the charmed pot!

Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and caldron bubble.

Fillet of a fenny snake,
    In the caldron boil and bake;
    Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
    Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
    Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
    Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,—
    For a charm of powerful trouble,
    Like a hell-broth boil and bubble. 

Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and caldron bubble.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:57 | Link to Comment New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Ms. dang, I'm within the exclusion zone from Salem, MA as well as USS Salem, e.g.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Salem_%28CA-139%29

But, if you notice carefully, there are no .. er .. 'porcine' references in the rhyme! 'whew'

- Ned

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:02 | Link to Comment tj3
tj3's picture

Date/Time Stamp for photos?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:01 | Link to Comment Weaseldog
Weaseldog's picture

Sarcasm?

 

JIC...

 

It's a problem when the pools are supposed to be full of water, which boils at 100c...

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:10 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

But it doesn't take a boiling temperature for water to evaporte.......which is one of the subtle disinformation methods being used. Think about it for a second. Puddles on the road or water in a glass will eventually evaporate at 50-60 degrees F. Water boiling is simply much more energetic than not boiling. But put a pot of water on the stove and bring it up to 150 degree F and it will still evaporate away, just not as fast as at 212 degrees F.

They seem to want to push the message that as long as the water is below boiling things are "better" in some way not exactly described. Not necessarily. The evaporation train is simply going at 100 MPH or 150 MPH instead of 212 MPH. Still want to stand on the tracks?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:14 | Link to Comment Drachma
Drachma's picture

Good point. Only makes 128C that much worse than 80 or 90 or 100C.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:39 | Link to Comment DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

my blood boils well below 100C. Whatever temperature I read the news 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 21:52 | Link to Comment Obaminator
Obaminator's picture

Or it makes 128 C "that much" better than uh...like 1371 C...as in the temp where the fuel actually starts melting, and the Zircalloy Tubes which house the Fuel Pellots can ignite, causing a radioactive fire.

128 is even "Way Better" than the 275-300 C steam presure system that drives the turbines.

when you hear of something glowing Red-Hot..then get excited, before that, everything is being hyped up so the media can get your attention and the advertisers can advertise away.

Most likely there are 32 pools of solidified Uranium/Plutonium that were a hot melted mess 8 days ago, and now they are hot, but so mch water was dumped on them, like molten steel at a steel factory, that they are no longer reacting, and now are hot but solid...a GOOD thing!

Did I leave the cofee pot on again! Damn!

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:22 | Link to Comment Weaseldog
Weaseldog's picture

I understand your point.

 

What they are trying to prove is that the water cannons and other emergency measures are actually cooling the reactors and ponds.

 

With outside temps measured well above boiling, this notion is dispelled. They can't get water in fast enough to flood the reactors and pools.

 

Flooding is important because it buffers the radiation and reaction rate.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:50 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

How do we know they are effectively cooling the reactors/pools if we don't know the before temps?

Forget boiling water and outside temps. It's all about the poo. This is what someone (don't know who or how extensive) is telling the kids in Japan about this nuclear disaster.

"My tummy hurts. I can't hold my poo any longer. Nuclear boy is notorious for his stinky poo."

http://2leep.com/bar.php?url=http://2leep.com/news/155452/0/more/

h/t aristarchan

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:34 | Link to Comment Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

Better pic of today's unit 3 fire is (currently) near the bottom of this discussion thread.  Can it be reposted here?  Nasty stuff.  Exactly what I didn't want to see.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3200633

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:33 | Link to Comment jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

Nice stuff, I was particularly informed by this:

The Finnish Radiation and Nuclear Safety Authority STUK has contacted their Japanese counterpart. The STUK simulated the usage of seawater to cool down the reactor core in a series of tests in the early 90's. They concluded, that this prosedure should only be done for a very short period of time.

After the water evaporates it leaves the salt behind. When the salt solution becomes strong enough to crystallize it would block the core cooling circuit. (QUESTION: at what percentage does a salt solution form salt crystals) After this the salt is allmost impossible to remove and it would prevent the cooling of the core.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:30 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

this is true!  of course "water can be exploded outward" too!  as in "my swimming pool just blew up!"  this can, so i hear, cause "instant drainage."  again "i am know nothing on nuclear." as in "if your plant explodes don't call, don't write, don't even say you have a problem."

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:38 | Link to Comment Weaseldog
Weaseldog's picture

Exactly!

 

It's perfectly normal to see a swimming pool explode and then heat to 128c.

 

That means everything is under control.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:59 | Link to Comment J.B. Books
J.B. Books's picture

Great point!  What I'd like to know is what is the upper range of temps that pic scale has.  If, I'm guessing, red is >127C?

Books

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:03 | Link to Comment apberusdisvet
apberusdisvet's picture

Short Sushi

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:03 | Link to Comment williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Surprise!!!!!

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:13 | Link to Comment Judge Judy Scheinlok
Judge Judy Scheinlok's picture

Seems to me that you can do better than that.

Break out your thermal palette and make her glow.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:04 | Link to Comment Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"We would assume that is the reactor core area"

The region shown as being (much) hotter than the surrounding area is consistent with where the fuel pool would be - not the reactor itself.  I'm not sure that the labels are correct.  It may be that the arrows are not precisely placed.  That large white-hot blob is most certainly NOT 62 degrees C.!  What concerns me are the four hot areas surrounding what would be the primary containment (drywell).  Those look like the "diagonals" (or ECCS equipment rooms) where the two Core Spray and two RHR pump rooms are.  That is bad.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:42 | Link to Comment avonaltendorf
avonaltendorf's picture

I must be stupid. The reactor buildings are strewn with debris from roof, crane, catwalks and the reactor isn't exactly open to the sky -- so what are these thermal images measuring, from how high in the sky?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:07 | Link to Comment Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

The SFP and four quadrants surrounding the drywell.  The quadrants hold the pumps that would be used to cool/flood the actual reactor vessel (loacted in the drywell) and to provide cooling for the suppression pool / containment spray.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 19:24 | Link to Comment PhattyBuoy
PhattyBuoy's picture

My reading suggests core spraying & inlet ducts /outlet ducts are wasted - probably days ago.

Once the core rod pool runs dry, the rods melt, and the internal cooling systems are toasted right away.

Has the core collapsed through control rod structures, into the "bottom head" ... ?!

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 21:13 | Link to Comment Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"My reading suggests core spraying & inlet ducts /outlet ducts are wasted - probably days ago."

Huh?  Those are hard-piped vessel penetrations, not some flimsy ductwork.  The Core Spray system uses (2) approximately 4,500 GPM pumps with separate spray rings inside the reactor vessel.  These are located above the upper core plat and the nozzles (really just drilled holes) are designed to spray down onto the core.

"Once the core rod pool runs dry, the rods melt, and the internal cooling systems are toasted right away."

OK, I'm confused now.  Are you talking about the Spent Fuel Pool or the Reactor Core itself?  Two distinctly separate entities.

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:06 | Link to Comment 10kby2k
10kby2k's picture

 

This reactor will be entombed. Wean its news out of the public spotlight. Continue on all reactors planned world wide. Minimize public perception of any contamination.

If it doesn't go boom...the nuclear industry is unscathed.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:11 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

If you're worried about this, you're probably one of those on the lunatic fringe who also believes the U.S., European and Asian Central Banks are engaging in disastrous monetary policy, you probably believe gold is actually worth something, you probably believe that housing is in a death spiral, and you probably believe that there's a real risk of systemic shock to the global economy from fiat printing, a middle east in meltdown mode, Japan's humanitarian and economic crisis caused by an earthquake, tsunami and an alleged nuclear catastrophe in the making.

Further, you probably also believe that U.S. unemployment is far higher than officialy stated, that CPI isn't an accurate, best and good faith measure of inflation, that Wall Street is not a net contributor to the nation's wealth and prosperity, and that your 'elected' politicians don't have your best interests as sovereign citizens at heart.

You are, indeed, most certainly troublesome muckrakers, and you are causing The Ministry of Truth & Reality serious consternation.

Now, you are advised to cease and desist from making any more claims, whether you possess supporting evidence therefore, until the market closes at 4 p.m. est today.

 

-- The Owners

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 19:57 | Link to Comment mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

Dude.  You left out the Tesla weapon.

 

Fed delenda est.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:06 | Link to Comment squexx
squexx's picture

And the DOW rises.............

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:15 | Link to Comment Thorlyx
Thorlyx's picture

March 86, few weeks before chernobyl the dow was passing 1800. Look where it is now, do the math and you will know where it will be in 25 years. Buy the fucking dip !

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:09 | Link to Comment mogul rider
mogul rider's picture

Whoa is that?

Is that?

Is that Tiny Tim bending over for the chairsatan?

 

Oh Timmy, Oh Timmy

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:10 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Cog Dis is correct, when are images from?

All that being said, this does not look good from any angle...

BTW, I have not commented at length on the Fukushima situation if only because I do not know any details to firmly base my assessment of the situation on. Very guarded optimism is about all I can hope for. As bad as it is, it does not mean the end of the world...  

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:23 | Link to Comment mirac
mirac's picture

The end of the world is more of a "local experience thing"

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:34 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Wasn't it always?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:12 | Link to Comment JR
JR's picture

WHO KNEW? that Buffett was a student of the philosophy of Nathan Rothschild.

Remember Nathan Rothschild’s investment advice: “The time to buy is when there’s blood in the streets"?

Now, Buffett says the time to buy is when the tsunami waters ravish the people of Japan: "Frequently, something out of the blue like this, an extraordinary event, really creates a buying opportunity.”

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:06 | Link to Comment New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

JR, check when snowball bent GE, GS, CEG and who knows who else? over the table and had his way with them.

CEG paid like $1BB for rent on $5BB for a month back in the disaster in '08.  Then were 'saved' by EdF.

But of course, snowball is long term buy n hold!

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=buffett&sts=t&tn=%22the...

- Ned

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 22:41 | Link to Comment JR
JR's picture

Greetings, Ned.

Thanks for the pertinent point... I really appreciate it.

Noticed after your mention that it was announced Friday that Goldman will buy back Buffett’s preferred stock for the amount he paid, $5 billion, “ending a costly deal that helped shore up confidence in the bank at the height of the financial crisis.”

GS was paying Berkshire Hathaway Inc. "$500 million a year in dividends, or more than $15 a second.”

Guess that’s why he’s called Mr. Greedy-When-Others-Are-Fearful AND the saint of Wall Street. 

Actually it comes to down to "he helps them out and they help him out" when TBTFs are involved; in the end, they’re all at the public trough.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:13 | Link to Comment FranSix
FranSix's picture

Just goes to show you need a gamma ray observatory.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 20:15 | Link to Comment Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

Got one.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_Gamma-ray_Space_Telescope

Launched in 2008, I wonder what it sees?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:14 | Link to Comment Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

This IR image is very helpful, but mainly in showing how much fissile material is spread around these buildings.  All of this is through piles of rubble or other obstructions.  Pretty warm....

The biggest spot on unit 3 is almost certainly the waste pool and that is not good.  It likely means that it readily warms up between the quenching operations. 

We've all stared at the satellite pics and flyover videos and you can NOT see the reactor cores, nor get a line of sight thermal reading.  Maybe the smaller spots on 3 are in contact with the containment vessel, like a steel beam butting into it.  I once had to cook a frozen roast and pounded butter knives all through it with a mallet.  Something like that. 

(Hopefully this wins the prize for most fucked up but fact-based metaphor for the day.)

Unit 2 is hot enough to keep the entire building warm.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:32 | Link to Comment jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

They won't be able to keep it cool soon. The hotter it gets, and it will each passing day, the water will begin to have no effect and vaporize on contact, thus compounding the problem.

 

They should have just built some huge 6 inch thick lead boxes to place over the top of the entire buildings, then bury them all in the sand.

This water trick, is not going to win. They are just trying to put on the show that they are at least trying, so people don't freak out as bad.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:52 | Link to Comment davepowers
davepowers's picture

Jim, is there anything that can be derived by comparing #1 and #3.

There is no corresponding really big hot spot on the left hand side of the reactor building on #1, but both #1 and #3 seem to have hot spots which create the appearance of a four cornered square shape on the center to right hand side (as we're looking down).

What, if anything do the somewhat similar arrangement of those hot spots suggest?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:52 | Link to Comment Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

I don't know that I can read anything into that.  The most detailed image from #1 shows it has a roof in place...so it's hot under there.  #3 is pretty much rubble right there. 

Here is a cutaway diagram of a similar unit, Oyster Creek:

http://econtent.unm.edu/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=/nuceng&CISOPTR=33&filename=51.pdf

You can see the waste is nestled right into the 'shoulder' of the reactor with the waste itself almost at the same level as the load in the core. 

The distribution of heat in the thermal image suggests to me that things are more spread out than that at this point.  Other than that, the propagation of the heat through the debris, plus the lack of actual floor plans/orientation info makes it a crapshoot.

All I see is too much heat, spread out too much, and not a direct line of sight/thermal read on the cores.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:41 | Link to Comment Clycntct
Clycntct's picture

And here I thought you were gonna close with a I think the roast is done.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:18 | Link to Comment Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

We've all stared at the satellite pics and flyover videos and you can NOT see the reactor cores, nor get a line of sight thermal reading. Maybe the smaller spots on 3 are in contact with the containment vessel, like a steel beam butting into it ... 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

These are not the droi -er- spots you're looking for ...

http://oi53.tinypic.com/dz9jj6.jpg

 

 

.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:17 | Link to Comment virgilcaine
virgilcaine's picture

The Nikkei crashed last week when it was down 1350 pts intraday..much technical damage done.  It's over for Japan in a nutsell.

 

If you rode the bounce up.. now is time to exit.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:18 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

I got the marshmallows, who bringin the graham crackers?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:36 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

more like the "Graham/Dodd."

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:13 | Link to Comment New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

'more like the "Graham/Dodd."'

cracka' ?

- Ned

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:19 | Link to Comment onlooker
onlooker's picture

Lead melts at 327c. Steel at 1370c.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:26 | Link to Comment Deepskyy
Deepskyy's picture

But at what temperature does bullshit melt away and we finally get the truth?

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:39 | Link to Comment Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"at what temperature does bullshit melt away"

From The Engineers Field Guide to Government Transparency (hooten-mufflin)

"Fresh bullshit (bovinecacadosus) is impervious to elevated temperatures when wrapped in layers of Asbestos (corporate-coverupus) and then properly shielded by stainless steel lagging (governmental complicitus-majora)."  It also goes on to imply that most bullshit, when closely observed in natural light (in the open, sunshine) dissipates rapidly.

 

Whodathunkit?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:02 | Link to Comment Day_Of_The_Tentacle
Day_Of_The_Tentacle's picture

Now - I have been crying for a week - sometimes on the inside - sometimes on the outside.... but this one actually made me laugh.... cacadosus HA! (How about: Bovineum Cacadosus Fresco?)

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:55 | Link to Comment usefuloutput
usefuloutput's picture

Shit: Hydrogen sulfide
Melts at

-82 °C, 191 K, -116 °F

(according to wiki)

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 17:26 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

Fahrenheit 451, the temperature at which fiat burns.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 18:16 | Link to Comment New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

"Lead melts at 327c. Steel at 1370c."

But steel doesn't melt in fire, don't cha' know.

- Ned

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:19 | Link to Comment ihatecats
ihatecats's picture

Do you think Baghdad Bob went to work for TEPCO?

 

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 16:19 | Link to Comment Thorlyx
Thorlyx's picture

no way. He is a bloody amateur. Tepco are pros.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:27 | Link to Comment jkruffin
jkruffin's picture

I can't wait until I meet that Japanese girl with a cooter down low and another in her forehead.  Ain't nothing wrong with a little birth defect is there?

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:41 | Link to Comment Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

Why would that be considered a defect?

Sounds like a feature to me (using my MicroSoft logic).

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:33 | Link to Comment equity_momo
equity_momo's picture

Toasty.

Mon, 03/21/2011 - 15:37 | Link to Comment JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Reactors were destroyed by the seawater dump last week. What are they trying to save? Bury them and be done with it.

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