Trading Of Over The Counter Gold And Silver To Be Illegal Beginning July 15

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Sat, 06/18/2011 - 13:24 | 1380390 Goatboy
Goatboy's picture

Great way to stifle metals. No legislation is needed, just rumors.

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 13:53 | 1380488 ackerrj
ackerrj's picture

I have searched dodd-frank here:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr4173enr/pdf/BILLS-111hr4173enr.pdf

And there is no reference to "gold", "precious", or "over the counter"

that I can locate in the legislation.  Therefore without some further explanation

I consider this post bogus & misinformation.  

 

Anyone got anything to show otherwise?

 

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 14:39 | 1380641 ackerrj
ackerrj's picture

So it appears that you and your wife together have to have a net worth

of 1 million USD (not counting personal res) to trade precious metals on an exchange, or 

you take actual delivery within 28 days.  This is not exactly a 

free market, but it is not a prohibition either.

 

What am I missing?

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 15:07 | 1380735 trav7777
trav7777's picture

A predeliction toward hysteria maybe?

It also clearly says on margin.

It does not in any way pertain to coin dealers

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 15:36 | 1380808 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

Sheeple seem prone to hysterics, they also seem to crave tyranny as well.

A calm person can see, that at the moment, physical possession is still legal - If they read & can comprehend the relevant portion of the Act.

Of course, that could change overnight if 'MeriKans vote to expand the (D) & (R) Free Shit Empire™ in 2012, as it would only take an executive order to shift the paradigm...

All I can say is prepare accordingly.

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 18:26 | 1381199 soccerballtux
soccerballtux's picture

"The prohibition of Section 742(a) does not apply, however, if such a transaction results in actual delivery within 28 days, or creates an enforceable obligation to deliver between a seller and a buyer that have the ability to deliver, and accept delivery of, the commodity in connection with their lines of business."

So in other words if you are just having them hold gold that you bought, there is an enforceable obligation to deliver between the seller and the buyer (you).

I fail to see what the big deal is? This act just means you can't play with gold on futures. But you can still buy it online and have it held online. No?

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 21:48 | 1381581 beanieville
beanieville's picture

They should make gold trading illegal.  Why be cancerous and hurt your fellow man?  It takes being an arse to go all-in gold and silver:

http://bit.ly/iHPEJD 

 

 

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 10:08 | 1382324 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

"Why be cancerous and hurt your fellow man?"

Because I really can't afford to wait until I retire to discover that my life savings are worthless and I can't afford to feed myself...

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 14:58 | 1382823 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

If this is true, then millions of illegal alien gardeners/cooks/busboys/nannies/maids/construction workers/produce pickers/etc are now elligible to become PM financial custodians. Hope you have treated them well.

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 11:05 | 1382402 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

"But when you recall that one of the first moves by Lenin, Mussolini and Hitler was to outlaw individual ownership of gold, you begin to sense that there may be some connection between money, redeemable in gold, and the rare prize known as human liberty.
--- Howard Buffett (Warren Buffett's father and former U.S. Congressman)
READ MORE at: www.fame.org/PDF/buffet3.pdf

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 11:18 | 1382425 equity_momo
equity_momo's picture

Damn shame his son is a total douchebag , the little guy could use a multi-billionaire on their side...

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 15:11 | 1382852 Quixotic_Not
Quixotic_Not's picture

They should make reproduction of mouth breathing, inbred mongrels illegal too.  Why be a parasite and suck the blood of your fellow productive man?  It takes being a psychopathic narcissist to go full retard.

Good luck with your position as a political commissar during the great purge of 'MeriKans...

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 22:03 | 1381583 beanieville
beanieville's picture

 

 

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 22:07 | 1381585 beanieville
beanieville's picture

 

 

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 22:04 | 1381613 beanieville
beanieville's picture

 

 

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 10:49 | 1382370 mr_T
mr_T's picture

Just bought a lot more gold and silver coins from APMEX.. They ship to my home in Spain... Coins are the best...buffalos.. left the country USA with a bunch of them.. they are valued at their face amount $50.. so u can take a lot before u reach 10k usd limit..t

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 11:16 | 1382429 equity_momo
equity_momo's picture

T , APMEX will ship intl?  And are you sure customs value gold at face , not current market value?

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 14:42 | 1382795 mr_T
mr_T's picture

Yes.. I am sure about the face value.. I asked for a private screening when they scanned bags.. If I knew it would be so easy I would have changed more to pm.. I don't want usd nor euros not going down with da ship... Yes.. APMEX ships int ..

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 15:49 | 1382902 Clampit
Clampit's picture

I'm 100% certain customs value gold at face - just the other day I tried to pay duties on a shipment with Buffalo's ...

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 13:56 | 1382719 Guy Fawkes
Guy Fawkes's picture

So there was no issue leaving the USA with gold? Its based on the face value and not spot?

And the receiving country has no issue of import?

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 14:49 | 1382807 mr_T
mr_T's picture

No problems with coins with face values minted in the states.. buffalos and liberties.. no problem if its investment grade... Bullion... Depends on the country u go to... no prob in euroland.. check customs laws for each country

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 10:16 | 1384717 barkster
barkster's picture

mr-t,

 

Did you carry them on the plane with you?

 

Were they in your luggage?

 

Did they want to look at theM?

 

Isn't a u.s. customs form required to be filled out? If so, who did you give the customs form to?

 

I have been trying to find this out and having a devil of a time getting the info!

thanks in advance for any info.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 16:59 | 1521988 Hremas
Hremas's picture


It sure seems that laws like this will cause people to forego the whole process of converting PMs to fiat and allow PMs to just resume their historical roles are currency. Likely, it'll be street trading and UTC (Under-The-Counter) taking the lead in such a move, but it will become more mainstream over time...until the thugs crack down on it hard.

Interesting times dead ahead!

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 21:44 | 1381561 Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture

<snort> <snort>

This done fired me up! Damn guuubbermint trying to take my guns and gold. <snort> Ain't no guuubermint MF'er gonna take my shit. I'll pump 'em with lead quicker than the speed of dark. Fuck'N A, I will.  You best watch...

<libertarian retard voice>

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 23:06 | 1381736 CSA
CSA's picture

Either you're drunk or 12 yoa.  Your wit is horrendous.

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 03:37 | 1382029 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Personally, I'm Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal drunk.  It's Saturday night though, and the god-awful economy has left no other viable options.  I will, however, attempt to refrain from seeming as though I am twelve years old- that would be unseemly.

*stumble*

 

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 11:25 | 1382437 snowball777
snowball777's picture

<vomits on shoes>

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 13:01 | 1382628 omi
omi's picture

<Vomits on someone else's shoes> is a trully admirable action.

Wed, 08/03/2011 - 17:01 | 1522002 Hremas
Hremas's picture


A lot of trading fx desks will be obliging delivery with cash settlements, because the paper trading houses hold no bullion whatsoever. The COMEX or an ETF may be able to oblige with physical.

So you might actually see a stampede out of these speculative positions and into either physical, over-priced ETFs trading at a premium to NAV, or mining assets, which have traded on an under-valued basis against gold for years.

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 03:50 | 1382036 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

Bitterly clinging to Bible, Religion and Guns.

 

That will go down in infamy along with "We have a dream" "Ask what you can do for your country" etc

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 15:15 | 1380757 robobbob
robobbob's picture

are you serious?

the modern control matrix of prohibiting something is to leave it technically legal, thereby diffusing anti-tyranny opposition, but bury the actual activity in so many regulations, fees, and licenses, as to make it virtually impossible for a person of average means, knowledge, motivation, and connections, to conduct it with any level of enjoyment, profit margin, or benefits.

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 15:40 | 1380825 Founders Keeper
Founders Keeper's picture

[the modern control matrix of prohibiting something is to leave it technically legal, thereby diffusing anti-tyranny opposition...]---robobbob

Thanks, robobbob. Yours is an astute observation.

I can think of another application of your observation that may help others to see your point:

Keep gun ownership legal, but regulate the manufacture, purchase, and transport of guns and ammunition so cost prohibitive as to make "gun ownership" effectively impossible.

 

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 16:02 | 1380874 SoNH80
SoNH80's picture

And, theoretically, we can still apply to the U.S. Treasury for a Marihuana Tax Stamp for our back 40 crop, but don't actually try it.  If there is a fog of prohibition over something, it's prohibited, as far as Federal agents are concerned. 

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 09:32 | 1382276 tgatliff
tgatliff's picture

Just for clarification.  That is technically not true...

The MTSA of 1937 was repealed by the CDAACA* of 1970.  Also, the intent (at the time) was to try to hold down drug related crimes which was perceived as hurting "productive" business commerce.  Today, these types of laws are much more about justifying law enforcement budgets than anything else.  

*Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Controls Act of 1970

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 16:00 | 1380876 SoNH80
SoNH80's picture

Double post

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 17:18 | 1381034 Rynak
Rynak's picture

Heh, in fact, this IS how it has been done in germany. Even though "in theory" you can own a gun here, there are almost no people legally owning guns in germany - reason is that the requirements and bullying is so high, that almost no one bothers. To pick just one example out of many: Here, if you own a gun, the police may at any time for no reason demand to search your home, to check if you comply with the regulations - and you need to pay them for the search. Yes. They can thus basically make you pay as often as they want, for no reason, legally.

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 18:19 | 1381186 Manzilla
Manzilla's picture

Wow Rynak, that is some horse shit! That is truly scary that they can do that over a silly firearm. That sure sounds like a good way to keep people from owning them.

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 19:22 | 1381293 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Sounds like you need to just "borrow" one...indefinitely ;-)

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 22:25 | 1381670 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

What's wrong with building your own?

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 23:24 | 1381758 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Not being a German citizen, I think ownership is the key here, not possession, from what I gather from his comment.

If it is ownership, they don't know where to look unless its declared. If its possession, it was taken away from the criminal who broke down my door and is laying dead in the hall right there, officer ;-)

A human right as basic as self defense doesn't need any declaration or licensing or explanation in my book.

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 11:24 | 1382436 equity_momo
equity_momo's picture

Europe doesnt care about your book though nmewn.  In Europe , if you so much as verbally abuse a home invader , expect the european court of human rights to bang you up.  The only difference i can tell between the US and Europe right now is this : gun ownership.   And the USSA Police State are working on that : check the militarization of the Police force and raping of the constitution for evidence.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 10:31 | 1384759 barkster
barkster's picture

while visiting relatives in Mississippi I read in the local paper about two robberies where the business owners killed the criminals and were not sentenced. One criminal tried to rob a gold and silver store. The other stole a case of beer at a convenience store and the owner followed him out and shot him in his car as he sped away. The former was not charged. The latter was sent to trial but found not guilty under Mississippi's Castle Doctrine.

A Castle Doctrine (also known as a Castle Law or a Defense of Habitation Law) is an American legal doctrine arising from English Common Law[1] that designates one's place of residence (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as one's car or place of work) as a place in which one enjoys protection from illegal trespassing and violent attack. It then goes on to give a person the legal right to use deadly force to defend that place (his "castle"), and any other innocent persons legally inside it, from violent attack or an intrusion which may lead to violent attack. In a legal context, therefore, use of deadly force which actually results in death may be defended as justifiable homicide under the Castle Doctrine.

Mon, 06/20/2011 - 10:36 | 1384765 barkster
barkster's picture

...

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 22:19 | 1381657 Founders Keeper
Founders Keeper's picture

[Even though "in theory" you can own a gun here...]---Rynak

Hi Rynak.

Thanks for your post. Gives us in the U.S. a glimpse of what we can expect.

 

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 22:50 | 1381708 John Rotten
John Rotten's picture

That is why you move to Switzerland.  A former employer of mine did just that (although I don't think that was the motivating reason).

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 11:33 | 1382453 equity_momo
equity_momo's picture

Unless you are seriously loaded , forget about moving to CHF.  Read up on how difficult it is for a foreigner to simply own real estate in Switzerland and then let me know how wealthy your former employer was. I have to give them credit , the Swiss want no truck in our problems - unless you have alot to offer them , you aint getting a pass. Thats the way any sovereign state should be to be honest. Europe , the UK and now the US have not only been weakened by Wall St predators , unchecked immigration and a soft touch welfare state for those deemed "needy" are every bit as culpable.

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 14:34 | 1382778 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Yes and no.

The other way is to apply for assylum. Wear a burkha to the interview. Always works.

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 03:47 | 1382037 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Rynak, you need some gun shows.

Even though we've been soft-sold into psuedo-slavery here in the US, I can tell you with absolute certainty that we can still buy whatever lead-delivery system we like with no paper whatsoever.

Here's an example, and I'm not afraid of saying it online, because it's a fractional revelation.  I bought a 30-30 with a Bushnell firefly scope a few years ago with the "Bush rebate check" from a private party- no paperwork at all, cash transaction.  This year, I traded the scope plus two silver peace dollars for a new Remington 870 12-ga pump from a gun show.  Those are the two I have on hand- but there are more, and more, and more, and more.

Molan Labe- I've got all kinds of other tricks buried and ready for Project Mayhem fun.  Sure, I'll give you my cowboy gunz, officer.

Cash and carry, bitchez.

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 17:47 | 1381115 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

You are correct, what they are doing is obfuscating the laws and make it hard to have a good fight against it because as you said it's still technically legal but you have to jump through so many hoops that they have made it almost impossible.  This why they can take the gold and say you violated this and other laws and by the time you get to court and at some finish, it would be a moot point.  Did Frank give a reason or Dodd why it's so important for this one provision?  They are getting the pieces together for the move when this whole game comes down, and they need to quickly take and move things around.

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