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They're Sorry & Confident It's Not The Electrics- Toyota.
"I will do everything in my power to ensure that such a tragedy never happens again," says Akio Toyoda- President and grandson of the company's founder. Yes, his name is on every car- and you have his translated word that he will do every, and anything he can to restore the faith in the brand. Okay, I can accept that. I mean, I worked in the car business... When the proverbial shit hits the fan with a car and a person- you can't take back what has happened, but rather- just make sure it doesn't happen again- right?
And yes, they're "working on it"- but they're denying it has anything to do with the electronics in their cars. So- that would mean it's mechanical, all things beyond the obvious like the physical and maybe even the mental- but regardless of what it is- it needs to be fixed. It may even be supernatural?
Rhonda Smith of Sevierville, Tennessee testified today and relayed the story of her runaway Lexus. "Shame on you, Toyota..." Shame on the government too she proclaimed... After some six miles of triple-digit speeds of terror "God intervened," and if it's not the electrics- maybe it's in God's hands now?
According to the Associated Press as published on Yahoo!:
"Toyota hired a consulting firm to analyze whether electronic problems could cause unintended acceleration. The firm, Exponent Inc., found no link between the two. But committee investigators said the Exponent test was flawed because it studied only a small number of Toyota vehicles
Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich., chairman of the subcommittee, said Toyota "misled the American public by saying that they and other independent sources had thoroughly analyzed the electronics systems and eliminated electronics as a possible cause of sudden unintended acceleration when, in fact, the only such review was a flawed study conducted by a company retained by Toyota's lawyers."
But Texas Republican Rep. Joe Barton cautioned his colleagues against conducting a "witch hunt" and said "We don't want to just assume automatically that Toyota has done something wrong and has tried to cover it up."
In his written testimony, he apologized for the company's slow handling of problems. "We have not lived up to the high standards our customers and the public have come to expect from Toyota," Lentz said.
"Put simply, it has taken us too long to come to grips with a rare but serious set of safety issues, despite all of our good faith efforts," said Lentz, president and chief operating officer of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc.
Among an army of Toyota dealers lobbying members of Congress Tuesday, there seemed to be a widespread rancor toward a federal government they view as picking on the automaker, at least in part because of the government's investment of billions of dollars in General Motors and Chrysler.
"That's hard for me as a citizen to understand why my tax dollars are going in that direction," Paul Atkinson, a Houston-area Toyota dealer, said at a news conference that also served as a pep rally for the visiting dealers. "To compete with the government as an individual entrepreneur is pretty tough."
No- we don't want a "witch hunt" in the grand American tradition... (Yeah, and It's not the electrics either...)
Maybe the answers will come from up above, I don't really know which set of hands are involved.
It is what it is- and when you're talking cars, lives and now the American public and its tax dollars, and fighting city hall... And maybe God now too, well. It's a big mess.
To quote an old car buddy of mine- "stay out of the car business."
And I think that's exactly the advice they, whomever you want or think they, them to be, will want you to do. God included. (I hear he's a "General Man" himself...)
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So tell us again how many Toyota vehicles (qty) were sold and how many had this/these problems?
How about the Ford cruise control problems %-wise?
How many ZHers here have had a defective memory chip and/or thumb drive?
ME: 2 thumb and 1 memory chip defective
After 5 years of infrequent use, my 512K thumb drive began to act erratically and after I realized what was happening, I jammed relentlessly on <ctrl> <alt> <del> to no avail. 2 minutes later, my computer CRASHED.
The manufacturer denied there was a problem with the drive, but to this day, I blame the electronics.
Was the mousepad on top of your keyboard prior to the "crash" ?
A sticky "enter" key perhaps?
Don't insinuate operator error, ZerOhead. I'm an experienced computerist. I even got the little individual steel thingys under the keys on my keyboard to prevent them from sticking.
Yeah... Now that I think about it, the same thing happened to me. I'm thinking class-action.
I experienced a similar "gas pedal" acceleration problem with my Ferrari back in '83. Hit a cactus at 140 MPH. The lawsuit was a bust however... I blame the gas pedal but the stupid judge deferred to the 'Ferrari experts' who concluded it was the 'hooker' that was sitting on my gas pedal that was the real problem...
Watching Mr. Lentz now dealing with DC's finest.
Seriously, why are 99% of our representatives giant fucktards? I'm embarrassed of the United States for any non-downs having individual watching this as a representative slice of our citizenry. These representatives can't speak proper English, can barely sound out their prepared questions without sounding like an average 5-year old learning to read, and overall just look like bags of ass.
I know voting has little, if any effect. I'm still all for voting out any old blood. This circus is absurd.
Fucktards? Isn't that a little rough on all the legitimate, bonafide fucktards of the world?
How about a gaggle of carnival barking sociopathic kleptocrats who think that giving their constituents a donkey punch and dirty sanchez is a form of civil love?
These demonic fuckwads are so immorally corrupt that it'd be an insult to fucktards everywhere to associate them with the CONgress.
Rhonda has a runaway Lexus...Shame on the government too...six miles of triple-digit speeds of terror.
GM CEO Whitaker has a runaway paycheck...Shame on the government too...$1.7 million this year, plus stock awards that will bring his total pay package to $9 million...
Please make it stop!!!!!!!
I guess it's just coincidence that a Michigan congresscritter is the ringmaster at this circus.
I love how it never occured to her to take evasive action, like putting the car into neutral or switching off the ignition.. classic !!
....but she did have the presence of mind to call her husband while this was going on...
Seems like too many crackpots are commenting about this woman's alleged incompetence without even bothering to listen to her testimony.
Had they done so, they wouldn't be making such stupid remarks.
For your convenience:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/35541821#35541821
and I love how you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and have obviously not heard her testimony, where she talks about putting the car in ALL gears, including reverse, and it STILL powered down the highway at top speed. She then called her husband because she feared for her life and wanted to hear him one last time.
y'all could do with taking two minutes and watching her testimony BEFORE writing her off as stooooopid.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2010/02/23/VI20100223...
If she put the car in neutral and it still accelerated
you have an entire different set of problems.
Why isn't anyone discussing the obvious?
The evolution of fly by wire is adapted out of necessity to meet fleet emission standards. Nothing can ever be as robust and reliable as a purely mechanical system, but fleet mileage can no longer be improved with that approach, hence the changeover.
The entire reason this is no longer a purely mechanical system is Government interventionism: CAFE, CARB, EPA etc. Federal motor vehicle safety standards (FMVSS) dictate exactly what this system must consist of, anyone who thinks the manufacturers will go above and beyond (IE adding redundancy) is a fool . Toyota just happened to get caught with their pants down.
I would suggest.. it has more to do with cost of production, etc. than it does with gov't interventionism.
There was a lovely article in the Economist re: "Bring back the metal bashers" that gives some starter's context.
[anyone who thinks the manufacturers will go above and beyond is a fool]
Incorrect.
Airliners are filled with redundant controls. It's added to the cost of the craft, and then to the cost of the fare. Nobody blinks.
The 3-fold rule applies; Faster, better, cheaper -- now pick two. If they cannot do "better" with all the regulatory requirements, they simply charge more. Buyer pays more. Nobody blinks. Anybody does blink they can walk.
I am completely serious. They. Can. Walk.
Because driving down the freeway at 120mph because your throttle got stuck because the manufacturer didn't add fail-safe mechanism because the buyer was too cheap -- simply should not be an option. Stupidity and greed on that scale should not be an option.
Driving is not an entitlement. Just because it has become wrapped up with economic survival changes nothing. Driving is not an entitlement and cars do not have to be cheap enough for everyone to own three of them.
I happen to own three antiques ('68 Dodge Power Wagon, '71 Opel GT, and my wifes' '89 Tercel) and I ride a bicycle 30 miles to work anyway. My drive-by-wire electric bike is unlikely to go 120mph with the throttle stuck (ha hah ha!) and at worst will plow me into a tree in someone's front yard. Human scale disaster, and I walk away laughing.
"Airliners are filled with redundant controls"
the downside of a control problem on a plane is considerably higher than on a car, thus the redundancy. C'mon.
Airliners are filled with redundant controls. It's added to the cost of the craft, and then to the cost of the fare. Nobody blinks.
Have to disagree with you there. Its not about that, its about market share and profitability. This is champagne taste on a beer budget. The mechanism for designing control redundancy is a combination of testing, regulation and experience. The aviation industry has decades full of all three, Toyota does not. Digital control systems have been nearly perfected by the aviation industry over the last 40 years, they are the leader.
Heres an example. If the regulations require performance only... as FMVSS 124 does. You deliver that, and that alone, nothing more or it comes off of the bottom line. If the regulations say you need two independent accelerator channels that create redundancy, now you deliver that.... if by some means you discover additional redundancy is required either by testing, internal investigation or god forbid field service investigations (experience).... Now that becomes your new gold standard.
Toyota is not in the buisness of giving themselves or you warm fuzzies.
There are two drivers in a plane, sometimes with a third backup.
Agreed, drive by wire systems let the computer make decisions regardless of driver actions. Everything becomes controlled by the computer so that emissions are stictly controlled.
Don't recall where I read it but supposedly OBD2 diagnostics was equipped with the ability to shut down a vehicle via satelite. Don't know if the feature was ever enabled but supposedly it's there. Certainly Onstar has this ability...and I doubt that even if you weren't an Onstar customer that the ability goes away. Thank you big brother!
Mechanical systems may be rudimentary, but they at least are under your control.
You're thinking OBDIII.
Everything becomes controlled by the computer so that emissions are stictly controlled.
Not just for emissions. "Safety" features are coming to prevent sudden steering changes, or absent-minded rear-enders. Of course this requires giving the computer servo control over steering and brakes. I would like to see an investigation of the probability of computer-error instigated accidents, on an incident per hundred million mile basis. Such a study of course should look at all brands impartially.
Hey Rhonda, did you try hitting the brakes?
Seriously, I challenge all of those useless shitheads on capitol hill to try the following:
Sit in your car, put one foot on the brake pedal, put the other foot on the gas pedal, and push it to the floor.
What happens?
NADA, SFA, maybe some rear tire smoke.
The real concern here is that people as stupid as Rhonda are out there driving around at this very moment.
dabullify
Sit in your car, put one foot on the brake pedal, put the other foot on the gas pedal, and push it to the floor.
Geez, we used to do that in parking lots in front of the local McD's when we were teenagers.
Never told Dad, though.
That works only when you are at a stand still, and can apply enough torque to make the rear tires lose traction. Try it again at 70MPH, with the engine floored. The brakes won't be able to get that firm a grip on a spinning disk rotor when the torque from the pavement is against you in a rear wheel drive car. In front wheel drive, you have both the engine and the pavement against you. And locking the rear wheels is a very bad idea in any car, as it easily turns into a spin.
The whole spinning of the Toyota story smells big time. Of course, badmouthing Toyota on Capitol Hill and on CNBC will of course help... let's say other brands closer to heart.
What a farse. Let the courts decide issues of negligence, not shouting politicians and retard "journalists".
Some clarification here.
In Japanese, electrics and electronics (Den-ki & Den-si) are being used somewhat interchangeably by the older crowd. Therefore, electrics, in the case of cars, also means electronics.
Just saying
It's all propaganja!
I keep wondering why this is even a story when the total numbers are something that approaches the number of deaths from drunk driving in a month in a major city.
I don't know, maybe these reports are true, or at least some of them. But how does NHTSA decide who to believe? Have you ever tried to tell a cop (or insurance adjustor) that "it wasn't my fault, the pedal stuck?" Good luck.
Classic bait 'n switch.
Negotiate a recall for a low tech part to fix a (undisclosed) high tech problem.
Bring the car in. Patch the software. Change the mats. Hey you're good to go!
There's no way it's just the goddamn gas pedal. Latest BS from Toyota HQ? Dealers/service managers are feeding you crap that it's b/c of parts made in the USA. Parts made in China have no problem. I think the big problem is the goddamn electronics. Someone ought to audit the code. People don't realize how many things are governed by the on-board computer. The consequences of even suggesting its the electronics? It'd bankrupt them.
Toyota has done it this way for years. Car comes in for service and "recall" work is done without disclosure to the owner. I heard this from a Toyota tech years ago.
Toyota is fuxored. Good on them. GM should go down the same path. But I've got a peave here ...
Six miles of terror?
Oh come on. Even if the machines are possessed by literal evil spirits, the ignition key still works. You can shut the f*cking thing off. Yeah it kills your power steering and CD player. Big EFFing deal. Welcome to 1955 as you coast to a safe stop.
Nobody knows how to drive any more. That's why the machines are doing all the driving for us. All these women in huge sedans with 400hp engines and 400 miles of electrical wiring are completely out of their element and have no control over that monster.
I have a modest proposal; nobody drives a car they cannot change a tire on. Women get tiny 80hp KIAs with 13 inch wheels that top out at 75mph, IMO. Go ahead grrls, knock yourself out. That's your scale of things.
My wife won't even drive, she's so afraid of these huge, modern cars and all the crap people pull on the road. She's smart, turns out.
Agreed.
I took my wife out and gave her a real lesson how to cut the switch off without locking the steering. Stop the car now, complain later.
In the UK the majority of cars have a 3rd pedal it’s called a clutch and would be the answer to all “sudden acceleration problems”
Oh, lord - your solution is to have a bunch of North American drivers using manual transmissions?
It's all they can do keep their cars on the road now, without the added complexity of knowing whether they're in 2nd or 3rd. (And I've been driving a stick for 30 years...)
Texting is a bit of a bitch while shifting!
lol :-) just puting it out there!
But think of all the soccer moms that it would keep at home! And if they can't travel, then they can't vote!
Problem solved.
the lexus has a push button start so you can't switch it off. the brakes got burnt out pretty much straight away so they couldnt stop the vehicle.
don't know if slamming it into neutral would of worked but probably too shocked to think of it.
Let the market and the courts decide this. If they make death traps, they'll go/be sued out of business. The government always does more harm than good and can not protect anyone from from their fate. There are a lot of ways to die or become injured that carry a higher risk than driving a Toyota or any vehicle. What the hell kind of society have we become?
All this contrived horse $hit is still not gonna spike the demand for Detroit iron.
Advise to the BOJ.
Since you don't have any commodities to speak off, sell all your US Treasuries and turn them into commodities. Show them who the boss is.
Or, since the Yen is kicking ass lately, bid projects overseas "en masse" now and devalue the Yen when ready to repatriate the proceeds. Bingo!
Automatic profit even if the projects show loss in foreign currencies. Copy Korea with the nuclear power plants in abu Dhabi. They underbid Hitachi and Areva by billions.
Just saying
I like toyotas a lot, but the dealers SUCK. My dad got hosed on his toyota tundra, my mom got hosed on a corolla. Luckily they have lasted a good 10 years, but there were some issues being new cars and all. I think toyota needs to dump a lot of the dead wood american management and get back to their high quality control while they have the opportunity.
All you Toyota entusiasts can forget about doing brake stands and any heel-and-toe.
Why is Toyota installing a (software) brake override system on it's cars and trucks 2005-present ??? Anyone ? Anyone ?
I agree. Full on engine power plus vehicle momentum means no stopping.
They know they have a design problem hence the changing in firmware logic. Throttle position at some % combined with a brake signal means throttle position is faulty, cut throttle.
I just heard about another recall:
"Authorities are investigating Seiko. Apparently the new Seiko Katana has a defective escape wheel that can affect the wearer's pulse. This defect only occurs when the watch is exposed to an electromagnetic current such as close proximity to a computer or even a keyboard. This intermittent problem can cause wearers to become delusional, and uncooperative with the people who know what is best for them. Due to the complexity and physical dangers of this problem it is strongly recommended that anyone owning one of these watches does not use a computer ever again, and returns to groupthink mentality immediately." - TPTB
It's all part of the rotation. Very soon Toyota will redeem it's unwarranted high quality image and the press will lay the boots into some other manufacturer, say a Korean. Just wait. For now, Ford and GM are the darlings.
Sudden acceleration of Toyota car - demonstration here:
http://dailyegyptian.com/2010/02/23/siu-professors-solve-toyota-recall-g...
+100
Toymotor should hire these guys to diagnose and fix their problems. Anything else is a PR sham.
I don't know about you, but I'm a little wary about centralized control. Centralized control? Let's see what comes to mind when thinking of centralized control:
1. latterday toymotor electronics that control everything: engine, braking, etc.
2. big banks
3. federal reserve
4. lasik eye surgery robots (now there's a scary thought)
5. the federal gov. but worse they are controlled by committee.
If I wasn't typing on the keyboard of a laptop (which might burn my lap at any moment) and enjoying the fruits of technology, I might consider becoming a luddite in order to avoid the coming s/w catastrophe that will happen sooner or later if we insist on central control.
Distributed intelligence is the, by nature, time-tested way. ZH shows that...
Because some of you seem to have a gap in the facts, here's the testimony from Rhonda Smith:
*
Rhonda Smith is a retired social worker from Tennessee who talked moments ago about the accelerating Lexus 350 that nearly took her life in October 2006. The new automobile had just over 2,000 miles.
She just told the House Energy and Commerce Committee that on October 12, she was driving in Severville on Hwy 66 entering I-40.
"I was entering the interstate and accelerated and merged into second lane. I lost all control of the acceleration. The cruise light goes on. I thought maybe the cruise control caused the car to accelerate as my foot was not on the gas pedal. I take my foot off cruise control but it continues to accelerate. I put the car in reverse but it speeds at 100 mph with both feet on the brake and nothing slows the car, not even the emergency brake.
"I thought I'd have to put it into the guard rail before I hurt anyone else. I called my husband with the blue tooth. I knew (she cries) he could not help me but I wanted to hear his voice. After 6 miles God intervened. As the car came very slowly to a stop I pulled it to the left median with the car stopped and both feet on the brake the motor still reved up and down at 35 mph and would not shut off. Finally at 33 mph I was able to turn the engine off.
"After my husband arrived there was nothing unusual with the floormats, the dash lights and radio were still on. the wrecker driver asked my hsubnd to put my car in neutral so he could use the winch. My husband was able to shift into neutral, but when he did that, the car tried to start itself. The wrecker driver attested to this. After ten days Toyota did not contact us. We received an analysis stating "if properly maintained the brakes will always override the accelerator." Well that’s a lie!
"WATE TV did some stories but we've never waivered from our belief that the problem is electronic not wandering floormats. We got no response from Toyota. We're here today because unfortunately it took almost four years and injuries and lives lost for Congress to take up this important issue. We hope others may be spared unnecessary pain. This faiure is surely shared by Toyota and NHTSA, they showed a disregard for life.
"Today I must say shame on you, Toyota, for being so greedy. Shame on you, NHTSA, for not doing your job!"
Read more: http://www.injuryboard.com/national-news/rhonda-smith-shame-on-you-toyot...
Don't mean to get in the way of your stereotypes or OPINIONS of women driving, but christ. . .
"After 6 miles God intervened." Anybody else laugh when they read that? I could just picture the old guy running along side of her lexus at 100mph with an OBD reader troubleshooting her electrical problem while she's on the phone. Best on-site auto mechanic EVER.
"God intervened... after 6 miles of fucking with me, that bastard!"
god's hands some contact Lloyd hes got some work to do.
Auto technician for 30+ years and here's my 2cents: If it truly is an electronics problem, it could ruin Toyota. Even if they have a solid fix, it won't help. Its all about public perception. Toyota already said that the sudden acceleration problem was due to floormats or sticky gas pedals. That doesn't seem to be the case with the ladys Lexus and other drivers version of what happened. So who will believe them now or in the future. By the way, trying to pick on the poor lady isn't going to make your Toyota any safer!
Toyota doesn't know how to fix the problem because they didn't develop their drive-by-wire system. GM initially developed and decided to drop the system due to inherint problems. Just like all Japanese companies, they are not innovators, just take someone else's work and pass it off as their own. Toyota and the other Japanese have been doing this for decades and the stupid people believe they are so good at developing things.
Warranty and advertising budgets of Toyota are 10 times that of the industry as a whole. Why? Because people have the tendency to report no problems with something when they didn't have to pay for repairs - hence the high warranty costs and the reason most Toyota's are sold shortly after the warranty expires and the real repair bills come through.
Its just the same with their advertising. Tell a lie enough times and it becomes true. Thus, paying for their made-up quality lie, eventually becomes truth.
People are so stupid!
Right, and those idiots who buy a used Toyota out of warranty would never report any problems they had, like to their friends or something...
About 6 years ago my Lexus 300 suddenly accelerated while I was driving on the highway, in a snowstorm. I took my foot off the aacelerator - slapped the shifter into neutral - and noticed that the engine never over-revved. It's obvious to me that the problem is electronic.
My guess is that the problem is not random - but chaotic. That is, electronic circuits will occasionally 'leak' and this can cause quite unexpected results.
ps- I never complained - I simply refused to buy another Lexus.
Still love my 12 year old, manual-shift, Mitsubish Mirage. I call it "Zero".
The japanese are very fond of "fuzy logic" and are using it extensively in their control systems.
Most likely it is the source of the problem.
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