The Treasury Is Soliciting Your Feedback Regarding The Proposed Annuitization Of 401(k)
Yes, slowly but surely it is happening. In a federal notice filed earlier, the DOL and Treasury are soliciting a response on what has been on many investors' mind, namely the process of converting 401(k)s into annuity-like products. To wit:
The Department of Labor and the Department of the Treasury (the "Agencies") are currently reviewing the rules under the Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA) and the plan qualification rules under the Internal Revenue Code (Code) to determine whether, and, if so, how, the Agencies could or should enhance, by regulation or otherwise, the retirement security of participants in employer-sponsored retirement plans and in individual retirement arrangements (IRAs) by facilitating access to, and use of, lifetime income or other arrangements designed to provide a lifetime stream of income after retirement. The purpose of this request for information is to solicit views, suggestions and comments from plan participants, employers and other plan sponsors, plan service providers, and members of the financial community, as well as the general public, on this important issue.
A cursory read of the document does not seem to ask about a flat out regulatory requirement for annuitization. We point your attention to item 13:
13. Should some form of lifetime income distribution option be required for defined contribution plans (in addition to money purchase pension plans)? If so, should that option be the default distribution option, and should it apply to the entire account balance? To what extent would such a requirement encourage or discourage plan sponsorship?
For readers who feel compelled to respond to this increasignly socialistic and ludicrous development, we suggest you voice your anger at the following address:
- e-ORI@dol.gov. Include RIN 1210-AB33 in the subject line of the message
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| 2010-02028_PI.pdf | 64.58 KB |
(5 votes)
»
-
- Login or register to post comments
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:26
#213650
Let the looting begin
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:29
#213660
What's yours is mine, baby! Please get a new job, you're paying for 2.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:48
#213827
+1
LOL!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:27
#213656
Well, this ought to help fix that pesky bear-market rally anomaly we've been seeing.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:30
#213662
Wait til they wrap it in patriotism and the flag. It'll happen
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:31
#213663
hand it all over ,, we be the guardians of cradle to grave goodness,
bend over stick out your a-- and go augh .
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:31
#213668
Dear usa treasury: EAT SHIT AND DIE!!
on Sun, 02/21/2010 - 20:18
#239601
then they need to ROT IN HELL!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:32
#213670
Not just no, but HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:32
#213673
As Rahm expressed, never waste a crisis.
Another step in the slow grind toward a sad statist existence. Not bad, if you're the one in power.
America, will you let them take it all away from you?
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 06:44
#214517
Ah, yes. The dreaded Statist experience. As if the current global system is so fantastic. Wal-Mart/Tesco/Goldman Sachs/McDonalds on every street corner while the peasants wear H&M Clothing. Absolutely dreadful. And McDonalds is shyte.
Meanwhile, the Finance Wizards keep pretending that Economics is a true science. Only if so they can convince themselves that they are worthwhile and relevant. Much like religion.
The problem with the current system is, as in science: The old guard needs to die before new thought will be accepted. After all, most people hate the very idea (and fact) that they have built their entire careers (and life) on sand. Could not admit that can we?
And socialism? It is a dirty word. Like communism. And capitalism is now. Why? Because, just like communism, socialism and capitalism are beset on all sides by special interests. Egos that seek to gain at the cost of others.
There is no more common weal upon which commonwealth is built. We are all sharks now. Solitary. Alone. Eating everything in existence until there is no more.
Communism died. Capitalism leads to corruption. Socialism, well, it is just a dirty word. However, common weal is socialist. Group survival over the individual.
No more assholes working in offices. Buying and selling pieces of eight on paper. All the while thinking they are performing some great intellectual feat and contributing to real wealth.
An eight year old randomly picking out stocks in the newspaper does just as good as the average stockbroker in some office on Wall Street. Great intellectual feat. My ass.
Intellectually challenged and intellectually captured by group think. Nice.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:35
#213675
This insanity reminds me of something that happened to me as a child of around 9 or 10. I was petting a neighbors dog and I got rough with the animal. It turned and nipped at me and I grabbed the collar in an effort to control it and prevent it from biting me. That caused the dog to struggle further, thrashing back and forth in an effort to get free as well as bite me.
There I was, holding on for dear life to a dog who was at the same time both terrified and furious. What could I do at that point? If I let go, the dog would severely bite me. But to continue to exert even more control only caused the dog to panic more and more and to struggle even more frantically.
Eventually my father heard the dog yelping and barking and my terrified screaming and he rescued me from my stupidity. The dog wound up taking a large chuck of flesh out of his arm as he shielded me from my actions. But I never forget what happened and I always treated animals with more kindness and care from that moment on.
How do we bring this economic dog under control without doing more damage to the dog and ourselves? How do we calm a situation that is way past the point of no return? How do we put the genie back in the bottle?
While Dad is gone now, I always thank him when I think about this life lesson.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:36
#213688
If your dad was the US government he would have shot the dog.
Problem solved.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:48
#213726
Au contraire...he would have allowed the dog to restructure as a bank holding company, lent to it a 0%, supported its decision to pay itself a huge bonus and than invited it to a televised hearing when it could issue grave warnings about what would have happened had it not been pet in the first place.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:36
#213801
ROFLMAO!!!!
Really though, it is a sad day. Is it too much to ask to wake up in the morning and not be under assult from my gov't, I mean every freaking day can't they just fuck off for one day.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:09
#213956
Yes please just 1 day - Get off us!!!!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 20:22
#214189
Rag,
Ain't it the damned truth........these SOB's make every day a DECISION day for us, and never a good one. I am sick and tired of never getting a breath of air.
Al Capone deserves a damn apology compared to these friggin THIEVES.
They seize our 401k's,( after stealing the SS Funds, Medicare, and Medicaid) I see some real violence coming into play.........
This is one VOTE, I would not be a party to.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:56
#213739
Yes because the only thing that is FOR SURE controllable, is something that doesn't live. Those who have power have a tendency to kill living things - for that reason... look at Warren Buffett: "The system was at stake" No Warren - YOUR system was at stake.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:41
#213806
ahh, no.
he would have shot you to protect the dog. The dog was too big to shoot(fail).
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:36
#213689
You EUTHENIZE the damn dog before it can BITE YOU!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:44
#213711
I agree LoneStarHog. So who has the balls to stand up to this dog? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
I didn't think so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferris_Bueller's_Day_Off
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:45
#213714
Who is the Dog Whisperer?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:53
#213735
I'm actually very good with dogs and other animals in my old age. It's rabid Fascist governments I have a problem with and the people who enable them, including my fellow meek sheep who rather go along to get along and ignore the concentration camps dead ahead.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 21:27
#214248
What's wrong with Concentration Camps? They get a bad rap. Its 3 squares a day, a roof over your head, a warm bed at night and great daytime exercise. If you behave you might get some time on the chain gang and see the countryside. Be glad you have that concentration camp. You could be living under a bridge to nowhere.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:46
#213723
In this situation, you must use the "wood and water" method. Beat the dog with a stick of wood until its eyes water.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:16
#213872
I hope you are speaking metaphorically. There is a special place in HELL for anyone that would abuse animals or even speak of it. Makes me sick.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 20:54
#214221
"or even speak of it"
Bite me; we still supposedly have the right of free speech.
But I do agree regarding people who actually abuse animals.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 21:38
#214257
When a person is faced with a choice between their safety and the well-being of an animal that is acting threateningly toward them, the animal is going to lose every time.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 20:09
#214175
My guess is we're all going to have a few pounds of said flesh taken from us if they get their way!
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 10:25
#214670
The dog has rabies, put him down-18
on Wed, 02/03/2010 - 21:26
#216677
Been out of town, getting caught up some. This was a provocative post. Nice work.
on Wed, 02/03/2010 - 21:27
#216679
Been out of town, getting caught up some. This was a provocative post. Nice work.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:33
#213676
the RR's who push the product(s) hardly have an f'ing clue of their construction and the vast majority of those with monies in qualified 'annies' (ahem, NYSTRS 403(b) option 2'ers w/o pop-1 /2 protection) don't have the foggiest concept of fee structure, let alone what pitfalls lay immediately ahead).
i'm sure FINRA et al really cares about what we all have to say and isn't just doing their public 'due diligence' so as to have plausible deniability, if (hah) it were to backfire / blow-up bc of 'unintended / unforeseeable circumstance(s)' ... great idea.
what is left of the CVLI / qual-annuity loop-hole is about get even tighter.
wonder how long til estate tax is finally re-branded death tax n effectively neutered as well ... then charities of all stripes will be crucified by the loss of 30-70% of their annual intake, but again, how could anyone see this ahead of time.
Disclaimer: long Zero Hedge, short "free and fair markets"
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 21:30
#214251
Don't the Bush tax cuts run out this year? Estate taxes will be another take away for the goobermint as we continue with the largest wealth transfer (make that heist if you die in 2011) in history.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:35
#213681
Don't people normally get jail time for senior abuse?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:35
#213682
the game is a foot. the masses won't catch on for a while, and when they do, the econimc conditions will be so poor that people will beg for jobs even if the job is riveting chains of bondage around their fellow countrymen's necks.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:36
#213687
Get your Treasuries here, red hot Treasuries here!
Can't watch the ballgame without your red hot Treasuries!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:36
#213690
So is this Social Security Part Deux? So they can rape and pillage and send all retirement accounts into a fiscal nightmare? They managed to send Social Security into the RED, now they want to pillage our personal retirement accounts?
This is nothing more than a ploy by this government to get people to pay for their stupid treasury debt they cannot seem to stop selling, since no other country wants it anymore.
This cannot be allowed to pass.
I am planning to move out of this country within the next 5 yrs, for good reason. They better not mess with my money or I am shooting someone.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:59
#214066
Wait6 till they privatize Social security and place all those receipts into "the market" via GS.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:39
#213698
A bond mutual fund you can never sell. Let me guess, it'll adjust for inflation? This sounds like the bush "privatization" of social security scheme from 6 years ago. I'm inching closer toward the exit doors.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:40
#213905
yeah, it'll adjust for inflation. just not the inflation measure that includes food or energy.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:40
#213907
because, really, who uses those things?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:39
#213699
The sheeple don't care. Just give them their Fucking American idol and iPhone and their fine. Let's see how many sheeple will actually cashout.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 11:20
#214757
But I use my iPhone to read ZeroHedge...
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:40
#213702
Pull your money out while you can and f**k the tax penalities. Better off paying the 10% penalty on something and have access to my money!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:08
#213756
It's far worse than 10% dude. In fact when all is said and done I believe it's well over 50% with all the penalties and taxes paid.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:35
#213800
20% federal right off the top. Then add in any additional fees and taxes if they apply
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:54
#213933
I took a total hit of about 24% taken when I cashed my IRA in in 2008.
Slept better ever since! Or was that because I bought more gold...?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 20:16
#214184
Actually the 20% is the federal tax part -you might owe more or less at tax time, but the required withholding from your employer is 20%. Oh, and at tax time don't forget that pesky 10% pre- 59 1/2 penalty to boot,which is taken on the gross distr. not the after-tax distr., just to add a little more salt in the wounds.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 23:13
#214368
Better to pay 35%-40% now than wait a few years and watch the Fed take it all. (I think a forced conversion to Social(ist) Security will be the mechanism of choice, or a "one-time" special tax of %50% to prop up Social Security once it fails beyond the point of denial.)
I cashed in mine last year and paid off the house. Haven't slept so well in years.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:38
#213904
@ 50%; you might say that's a bird in hand vs. two in the bush!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 22:39
#214294
Or a bird in the hand is worth more than birdshit for life.
I think that hope is our worst enemy, that the governmet handling of pensions, etc.
might work out well.... look at their track record... no indication whatsover that the interest of the people is even considered. All those monies in retirement vehicles are only promises, more dubious daily. I know its hard to opt out of the retirnement plans, there´s a sense of security that comes from years of contributing, a sense that these things are somehow real, but they are nothing more than promises, the conditions of which are changing. And other than changes in rules, there could be a number of events that impact their financial value, systemic collapse, availability, etc., e.g., bank holidays, currency devaluations, etc.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:43
#213709
Don't like it? Cash out. Simple.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:11
#213959
I thought you had to quit your job to cash out your 401-K early.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:55
#214054
You take a 20% Tax cut, + 10% tax on the rest during the next tax year.
I'm going to pre-emptively cash mine out now. Avoid the rush, and buy that Gold like I want to =)
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 19:05
#214074
Don't you also have to show hardship, or something? I can't afford to quit my job. So you're saying it's possible to liquidate a 401-K early, by accepting tax penalties? My 401-K is right at 125K. What kind of hit am I looking at?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 19:17
#214105
If under 59 1/2, count about 1/3+ of the windfall going to Uncle Sugar and State....plus possibly pushing your other earnings into another tax bracket.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:46
#213719
Par for the course. Notice that as the baby boomers were accumulating retirement assets, Congress channeled those savings into Wall Street and bank-approved products only? Now that the withdrawal phase is set to begin, the government seeks again to favor giant financial intermediaries (this time including the life insurers).
Ever thought about taking your IRA balance and paying off your mortgage? Or using the funds to purchase a small business and being your own boss? Thanks to Wall Street and the banks, be prepared to kiss over half of your IRA good-bye due to punitive early withdrawal taxes.
This annuitization scheme is just more of the same.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:47
#214036
I'm not concerned about early withdrawl penalties. By the time I hit retirement age, fed and state (CA) taxes will be so excessive any penalties I pay this year will seem trivial.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:46
#213721
I cannot tell if this is coincidental, or in fact represents a further step towards institutionalizing the Ponzification (all rights reserved) of our Economy. Once the conventional sources of financing the monstrous debt and banker bailouts are exhausted (i.e., as all sane people grip their wallets even more tightly), it seems fitting that we should turn inward and convince those who remain "on the sidelines" to "invest" in new Treasury Perma-SuperSafe-Income Accounts (tm), where you dump the money in, where it is not retained in a special fund but is immediately loaned out to the Government in return for an IOU, and then later when you need the money (in installments of course, it would be irresponsible for you to ask for it all at once) the Treasury will begin payments to you at that time of freshly printed FRNs (wait a second, I thought that was called Social Security, where IOUs from the Treserve litter the floor of the trust fund accounts). In the meantime, in order to protect you from yourself, it will be nigh on impossible to liquidate any other investments anyway since all of them will be subject to new SEC rules giving them the right to close the redemption window at any time "if systemic risk" rears its ugly head.
Smells Like Team Spirit to me. Behave accordingly.
I have a new idea: create hangman's noose pins you wear on your suit like the Critters wear those American Flags. When someone asks you why you are wearing it, you can tell them you are part of the great majority of Americans who are looking forward to the revitalization of its use as a commonly resorted to criminal penalty for those who would engage in bank robberies, horse thievery, lootings of the citizenry and fraudulent schemes, and those who aid and abet those endeavors, even if they did think the world was coming to an end.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:36
#214001
Hell I'm thinking about just wearing a noose with my suit. I figure I can be a trend setter because at this rate Uncle Sugar will demand something like this or heart plugs ala Baron Harkonen. After all can't have the serfs get to uppity about them losing all their wealth.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:49
#213729
Most people will DOOOO anything for safety! And this step is like S/S, a scheme = to good to be true.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:50
#213730
Well... have you woken up yet?
Are you finally 'there' yet?
Are you ready to finally pull out all your funds from banks and Wall Street?
Sell off all stocks/trades?
Perhaps even go on a labor strike with your co-workers and picket your State government?
Or are you just sitting there like a good sheeple?
"In the absence of a gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. If everyone decided, for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good and thereafter decline to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as claims on goods. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to be able to protect themselves.
This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." --- Alan Greenspan, 'Gold and Economic Freedom' (1966).
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:41
#213910
Sell off all stocks/trades?
except commodity stocks/miners
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:53
#213927
Have debated making the exception of comms and miners... yet have given up trusting the .gov/SEC/CFTC/etc. ANY and ALL counterparty risk imho is to be avoided. As such, an ounce of gold or... in the hand is better than two on paper ETF/stock.
Yes, it is time to totally give up on the paper promises and move into actual PHYSICAL holdings. JMHO.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:30
#213990
Im not advocating everything in miners, but some. Get your physical, then if you like, you can start getting leverage with miners. But definitely have some base in physical. Personally Im in the gold miner stocks and my physical is in silver.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:53
#213734
FUCK!!!!!
THAT!!!!!
SHIT!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdIuWm4Xg0U
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 15:59
#213743
First the MMA SEC changes and now 401K and IRA consfication? Isn't stealing through inflation and fiat currencies enough?
If this goes down and the American People do NOTHING in return, then anyone who has their money in these paper games deserves what they get which is nothing.
God damn. Seriously.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:44
#213918
If this goes down and the American People do NOTHING in return, then anyone who has their money in these paper games deserves what they get which is nothing.
Which is exactly how these things end over and over through history.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:02
#213746
So, let the intergenerational civil war begin...
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:48
#213828
The Boomers have the numbers, but we still have good knees and backs.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:00
#213846
It all depends on where the lines are drawn...
I wouldn't be surprised if enforcement of various things becomes a lot more difficult in the near future.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 19:23
#214116
....and still a few Boomers around with damn fine Nam-trained sniper skills.
Might need glasses now, though.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:39
#214013
I see it framed like that but I disagree with it. Really it's the same bankers looting the hell out of us and then trying to provoke a fight to cover their crimes. Besides I've talked to the old bastards, and a lot of them tell me they didn't think they would see social security, they knew it was a scam when they were young. The #1 enemy of both the old and the young is the bank oligarchs and their crony government.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:02
#213747
1) AIG is one of the largest, if not the largest, issuers of annuities in the states.
2) The US Gov owns 80% of AIG.
3) The US Gov mandates annuities
4) Duh!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:03
#213851
Reminds me of Toyota's current problems.
US owns GM. Suddenly Toyota quality sucks.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:04
#213750
You thought you needed the money you saved? Well, your Uncle needs it More!So shut up already, just be glad you live here and not in Haiti or some other poor country. Crybabies. Besides, the next version of Obamacare won't let you get so old that you'd be collecting it all anyway. We'll vaccinate those geezers, jack the estate tax, and balance the budget, with some left over for Pelosi'd next junket. Uffa!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:06
#213753
Pitchfork time!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:06
#213754
Fact: The only way to cash out/rollover your 401k is to quit your present employer. Then and only then will you be able to access 100% of your funds.
Let freedom ring!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:48
#213924
The only way you will have access to 100% of your funds is to take it out of the system of fiat money or in an account that is with some institution. A 'national emergency' and your 100% access through BofA, or whoever is out the window. Unless you take your money completely out of the system its still in the system. Buy physical gold and silver. That's how you keep access to 100% of your funds.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 22:45
#214334
Exactly.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:09
#213758
I disagree with people's assessment that the sheeple don't care. Yes, of course, there will always be lots that don't give a shit. But lots and lots care a great deal and are horrified about what's happening to this country but aren't sure what to do, except for withdrawing money from the big banks, etc. Don't assume people don't care, and don't assume people aren't pissed about the way things are going. Whether or not you agree with the tea party protests in whole, these are people (myself included) that are pissed off and have gotten off their duffs to try to do something, anything to stop the madness. Of course our duly elected "officials" AREN'T LISTENING. We aren't going away, so the question is what's next?
It's discouraging to keep reading in the comments that people don't care--obviously many do. WHAT to do and how to mobilize is the question, and I guess we're still waiting for a leader...
on Sat, 02/06/2010 - 02:39
#220252
Well, a lot of people who are well-informed aren't in the United States, so kinda hard for us to lead what most definitely needs to be a local effort.
The first step is to understand who is in control, and it is not the politicians. So although that is a nice effort, it is also naive.
America is a fascist oligarchy. Fascism means big business and big government are indistinguishable. An oligarchy means a small group of people (billionaires) is in charge. So raising people's awareness of that fact couldn't hurt.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:09
#213759
I thought we already had a retirement program run by the government. Social Security 2.0
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 19:56
#214155
SS 1.0 gots no real money. Same fate will apply to SS 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 etc., etc.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:18
#213774
So I guess next phase is to requir employers to match contributions up to 8.65%? Let's see then with the match to FICA that would mean a 15% taxaction rate for businesses. Sounds sustainable. Will really turn those employment numbers around.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:20
#213777
Just did a quick fact check:
1. DOL's Employee Benefits Security Administration (yes, "security" is in the name) put on its agenda in Fall 2009 the issue of how EBSA can help prevent people from running out of retirement funds before they die.
2. EBSA has started a rulemaking process by (a) putting a notice in the Federal Register, December 7 (Pearl Harbor Day no less), 2009, of its intent. The link is here: http://www.dol.gov/asp/regs/unifiedagenda/fall_2009_agenda.pdf#1210-ab33.
3. The first step is a rulemaking process is issuing a Request for Information (the document above) supposedly in January 2010. The memo above appears to be a draft, not a final product, which should have a seal and would likely be single-spaced.
4. Besides the email address above, you may want to go straight to the source:
Jeffrey J. Turner
Chief, Division of Regulations, Office of Regulations and Interpretations
Department of Labor
Employee Benefits Security Administration
N 5669, 200 Constitution Avenue NW., FP Building, Rm N-5655,
Washington, DC 20210
Phone:202 693-8500
5. Better yet, contact the Secretary of Labor:
The Honorable Hilda L. Solis
U.S. Department of Labor
200 Constitution Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20210
Phone: (202) 693-6000
6. Even better yet: Contact your US Senators and Representative and tell them to keep the USG out of your retirement savings.
7. FWIW, two links:
--Agenda item: http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/regs/unifiedagenda/1210-AB33.htm
--FAQS: http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/regs/unifiedagenda/ebsafall2009/1210-AB33fs.html
In any conversation or email, refer to RIN 1210-AB33. That's this proposition.
Let's stop this madness!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:20
#213778
Social Security 2.0 - The Obama Zombie
The Government needs money. Social Security deposits are already a part of the budget. But the Government needs more. Trillion dollar deficits will be a companion for at least 1/2 a generation, optimistically.The debt will remain forever.
The next most benign place to support deficit financing is the 401K. Social Security will be positioned as the 'Good Pension'. The 401K + the Social Security Pension will be invented shortly and positioned as the 'Better Pension'. Just divert your 401K deposit to the Federal Government and watch you pension benefits accrue. Plus finance the deficit.
Look for the IRA Government Annuity to arrive next as the 'Best Pension'. Tax free, buy an IRA Pension/Annuity with your tax deductible IRA deposit and IRA savings/brokerage account trustee-to-trustee transfer and finance the deficit while making sure something is still available for retirement ... plus combine it with Social Security for a fine pension suitable for a good middle class retirement.
The IRA and 401K are a logical place to look to finance the coming huge deficits. All it will take is a little creative financing and the Government will be the Final Banker of most Americans soon. Frankly, I might even buy into it if the inlation riders look good and the payments imply a high rate of interest on the initial deposit.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:27
#213790
this would just be for company plans and union plans ect... private IRA's are exempt...right?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:41
#213811
".... private IRA's are exempt...right?"
Yup, until they aren't. You don't think this will sooth the savage beast do you? Please, once the government/squid has it's tentacles into this fresh new source of "capital" don't you think they'll want more?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:09
#213859
Sounds to me they are implying, that even if you are a retired union worker who opted for a cash payout, your now private IRA will still be fair game and subject to confiscation at their choosing. No more trading and making your own income by using your wits. Welcome to the land of the free, and home of the brave.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:49
#213926
exactly
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:59
#213844
This whole scheme was played out in Argentina just last year, and nothing was exempt. Of course the USA obviously is not Argentina, but the difference seems to grow smaller every year.
What I wonder is, how much of this can be implemented through IRS rule changes, without congressional approval?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:51
#213928
What I wonder is, how much of this can be implemented through IRS rule changes, without congressional approval?
You dont really think that 'congressional approval' will make any difference on it coming to pass, do you? If they want it - it will pass.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:34
#213798
Almost too late to get ready.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 23:42
#214392
body, mind and spirit.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:40
#213805
401-k's are the last untapped source of funds in America. The gubmint needs that $$$. Do the patriotic thing and give it up! They'll give you a nice annuity when you retire 20-30 yrs from now. Pay you like $10K a month. Of course $10K a month will buy a roll of toilet paper and banana by the time your retire.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:59
#213843
I'm glad to hear that! Our republic needs more bananas.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:11
#213864
Our new republic is actually named after one, no?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 21:27
#214247
Not sure about the "new" part, but otherwise - :)
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:41
#213807
Email sent. I'm sure I'll regret it.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:46
#213818
Can someone explain to me how this would work?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:49
#213829
in order to gain traction...they'll need to SCARE every-one...which of course means a market crash of HISTORIC proportions...
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:53
#213833
e-mail sent. (Look for new "enemy of the state" bulletin any minute now.)
next step, move retirement funds to non-US based facility & then make sure the assets are in physical commodities.
Final step, move out of the country as soon as it looks like this might pass.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:12
#213867
Ask a Swiss banker how well that might work.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:54
#213932
goldmoney.com
located in the british channel islands
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:55
#213935
You and me both. Eh...they already have a file on us anyway, right?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:57
#213839
KEEP YOUR DAMN HANDS OFF OUR MONEY!!!!!
Government involvement and a complete lack of regulation has cost people in this country TRILLIONS!!
The crimes just get more brazen and desperate with each day that goes by. They have already raided Social Security, now they want our last source of funds----
MAD MAX, here we come--
Go long-- Guns, ammo, gold, silver.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 21:28
#214249
Don't be coming after me! Go after someone who has stuff, and did bad things! Just look in a Manhattan telephone directory!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 16:58
#213841
Retirement annuity? Already have one called "Social Security."
Based on that worst-than-dismal (criminal) performance of the government ensuring the solvency of that annuity, they want folks to give them more??? I know past success does not guarantee future success, but I am pretty sure past failure is a guarantee of future failure.
They really do think we are imbeciles.
Sadly based on who we voted into office they have a leg to stand on with that view.
Folks, you need to respond to their request for comments -- they actually do treat it as a "poll" on the matter.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:13
#213868
+100
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 20:26
#214192
Sadly based on who we voted into office they have a leg to stand on with that view.
"We voted"? Uh sorry. I've made a lot of mistakes, but that one!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:06
#213854
Christ! Call up the friggin military to protect us from our mighty enemy, the Federal government.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:19
#213879
It's called divide and conquer. First they explain to the mainly young military that those old retired farts plotted all along to steal their family's future, get them all lathered up. I believe we just saw a little of that in one or two earlier remarks right here.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:06
#213855
First we ship the jobs overseas and now with new rules and regulations the best and brightest with the means will start to look overseas as well for a safe haven. In the information age does it really matter where you live? The birth of the multi-nationals in the 1960's were on to something, follow the smart money. God Bless you all.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:07
#213857
"and should it apply to the entire account balance?"
And should we crash the market?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:12
#213866
NEVER will Americans stand for this! As if losing 40% of the value of our 401K's thanks to our government's complete failure to regulate the markets wasn't BAD ENOUGH!!
I was listening to this senior citizen talk about that today on NPR as I drove to work. She was reflecting on how she had worked so hard her whole life, just to put money away for her retirement---had not gone on any vacations and has seen her 401K literally lose 40% of it's value..
She said she wishes she could do it over again and actually spend that money before the government and Wall Street had stolen it so cruelly from her. She can't get her life back to do over now--- so sad.
Thanks Wall Street!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:15
#213871
How much are we talking about here? What is the estimated value in 401(k)'s?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:40
#213906
Your Retirement Plan Will Soon Become Washington's ATM Machine, says Ron Holland: "Today over $15 trillion is sitting in tax-favored retirement plans, including $4 trillion in IRA accounts. Retirement savings make up 35% of all private assets. Washington is broke, the deficit is soaring and Congress simply can’t wait for Americans to retire so they can start taxing these funds. The politicians are tired of waiting; they need your money now."
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:16
#213874
The latest: targeting retirement funds which can eventually channel to the rulers’ social pipeline.
Read: THE COMING OBAMA RETIREMENT TRAP HAS STARTED! by Ron Holland, a retirement consultant who works in Zurich and is a co-editor of the Swiss Mountain Vision Newsletter who created the first self-directed hard asset IRA account for gold and collectibles back in the late 1970's. Here are excerpts:
“Mandatory IRAs just proposed by Obama Administration on 1/25/10 is the 1st step in stealth nationalization & forced investment of our retirement benefits to support the treasury debt market! Read the veiled report in Business Week.
…I fear that today the control, nationalization and ultimate confiscation of trillions in private US retirement plan assets is on the horizon. Rick Santelli alluded to the possible nationalization and forced investment into treasuries on CNBC as recently as January 8, 2010. There was also similar coverage on Bloomberg and Business Week.
Reports out of Washington indicate that new retirement annuities may be promoted by Obama aides. This is just the beginning! The question every successful American with substantial retirement assets must ask is "what will you do if our retirement funds are forced to become the buyer of last resort for US treasury obligations?" Unless you believe Congress and Washington bureaucrats will do a fair job of allocating and distributing your personal retirement assets between yourself and others, you must begin now to protect your assets.
… The largest source of liquid private wealth remaining in the United States is the $15 trillion in private retirement funds.
…I've been following the government move to raid private retirement funds since the early 1980's with my The Threat of the Private Retirement System book written in 1983. I warned again about this in my 1994 book Escape the Pension Trap. The threat receded somewhat with the Bush Administration, but it is now back with a vengeance and the revenue needs of Washington will eventually trump any government promises and guarantees...
You will be forced into another Social Security-like scheme with the proposed mandatory Guaranteed Retirement Annuity, with 5% of your salary confiscated into the program. You will also eventually find your existing retirement funds forced into the government program and you will lose your ability to invest and protect your retirement funds outside of the dollar, government bonds, and the US investment markets at some time in the future. The only questions are when and what the final details of this, the greatest potential wealth confiscation in the history of the world, will be.
…The risks and threats of standing up to Washington’s wealth confiscation and aggression are great. But we have to take a stand…
I believe the best retirement planning advice I can offer to successful individuals is to do exactly the opposite of what the government and most retirement or investment professionals suggest…
…I'm retired from the investment business. But I want to warn the American public about the growing threat to our retirement assets and benefits from a government gone wild, desperate for revenue, and looking for funds to buy their increasingly risky and ultimately worthless treasury obligations. You've been warned, I've done my duty as an American. t
In the article, Holland discusses each of the following headings:
Key Elements of the Obama Retirement Trap
Stealth Nationalization
Your Retirement Plan Will Soon Become Washington's ATM Machine
The Trojan Horse
The Devil Is In the Details
The Confiscation Event
You Will Be Forced To Become The Final Buyer of Last Resort For Collapsing Washington Treasury Obligations
You Are A Narrow Target of Opportunity: Not A Grand Conspiracy
There Will Be No Public Outcry Like With Nationalized Health Care
Don't Cry For Us Argentina
How the Government Benefits From the Guaranteed Retirement Annuity
The Majority of Low Income & Union Members Will Benefit At Your Expense
There Is Always A Crisis Just When the Public Needs To Be Motivated
What Would Spark this Nationalization?
Loss of Triple-A Status for U.S. Treasury Bonds
Terrorist Attack or Military Disaster
Another Economic Meltdown
Implications for Those Who Say "No"
How To Protect Your Retirement Benefits & Security
Strategies To Protect Your Retirement Benefits.
Holland then lists "Some Retirement Plan Protection Strategies For Your Review:," beginning with Simply Be Aware of the Risks and ending with Delay Could Be Fatal.
Read more: http://www.lewrockwell.com/holland/holland12.1.html
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:47
#213911
JR, do you remember the movie 'The Graduate' and the famous phrase "plastics"? Well, here's another one for you and any other ZH space monkeys who get themselves worked up in a lather about potential nefarious deeds being plotted by our very own government: Massachusetts.
Now, no one is suggesting that we will get real, meaningful change come Nov '10, but MA was the tell that revealed the tip of a growing movement that will eventually turn this country inside-out.
The cat is out of the bag. Obama had 1 year with a super majority, and all he was able to pass was just one 'stimulus bill' which was used to support state unemployment benefits. There aren't going to be any other programs that even come close in size and/or scope. The government tide reached it's high water mark a few weeks ago - now the impossible to resist force of the Moon is drawing the sea back out.
I do agree that these types of articles make great reading, but let's be realistic. After Nov '10, the US is going to be forced to default on some domestic obligations and make drastic cutbacks in certain entitlement programs. The next step (perhaps the key factor in the 2012 presidential/Congressional races?) will be eliminating the Fed via the creation of some new reserve currency.
Change is coming, but it's not going to be in favor of the Treserve.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:51
#214047
lol really? Do you really think the Red team will lift a finger to save us? So now they need 1 red team member to go along with this, funny what a few million dollars in bribes...er campaign contributions can buy now these days. If the Leviathan wants it bad enough you will see a surprising amount of bipartisanship on this. After all they may disagree on some policies but giving it hard and dirty to Americans is something both the Reds and the Blues can agree on. After all they will claim they need the money for funding. Without that retirment money how will they lead a jet-set lifestyles and afford to give money to the TBTFs?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 20:13
#214180
I think you’re on to something, B9K9! But we’ve got to keep mentioning the dangers, because they’re real. It’s stories like this that are turning the tide. Witness the response by Anonymous
#213921 below:
“If the government thinks it's going to take the money that my husband and I have been saving ALL OUR LIVES, the government has another thing coming. Especially since we sacrificed---we did not ever live beyond our means and always SAVED the most we could in our 401K. Just let them try to take our money and a revolution will be coming even if it's only me and my husband participating. We'll take out whoever we can and die knowing at least we tried and did not sit back and allow this blatant theft (one of among many) happen. This is just complete INSANITY. They will not take our money without a fight.
By the way, Anonymous, make that three who will be participating!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:18
#213877
yes i have a comment to make on this issue.
i am sick and tired of these fucks. nobody has gone to jail for the most part. money is being stolen left and right and nothing is being done about it. i say fuck them and this stupid idea to steal the money of the baby boomers who worked long and hard, getting ready for retirement, only to have the proverbial rug pulled out from under them and now these bastards have the audacity to ask for comments? fuck you US government. fuck you!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:31
#213896
Why not let Gold float higher, like a crate of mushrooms and 10 e's higher, and then move back onto the Gold standard. Govt.s' still have shedloads of the stuff -and if they don't, they can just nationalise a few mines.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:33
#213897
I don't know why everyone's panties are in a wad over this.
What's the problem? Embrace it. It's just our government looking out for all of us. I'm actually feeling kinda warm and fuzzy over this. In fact, to be honest, I'm downright moist. Makes me proud to be a part of this Obamanation.
Cheers.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:35
#213902
I just adjusted our 401k contributions to 0%. The may get what little I've managed to save so far, but I'll be damned if I'll give them any more voluntarily.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 19:39
#214131
Soon to be Manditory Maximum Contributions!
To Ensure the your Future Retirment is Fully funded!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 19:59
#214159
I did the same 2 weeks ago. It is a sin to feed the beast.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:41
#213908
First post--be gentle!
I dumped my ira's 2 years ago, the first time I read about
this. I paid the tax penalty and bought gold.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:57
#213938
nice timing. in ten years you'll be very glad you did - if you arent already!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:05
#213949
Actually yours is a very good first post.
You did the right thing in dumping your IRA and buying gold.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:50
#214044
well, we are not in kansas, so being in missouri, however "lost", is not all that bad ;)
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 17:47
#213921
If the government thinks it's going to take the money that my husband and I have been saving ALL OUR LIVES, the government has another thing coming. Especially since we sacrificed---we did not ever live beyond our means and always SAVED the most we could in our 401K. Just let them try to take our money and a revolution will be coming even if it's only me and my husband participating. We'll take out whoever we can and die knowing at least we tried and did not sit back and allow this blatant theft (one of among many) happen. This is just complete INSANITY. They will not take our money without a fight.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 19:13
#214097
Your money? Oh, you mean *false* money that is actually debt in the form of federal reserve notes? Your mistake is the same as most people make. A dollar is not a unit of WEALTH. It is a unit of DEBT.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 08:52
#214583
the consensus on here seems to be 'cash out your 401k, take the hit and buy physical gold and silver'. my girlfriend had a sizeable cash sum and bought physical gold at $780. she's glad she did. as for giving money to governments , its a bit like giving guns to children (unsupervised) . not a good idea.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:03
#213945
yeah that gold will be estate tax proof, since you lost it in Missouri.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:08
#213953
The bastards have stolen the funds from Social Security, and need more. So now they come for the lumpen masses 401k and IRAs. Weren't these provided to the middle class because they didn't have any vehicles that would allow a person to responsibly save for their retirement (but still only delay taxes until the future, when rates were assumed to be higher).
Take from the golden parachutes, from the residual campaign funds, from the Swiss bank accounts (remember, there were only 4,000 of 55,000 that were to be revealed).
Buy pitchforks and torches low and sell when the demand is high!
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:13
#213960
This will mark the end of Social Security.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:22
#213976
Tyler. Please keep us informed when they issue something similar for IRAs, particularly Roth IRAs.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:48
#214040
The FDIC is INSOLVENT. The States of the US government are INSOLVENT. The US government is INSOLVENT. The Majors are INSOLVENT. Most corporations are insolvent. They have plenty of DOELARRS, but they are insolvent. What does that tell you? Buy freakin GOLD...and silver.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:51
#214045
Can anyone say war bonds?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 20:06
#214173
War bonds to send AIG more money.
on Tue, 02/16/2010 - 14:32
#232820
Do the Roosevelt's still sell war bonds?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:56
#214058
Argent_ina.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 18:58
#214064
This is nothing more than a vile theft, but a base selfish side of me wants this. Hear me out. So if Uncle Sugar steals this 15 trillion it will float treasuries and the budget for at least 1 year with a little luck up to 5 before they steal and spend it away or otherwise "misplace" it. This time the dollar should hold up reasonably well because the presses won't need to be fired as much by Zimbabwe Ben. As I have already long since pulled my meager contributions I have no skin in the game except for what they further extract form me in taxes, an I always expect taxes to go up.
The only thing keeping me from cheering this in the name of base self interest is the fact it's totally morally bankrupt (Like basically all actions of government). I have parents that are freaking out about the possibility that they are so close to retirement (Less then 2 years) and Uncle Sugar is prepping to rob them. The pain I hear in my mom's voice when she talks about losing a lifetime of savings really gets me upset. I just have a hard time saying take it all out now, turns out I might have to suggest taking the 10% hit even though they almost qualify for withdrawals :(
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 11:43
#214796
Do a search for 72(t)/SEPP plans. There is a way to avoid the penalty.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 19:01
#214068
You simpletons don't understand...after all the Treasury allowed you to save this money tax-deferred, therefore its really their money anyway. Trust them this will be safer.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 19:08
#214083
Here's my "comment":
FUCK NO.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 19:18
#214107
Wow, just, wow.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 19:21
#214113
I questioned whether 401(k) liquidation was the route to go back in late 2008. At that time everyone I discussed it with really didn't give it much consideration so I rolled it into foreign equities not funded in US $, which has done very well btw. But now if this is where the future is headed, and I feared back in 2008 that this would come, I'll wish I had done it back then when the hit would have been less and Uncle Sugar would have gotten less.
This really pisses me off!
This administration apparently doesn't understand the concept of spending cuts, and I mean real spending cuts like getting rid of worthless deparments and agencies that do nothing but suck the life out of people and the economy. This is not what this country is supposed to be about.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 19:43
#214138
I believe that one can avoid the 10% premature penalty tax by taking distributions in substantially equal payments for a minimum of 10 years or until you reach the age of 59 1/2.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 20:34
#214204
Actually it is 5 years AND age 59 1/2.
A great site to get details is http://www.72t.net/Home
(No, it's not my site)
Of course this means you'll be getting a very small portion of your retirement account out each year and you'll have to separate from service to do it.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 19:52
#214147
Not much difference between this and a bank holiday, is there?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 20:39
#214207
Hey, maybe we should have a little fun before they screw us to death. Any guesses which insurance companies are going to get in on the deal?
I've seen AIG in a couple of posts.
How about companies through AARP?
I would guess ol Warren B will be looking to buy an annuity company shortly.
Any other guesses?
(First prize is the satisfaction of knowing you're catching on to this f-ing confiscatory gov't, which, is actually worth more than the dollar at this point!)
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 23:52
#214401
The red umbrella will DIE. For it's arrogance against the rain.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 20:43
#214208
There is no one here in my opinion that really knows what is going on here.
I have long ago fought a great battle with corporate America over my retirement.
My old company moved us form a defined retirement pension to a CASH BALANCE PLAN.
I got out with a reduced LUMP sum.
Now, who knows anything of truth here? YOU HAVE NO idea what truth means unless you tell it........
If you do not know what this is all about then please stay on sidelines...
cbplan4u
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 22:40
#214327
That's right, none of us could understand, since we weren't all lucky enough to work at some company that had a defined benefit plan...
boo hoo
I'll bet you're also the only one in the room "professional enough" to handle a Glock .40, eh?
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 22:35
#214320
My email:
So now in a lame attempt to plug the deficit and aid in the ability to reduce Quantitative Easing you have decided to steal people 401k's.The Social Security Trust fund was formed in 1935. 74 years later it is insolvent. There is no trust and there are no funds in the fund. Greenspan increased the tax 2x to fix it and Congress looted it.If I ran Calpers and borrowed pension money I'd be sitting next to Madoff.You people are hypocritical lying bafoons. Inept and incompetent crooks. The government is insolvent. Shrink it, don't loot the peoples life savings to toss it in the next bubble (THAT WOULD BE THE BOND MARKET FOR THOSE MORONS LIKE BERNANKE WHO COULDN'T FIND A BUBBLE OR HIS @SS WITH BOTH HANDS AND THE LIGHTS ON)
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 23:25
#214378
I emailed this to the DOL:
Re: RIN 1210-AB33
Attn: Secretary of Labor
Having read your proposal, I have to say, I am not impressed.
The gist of your proposal is to sweep all/part of a person's IRA or 401(K) balance into a government sponsored annuity. While your intention is noble, the idea is terrible and should be scrapped immediately.
The most obvious question is: why is the government even involved? The private sector has offered annuities for many years, and the regulators closely monitor the capital levels of the insurers to make sure policy holders don't get screwed. This system works well, but people aren't really cashing out their 401(K)s and rolling them into annuities.
Why is this? Perhaps the market is telling you that people don't actually want annuities. Or, even if this is a behavior flaw, I don't see why the government has to get into the annuity business itself. Why doesn't it just offer a further tax deferment for people to roll their balances into qualified annuities managed by the private sector? Why create another huge bureaucracy and let the government take on investment risks?
The second big concern is:
Let's assume the government got into the annuity business and received some umpteen trillions of dollars in 401(K) funds in return for an obligation to provide income for the rest of the retiree's life.
What will the government do with this money? Do you seriously want the government to take on this level of investment risk and potentially create yet another unfunded tail liability when we have so many already?
Of course, for a "risk free" return, the money could simply be deposited in long dated treasury securities. I believe we already have a government program like this: citizens pay small amounts over a long period of time into a fund, the fund is largely invested in treasuries, and the government implicitly guarantees the citizen a certain amount of income for the rest of his/her life. Yes. You guessed it. This program is called Social Security. Why do we want a second social security program?
The problems don't end there. Under this program, the Treasury would be competing explicitly with a number of private sector enterprises that already offer annuities. The Treasury is obviously a very powerful organization and can strongarm people into this program through the carrot or stick (it doesn't matter). But, assuming the Treasury competes "fairly", one of three things will happen:
1) The government would not be able to offer as high of a retirement income than the private sector, because the government would be invested in much lower yielding "risk free" treasury instruments. This would cause the treasury's program to fail because they would be unattractive to investors.
2) The government would have to take a major role in capital markets and make investment decisions with trillions of dollars. This opens a huge cans of worms about the government's role in capital markets and possibly opens the door to all sorts of corruption and abuses, or just plain old incompetency involving a substantial portion of our GDP.
3) The government creates yet another huge unfunded open ended liability -- if the treasury offers high annuity payments that are not supported by the income generated by its escrowed funds.
I would add to this list a fourth very real possibility:
This program would be a short-term way of paying for our giant fiscal deficit. Just like Social Security, the DOL's proposal would generate an immediate flow of money which would be available to fund immediate spending and thereby kick the can of our profligacy many years down the road. This is not healthy, both for the government and for the nation.
Anyhow, I highly doubt you would take my advise. I see the political expediency to this program: protect retirees, fund the deficit. It's a win-win situation, right? Well, that's just smoke and mirrors. I hope someone reads this missive and pays attention to it, but my hopes are not so high.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 23:28
#214382
I have to say I saw this coming. For the last four years I have been raiding my IRA (divided by 4 to lessen the tax pain / not get bumped into higher bracket) I pay the last penalty with this years taxes. With the proceeds I purchased gold in '06, '07, '08, and '09 for a dollar cost average price of $765. The 50% gain on my gold has more than covered the tax hit on the IRA withdrawls. And now, I don't give a friggin' hoot what they do! IRA confiscation with a few key strokes sure seems easier than gold confiscation (Oh yeah! they did that once too!) Same gov't - different era.
on Mon, 02/01/2010 - 23:44
#214394
I think you're all reading this wrong. Face it. Most Americans don't save so a "defined benefit plan" is probably the better deal for most Americans because with a defined contribution plan of zero, I can assure you your retirement will suck. And what does this have to do with the U.S. Treasury trying to steal retirement money?? Is there an assumption that 1) all 401Ks are in Treasuries, 2) The U.S. Government will run the annuity? 3) The lump sum withdrawl will no longer be available? Somebody please correct me, but seems like some serious GOP spin on this trying to protect business from picking up the retirement tab. Just a hunch.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 11:03
#214733
I can't tell if this is 100% sarcasm, or if you are one of the monkeys. I'm thinking probably the latter. People who save should get the benefit of saving. People who don't save, tough.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 14:32
#215026
They don't eat right or exercise enough either, so you saying we should solve that problem for them also?
Let me help connect a few dots:
Last week they discussed making sure money market accounts were chock full of Treasuries, and could restrict withdrawals;
They want to automatically enroll (with an opt-out) employees not just in 401k's but also mandatory IRA's if employers don't have a qualified plan;
Now they want to make retirement plans into annuities (which invest in a lot of ?) I'll let you fill in that blank.
See why some of us who are advocates for personal responsibility are getting a bit peaved and paranoid?
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 00:17
#214418
Sit quietly and imagine this for a second.
We got out of 401k. We got out of everything similar. We carefully adjust withholding to stay ahead of taxes each year. In fact, the recent $250 stimulus was given back to government in form of withholding.
We have just one 401k left. We cannot touch it. Except quitting work or getting fired Then we will get that check in a few days. It's only a few hundred dollars. *Shrugs.
Now imagine a future where there are no 401k, Social Security is insufficient, debt and interest ravages our society. Everyone wants thier money and they want it now. There will be a rise in JG Wentworth type businesses like weeds all over the same as Payroll Cashers did before they got run out of town. Sure we will give you $350 on that $400 dollar check due next Friday.
We will be reduced to a Society that relies on April 15 as a day of reckoning. Imagine all parts of our Society waiting until that day to learn thier fate, Refund or additional Tax?
Then everything moves quickly for a month, providing a illusion of boom times until next April 15.
What are we to do?
Nothing, I tell ya, nothing.
Nothing?! Easy. Stop going to malls and spending money you dont have. Stop falling for those 10% off promotions with store credit. Stop trying to have your Employer deduct so much money for everything that you have to eat hot dogs and oatmeal twice weekly to have the strength to be present at work.
This whole National Experience is slowly becoming sort of like a gigantic perverse twist on the old Movie "TRON."
If you are too young to have ever seen "TRON" Go watch it on DVD sometime. You will see my position.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 00:20
#214423
The idea that we even have an EBSA just blows my mind. Now there's something we could cut out and save something....I'm sure there's a lot of other places where we can cut.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 00:42
#214437
Why shouldn't pensioners and 401k contributors be looted? These are the same scum who voted for Bush and Obama. Let's not just take everything they have. Off with their heads!
Remember who we're trying to destroy here: the American people. There is no worthier goal.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 01:01
#214451
Those with 401k accounts are "the same scum who voted for Bush and Obama"?
First of all, people have 401k accounts because most employers offer nothing else. Second, putting money away for one's retirement is a hallmark of personal responsibility (sorry if that rubs you the wrong way.) Third, I'd be willing to guess that I as a 401k contributor am far from the only American who did not vote for either Bush or Obama (dumb and dumber).
And finally, my friend, the American people have already been destroyed; for the piece of evidence most immediately at hand, assess the critical thinking skills (or lack thereof) behind your comment.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 14:23
#215009
If you're serious about the "destroying the American people" part -fuck you. Why don't you head to Iran, or Venezuela where the rest of your "hate America" buddies are.
If I mis-read your comment and you were talking in the third-person, I take the fuck you back. :~)
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 00:51
#214443
I have a question... a serious question...
I'm 25. I'm completely jaded... have been since 15. Hated liberals, liberalism, communism, big government, et al.
My serious question: what the fuck am I looking forward to?
Should I just blow my tax refund on a good high powered rifle and plenty of ammo and hope I don't have to use it?
My God! You all have money to buy gold but I'm just getting started paying off my debts. Is there any future left for the honest man? Any hope for the law abiding citizen?
Is war... with all it's hell and fire inevitable?
Cause if it is, what do you all recommend for a good first firearm?
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 09:14
#214596
well if your prepared for it in mind ,body and spirit you have an advantage. whats happening is just a transition. when we're through this ,life will be great. follow your intuition.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 11:02
#214731
You should emigrate. SERIOUSLY. There are still places in the world where effort is rewarded and government is not quite so corrupt as ours. (And others where perhaps the corruption can work for you instead of against you.) Most of us have too many roots to move, but it sure doesn't sound like you do. Seriously, look into moving to another country. Here is a short list to look at - no particular recommendation:
Australia
New Zealand
Finland
Norway (good luck)
Belize
Panama
Cayman Islands
Chile
Brazil
China
Certainly each of those countries has its own issues, but all are worth looking at.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 08:25
#214563
If you feel that discouraged, your best bet is just to turn off the computer and enjoy life as best you can. As the saying goes, nothing is inevitable except death and taxes.
You have the rest of your life to look forward to. What you do with it is largely up to you.
Peace.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 08:46
#214575
Bushmaster XM-15, my weapon of choice in case things heat up.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 08:49
#214580
The document Tyler posted has been officially launched in the Federal Register as of February 2, 2010. Here is where you can find on the web:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-02-02/html/2010-2028.htm
If you want to comment to DOL or Treasury, your comments must be in by May 3, 2010.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 09:14
#214597
outright theft. frankly, this goes thru, I hope everyone takes to the streets.
theft. years of savings...gone to help larry, tim and Ben perpetuate their mistake.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 09:19
#214602
Ah, there is a much easier, non rabble rousing inciting way to stealth annex your future 401k/Ira income stream. Remember that the future income flowing from them provides tax revenues with the exception of the Roth.
No, the first step will be to means test SS, and make all income from retirement, including Roths(dems never liked them), or any other source applicable for reducing SS payments. It would be really easy to have SS payments go down once income hits $30,000, phasing it out by $50,000.
It works really well, reduces SS payments by the government in the future, and still have access to tax revenues of the retirement accounts.
Hell, both Repubs and Dems would be for it.
That's your first step
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 11:04
#214735
Roth IRAs are an interesting question. Yes, Dems would love to tax them. But it would seem to break the contracts clause (of that musty old US Constitution) to do so. Wonder where that would end up? Would government have even the tiniest shred of legitimacy after such a stupdendous breach of law?
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 11:01
#214729
Here is the real solution to have the government possibly take over retirement funds: If the government wants to try this new idea, first do a sample test with all the pension funds held for federal employees including Senators and Congressmen. After all, the governments already has control over these retirement programs. If this proves to be successful after 20-30 years of experiment, we might listen to this new idea. In addition, the government would also have to return all the funds to the social security and medicare programs and thus demonstrate that they are capable and responsible managers. In the meantime, lay off.
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 14:48
#215051
"Hey, look at that pile of middle class wealth over there that no one is using. Let's take that when T-bills start losing value. They aren't using it anyway. And they were so stupid that they bought into the bail out regime and now do more to sell it to each other than we do. We'll just tell them we're protecting them. We'll give it back when we figure out how... someday."
on Tue, 02/02/2010 - 23:22
#215603
Y'all are a bunch of pussies
George
on Wed, 02/03/2010 - 13:29
#216138
"Hey, look at that pile of middle class wealth over there that no one is using. Let's take that when T-bills start losing value. They aren't using it anyway. And they were so stupid that they bought into the bail out regime and now do more to sell it to each other than we do. We'll just tell them we're protecting them. We'll give it back... a week after Hell freezes over."
Thought I'd fix that for you, Anonymous #215051.
Seriously, though, I've expected means-testing to be introduced well before my time comes. I also expect them to reduce the specified pay-outs (not merely make no COLAs, actually cut back the amount on the check). And that's in addition to inflating their way out of this and other responsibilities. "Mr. Anonymous, here's the monthly $1600 we promised you. Do you want fries with that? That will cost an additional $400."
Hey, it's nothing personal; it's just that if you aren't paying taxes, you appear to the system to be a u-----s e---r.
on Wed, 02/03/2010 - 17:05
#216454
I used to tell people that it's too late to change things but to soon to start shooting. I don't think it's too soon any more.
on Wed, 02/03/2010 - 21:52
#216696
Tell Treasury To Go To Hell!
Mandatory IRAs just proposed by Obama Administration on 1/25/10 are the 1st step in stealth nationalization & forced investment of our retirement benefits to support the treasury debt market!
Also consider reviewing and link to “The Coming Retirement Trap Has Started” posted at http://www.lewrockwell.com/holland/holland12.1.html
You can receive a free copy of the complete 20 page report free by mentioning this website in an email Trap request to ron.holland@bfi-consulting.com
on Thu, 02/04/2010 - 04:00
#216890
Funny how most of these crooks are from the Jewish community or are Zionists. How is it that a community representing less than 2% of the populace determines what happens to the other 98%. It time to clean the house. Enough is enough. Get rid of the riff raff.
on Fri, 02/05/2010 - 14:13
#219387
When is this going to be update, when do they vote on this shit?
If they DO I'm cashing the 401k out.
UPDATES PLEASE!
on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 10:18
#221094
Here's the letter I sent:
To Whom It May Concern,
Do NOT under any circumstances change the rules for employer-sponsored retirement plans or individual retirement arrangements (IRAs) to require that existing money in these plans or new money added to these funds be directed, by mandate, into some form of annuity.
The U.S. government has screwed up its own finances to the point where it is the largest debtor nation on the planet and in the history of the world. Trillion dollar deficits are forecast for years. Unfunded liabilities of medicare and social security dwarf the acknowledged national debt. The largest insurance company in the U.S. completely blew up and is now a ward of the U.S. government. I don't want the U.S. government or companies like AIG, who might be selected to run the annuity plans, taking my money and giving me an IOU.
Additionally, we've seen the U.S. government transfer immense wealth to the very bankers responsible for the current financial crisis. You can bet that the real beneficiaries of forced annuities will be the bankers who administer the plans.
This is just one more example of "extend and pretend". In this case the government would take massive funds from individuals, to make the government's (and favored corporate entities responsible for managing the plans) near term financial situation seem better. But this will be at the expense of the individual and will probably, in the long term, only add to the liabilities of the government - which they are already completely incapable of meeting. (Anyone remember the Social Security Trust Fund? Years of excess contributions to the fund, which might have been saved and invested to support required future payments to retirees, was directed to the general fund and all that remains are IOU's! Nice move! Very prudent! Of course it did seem, while it lasted, to make the deficit seem better - more extend and pretend in action.)
Additionally, the long term financial implications of this action are extremely hard to assess. But I think one thing is guaranteed - It will further distort the investment landscape as trillions of dollars, now managed by individuals, will be funneled into a few firms responsible for managing the plans.
Please keep your hands off our hard earned money - which I might add, has taken many of us a life time of hard work and thrift to accumulate.
You did not work for this money. You did not sacrifice to save it and it is not yours. If you want to give all your own money to the government in return for an IOU feel free to do it. Please don't envision doing it with my money.
The purpose of Social Security is to provide a minimal guaranteed stream of income to people when they retire. You should NOT consider converting these other retirement investment programs into such a plan.
on Thu, 02/11/2010 - 05:39
#226416
Where is the logic??
But, there again, there is no such thing as political logic without MONEY!
Please, Obama (and staff), stop trying to identify with the American public when you have NEVER been a part of the American Republic.
Please move away from your healthcare concerns and onto National security and the U.S. Economy instead.
The smoke has cleared, and the mirrors aren't working.
Help us, help you.
Obama, you are not the President I voted for,but, you are in a position to help steer this country back to center.
If you would suggest the things that matter to the PEOPLE, such as, Economy=Jobs=healthcare=mortgage crisis over=no concern for concern.
But, as always, you guys in D.C. have to keep us afraid of something. Don't you???
Start running the country for the people, not what you think the peo9ple should for you.
Best of luck to the Administration at hand, but, My God(and yes I said MY GOD), WAKE UP.
I would gladly support you if you would stop treating your Presidency like a reality show,eg:
Backbone.
Intestinal fortitude.
And, STOP BOWING to foreign leaders and
Start lowering your ego to help the WORKING men and Women of this GREAT COUNTRY,
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
p.s. thi ain't muslim country.
on Tue, 02/16/2010 - 13:03
#232623
Trust in the Lord, Jesus Christ to guide your life and you will never go wrong. The present crisis is the background for the arrival of the Antichrist. The economic mess of the world has to occur first before his arrival. There are no prophetic situations that have to occur before the Rapture of the true Christians off the face of the earth by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. First receive Jesus as your Savior and let the Holy Spirit guide your whole life. If you listen to him daily, obey God in all of your Christian life, pray, and study the Bible scriptures daily you will make the correct financial decisions for yourself and your loved ones. D Cooke
on Tue, 02/16/2010 - 14:31
#232816
I am posting on this article to merely keep it alive. Forward to...everyone.
on Fri, 02/19/2010 - 18:48
#238257
Wonderful idea.
While they are at it, why don't they also create a system that takes a certain percentage, lets say 6.2%, from each person's paycheck and another 6.2% from the employer, and put that away for safe keeping for the individual's retirement.
Now, if only we can come up with a good name for it so we can sell it to the public....
on Tue, 02/23/2010 - 10:59
#241559
Time to move to another country
on Tue, 02/23/2010 - 21:00
#242618
Keep your %*&#)^@ hands off my retirement accounts.
on Tue, 02/23/2010 - 21:12
#242626
It has come to pass that we are once again poised to attack the Federal Government at it's root.
Perhaps Osama has been right all along when he stated that this Government is evil.
I tend to believe him and am ready to defend thyat which is mine and am prepared to die whilst taking others with me.