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Trading Of Over The Counter Gold And Silver To Be Illegal Beginning July 15
One small step toward Executive Order 6102 part 2, and one giant leap for corruptcongressmankind.
From: FOREX.com <info@forex.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 6:11 PM
Subject: Important Account Notice Re: Metals Trading
To: xxxImportant Account Notice Re: Metals Trading
We wanted to make you aware of some upcoming changes to FOREX.com’s product offering. As a result of the Dodd-Frank Act enacted by US Congress, a new regulation prohibiting US residents from trading over the counter precious metals, including gold and silver, will go into effect on Friday, July 15, 2011.In conjunction with this new regulation, FOREX.com must discontinue metals trading for US residents on Friday, July 15, 2011 at the close of trading at 5pm ET. As a result, all open metals positions must be closed by July 15, 2011 at 5pm ET.
We encourage you to wind down your trading activity in these products over the next month in anticipation of the new rule, as any open XAU or XAG positions that remain open prior to July 15, 2011 at approximately 5:00 pm ET will be automatically liquidated.
We sincerely regret any inconvenience complying with the new U.S. regulation may cause you. Should you have any questions, please feel free to contact our customer service team.
Sincerely,
The Team at FOREX.com
So far we have only received this warning from Forex.com. We are waiting to see which other dealers inform their customers that trading gold and silver over the counter will soon be illegal.
It appears that Forex.com's interpretation of the law stems primarily from Section 742(a) of the Dodd-Frank act which "prohibits any person [which again includes
companies]from entering into, or offering to enter into, a transaction
in any commodity with a person that is not an eligible contract
participant or an eligible commercial entity, on a leveraged or margined
basis."
Some prehistory from Hedge Fund Law Blog:
The Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act
(“Act”) has changed a number of laws in all of the securities acts
including the Commodity Exchange Act. Two specific changes deal with
certain transactions in commodities on the spot market. Specifically,
Section 742 of the Act deals with retail commodity transactions. In
this section, the text of the Commodity Exchange Act is amended to
include new Section 2(c)(2)(D) (dealing with retail commodity
transactions) and new Section 2(c)(2)(E) (prohibiting trading in spot
forex with retail investors unless the trader is subject to regulations
by a Federal regulatory agency, i.e. CFTC, SEC, etc.). According to a congressional rulemaking spreadsheet, these are effective 180 days from the date of enactment.
We provide an overview of the new sections and have reprinted them in full below.
New CEA Section 2(c)(2)(D) – Concerning Spot Commodities (Metals)
The central import of new CEA Section 2(c)(2)(D) is to broaden the
CFTC’s power with respect to retail commodity transactions. Essentially
any spot commodities transaction (i.e. spot metals) will be subject to
CFTC jurisdiction and rulemaking authority. There is an exemption for
commodities which are actually delivered within 28 days. While the CFTC
wanted an exemption in which commodities would need to be delivered
within 2 days, various coin collectors were able to lobby congress for a
longer delivery period (see here).
It is likely we will see the CFTC propose regulations under this new
section and we will keep you updated on any regulatory pronouncements
with respect to this new section.
New CEA Section 2(c)(2)(E) – Concerning Spot Forex
The central import of new CEA Section 2(c)(2)(E) is to regulate the
spot forex markets. While the section requires the CFTC to finalize
regulations with respect to spot forex (which were proposed earlier in
January), it also, interestingly, provides oversight of the markets to
other federal regulatory agencies such as the CFTC. This means that in
the future, different market participants may be subject to different
regulatory regimes with respect to trading in same underlying
instruments. A Wall Street Journal article
discusses the impact of this with respect to firms which engage in
other activities in addition to retail forex transactions. The CFTC’s
proposed rules establish certain compliance parameters for retail forex
transactions, requires registration of retail forex managers and requires such managers to pass a new regulatory exam called the Series 34 exam.
We do not yet know whether the other regulatory agencies will adopt
rules similar to the CFTC or if they will write rules from scratch.
Next, from Henderson & Lyman:
The prohibition of Section 742(a) does not apply, however, if such a
transaction results in actual delivery within 28 days, or creates an
enforceable obligation to deliver between a seller and a buyer that have
the ability to deliver, and accept delivery of, the commodity in
connection with their lines of business. This may be problematic as in
most spot metals trading virtually all contracts fail to meet these
requirements. As a result, although the courts’ interpretation of
Section 742(a) is unknown, Section 742(a) is likely to have a
significantly negative impact on the OTC cash precious metals industry.
Here too, it is essential that those who offer to be a counterparty to
OTC metals transactions seek professional help to discuss possible
operational and regulatory contingency plans.
The actual rule language exempts a transaction if it "results in actual delivery within 28 days or such other longer period as the Commission may determine by rule or regulation based upon the typical commercial practice in cash or spot markets for the commodity involved;" Alas, the commission has decided not to intervene and keep the exemption status window so small as to affect virtually all exchanges which transact in the gold and silver spot market.
Elimination of OTC Forex
Effective 90 days
from its inception, the Dodd-Frank Act bans most retail OTC forex
transactions. Section 742(c) of the Act states as follows:
…A person [which includes companies]
shall not offer to, or enter into with, a person that is not an
eligible contract participant, any agreement, contract, or transaction
in foreign currency except pursuant to a rule or regulation of a Federal
regulatory agency allowing the agreement, contract, or transaction
under such terms and conditions as the Federal regulatory agency shall
prescribe…
This provision will not come
into effect, however, if the CFTC or another eligible federal body
issues guidelines relating to the regulation of foreign currency within
90 days of its enactment. Registrants and the public are currently being
encouraged by the CFTC to provide insight into how the Act should be
enforced. See CFTC Rulemakings regarding OTC Derivatives located at the following website address,
under Section XX – Foreign Currency (Retail Off Exchange). It is
essential that OTC forex participants seek professional help to discuss
possible operational and regulatory contingency plans.
Elimination of OTC Metals
As
for OTC precious metals such as gold or silver, Section 742(a) of the
Act prohibits any person [which again includes companies]from entering
into, or offering to enter into, a transaction in any commodity with a
person that is not an eligible contract participant or an eligible
commercial entity, on a leveraged or margined basis. This provision
intends to expand the narrow so called “Zelener fix” in the Farm
Bill previously ratified by congress in 2008. The Farm Bill empowered
the CFTC to pursue anti-fraud actions involving rolling spot
transactions and/or other leveraged forex transactions without the need
to prove that they are futures contracts. The Dodd-Frank Act now expands
this authority to include virtually all retail cash commodity market
products that involve leverage or margin – in other words OTC precious
metals.
The prohibition of Section 742(a) does not apply,
however, if such a transaction results in actual delivery within 28
days, or creates an enforceable obligation to deliver between a seller
and a buyer that have the ability to deliver, and accept delivery of,
the commodity in connection with their lines of business. This may be
problematic as in most spot metals trading virtually all contracts fail
to meet these requirements. As a result, although the courts’
interpretation of Section 742(a) is unknown, Section 742(a) is likely to
have a significantly negative impact on the OTC cash precious metals
industry. Here too, it is essential that those who offer to be a
counterparty to OTC metals transactions seek professional help to
discuss possible operational and regulatory contingency plans.
Small Pool Exemption Eliminated
Pursuant to Section 403 of Act, the “privateadviser” exemption, namelySection 203(b)(3) of the Investment Advisers Act of 1940 (“Advisers Act”), will be eliminated within one year of the Act’s effective date (July 21, 2011). Historically, many unregistered U.S. fund managers had relied on this exemption to avoid registration where they:
(1) had fewer than 15 clients in the past 12 months;
(2) do not hold themselves out generally to the public as investment advisers; and
(3) do not act as investment advisers to a registered investment company or business development company.
At present, advisers can treat the unregistered funds that they advise, rather than the investors in those funds, as their clients for purposes of
this exemption. A common practice has thus evolved whereby certain
advisers manage up to 14 unregistered funds without having to register
under the Advisers Act. Accordingly, the removal of this
exemption represents a significant shift in the regulatory landscape, as
this practice will no longer be allowable in approximately one year.
Also
an important consideration, the Dodd-Frank Act mandates new federal
registration and regulation thresholds based on the amount of assets a
manager has under management ("AUM"). Although not yet underway, it is
possible that various states may enact legislation designed to create a
similar registration framework for managers whose AUM fall beneath the
new federal levels.
Accredited Investor Qualifications
Section
413(a) of the Act alters the financial qualifications of who can be
considered an accredited investor, and thus a qualified as eligible
participant (“QEP”). Specifically, the revised accredited investor
standard includes only the following types of individuals:
1) A natural person whose individual net worth, or joint net worth with spouse, is at least $1,000,000, excluding the value of such investor's primary residence;
2) A
natural person who had individual income in excess of $200,000 in each
of the two most recent years or joint income with spouse in excess of
$300,000 in each of those years and a reasonable expectation of reaching
the same income level in the current year; or
3) A
director, executive officer, or general partner of the issuer of the
securities being offered or sold, or a director, executive officer, or
general partner of a general partner of that issuer.
Based on
this language, it is important to note that the revised accredited
investor standard only applies to new investors and does not cover
existing investors. However, additional subscriptions from existing
investors are generally treated as requiring confirmation of continuing
investor eligibility.
On July 27th, 2010, the SEC
provided additional clarity regarding the valuation of an individual’s
primary residence when calculating net worth. In particular, the SEC has
interpreted this provision as follows:
Section
413(a) of the Dodd-Frank Act does not define the term “value,” nor does
it address the treatment of mortgage and other indebtedness secured by
the residence for purposes of the net worth calculation…Pending
implementation of the changes to the Commission’s rules required by the
Act, the related amount of indebtedness secured by the primary residence
up to its fair market value may also be excluded. Indebtedness secured
by the residence in excess of the value of the home should be considered
a liability and deducted from the investor’s net worth.
h/t Ryan
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not to mention that Canada has an open border agreement with the U.S. Millitary!
US and Canada Agree on Cross-Border Joint Military Cooperation for Potential Civil Emergencies
http://fiatcollapse.blogspot.com/2011/02/us-and-canada-agree-on-cross-border.html
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A declaration by the Prime Minister of Canada and the President of the United States of America
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Public Consult:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5zuvWx8Duo
+1 CB, I'll be patriotic when the constitution and bill of rights is restored.
@silverdoctors...just signed up on the forum! Silver Viral Project is gonna work! Lets take some banksters down!
@Shell Game, I hope that's how it plays out.
It seems like a physical index will be needed soon. It would be nice if the community here could cobble something together - a "gold buddy" similar to "gas buddy," where you tweet in the prices at your local shop.
Is this a capitalist country?
Idee been a figger'n its'n not one a them thar capitolistimacation type'n soceyeatee's fer'n a long ol' time there pardner.
yep. its their capital and your a cunt. something like that. says it right there on the tin.
@The Doc.
Yo. You'll be glad to hear that I'm on board with Silver Virality: Project Awareness. I noticed Mr. M looks a little familiar.... Is 'Anonymous' involved with this, too? If so, that's f-cking awesome!
Silva' Bitchez!
Silver Viral Project is awesome Doc! I signed up...educating some sheeple tonight!
Glad I did not buy any of that yer Gold. Ya all know you cannot eat it.
Almost went pannin for it in Caleforna but plane ticket was too high and they would feel my privates an all, ya all know. Was going to tell them I had a corn dog stuck in there but they would probably want to eat it. Them TSA love corn dogs.
i wld like to reply but you have left me speechless, w_f_s!
perhaps a train would help?
Now Senator Weirner resigned wees could put him in charge of checking weiners at the Air Port. Jus to see if anyone mesures up. Ya all know what I mean?
Specilly wit those x ray gismos. Got a big one and a red light goes off and TSA gattat check it out personally. Ya know what I mean. Hot Doggie.
have you been smoking the catnip, w_f_s?
The purpose of gold is not to "eat it". The purpose of holding gold is to retain your purchasing power through this mess the globalists have conspired to create. I guess you could eat fiat Federal Reserve Notes but I don't think cotton and lines would taste that good. Store food and water and PMs if you can afford them. Good day to all.
It is just a matter of time before they come after precious metals retail dealers directly. Oh shit! They have already started!
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez
i was thinking the same thing onepurpose. Pretty frickin tight to have a hacker group involved
Now we know why the XAU has been so weak.
Somebody always knows something.
Like I said, the millions of hedge funds look at paper spot price only to determine if we are in "Risk On" or "Risk Off" mode.
Once the paper price of PM's fall off a cliff, the entire CRB Index components will be sold en masse as well.
Voila!!!!
Inflation whipped once again.
And the world piles into U.S. Dollars and U.S. Treasuries.
And more deficits can be financed into Infinity at practically zero cost.
Uncle Gorilla wins again.
SLV to $60!
There is an exemption for commodities which are actually delivered within 28 days. While the CFTC wanted an exemption in which commodities would need to be delivered within 2 days, various coin collectors were able to lobby congress for a longer delivery period.
Does this mean that, if I order physical gold or silver and the supplier cannot ship within 28days, he cannot fill my order? A little confused.
That is how I read it - no orders if it will take over 28 days to deliver to you. The straightforward solution would be for wholesale prices to rise until there is little delay. I wonder if there is some sort of arm twisting that prevents markets from clearing that way.
C'mon.How many non accredited US retail investors are out there that buy Forex PM contracts and hold until expiration? The majority effected by this change look to be day traders. Contract sizes prevent delivery for most (100oz gold, 5000oz of silver) and margin requirements allow pretty much anyone the chance to sit at the table.
Seems like this is an attempt to stabilize prices by taking the speculators out of the game.Perhaps it is also being done to protect the little guy from losing his shirt on a highly leveraged gamble.
Not saying that bouncing anyone out of the casino as a good thing, but also don't see this as a crackdown against holding PM's.
+1 ... exactly - you've restated things the best i've read on this thread.
they are eliminating retail - high margin trading of gold and silver futures.
I'm confused. How? The people over $1m are exempt.
I need to find a non-sensationalist news source for stuff like this. Zerohedge doesn't report it like it is-- always a significant spin. I'm considering removing it from my list of daily visits.
Right. Which makes this even less meaningful. The retail traders of these contracts really dont give a damn about the underlying deliverable. They are in it for the leverage and the volatility. Now that this ride is over they will move on to something else with similar risk/reward (although as many posters have commented, these regs will probably spill over into other commodities contracts as well). Perhaps the intent is to herd them back into equities derivatives.
We will most likely start feeling the headwinds of the coming paper shit storm this week. Could see an incredible plunge in PM's along with a CNBC headline Silver & Gold Collapse. Most smart bullion dealers will show either sold out signs on all items or continue taking orders at pre plunge prices. Price of physical Silver will continue to climb based more on waning dealer inventories and on line auctions. I'm not the least bit worried.
I wouldn't want to be long silver futures in a highly margined account this weekend!
You still have month to go before that move takes into effect, besides
this regulation is nothing new and not just pop up out of nowhere.
Just chatted with Forex.com rep:
Please wait for a site operator to respond.
You are now chatting with 'Brooke'
Brooke: Hello Jason, welcome to FOREX.com. May I have your account number (User ID) to better assist you?
Jason: I am unsure of my account number, but I only have a simple question. I recently read an article stating that there will be no more PM trading effective July 15. Is this true?
Brooke: Yes.
Jason: Do you have a link to the new law that has brought about this rule change?
Jason: Or perhaps Forex's official news release?
Brooke: Please click here. (link she provided: http://www.cftc.gov/LawRegulation/DoddFrankAct/index.htm)
Jason: Thank you!
isn't this just about futures? IE shorts etc?
Isn't that different from buying the gold itself? IE, you can still buy gold right now OTC and have it held, just can't do futures?
Yes just futures.
For now.
The best thing to do is to keep ur fiat money in a commodity backed currency i.e. the Canadian Dollar, Australian Dollar or the South African Rand.
What goo is physical if you cannot trade it freely, it's like eating your Ipad2.
Guys the establishment is a formidable foe anyway so be smart before you antagonize them. It's pretty difficult
.
Any guesses on how this might affect PM miner & explorer stocks? Seems to me it would make them much more attractive.
This is terrific news. So the paper fiat gold and silver market will tank and physical tangibles will continue to skyrocket.
This doesnt affect your silver bullion. Any attempt to outlaw or confiscate would be economic terrorism. And, then once we identified the enemy we would have to go to war with them.
Also,
I understand that this may cause a some of the dumb money to panic. Let me be clear... its NOT about the silver market!!! Its about the dollar. You cant have inflation and collapse the dollar and suppress silver. Not when its measured in dollars.
I would think if any panic ensued from this impacting the physical market it would be by buyers flocking to buy before the deadline! We are certainly not selling. Heck, we are earning too much.
III
Looks like the Forex provisions are to shut down big PM speculative paper trades and protect the JPM from the short squeeze. No more free traders allowed in the market.
The exchange was paying 30% premiums to traders who would settle without taking (physical) delivery. The squid is afraid.
So, are the Chinese prohibited under this?
...
I'd buy that for a dollar.
It amazes me how many of you on here (invested in the paper markets) still don't get it and only care about price movements. While you've been trading your paper, absolutely nothing has changed in the physical market as bullion continues to be purchased from the smart money. Make no mistake that there will be a point were bullion (being a tiny market) will literally go scarce. Take a look at US Mint sales while it continues to break monthly highs YOY http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/american_eagles/index.cfm?action=sal...
The upcoming shortage will not be due to a raw physical shortage, it will fall short when the velocity of physical demand exceeds coin fabrication capacity (already happened in Dec-Jan 2010). Anybody know why the silver price was knocked-down in mid January? Because the US Mint was completely wiped out from January silver sales of 6,422,000 oz. That event had a tremendous impact and is the likely reason why silver eagles have been and are still delayed.
Anybody watch the Domestic Monetary Policy hearing probing the US Mint? Ron Paul quickly learned that the intentions of the US Mint are completely inline with the Feds—that is to make sound money unavailable to the public.
Take a look at this other chart comparing Comex silver inventory to US Mint silver sales http://i54.tinypic.com/14y4v4.jpg
Silver monthly sales are now 1/8 of the Comex's registered silver, and remember June is suppose to be a slow month for bullion sales. It'll be exciting to see what happens during Indian wedding season starting in September. Anybody been keeping tabs on MCX India? Have a look at traded contacts up 159% YTD http://silverwatchdog.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/mcxindiacontracts.png
I wouldn't be worried about numbers at this point, rather I'd be focused on accumulating physical metal before the one-hundredth monkey effect kicks in. At that point many will be stuck with nothing but fresh toilet paper to wipe their ass with. One convenience traded from another.
Locally my shop is flush with eagles but was emptied out on the way up to 50. I think most of the local shops have had time to reload and probably reloaded hard. Gainseville coins is having a sale on eagles.
What does this all mean? I dont have a fucking clue. Bought my usual plus some this weekend, still saving plenty of dry powder.
Like I mentioned it's the velocity of the bullion-spree that will cause the shortage. No dealers (primary dealers) have enough inventory nor is there enough coins in circulation to fullfill a swarm by the public. It'll be a mania and those who purchased ahead of the papertraders will be rewarded greatfully.
Expect all commodities to eventually fall under a similar rule.
I think we'll soon see a new Silver Bear movie soon :)
well the funny talking bears.. certainly told us to stay out of paper silver... but looks like we will not score a take down on the jpm...and can someone tell me why someone will not set up a paper vehicle that can deliver in 28 days...this is not rocket science and the law would appear to have no problems with that..educate me please....
True but they said paper silver could go to 1$ and with this crap it can happen.
I never bought my silver to crash JPM. I don't even care about them.
I only care about making a killing :)
indeed i forgot about that .... prices will have to dislocate someway somehow...
http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/IShares_Silver_Trust_(SLV)/Redemption_Baskets_Ishares_Withdrawal_Silver
It sure seems that laws like this will cause people to forego the whole process of converting PMs to fiat and allow PMs to just resume their historical roles are currency. Likely, it'll be street trading and UTC (Under-The-Counter) taking the lead in such a move, but it will become more mainstream over time...until the thugs crack down on it hard.
Interesting times dead ahead!
The manipulation of gold/silver has been operating leveraged suppression since 2000 so when the manipulation finally breaks holders of PMs the leveraged suppression will have allowed them to buy the PMs at insanely low prices.
I am an American citizen with a Forex.com trading account in which I trade Xau and XAG vs currencies and have recieve no such notice from Forex.comt
Long live the forex trade in the UK !
As some one said, hell yeah.. It´s good to be European!
To the bunkers!
Do not board the FEMA trains!
Every sheep for hisself!
here is an option for US traders.
go to forex-metal.com and open account.Takes about 2 minutes via online.
Have had account there for over 2 years. EUR/USD spread at 1.8 to 2. Trade XAU/USD to your hearts content with 50 cent spread and leverage up to 300 X. I am a little disappointed they dropped XAG/USD a few months ago. Trade Dow 30 CFD [6 point spread] and crude oil [7 cent spread - not great but acceptable]. Anyway, they accept US clients. Accounts over $500 can get no-name ATM debit card tied to account [fees very reasonable]. Can fund account via Liberty Reserve or a host of other options. Never have had any problems with them. Doesn't mean you won't, just that my experience has been good with them [deposits & withdrawals]. So, if for some reason you have had a bad exsperience with them, take it up with them, NOT ME. I'm not their mouthpiece. Just sayin'
This Dodd-Frank bullshit isn't going to affect me.
Not a record, but the mass stupidity is close.
There has been derivative-like trading on unregulated pseudo exchanges/banks/etc
These seem to deal with some of these problems. Comex is regulated. Etfs not so much.
Most of you should get out of your trades anyway before they hurt you since few seem to know their rear from mirror.
I'll have to wait and see what Bix Weir and Jim Willie have to say on this one.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
-- Mahatma Gandhi
The Bitcoin Channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/BitcoinChannel?feature=mhee
And we tolerate this entity called "government" for what reason?
....because they have all the guns and jails......
No, "not" all of the guns do they have. If they did we would all be dead or in their jails.
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez
excellent question. I suppose for many because the gubmint gives them the illusion of safety - and besides DWTS is still on and iPads are still plentiful. Take either of last 2 away and there will be revolution.
Retail specs get shut out of the Forex PMs? Fewer victims for the big boyz to screw.
Can't help but notice the timing of this coming a week after the Canadian tax nazi raid on Kitco -- another shot at a retail pm spot market trading vehicle.
better hold phyzz...paper's gonna fizz
Fiat money itself is an experiement in control and psychological warefare, and the "experiment" has been progressing very successfully since the Fed was created 99 years ago. The "thing" that Dodd-Frank is attempting to regulate, is the horribly mutated OTC market that have been spawned as a result of this experiment, which are themselves based on mutated fiat money. Hmmmm, let me see. After July 15, many of us will no longer have the "freedom" make 100:1 leveraged bets (which is itself obscene) about the "price" of a tangible asset, when the "bet" itelf is denominated in a dollar that is created out of thin air. WAKE UP! Do any of you really think that it is really wise or honorable to participate in corrupt practices like this in the first place? When a significant portion of our "financial markets" consist of this kind of "smoke and mirror" trading, can ANYTHING GOOD possibly result? OF COURSE the megabanks are going to be exempted, and will be able to continue their price manipulations with much less collateral "noise" from the smaller OTC players, who are now eliminated. "COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM," and just understand that this is "business as usual" on the long voyage that terminates in financial hell. It seems like 75% (or more) of the ZH posts I have read on this issue involve some sort of concern that physical ownership of PM's is going to be affected. Not true. Attempted confiscation of our PM's will be a DIFFERENT battle that happens later on.
Well observed, Captain.
OK I can't be bothered with reading all you bitchz comments. I read the piece..Should come to no surprise to those in the know. But please lay it out for me. Can you in the US still buy GLD? What does this stop? And why? Like your reps are so concerned that poor kids in Africa do not have enough gold to eat? To me this reeks of NWO BS.
TPTB are desperate to make the average citizen of every nation a slave to their debt and fiat schemes.
It is indentured servitude , slavery, and the elimination of individual liberty, rights, freedom, and choice that they pursue.
That becomes more clear every day.
And the only sane solution is first starve the beast of taxes, sustain no debts, and force them to implode.
What is the next step. Confiscation?
Any thing's possible with the Bill of Rights and Constitution suspended, isn't it?
BD is blasted with traffic, I cannot back up the truck to the place. I suppose I need to rise up o dark damn early 4 am or something to get access to buy more.
BD is either offline due to server load or Google has quit trying to connect.
I cannot fooking believe we are all repeating history all over again.
At the moment I smell blood in the water. Those who have metals win, especially not in a safe deposit box.
BD? Bullion Dealer?
Yes, Bullion Direct. A favorite of mine.
Ah, but of course they left naked derivatives alone, and left the shadow market totally intact. Why force the banks to unwind their infinitely more toxic positions when you can dip your toe in the PM markets.
+1
WHat about Sprott Physical Gold fund shares PHYS ???
are they to be liquidated or what??
Why? How would these regs require that?
no idea...im no lawyer/cpa i dont understand paper stuff
If they use forward contracts instead of futures and physicals, then they would have to modify their holdings to conform. That means they may be obligated within a few weeks to switch into futures and bullion, but not dissolve the vehicle. Best guess. I see this as win for CME/Globex. Potential loser for zero hedge PM fans if this also means that the Dark Lords are closing off the exits in advance of a fiat offensive of some kind, a new battle front in the Suppression Wars?
Apart from the forex.com references ( never have cared forthat company), this article reads almost word for word the same as a piece i read last August (2010) on the SeekingAlpha blog by James Bibbings and Nicole Kuchera .
http://seekingalpha.com/article/218529-obama-threatens-forex-says-goodby...
Ok. Please spell this out for me. I get the whole Forex crud and think it is a big steaming pile..But really..What does this mean Monday? My first instinct is to short gold (and hold the puke ) Just a few guesses is all I am after. Thanks!
I would guess a drop in prices but only a fool would trade on this info in my opinion. Near term effects will be slightly negative to zero effect. Bernanke and his gang of tyrants meet Tuesday and Wednesday. That might be more significant? Buy the physical, buy some popcorn and watch WWIII unfold.
Tuco Benedicto Pacificl Juan Maria Ramirez
As for OTC precious metals such as gold or silver, Section 742(a) of the Act prohibits any person [which again includes companies]from entering into, or offering to enter into, a transaction in any commodity with a person that is not an eligible contract participant or an eligible commercial entity, on a leveraged or margined basis.
The prohibition of Section 742(a) does not apply, however, if such a transaction results in actual delivery within 28 days, or creates an enforceable obligation to deliver between a seller and a buyer that have the ability to deliver, and accept delivery of, the commodity in connection with their lines of business.
No doubt why JP Moran's Diamond is very much concerned about this act. They can no longer naked short silver, they need to seliver the actual silver or create enforceable obligation with in 28 days....
Booyah! ~control~
get your wealth out of the dollar
while you still can ..
july 16 th .. longer silver
100 % margin be damned
So, are there enough non-US paper traders (rich and not rich) to keep the paper price from falling? This act is for the US only. That exemption for the rich people/companies in the US makes me think not unfortunately. :(
Will the COMEX paper price diverge from that newish HK exchange price?
Will the COMEX paper price diverge from that newish HK exchange price?
not for long ..
As T. D. documented well a while back, any real differential will arbitraged away.
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez
Freegold ....!
Freegold here we come....!
100 to 1 leverage is ridiculous in any market.
the cftc is a joke, but this is a good thing.
i see the silver price building a good base at $35, just like the $18 base last year. hopefully, the next run up will not have the big speculative blowout that we saw this year..
i wonder if this may have something to do with the big reduction in the commercial short position that has been happening as of late. so, we have fewer short positions and fewer speculative long positions.. that's a good thing for the long term silver investor IMHO
100 to 1 leverage is ridiculous in any market.
the cftc is a joke, but this is a good thing.
i see the silver price building a good base at $35, just like the $18 base last year. hopefully, the next run up will not have the big speculative blowout that we saw this year..
i wonder if this may have something to do with the big reduction in the commercial short position that has been happening as of late. so, we have fewer short positions and fewer speculative long positions.. that's a good thing for the long term silver investor IMHO
100 to 1 leverage is ridiculous in any market.
the cftc is a joke, but this is a good thing.
i see the silver price building a good base at $35, just like the $18 base last year. hopefully, the next run up will not have the big speculative blowout that we saw this year..
i wonder if this may have something to do with the big reduction in the commercial short position that has been happening as of late. so, we have fewer short positions and fewer speculative long positions.. that's a good thing for the long term silver investor IMHO
Sounds reasonable. Lots of wild comments today.
They should make gold trading illegal. Why be cancerous and hurt your fellow man? It takes being an arse to go all-in gold and silver:
http://bettertrading.blogspot.com/2011/06/you-are-still-bunghole-for-loa...
Looks like you have chosen to take sides with the tyrants. I am sure your ancestors will be proud of the legacy that you leave behind.
Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez
oh yeah....they should make gold trading illegal.
well come to think of it, they're already making food a privilege !!!
Yeah... make it all illegal...
JPM & the uscongress... Making the world safe from evil speculating grannies & their tea sets since 1913...
Seems to me this is a win for CME/Globex. The ruling refers to leveraged forward/spot vehicles versus exchange-traded futures, right? Or have I misread it? Smacks of consolidation, concentration of market share in the name of prudent regulation -- a favor bought by organized crime interests in this brazenly corrupt corporate oligarchy. But banning private PM ownership? Maybe that comes later. Why am I feeling like a frog in a pot? Fuck it. Two days ago I bought two more monster boxes of silver eagles. Maybe Homeland Security will one day be waterboarding me for their location. God Bless America, my fellow Americans. Just remember, we are number one. In diabetes and falling test scores.
You forgot incarceration/per capita. Yes we lead the entire planet. But thats just how we roll here in the land of he free.
And for Falling Knife, or is it Failing Nerf?
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and hence clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
-- Henry Louis Mencken
IMHO, very simply, all of us are to be put into an arena controlled by the banksters and their crooked pals in the admistration , where they can play with us at ease with their HFT and their endless supply of dollar notes.
So what does it all mean?!
I'm leaning strongly towards 42.
What small minds miss is that genius is reducing the complex to it's most basic essence ! Einstein did this ! Rush Limbaugh makes the complex understandable ! Monedas says, "Hoarders have more fun !". Monedas 2011 Next time....listen to me ! http://trololololololololololo.com/
It's probably inadvertant. The restriction stems from Dodd-Frank's provisions on swaps with Eligible Contract Participants (ECPs), which make it onerouse for financial institutions to trade with non-ECPs. No one will want to trade OTC with non-ECPs after July 16. I think stifling the PM markets falls in the "unintended consequences" bucket of effects of the law.
I think to sit and wait/see what happens when Hong Kong opens tomorrow night and into Monday across Europe and the USA. Next week will indicate how the "Herd" is going to go in regards to gold and silver bullion.
I have my plan laid out depending on what happens next week. Maybe nothing at all. We don't know yet. What I think will happen is those who hold only Paper will liquidate and either get out and stay out of PM's or use the proceeds to get PM's by the truckload.
If they do, in sufficient numbers... not a damn thing can be done to prevent Silver 70 by august and Gold 1700 or more in the same time frame.
I call 35.00-36.00 a hard bottom. It has been trading sideways for a week or more.
So, are you saying people are going to liquidate paper futures, including on Comex? If so, where is this silver 70 and gold 1700 price discovery going to be confirmed in August?
If that is what it costs to get physical, then that price will be reflected on exchanges in Shanghai, Hong Kong, Sydney and what not. Or are you saying that 1700 price will in fact also be reflected on Comex?
It seems to me the legislation or move being talked about is applicable only to the US, and is forgetting the rest of the world values gold. There's no way gold will get to 1700 an oz, but for some reason futures exchanges outside the US will ignore this and somehow trade multiples below the price of physical.
If that happens, it only takes one or two 'eligible' buyers from abroad to stand for delivery on Comex and get cheap physical -- or, as is thought, to be paid off in x percentage more fiat dollars. Either way, if physical demand is through the roof, Comex will have to reflect this, even if it might have an option of paying out in dollars rather than physical when people ask for delivery.
I respectfully present to you this:
If the United States find themselves no longer the center or beneficiary of trading, commerce and global economy and bypassed to the benefit of China, Hong Kong, South Africa etc etc etc... Then the United States has nothing.
The way things are going I expect the Forex People to move either into PM's or rapidly into Hong Kong or offshore venues where it continues to be good to trade as before. The problem is transferring the wealth into the USA Borders.
I have already shown I know nothing about Forex and view them as operators who probably are able to stay one step ahead of traders at home on dail up or satellite connections anyway. Forex is not the Market.
Everything I have seen this year points towards a powerful push against a group of people who have the means, the ability and the power to buy something and make it happen quickly at a profit into something else other than the USD.
You see, the small business people are facing ever increasing regulation ever since Obama got elected. You cannot even change your oil in the back yard or grow crops without someone regulating it. (Unless you are in a free state)
And if making a living by trading between buyers and sellers of widgets at a profit each day without actually taking delivery is a crime.... (Spectulation...) then they need to simply close down the entire Market, or it will close down anyway as a Patient does when entering a death spiral that requires heroic and very expensive measures to keep alive.
Apparently all the money in the trillions have been blown since 2008 in a effort to keep the masses calm and unaware of the fires approaching the "Theater" as they live out thier self absorbed addiction to the daily show playing out on stage.
It would have been better for all the millions and trillions to have been applied directly to the 300 million US Citizens to get clear of any and all encumberances so that they may finally generate a economy capable of retiring that of the Nation's Debts. Alas, hindsight is a bitch.
Obviously i buy more phyzz. But what do i do with my paper silver position tomorrow night? Is this a blowout to the downside? It seems to me it should be exactly opposite. Tell me what ya thinkin!
I tell you what I would do if I am some poor schmuck holding gold paper or silver paper watching TV commercials ....
SELL.
And be fucking agile and get your PM's delivered asap. Bullion of the Herseus, Pre 1965 junk coins and ASE coins are your best bets. Try to stay away from generic silver/gold and those catagorized to sell/trade on CMX.
Buy a vault for home keeping. And proceed with your necessary home security, home defense (Training also) and so on so forth.
This economy in the Memphis area is going down so damn hard and fast... it makes my head spin to see the beginnings of a predatory and ravenous people working at night to steal, stalk and hurt/kill others.
One more thing. Once you possess Physical metals. Keep the original papers with each shipment and DONT. YOU. DARE. SELL. for any reason. There are going to be ups and down, sideways etc. The race is won by the strong and sure. Not by the weak impulsive chasing of the spot price going up and down.
And get the fuck away from MSNBC or whatever else is on your Boob Tube. They do nothing but hype shit that explodes and scatters crap like a total blow out during heart surgery would do with a missed thread.
Disclaimer. I own PM. Should have gotten in when it was damn boring at 200 Gold and frigging spare change silver 30+ years ago.... If only.... no matter.
Tell your family and friends not to rely on Fiat. If they laugh at you and look at you as if you are a raving lunatic fit for santitiarium... then cut them loose to learn the hard way, dont let them sink you when they find themselves up the river without a paddle.
Years ago I told everyone that FDIC was FUCKED. They laughed.
Some still laugh today.
I suppose the Banking industry is like a elderly person filled with bad temper, cigerrettes and likker so full that they cannot just die and be done with it. They feel no pain while the People writhe in the streets wondering how in hell they are gonna eat.
It aint long friends. Not long now. This is the year to get it done, or not at all.
for me the real big stink is giving "joe paper public" less than a months notice.. This is where we see jpm pulling the strings to avoid any red faces.. with regards delivering physical...
A practical question-
I'm not a rich man, but in the past couple of years, I've managed to make a little sort of stack of physical silver.
Does this development mean that I should go *ahem* "all in" (and please understand that this means a couple hundred bucks, not a gazillion dollars) on payday, or is the timeline still ok for me to continue my ounce or two a week strategy?
Continue to buy this is a non-event for the average person. It's noise nothing more
Yep. All in. You will be glad about every single ounze, mark my words.
Little by little wins the race.
Covet not, want not, waste not.
Paper is imaginary. PM is actual especially when you hold it.
After a sleep I got up this morning with the idea that perhaps there is a push to prevent Spectulators from going into day trading at any level without any intent to take delivery. Buying 100.00 barrel of oil for delivery next quarter today and selling it at 120 a barrel tomorrow never expecting that barrel to show up at your door, it must be making you a great deal of money and driving those in power completely nuts while the sheep pay through the nose at the pump.
Depending on which way the spot goes, I will continue to buy a little each week.
The thought that breaking the monopoly bank on Metals (Aka the US Mint) is extremely troubling to me. That should only drive prices to the moon. (60? 80? 120? etc)
I do hold debt that cannot be discharged under the current Government (Student Loan) and what does it matter? If a bank servicing it fails, someone else will do it. Truly tbtf when one considers about a trillion dollars lent to students. Half of which cannot find work and the rest beginning to understand the old ways of living with mommy and daddy.
Maybe this. Silver or Gold goes to moon. A butterfly sells a few ounces. Pays off Student Loan tomorrow, effectively putting the TBTF Loan Bank servicing outfit out of revenue (Interest) for 20 years gone. Poof. If the Nation did the same then essentially the entire Loan will be wiped out on a few ounces per indebited citizen using paper this month and metals next year to make it happen instead of 20 years worth of payments at possibly ever increasing interest.
I think that is what they are truly afraid of. The butterfly with a few ounces and power to make them disappear. Instead of the slaves with 20 years to pay and possibility of complete and total bankruptch which will gain the TBTF banks holding the loan a chance to use Vehicles, Property, Land, Homes etc to gain even more.
See where I am going?
College themselves should and must fail before the present system of indebting our young students are eliminating.
Those of you still in Highschool.... find a trade school and learn to weld or something, stay the hell out of college. The path to college is nothing more than a total intent to control YOUR future with debt and inability to be solvent to make anything good for yourself. But they will always need a good welder or dishwasher.
Some of you argue you need Degree to be manager or executive. What does it matter? You are given people to do the work for you while you sit and make decisions that should be for the good of yourself, your boss and the shareholders. Who gives a damn about that degree and the workers slaving under your desk frantically taking your calls and arranging for your airfare? Fuck em.
Back to physical. There must be a mindset to hold with strong hands what you have 1 ounce or 1000 ounces. It's the weak falling from the tree that they seek to eliminate.
If the tree be strong, then they slash and burn the paper imaginary market and drive out the "Money changers" and level the battlefield of metals to a certain degree for the next move. I don't think it is Confisication... but perhaps a commodity war of sorts that will be fought and won/lost by those who remain liquid. All else indebited must fail and lose.
Taking it one step further, I consider this an attack on the very free market system that Wall Street is built on. It will prevent anyone, especially the US Citizen or anyone else from getting out of a bad US Dollar and into something else and use it as a means to a brighter future when the US Dollar is replaced with something else. If I remember Germany in the 30's they changed old marks to the new marks to a ratio that ensured all old marks to be swept up and locked away out of reach of the German. Who found that they needed wheel borrow to carry the pay to buy lunch.
The battle will be joined when July comes round and those who have not heard the word are suddenly frantically clearing "Furnature" from the exit store while burning alive on the mountain of imaginary paper money that they have sunk into with the aura of greed and avarice with gleaming eyes now lit with burning pain of loss and insolvency.
If Nations engage in this and lose, then they will collectively cry out to the UN or IMF to save them in exchange for Soveriengy and basic rights held dear. If that day comes that the blue helmets are on my main street, it's going to be pretty ..... touch and go getting out because you should have been long gone from the city by then whose population will now be very angry and with hardly nothing to fight with.
And to think a little over a year ago, I was just a timid church mouse sitting in the corner marveling at the daily rolling waves of fantastic events sweeping the US Markets via Zero Hedge. Now I feel that I found my place and learning to become a warrior.
Im in the uk and i would like to start trading metals online, how much worthless fiat should i save before opening an account?
It is a good news for gold. The less than paper gold, the more expensively the real threw
Sorry, I'm going to wait for additional source reporting and verification of this report from Tyler. Like any law, it is subject to legal interpretation, and politically speaking, outlawing investment in PMs like this just does not seem to me like it will fly, if that was indeed their intent. Remember, we have a powerful TBTF interest in JPM holding a s*itload of silver, Rockefeller and crew are going to want a potential egress out of silver if they need it. This is not going to fly and will not stand up to legal challenge.
in uk i use both thegoldbullion(payby debit card) and Sarnia silver (pay by pay pal).. sarnia currently have apmex half ounce rounds delivered to your door £14.99.. and like the cartoon bears said ignore spot prices... if you want an idea just go to ebay and search and search to see if you can pick one up much cheaper... spot has nothing to do with nothing.... lock and load physical...
in uk i use both thegoldbullion(payby debit card) and Sarnia silver (pay by pay pal).. sarnia currently have apmex half ounce rounds delivered to your door £14.99.. and like the cartoon bears said ignore spot prices... if you want an idea just go to ebay and search and search to see if you can pick one up much cheaper... spot has nothing to do with nothing.... lock and load physical...
Samia?
You got a link for that?
My bad, never had my glasses on Sarnia...got it, thats a fine site my man
my pleasure... paul wood is the man at sarnia ... an no matter how many half ounces you buy they all come seperate envelopes this is how they bypass the vat... i have had loads just little getting bits at a time...flick them in the air they make a super ring... good luck.. also watch cause prices change quite a bit ... on daily basis.. the current 14.99 is the best i have seen for a while.. but it could get better who knows with the current news... i don't bother telling folks to buy silver here cause .. with msm round uk you just sound like the tin foil hat briggade...
I've given up that particular cause, the wife looks at me like I'm Fred West if I try broaching it with her family.
Maybe I am not understanding this at all but I thought this would be very bullish for Gold and Silver.
Doesn't this in effect 'really' only affect sellers of Gold and Silver?
Does this make naked short selling more difficult?
Does it make it more stable by lessening those that will suddenly cash out in panic creating a waterfall?
Wont this get us closer to a physical market aqnd physical pricing?
I would have thought that this would be more likley set gold and silver on an even higher trajectory.
But then again it could do nothing as it all depends on a non corrupt CFTC and we know they will always bend over for the banking cartels.
You are correct
Fuuuuuuuuuuuck. I need a drink.
Click baiting extraordinaire
99% of you don't even use Forex so give it up
Here is Sinclair comment on the subject:
Subject: Re: US Seeks to Curtail OTC Highly Leveraged Retail Trading in Paper Commodities and Currencies
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 07:30:15 -0400
This has to do with cash coin dealers offering margin and trading against their clients.
Jimvortex, where's that comment from Jim? Can't find it on jsmineset.com.
Government's prime weapons are misrepresentation, control over the legal system and manipulation of media, markets and enforcement (police, army, etc)
.....on a lighter side, these trading actions by the powers that be must have something to do with the "change we can believe in" that we've all been waiting for !!!
DONT confuse paper with physical
exactly, I think phyz price will go to the roof on this news.
If that happens, expect the paper, or futures price of gold to go through the roof in China (being the biggest gold producer, why would those selling through exchanges settle for a lower price than what physical is actually going for?).
If that happens, expect the pricing on Hong Kong and Australian exchanges to follow suit.
If that happens expect Comex to have to reflect prices from exchanges abroad, or it becomes persona non grata (if not already).
you expect me to talk goldfinger? no mr stant i expect you to die
you expect me to talk goldfinger? no mr stant i expect you to die
It's says July 15 into effect, but FXCM (FOREX) and affiliates disconnect gold/silver trading from US customers long long time ago. The only question all Those Silver Gold ETF's GLD, SLV and so on, not affected?
If anyone thinking that be it and physicals trading buy/sell should be
fine, think again.. Physical is next step.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc04MRe9R6U&feature=channel_video_title
anybody ever buy from Provident metals?
are they any good? A bit cheaper than Apmex
http://www.providentmetals.com/2011-1-oz-china-silver-panda-coin-brilliant-uncirculated.html
Provident is awesome. They ship faster than apmex and are cheaper. They run out of stuff more often than apmex... but overall better IMO
thanks
Provident is awesome. They ship faster than apmex and are cheaper. They run out of stuff more often than apmex... but overall better IMO
Classic Western style of control, which is hidden and done in slow increments, one step at a time so as not to disrupt the current system. In the East, it has historically always been direct, in-your-face control of everything, thus the use of symbolism to convey messages. But here, we have the OWO getting ready to follow orders to take down the current system, so the NWO can step in to 'save the day' in classic 'false prophet' manner we have been warned about thru the ages. Obviously, the market makers and their banking lords are feeling the heat impending doom as they start to lose control of things and this is but another small discreet step to maintain control of the ship of state called Titanic.
The icebergs can be seen everywhere if you are willing to look. The question is not if, but when the 'rug gets pulled out from under us'... then the 'banking holiday' routine is usually brought to play, new global currency, etc. History is full of these examples when fiat based civilizations collapse. It's not new, just a question of style: Western covert vs Eastern overt.
"any transaction over $600 will be taxed"
Right, and at $42.22 an oz for gov. gold thats a little over 14 ozs! Double standerd bitches.
When there is no gold in Fort Knox the gov. has to change the game.
http://alamongordo.com/apocalypse-armageddon/imf-chief-discovering-us-gold-gone/
Even if it was full, an audit would be pointless without drilling holes in the bars.
http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1258049769.php
"The amount of “salted tungsten” gold bars in question was allegedly between 5,600 and 5,700 – 400 oz – good delivery bars [roughly 60 metric tonnes]."
Well, well, well. First I get a letter from my bank, Wachovia-now Wellsfargo, telling me that if I kept anything in my safty deposit box that is not within their guide lines, or is "illegal" it may be confiscated. Then I read that a Mr. Gary Gensler (ex Goldman Sachs partner) is to run the Commodity Futures Trading Commission and his first task is to "implement legislation passed last year that requires first-ever regulation of some of the darkest, riskiest corners, of these financial markets." The article also blames liberal Democrats for holding up his nomination for five months. Miami Herald, Sat., June 18, 2011, page C-1, "Meet the enemy of the oil speculators". Then I read this about FOREX. Ahh I get it. The Squid is now in charge of the banks, The Treasury, the enforcement, The FED, etc. I guess they do not want any of us to have options. Now we know why they are bailing out the banks. They are soon to be the enforcers. Next the new $100 bill with all others recalled within a certain time frame-and you had best be able to explain from whence they came.
I think the PMs prices will now separate from the paper. We are about to see a real rise in prices.
I need to ask a newbie question as i cant seem to find it adequately defined in the article. What is trading "over the counter" relating to gold. I always considered OTC as off market exchange. So that would be trading physical , not paper , no?
First poker ruling, then this. It must be nowadays really great to live in the land of the free and home of the brave...
-
Got to this thread way too late, but there were some really good points.
Taxation in the commodities is structurally different than gold.
This means that pricing will be affected in different ways.
ETFs are the big buyers but I'm sure that traders will get mad and take delivery instead of dumping their contracts.
It would be foolhardy to take delivery of any other commodity than gold in this context.
(ahem. Not that gold is a commodity. It may just have been officially declared 'money' and monetized with this latest wrinkle.).
Legislation has already been passed that requires reporting of sales over a certain amount, so even if you do take delivery, then it will be reported anyway.
The next thing traders will be looking for is any proxy for gold which should be the mining shares.