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US Citizen Killed During Gaza Flotilla Raid
It is one thing for a country to attack a boat somewhere out of sight (and soon out of mind, as the collective American memory fades after 24 hours, whether it is geopolitical, or 1,000 point Dow crashes) in which the people killed are foreigners: the administration can talk up its teleprompter game which achieves nothing, but gives the impression of action (very much the same as what is happening in the Gulf), until people, sick of the spectacle, desire to move on. However, when a US citizen has been shot and killed during an armed incident in international waters, well, then talking ain't gonna cut it. It appears this is precisely what happened during the Gaza flotilla raid: "The U.S. confirmed that an American citizen, identified as 19-year-old FurkanDogan, was killed by multiple gunshots during the Israeli raid on a flotilla carrying activists attempting to run a blockade of the Gaza Strip ." To quote Marcus from Bad Boys: "Shit just got real."
From Bloomberg:
The Mavi Marmara was carrying 581 passengers, about 300 of them Turkish and the remainder from about 30 other countries including Greece, the U.K. and Algeria, Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said on May 31. Arinc accused Israel of “piracy” for boarding the vessels in international waters.
Dogan was born in Troy, New York, according to State Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley. The Dogan family now has his body, which is en route to their hometown in Turkey for burial, Crowley said.
A second American was injured on the ships and a third in a subsequent protest, according to Clinton. The U.S. is looking into what had happened to the Americans involved, she said.
“Protecting the welfare of American citizens is a fundamental responsibility of our government and one that we take very seriously,” Clinton said. “We are in constant contact with the Israeli government attempting to obtain more information.”
Clinton said this week that the situation in the Gaza Strip is “unsustainable and unacceptable” and that “ultimately the solution to this must be found in an agreement on a two-state solution negotiated” between Israel and the Palestinians.
The flotilla raid and the uproar surrounding it haven’t affected talks between Palestinians and Israelis, Crowley said. U.S. Middle East envoy George Mitchell, speaking in Bethlehem, said there should be a renewed focus on the talks.
From a purely diplomatic perspective, the continued attempts by the Obama administration to play down international outrage, when none other than an American citizen has been killed, will look very suspect to the international community, and risks the spillover and redirection of global anger, currently aimed at Israel, straight at the US.
In other news, AP provides advance notice of a Larry King interview with President Obama on this topic:
President Barack Obama is calling the deadly Israeli raid on an aid flotilla bound for the Gaza Strip "tragic" and says the loss of life that resulted was unnecessary. Obama stopped short of condemning the actions of Israeli forces, saying that the U.S. wants to wait for an investigation.
Obama says he believes Israel should agree to such an investigation because the incident isn't good for their long-term security."
Obama spoke in an interview with CNN's Larry King airing Thursday night.
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Fuckin laugh at it. It's not.
Having a negative reaction to something a jew does is not antisemitism. Being opposed even to the State of Israel is not antisemitism.
It's just the race card bullshit invented by the multiculturalists through jewish organizations like the NAACP and SPLC being played to cloture debate.
Europe's reaction to all this is a little more normalized, because their public policy isn't steered by AIPAC and they don't have a veritable legion of dual-citizens in their governments.
Tyler is a Nazi for re-reporting the Jewish perspective?
WOW!
Great Story! Keep sturring the pot my man!
x 1000.
Look TD, do you want this site to be taken seriously or do you want it to be overrun by the far right, far left and other far whatever?
At this point, you ve got credibility in the eyes of your long term readers/followers however with each of similar thread that turns into yet another cultural war, this site becomes rather lame battleground of fools.
Pretty much you are killing off the quality of your audience. Is it your goal, to be a leader of fools?
If I were you, I would think twice prior to destroying something you worked so hard to earn - our respect.
Please advise which topics should be taboo on Zero Hedge
Funny.
It's your site, your rules. You can spin my statements in whatever manner you like. If you chose to focus on provoking shitload of hateful emotions instead of a reasonable discussion or agenda, it is absolutely your right.
However don't be surprised if people will take ZH as a joke instead of useful and valuable source of information.
No spin. And in the future we will be very careful when selecting potentially sensitive topics like the Gaza Flotilla, the Federal Reserve, market structure, Goldman Sachs, regulation, Iran, market manipulation and others. In fact, in order to not be taken as a joke, we will make sure to link to stories in venues like Bloomberg that are sure to inspire no reaction in the readers at all, or at least to provide a bubble chamber of infinite approval.
I dont know if Lizzy sent you the e-mail or not; but CdC formulated his thoughts somewhat wrong here. Its about a certain type of comments and commentators under these articles, not about the content. As i said, its never about the content.
+1
Personally, I am glad that Tyler clarified his position, and, I admit that i have been enlightened by stories like this. I actually thought that a Jew bastard by the name of "Iceberg" sunk the titanic. (drum roll)
Very witty!
Please include more coverage of the gasoline tanker bombs set off in the local mosque by members of an opposition sect wishing to send their fellows to meet the virgins.
While you're at it, stay away from peak oil, global warming, and Lance Armstrong's medicine cabinet
on Thu, 06/03/2010 - 17:17
#392848
Please advise which topics should be taboo on Zero Hedge
NONE! whatever you want Bro... it's a Free(ish) Country and this is your site! You are doing GREAT!
God Love Ya!
God Protect Ya!
My very best to You and Yours Tyler, JW
+ USA unfunded liabilities
Someone had to said it; and Im glad it was you CdC.
While not reporting on this is worse than having a comment section filled with cretins who came here from jewatch.com, ATS forums etc etc; something should be done about that. If anyone links a site, an article or anything remotely connected with holocaust denial ones IP should be banned. Forever. That is the only solution. Also, the constant Rothschild conspiracy theories [in light of all the evidence that the Rothschild's are very much like Astor's; insignificant] I see here make no favor to ZH. I know the intelligence of an average human being is somewhere in the region of 72, but come the fuck on people; proof read and back up with credible references [which should also be up-to-date]what you post or do not post at all.
If you think you are being smart or that we need you "inputs" and your "thoughts" you are very much mistaken.
It's a fight club. Let the hammerheads speak and everyone else can take a shot at them. Look at what has happened over at Baseline Scenario. They started worrying about "astroturfing" and then set an editorial flavour. The next thing you know they are writing about the history of the personal computer.
Leave it as it is. The world can be a rough and tumble place at times. These impure thoughts are out there in the public. When they surface, they may be value as an indicator of sorts.
With all due respect; I have been here since day one, so I know about the philosophy of this place somewhat more than you do. And I did not wrote the above comment for shits and giggles. I do have my reasons, and so do other "old timers".
CB goes 'bleeding deacon' on us...Love ya though.
Just sayin'...
I'm not going "bleeding deacon" on anyone. I mostly stay quiet or comment only on [some] finance related topics. So what, I now cant express what I think about someone schooling me on something I'm more than familiar with. I know I'm "in your face" kind of guy and that gets a lot of people pissed, but thats far from being a "bleeding deacon".
I took your absence from the IP post comments as a sign of what a time sink they are.
Cheeky, big fan, whatever you do please don't get the hump and disappear from these pages, without blowing smoke up your ass I find you borderline inspirational.
I've even got some Chopin and Pavarotti...
All the best
Rather than editing the content, put the poster in the penalty box for a period of time. Revoke posting privileges. Tyler could be upfront about it and say that you get "Junked" X number of times, you can't post for a day or two, or you can't post on the topic. This stuff would be temporary and allow someone who went overboard to see the errors of their ways. It would also allow the community to do a little self policing in a tribal way. Who knows, something good may come of it.
But you have to admit from the business model perspective, these topics generate a lot of rage and page views. People love to mix it up.
You never see CogDis commenting on the IP posts either. Your thoughts and perspectives are most respected on these pages, and given your usual acerbic style, your level-headedness on this thread is much appreciated. I suspect that certain TDs truly care about this topic, but I'm sure that the multiple hits they generate don't hurt the bottom line (i.e. getting more traffic - dare I say exponential growth ; ) - to this site). To their credit, TDs do post a lot of the DPRK saber rattling stories as well.
curious this computer IP ban or denial.
i believe this is what happened to me over at VeloNews.com
damn they removed all my comments, and won't let me make comments any more.
i raised some hell and they won't answer me back.
i don't even have a naked picture with velobabe.
all the guys loved me and would vote they liked my comments and would email me to answer them, immediately. they are pissed too.
i got dirt on some of the old best cyclists, that articles are written about. the good old days. good blackmail stuff, too. i don't hold back. maybe i fucked one of the editors at velonews, probably.
now i can't even get on. pissed†
they can do that, right, probably what happened!
leggo my ego
Did Lance do HGH? I wont tell no one, I promise!
Is velobabe really a "Lance?" If so, I think it was GHB, not HGH.
Ask Landis:
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=5203604
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870369180457525541085532112...
We all want to believe that Armstrong is clean. It's that hive mentality that CogDis talked about earlier this week. If only I worked hard, I too could become a cyclist champion. Just because I allow myself to be mediocre doesn't mean I couldn't be great if I didn't put in the time and effort. My guess is that Lance discovered the properties of steroids et al. during his cancer recovery...
Excellent comments.
Over the last couple of years, I've witnessed the message-board equivalent of Gresham's law: bad posters drive the good posters out of the discussion. Given ZH's wide readership and the level of expertise of at least 10% of its readers, the posted comments should be more illuminating than they were at the beginning--instead, they're worse than ever. Tylers' posted comments--especially the ones that state news instead of analyzing it--should be the starting point of discussion&analysis, and therefore the least insightful section of the page; instead, the Tylers' posts are increasingly frequently the only part worth reading, and it's frustrating to watch a vibrant site based on a superb set of ideals degenerate to the equivalent of the yahoo message boards.
Of course, this is my one opinion, and ZH can obviously do whatever it likes in this regard.
"The wise speak because they have something to say; fools speak because they have to say something."
Or "empty vessels make the most noise"
Given we're talking about a president that ordered the assassination of an American citizen, I'm not sure the "citizen" distinction means anything anymore.
Where's my real tiny violin? The flea-ridden patchouli-smelling terrorist-aiding liberal douche got what was coming. Chalk one up to the good guys. Let's move on to matters more important.
Seriously, any one on that boat had one mission..."let's fuck with the Israeli military!" Mission accomplished for this prick.
Yeah! Kill anyone who stands up to arbitrary, oppressive authority! Damn smelly hippies!
That's right, kill em all and let god sort it out.
[God]: "Smelly hippie, to hell with you!"
Got to agree. Might defines right.
"Got to agree. Might defines right."
Out on the water, we call it the "gross tonnage rule." "He with the most gross tonnage...rules."
Yup, and the reason the palestinians don't have a state is because they haven't been competent so far to take and make one. Nobody anywhere else expects to be "given" a state for fuck's sake. I mean, maybe the delusional faux separatistes in Quebec think that, but parallels are that hard to find.
Wrong. Might trumps right, as demonstrated in big finance vs. the people.
.
Shed no tears for a stupid Jihadist and supporter of Hamas terrorists.
American citizen ? So what ? Stupid hatemonger jihadist.
Just like we shed no tears for Adam Gadahn or John Walker Lindh or the Pakistani AMERICAN CITIZEN who tried to car bomb Time Square or the AMERICAN CITIZEN in the ARMY no less who killed AMERICANS in Ft. Hood.
This stupid 19 year old is no different; his motives no different; and deserves pity but no false outrage.
How do you know he was a jihadist? There were tens if not hundreds of people on that boat, from aid workers to Nobel laureates.
So present one iota of proof that this young man was jihadist, and not just a cabinboy on the boat. Present one iota of proof. I dare you to find just one.
Everyone who stands up to Israel is a terrorist, and must be killed or detained and "interrogated".
It's amazing to me that people who watched Bush/Cheney label everything that moved a "terrorist" in order to justify their ridiculous over-reaching for 8 years, can't seem to recognize it when Israel does it.
Israel: "We screwed up? Umm... look over there, terrorists!"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/06/02/ap/world/main6541706.shtml
That's the issue here, any talking against israel is not allowed in their minds of some pro-israelites. they suddenly lose their humanity, the other side becomes a terrorist and must die according... its very sad to see people who has no love to others think differently.
Chet, he got shot 4 times in the head and once in the chest. This was after the Turks had laid the lumber on the commandos and took a couple of handguns. I would bet this kid was one of the Turkish shooters. Anyway you look at it he left an impression on the commandos. They took him out with extreme prejudice.
You fucktard, is Hennig Mankel a jihadist?
Fundamentally it comes down to those who are angered at the Gaza blockade as using this to further their demands for it to end.
You have to admit that Israel stepped in it. He was shot FOUR times to the head. Sorry for the pun but "overkill".
4 times in the head... finally, a successful Topkill.
Hopefully the bullets were larded up with pigs grease.
Ah, junked again, at least I know I'm pissing off two of em.
Sadly, we can't see exactly who the junkers are!
Just keep junking though, I want to be somebody, seems just gettin' your name in the phone book doesn't count anymore.
I would be one of the junkers for you both... and clearly something went horribly wrong during your formative years. Perhaps you would like to share your eloquent thoughts directly with the parents of this young man... however I would suspect that you speak easily within the comfort of anonymity on ZH... however if in the presence of this young man's parents cowardice would emerge and the same words would be withheld. Remember empathy... in respect to both the Palestinians and Israelis... because without humanizing empathy this conflict will never be resolved. Remember that most of the Israelis and Palestinians are victims of this conflict... they are struggling to simply survive as we all are... and each side has tiny children with hopes and dreams of 'what they want to be when they grow up' just as our own children do... so rather than celebrating the 'kill', perhaps infuse your thought process with a little humanity and empathy.
I'm just a pot stirrer, could give two shits less about your humanist ideology. You can stick your humanism where your head just popped out of, namely your arse.
Ostriches may like to stick their heads in the ground to deny reality, but liberals like to stick their heads in their assholes to deny reality.
The Universe doesn't cry tears, maybe bleeding heart liberals from Minnesota have an endless supply, but I'll I can do is wish you the best with that pack of Somali criminals you've imported into your state.
How long do you thing you would survive if you decided to move to Somalia, or Gaza, or the West Bank you lily livered liberal.
Such big thoughts from such a little man... does your head hurt now from all that thinking?
Thanks for dropping by and giving me my propers.
Its amazing how you like to judge other people as you see fit but deny them the right to judge others as they see fit.
I'm a little man with big thoughts and I need some aspirin to help aliviate the pain of thinking.
My, how your rhetoric has degenerated into putting me down while deriding me for putting someone else down.
Here's a tissue, would you like a shoulder to cry on?
I'm only judging one single man by the merits of what he has cumulatively posted tonight... you on the other hand are judging large groups of people based on things that they likely cannot easily change such as nationality, faith, minority status, etc... and making them into perpetrators or victims based on your own bias. For example, I assume you are an American... and if you are I certainly wouldn't want people in Europe to lump me into the same 'American category' as you... because we are clearly very different. And individual people in Israel are different from one another... and individual Muslims are different from one another... etc... And nope... no shoulder is necessary... but thanks for the offer... you will likely need your own shoulder to cry on :-)
@ MinnesotaNice -
Formative years???!!! Look at the avatar you dummie - the guy is pure evil!
Even 'pure evil' had a mother and a father to bring him into this world...
If you are silent when people are making huge generalizations about certain nationalities, faiths, or minorities... then that becomes the status quo... and that has not been the status quo at ZH for a long time... and I have been here since shortly after the inception of ZH.
Remember... there are likely many people who enjoy reading ZH who are of those nationalities and faiths... and who may not feel comfortable confronting someone who is doing generalized drive-by bashing such as 'pure evil'.
FYI
Its so nice to see you back.
Hey there Cheeky... nice to be back :-) You were gone for a while I noticed... but I was on hiatus for a while also... nice to hear from you.
Oh for fuck's sake, get off your moral high horse and have a little fun. You sound as if your head were going to come to a point in the next thirteen seconds.
Do us all a favor and puff up your pillow tonight and have a good cry. Everything will be better tomorrow. Israelies and Palestinians will start hugging, dogs and cats will start humping each other, and the lion will lay down with the lamb.
I for one know my opinions are just shit, but I enjoy throwing them around just to see where they might stick.
Oops, looks as if I got a huge chuck of stinky turd all over you. Try not to make it worse by rubbing your nose in it.
</SNARK>
First of all... I am a woman... so it is unlikely you will have the last word :-)
Secondly, you seem to be quite intelligent and have some interesting thoughts... but your message becomes lost in the rhetoric of bashing other nationalities and faiths for little or no apparent reason... just sayin'.
Cass Sunstein
What's with all the macho men in cyberspace...she's a lady so act appropriately or is chivalry another terrorist act to you. P.S is that you coldcalll
You make very valid points. These kind of people do not have any valid argument only spew their vitriolic opinions.
Finally sanity...my thoughts exactly
Give him a couple more for me.
It has been reported that at least two of the Israeli pistols were taken by the "innocents". Until that report is disproved, how can anyone interested in a dispassionate discussion of the facts be totally certain of who shot whom? Martyrs are created in many different ways.
Dude, you gotta take sides in this issue. Pick up a gun and start blasting away. Did you just shoot your own team member, so much the better, both sides can spin it to make themselves look good.
It doesn't matter which side you're on, just pick up a weapon and start killing the enemy.
Or kill a few of your own to make certain that there are martyrs.
I'm not saying that happened. But at this point, we don't know enough to say that it didn't happen.
Nice try - no sale.
I and four heavily armed friends attack your family in the street - miles from my own home - because I know you want to deliver a cake to my neighbour (who I don't like).
You wrest a gun from one of my friends (none of us are scared because we know you've got Buckley's chance of hitting anything: anybody who has ever been in a firefight against untrained enemy knows that the risk of serious injury are almost zero).
In the process, your son is killed.
I claim 'self defence'.
Who is in the wrong?
If anybody requires more than five seconds to determine guilt: let's assume I am Iranian and that RichardP's last name is Pearlstein... easier now?
Cheerio
GT
You are wrong to have set up a false analogy.
Your guilt of propaganda spinning is evident.
Cheerio.
No one's wrong.
I watched a red cardinal chase down an insect today, kill it, and eat it.
Was that wrong? Not to the Cardinal, his belly was temporarily filled.
The universe sends an asteroid that kills all but the most simplest life forms on Earth.
Is that wrong? If so then you should start manning the rage ramparts right now before the next asteroid large enough strikes Earth.
Is it wrong for the african lion to chase down their prey and kill them and eat them?
Is it right for a group of people to send a flotilla of ships to Gaza even though they know that there are sanctions in place by Israel.
Is it wrong for humans to eat animal and plant life to live? Shouldn't we just eat dirt instead, don't the animals and plants have rights too?
If you pulled a knife and started in my direction threatening to kill me, but I pulled a gun and blew your head off, am I in the wrong?
If they wanted to send humantarian aid to Gazans why not go through the proper channels?
Obviously by trying to run the Israeli blockade these people were looking for a fight. Doesn't matter whether the Israelis have the right to impose a blockade or not. The blockade was in place, they decided to run it and nine people tragically payed the price.
Tomorrow militants in Iraq will blow up a mosque killing 40 people, but there seems to be no outrage about that. Did you post comments outraging against that last week? Next week Turkey will bomb Kurds fighting for National Independence but no one gives a fuck about that.
The Chinese continue to displace the Tibetians but yet, that's so blase'. The world is full of atrocities on a daily basis but, yet we only man the rage ramparts when it's the JEWS.
Where was all the rage when Hamas was firing rockets into Israel?
Hey, Pure, just so you know, I am jewish. Today, I am laughing with you. Peace.
I wonder in what world you live.
Pure drivel.
A few years ago, Tibetans assaulted Han's properties in Tibet. The Chinese sent in the police crowd control.
Funny one. Like Blacks in a black ghetto assaulting white people's properties and the US sending in the police crowd control.
Dont tell me this story was not largely publicized in opposition to China (hilarious when you think of the story) A mass hysteria powered by the free press hammering the topic day after day engulfed the whole world.
The story is still fuming on YT!
What you fail to say is not you dislike certain stories done by certain people to be publicized. That is all.
Dont claim that others dont get their stories publicized. They have and in dimension much bigger than this one. It seems that little publicized is already too much for you.
Look TD, do you want this site to be taken seriously or do you want it to be overrun by the far right, far left and other far whatever?
At this point, you ve got credibility in the eyes of your long term readers/followers however with each of similar thread that turns into yet another cultural war, this site becomes rather lame battleground of fools.
Pretty much you are killing off the quality of your audience. Is it your goal, to be a leader of fools?
If I were you, I would think twice prior to destroying something you worked so hard to earn - our respect.
Looks like you might have hit your "Ignore Israel's War Crimes" button twice by accident.
It is not about that. It is about the comments that one can find more often than not under the articles which deal with I-P issues. Tyler just reports the news [and often in a very neutral manner] but the neo-Nazis who link holocaust denial sites and speak against the whole "race" of human being as oppose to the actions of a State should have their IPs banned and should return to whateverthefuck basement site they came out of. The problem is not about the content [and will never be about the content] but about the idiots who think the shit in their head can function as a brain; when it can not. Often the article gets "polluted" with cretins, who have not read a book in their life, spewing the same kind of rhetoric [often much worse] which was printed in Völkischer Beobachter.
That's exactly why those commenters are posting those comments. It's not just on ZH. I'm sure some of them are even getting paid to make those comments. It's to drown out any intelligent, reasoned discussions.
Without question. There are folks who would sell their own mother, father, husband, wife, son or daughter on any street corner or into the international slave trade if it would help them amass brownie points with their directors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
Agreed.
Agreed as well. (hope you weren't including me in there...)
I know I'm not.
Look, I am a village idiot, what do I know? that being said, Let's all believe for a minute that this story was posted so we can see where the true colors lie. I got the names on every one of you corksuckers out there, and once this post blows over, up to 439 posts by the way, I am gonna know who I am listening to when the subject turns back to the "usual." You all know who you are now..and so do I. Nicely played, Mr. Durden.
EDIT: In all seriousness, I like to see what comes out of the woodwork when a story like this gets posted. I get to see how much flotsam has drifted in, and, what is hiding behind the "regulars" on this site. Tonight, it felt like comic relief to me, but being Jewish,and a proud Jew at that, sometimes I am conflicted by this site. That being said, the good definitely outweighs the bad. Keep up the good work, TD.
can't agree with this...it's a free forum.
We have junk buttons and we can remove comments that are consensus offensive.
Dirka Dirka Furkan.
Muhammed muhammed jihad!
Sounds like Rachel Corrie jumping in front of a bulldozer all over again... Yawn
Do you have the courage to stand in front of a bulldozer? That girl had more guts than you big guy.
Ah, just like it took guts for her to burn the American flag in a foreign country in the days before... Or did you conveniently forget that aspect?
Standing in front of a bulldozer is nothing but ignorance; underestimating the will power of your adversary.
I think she understood her adversary to be murderous oppressors, and they did a pretty crappy job of proving her wrong. Just like the people on this aid flotilla.
Obviously this was a PR move, but it worked perfectly because they knew the Israelis are belligerent, overreact to everything, and see Arabs as lesser-value human beings.
This whole situation is an example of Israel's folly, yet their so-called friends over here are cheering them on. Never has one side won so many battles in the course of losing a war as the Israelis.
Ah, see, you are a moron. Many Israelis are Arabs, and many members of the IDF are Arabs. You truly don't know WTF you are talking about and are just parroting far-left Iranian talking points like a senile and rambling Jimmy Carter.
I think you want to check your facts. Israeli Arabs are second-class citizens. Israel is explicitly a Jewish state. (We would never abide a state-sponsered religion here of course, but "it's okay if Israel does it.")
If you don't think that Israelis are a prejudiced people, you really need to visit Israel.
You seem to think that Arab is some kind of religion... I do have news for you - it is an ethnicity. Arabs are not second class citizens in Israel in fact, and you are just talking out your ass.
If you want to see second class citizens, try visiting Iran. The list of second classes is many.
Please send me a link on all the Jewish Arabs in Israel.
Same goes for Semitic. Still, it keeps being used for ad-hominem attacks at any unrelated criticism - even if, in this case, truth might not only be quite, quite shocking and embarrassing, but actually even quite, dare I say, existentially challenging...?:
http://www.haaretz.com/general/shattering-a-national-mythology-1.242015
If you want to see second class citizens, you can also just go to Israel: there's plenty of Muslims, Bedouins, non ethnic-Ashkenazi - specially Blacks - even women(!), to serve as an example.
There are other religious states in the middle east with second-class citizens. Where is your outrage for the oppressed of Iran, and Saudi Arabia?
Out of all the rhetorical devises that Israel's supporters use, this one is my least favorite.
The conditions in Iran or Saudi Arabia in no way absolve the conditions in Israel. It's not okay for Israel to behave however it likes and then point to Iran and say "what about them."
This thread isn't about Iran or Saudi Arabia, so my opinions on oppression there didn't come up.
You said that religion-based nations are inherently apartheid. I pointed out there were more; you don't want to talk about that. You also don't want to talk about Hamas. You don't want to talk about the injured commandos, or the fact that the protesters goal was to cause an incident, or the fact that they fought the boarding party. You just want to narrow the scope to one thing.
On that narrow basis, you definitely win your argument. You win the gold medal prize for argument framing.
As I just said, we weren't talking about the other nations.
I'm happy to talk about Hamas.
The commandos were injured because their commanders made a stupid decision to board. The people on the boat were killed because they made a stupid decision to attack soldiers. But they had every right to attack boarders in international waters.
You're making the logical fallacy that state-sponsered violence is defacto legitimate, and protest violence is defacto illegitimate. That's not the case. The world is repleat with examples of unjustified official violence, and justifiable violence from non-state actors.
We agree that the direct reason they were shot was resisting the boarding. Where we disagree is the definition of murder; if a cop stops me because of mistaken identity I can make a complaint later. What I cannot do is fight the cop, without expecting to be hurt. Even if they were legally within their right not to be boarded, when they chose to fight it was a new ball game. The proper course would be to comply and complain later.
So if a cop from France busted into your hotel room in Cancun you'd be perfectly ok with returning with him to Paris to clear things up?
WTF am I reading?
It's a variant of the tu quoque rhetorical device (although it's not "You do it too", it's "But THEY do it too").
So if 'Israel' engages in collective punishment, blockade, defiance of UNSC resolutions, extrajudicial assassinations, kidnap, torture and so on... well, the hasbarat just scribble "Hitler did all those things, and Amedinijad is Hitler Redux with Nooooks, and you're an anti-Semite and everyone except us are terrrrrrists".
Similarly, when people whine about suicide bombers, I alwys make sure to mention the King David Hotel, the Lavon Affair, and some of the other acts of terrorism perpetrated by Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang.
"Fruit of the poisoned tree" fits nicely: if you found a nation (modern Israel) on theft, terror and ethnic cleansing, you piss the Universe off... and if your primary patron runs out of money, you're fucked.
And before anybody mentions the Indians ("Native Americans" I think they are called now by right-thinking white folks) or the darkie indigenes of other white settlements (e.g., Aboriginals in Australia) - I absolutely agree that what Whitey did was awful and that anybody who babbles about kicking out immigrants needs to go fuck themselves unless they give the land back to those they stole it off (or defrauded out of it).
But what would I know - I am part spear-chucker.
Speaking of schwarzers... wanna see a darkie race that doesn't get fucked with? Google "Maori Wars"... the Maori still own New Zealand, and if the pakeha ever get too uppity, the Maori will absolutely declare war again (some of them/us are itching for it).
Cheerio
GT
+ zillion
Who cares about New Zealand? Enjoy your sheep...
Awesome stuff Geoffrey... awesome stuff!
enjoy your posts, keep em coming
Was there a few years ago, got along smashingly.
Except with the Arabs on the Mount. So, fuck 'em.
At some point, the fuckin town ain't big enough and someone gotta go.
Stepping in front of a moving bull dozer is not courage, it is stupidity. To not step in front of a bull dozer does not show a lack of courage but an aptitude for cogent reasoning and thought.
Remember Bill Maher saying the 911 hijackers were brave because they stayed on the planes? As if murder is brave.
"As if murder is brave."
It is when Israel does it.
It is when any army does it. Armies spend more time and energy justifying themselves than they do killing people.
I would really like to know how many lawyers are employed by various armed forces versus various civillian populations.
She was determined to commit suicide for illogical reasons ande achieved her goal. That is not courage, it is stupidity.
This guy interred Rachel Corrie in grand style a few years back thusly:
I can't get no hippie traction:
http://armor.typepad.com/bastardsword/2004/01/i_cant_get_no_h.html
There are ten or twelve other great ones. Put down all coffee and food before opening.
Try sending a flotilla into Iran challenging the legitimacy of their recent elections. Likely they'll be jailed, tortured, killed, and disappeared.
Try sending a flotilla into China challenging the legitimacy of the Communist Party. Imprisonment, show trial, rot in jail. Probably some torture thrown in for good measure.
Turkey is notorious for their hell hole prisons. Ask the Armenians about the peaceful Turks.
Oh, in the Muslim countries if you don't wear your Burka and keep your mouth shut you'll be stoned to death. Or maybe just have your hands chopped off.
You're defending that?
So I can rob you because it isn't as bad as murdering you?
Seriously weak argument there buddy... The point is that liberals allow Iran to commit any number of atrocities and they say nothing, yet when the Israelis defend themselves from a rogue vessel, they are condemned.
Were they defending themselves from the textbooks, or the pokemon backpacks?
Someone refuses inspection, they are out of compliance. Kind of like when an officer says "freeze, don't move" and the idiot reaches into the golvebox and gets blown away... Does it matter that only his registration was in there? No, they failed to comply.
If the Israelis don't inspect vessels such as this, they will get jihadist shipments showing up sooner rather than later. You just can't be that naive to think that everything going in to gaza is just childrens toys. These are people which strap dynamite to their children and send them into schools.
There are certainly groups that do this. Hamas among them. But those groups weren't on the boats.
Again, when you fail to comply with a cargo search, you are basically trying to get a reaction. Like that idiot priest who got tasered going through that border checkpoint. Was he a terrorist? No. But he said f-u to the cops, and they took his ass to the floor....
Said search being conducted in national waters, fine. In international space taking the action is the same as waltzing into a private residence in their home country and capping them there. Weak argument to the point of utter senselessness.
A new variation on the delusional notion"international waters", itself just under "international law", in the side splitting retardia standing for arguments on these threads. There is no such thing as "international space".
How do you know Hamas was not on the boats? It seems representatives of every professional protest group out there was on one of those boats.
So, Al-Qaeda in nowhere joins Greenpeace?
Think about your comment for a moment. Then ask yourself, am I trying to be cute?
I keep forgetting, those guys with chains, pipes and other assorted assault tools (shown "warming up" prior to the Israelis showing up) were all pacifists with no intentions of starting anything...
And chairs, don't forget the chairs! Weapons of mass destruction, chairs. Say, you wouldn't be a chair possessing terrorist would you? Time for a visit to our "special" resort at Bagram.
Someone swings a steel chair at me in Texas and I then draw and shoot them for it, that's legitimate self defense. Attacking a special forces soldier in the dark with said object alongside a dozen other dudes swinging knives and steel pipes will get the same result with even less legal followup or papering over, obviously. .....Unless the crazed attackers are called "peace activists" and the soldier doing his job, initially using paintball guns only, is an IDF soldier intent only on stopping a shipfull of nutters intent on forcing open a blockade against terrorists launching rockets into Israel... apparently.
They did not know. You do not know. That is why they were carrying out a LEGAL inspection of cargo. Some Hamas supporters were not able to restrain their murderous instincts at the sight of a Jew and were restrained.
The difference is that leftists will compromise any and all of their beliefs as long as the offending party is an enemy of the United States.
And that rightists will mindlessly suck any dick that Sarah Palin tells them to.
Brett, perhaps a rightist uses polite words. Chet, clearly a leftist does not. Hmm.
I do not suck anything, even if Sarah asked me too.
You, sir, seem to be a sucker.
Oh, oh, an ad-hominem attack! My very first one here at ZH! Likely Chet was one of the 20 who junked my first comment.
And a Teacupper will bounce in any fashion to capture something to chew on.
I'm not sure why you would think states committing aggression against individuals somehow invalidates criticism of a state committing aggression against individuals. Or do you not realize that's what you just implied?
I think you statists should stick to the "anti-semite" argument.
IK, indeed. + 100
Try being a South Korean sailor in international waters.
Where's the outrage against North Korea?
Outrage against North Korea for what reason?
There wasn't any aggression by NK recently - oh, you're talking about that - guess what, evidences and a South Korean investigator proved that there was no attack.
Want another Maine, Lusitania or Tonkin, etc. set up, go ahead: it will more likely be you, rather than me, the most affected.
IK
They are challenging the legitimacy of the blockade on a territory that is not governed by them. A very different argument. If you look at the items that Israel is preventing from entering (non-weapons related) then you will understand why the flotilla didn't want to subject the aid to customs.
deleted
Try sending a flotilla to Guantanamo Bay to protest the continued detention of people the US government KNOWS TO BE INNOCENT.
What's your point? That States protect their territorial waters? Point is, that the event took place OUTSIDE of the territorial waters of 'Israel'.
Megaphone is really having to scrape the bottom of the hasbara barrel on this one. The quality of the justifications is really abysmal.
Cheerio
GT
I've remarked elsewhere on the Jews' lapses into puerile babbling whenever they dispute Israel's atrocities; this lapse is very similar to that of abused women whenever they either relate the abuse or are afflicted with sensations of the abuse. Expect no human rational disputation from Jews on Israel's recent atrocity.
Is Guantanamo Bay still operating as a prison? That just cannot be true. Tell me that you do not really believe that.
The honest Muslim who won the last US election promised to close it within 12 months of taking office? Are you telling me that BHO (pbuh) is a Muslim who would lie to get elected? There cannot still be US forces in Iraq as BHO (pbuh) vowed to withdraw them in 18 months. But I'm sure that the US now is in control of Pakistan since BHO (pbuh) advocated attacking and controlling that country to capture Osama bin Laden. He probably did not follow through as that is a Muslim country as is OBL.
WOW, I was expecting a statement more like "well he shouldn't have been there" or "serves him right for pointing a felafel at us uhmmm the Israelis" or "the act of covering his face with his hands was a clear gesture of hostility". FUCK that man.
Since I do prefer the constructive criticism rather than just to bitch, point finger and complain, I ve got an idea.
Why don't you create a daily a geo-pilitical summary that will cover all events, all sides similar to whatever "project m" had done a while ago? And better, why don't you propose a potential solution and describe possible motives of why all sides involved act/talk the way they do.
I wonder whatever happened to Mr. Mayhem...
Bored of the topic and the vitriol.
Buh-bye very shortly.
See ya later aligator - after awhile crockadile!
And perhaps we'll see you after mommy changes your stinky diapers and gives you a
spelling lesson. Punk
How bout coming by and taking a big sniff of my stinky diapers and rub the diaper all over your face.
I know you want it.
Turd licker!
(By the way, you're right about the misspellings, seems the spell checker failed to catch my goofs.)
What is up with the spelling police around here? I am a shitty typist - If i were to go back and proof everything my posts would be out of sync. Also, I admit to having poor punctuattion" So let's find another way to show someone up becides pointing out a little spelling/grammatical error.
From, now on ponting out another's typo is an automatic swing...and miss.