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US Citizen Killed During Gaza Flotilla Raid
It is one thing for a country to attack a boat somewhere out of sight (and soon out of mind, as the collective American memory fades after 24 hours, whether it is geopolitical, or 1,000 point Dow crashes) in which the people killed are foreigners: the administration can talk up its teleprompter game which achieves nothing, but gives the impression of action (very much the same as what is happening in the Gulf), until people, sick of the spectacle, desire to move on. However, when a US citizen has been shot and killed during an armed incident in international waters, well, then talking ain't gonna cut it. It appears this is precisely what happened during the Gaza flotilla raid: "The U.S. confirmed that an American citizen, identified as 19-year-old FurkanDogan, was killed by multiple gunshots during the Israeli raid on a flotilla carrying activists attempting to run a blockade of the Gaza Strip ." To quote Marcus from Bad Boys: "Shit just got real."
From Bloomberg:
The Mavi Marmara was carrying 581 passengers, about 300 of them Turkish and the remainder from about 30 other countries including Greece, the U.K. and Algeria, Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said on May 31. Arinc accused Israel of “piracy” for boarding the vessels in international waters.
Dogan was born in Troy, New York, according to State Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley. The Dogan family now has his body, which is en route to their hometown in Turkey for burial, Crowley said.
A second American was injured on the ships and a third in a subsequent protest, according to Clinton. The U.S. is looking into what had happened to the Americans involved, she said.
“Protecting the welfare of American citizens is a fundamental responsibility of our government and one that we take very seriously,” Clinton said. “We are in constant contact with the Israeli government attempting to obtain more information.”
Clinton said this week that the situation in the Gaza Strip is “unsustainable and unacceptable” and that “ultimately the solution to this must be found in an agreement on a two-state solution negotiated” between Israel and the Palestinians.
The flotilla raid and the uproar surrounding it haven’t affected talks between Palestinians and Israelis, Crowley said. U.S. Middle East envoy George Mitchell, speaking in Bethlehem, said there should be a renewed focus on the talks.
From a purely diplomatic perspective, the continued attempts by the Obama administration to play down international outrage, when none other than an American citizen has been killed, will look very suspect to the international community, and risks the spillover and redirection of global anger, currently aimed at Israel, straight at the US.
In other news, AP provides advance notice of a Larry King interview with President Obama on this topic:
President Barack Obama is calling the deadly Israeli raid on an aid flotilla bound for the Gaza Strip "tragic" and says the loss of life that resulted was unnecessary. Obama stopped short of condemning the actions of Israeli forces, saying that the U.S. wants to wait for an investigation.
Obama says he believes Israel should agree to such an investigation because the incident isn't good for their long-term security."
Obama spoke in an interview with CNN's Larry King airing Thursday night.
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America, failed State...IsisRaEl, failed State....Facsist and failed states. Come on people....COME ON PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They are WAR MONGERS, and nothing else! Peace begets peace. You are what you eat, etc, etc....
"I want you to hit me as hard as you can." "Why?" "How much can you know about yourself if you've never been in a fight?"
"Come on, hit me before I lose my nerve...."
If those guys were on a peace mission than Im Mother Teresa. People on a peace mission dont attack Israeli commandoes the second they land on the ship. Those guys were trained fighters (probably al qaida) and were brought to provoke an incident.
I wonder how much you actually know about the conflict going on there between the Israelis and the Palestinians of Gaza as well as of the West Bank? Sounds like you've bought the Israeli public relations job hook, line, and sinker without even giving a thought to the real state of affairs that exists between the two peoples.
Here is what I do know about what is going on:
If the Israeles lay down their arms, in two weeks there will be not one Jew alive in Israel.
If the Palestinians lay down their arms, in two weeks there will be peace.
How many rocket launchers have you bought for the Pals so that they can have peace?
I would bet money on that prediction...coming true.
+ 100 from a beaten up poster here at ZH.
From my viewpoint, if the Palestinians wanted peace, it could be achieved. And quickly.
They do not want peace because they are filled with HATE.
But have you given the slightest thought to why they are filled with hate Darth DoChen?
Thought not... Israel = good Palestinians = terrorists! :)
If the Israeles lay down their arms, in two weeks there will be not one Jew alive in Israel
But until they do you cannot claim this to be a truth but only an assumption. Disarmament is not as crazy as it sounds as it can be achieved in only two ways...voluntarily or involuntary. We already know which you have chosen.
Wow, talk about about Moral Hazard.
One mans "terrorist" is anothers "freedom fighter". The good ol USA and Isreal are no strangers to terrorist tactics themselves, but they get to be freedom fighters because might makes right.
One day the US is selling their good buddy Saddam some nice wmds in the form of chemical weapons to kill Iranians, why he is a freedom fighter; another day Iraq is invaded on a wmd excuse and Saddam is hanged a a reviled terrorist.
One day the Israelis form secret terrorist organizations and plant bombs, assinate political opponents in the name of freedom fighting and another day they get all uppity and decry terrorism as uncivilized even as they owe much of their current civilization to terrorist acts themselves.
Its all relative. Hypocrisy kinda dilutes the usual arguments,imo. Who can claim any moral high ground upon which to judge every man woman and child of a country as subhuman and subject to summary execution?
Its tough being an Imperium, but sometimes you have to use your friends to kill your enemies. Other times you have to kill your friends when they get in the way. It's tough being a sociopathic hyper-power, but the dirty work has got to be done somehow, someway.
You don't remain king of the hill by letting some other asshole knock you down.
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
Just one JUNK? I'm so disappointed, :o(
I guess I just haven't stepped on enough toes yet.
Yo Intel! Both the Original Poster and me got junked off with 20!
Does that, like, make me a Johnny Bravo of the Peace Flotilla threads?
I don't know why people JUNK other people.
To me it just shows you have the disablility to accept that other people have opinions that differ from yours.
But, junk on, junk off, the clapper.
Nonsense, the U.S. never sold WMDs to Saddam. Please provide proof of this assertion.
Iran Iraq war
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
"Chemical weapons precursors" and "dual use equipment for Iraq's nuclear progarm"
Israel was also throwing quite a few toys at Iran and the Reagan administration didn't bother themselves with nuclear non-proliferation.
what a difference a decade makes. What a bunch of hypocrites and whores
I applaud zerohedge covering this issue. What I love about this site is that it does cover macro and micro economics. And this event, regardless of where you stand politically, is a major international event which may have far reaching consequences in the geopolitical (and therefore economic) sphere.
It's just the latest chapter in an endless loop.
As I pointed out in one of first threads started on this topic, it's been debated to death on every political site on the web and nothing has been accomplished, and I offered a sample of how it would go down, here. In case you missed it:
The Pro-Palestine side (mainly unemployable leftists) will start off by telling us that Israel is an illegal state that really belongs to the Palestinians. They'll go on to say that Zionists control the United States Government as well as the entire solar system and have been responsible for every event in history: 9/11, Lincoln Assination, Dinosaur extinction etc.
Eventually a Holocaust denier will arrive on the scene and claim that Auschwitz was really a Weight-loss center for fat Jews.
At some point, the Israel Internet Defense Force (IIDF) will show up to protect the promised land from this on-line attack.
We'll be treated to the old standards, "A lone Democracy in a sea of dictatorships," and "surrounded by hostile neighbors." Of course, the holocaust will be invoked in the form of the classic "He who forgets history is doomed to repeat it."
This will go back and forth ad absurdum until both sides pass out from exhaustion or smash their keyboards to pieces.
Or, one side runs out of bullets, not likely, or run out of people to kill.
This is a blood feud that stretches back to biblical times. This is a continuation of the Cain and Able parable. The bible claims the Arabs and the Jews are the progeney of Abraham, both the Islamic and the Hebrew religions point to Abraham as a common ancestor. (If I'm wrong on this point please correct me)
These people have been at each other's throats since the beginning of time. I'm no biblical historian, but this is not only a blood fued, but a political fued as well as a religious one and has been going on for thousands of years.
When you've been fighting your neighbor for a couple thousand years its rather difficult to drop grievances, shake hands, and work together on making the world a better place to live for yourself and your children.
Wildman [somewhat re-phrased here]: I could break you, mate, in two pieces over my knees. You know it, I know it. I could buy you six times over, and not bat an eyelash But I happen to like the Palestinians, and I want to seem the prosper on THEIR land.
FYI.
Good to hear Cheeks - its the fair thing. It's better for business. I think everyone should be doing business. We've got shit to get done in this world. Sit in's in the American South and this shit in the middle east get in the way of progress.
They could have a chance if they would quit killing each other, quit screwing goats, go to work instead of destroying property, focus upon life instead of death, and train for productivity instead of bombing. Pass that along as a helpful suggestions to your friends. Maybe they can get the message from you before the whole world cuts off their sugar tit subsidies.
Still waiting for some historical references i.e. books?
Brett - There's a lot more going on than these two "poles". There's work to be done. It's worthy of occasional airing because this place is GOING TO CHANGE. If not, American security will suffer. That affects my business.
Why does the US side with Israel anyway - historical background from?
WHY?!
hahahaha! Good joke!
WHY?!
hahahaha! Good joke!
Ask Rahm, ask Summers, ask Geithner, ask etc. Then you have your answer. Yes, ask AIPAC and they'll tell you.
Good question. I know that the US supports Israel militarily and financially but I don't know why there is such a strong relationship there.
Just investigate the U.S.S. Liberty. It is one of the most atrocious internal crimes ever commited by the higher ups.
The United States wanted to become involved in the Arab-Israeli war and an attack was needed for this to occur so we the U.S. and Israel attempted to sink the ship which was clearly marked as a U.S. vessel for 3 hours. For the 3 hours they attempted to sink the ship with napalm, torpedoes, lifeboat survivors were being strafed by Israeli guns.
LBJ himself told an Admiral to turn defensive planes back and to allow the ship to sink and even an Israeli pilot numerous times refused to attack telling the Israeli command that this is undoubtedly an American ship. Only when a Russian recon ship appeared did the attack stop so let me ask this...
Why not attack the Russian ship? They were obviously able to identify that it was Russian within 15 minutes however for 3 hours they attacked an American ship?
Because the U.S.S.R. was an instant witness and if you think Israel would dare make the mistake of attacking a Russian vessel then think again..yet they attacked the largest superpower the world has ever seen?
The plan was to sink the ship in minutes and blame it on Egypt and boom U.S. intervention in the war. One of the most disgraceful events I have ever heard of. Most disgraceful is that it was likely the idea of the United States. From that moment we have to defend Israel because at any moment they can turn around and throw that back at our face.
For the record I am not am not much of conspiracy theorist and believe we had no involvement in 9/11 however I have no doubt about this event or the JFK assassination.
> JMC #393002
Thank you, Sir, for the post...
Be safe..
Great post. The captain received a Medal of Honor - the brave crew kept the ship from sinking and were just able to get to port. Amazing that they survived.
A lot has to do with the guilt felt after WWII and Americas refusal to do anything to help the Jews before Hitler came to power and the concentration camps in Nazi Germany. Would take to long to elaborate on the Holocaust. (Just look at the guilt trips we're supposed to experience about the whole American Indian, Black slaves in the south, and oppression of Hispanics thing, just to name a few, white people are very oppressive).
Another big portion is the Judeo-Christian association. Since Jesus Christ was a Jew and Christianity was the creation of Christ' work, then you see the association.
Also, the belief by fundamentalist Christians that the return of the Messiah and coming of the 1000 years of Christ' reign has to do with the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem.
Also if you visit the multitude of bible colleges across the US that offer degrees in theology and religion you would see that there is a requirement to learn the Hebrew language.
It would take thousands of books and man hours. But, the United States was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. And the bible is based upon the Hebrew bible. A lot of deep rooted connections.
But, it seems ironic that the Christians blamed the Jews for Christs death even though it was God's plan.
At the end of WWII, the United Nations (then, only the UK, USA, France, and USSR) was faced with a disaster of displaced persons, many of whom no longer had citizenship in the country of their birth. Most of these were Jews. Given the public outcry, albeit few dollars, to resolve the situation, as well as the older Zionist imperative and more modern failure of Empire on the part of the UK, Palestine became the bouc emissaire now known as Israel. It should be stated that this was not a favored decision by all sides, in particular the Zionists already in Israel, never mind the Palestinians. As one may recall, a war resulted shortly thereafter (see the movie Exodus). This is in reply to Beer Goggles.
You can go back to the Balfour Declaration of 1917. Clearly there were thoughts of a Jewish Homeland well before 1917 as it takes many years to get the politics right.
Attacking Israel right after it was created was not one of the Arabs smarter moments. That cleared the way for the events to take place today. Everyone needs to recognize Israel and it's right to exist. Taking the current blockade issue to the UN is defacto recognition of Israel by the Arab states. How can you see it any other way?
Once you accept Israel's right to exist, stop causing problems for them. Let them work things out with the Palestinians. The Palestinians need to elect responsible leadership who are not prepared to go to war with Israel. Declaring war on Israel justifies the blockade type actions that the hammerheads rail about.
My preface is that I have Jewish and Muslim friends and am completely objective. I am neither pro nor anti Palestinian or Jewish. If one of my loved ones was ever caught in the cross fire, to quote Shakespeare in Romeo & Juliet - "A plague on both your houses". Neither group is all good or all bad and there are evil people in both groups. The entire group should not be punished for the actions of the evil minorities in either group. I also believe in a two state solution. I don't think anybody that is Jewish, Arab, Persian or Muslim can objectively talk about this event due to bias - recuse yourselves.
Historically Israel has been an underdog, and people love to cheer on an under dog and a victim (holocaust). They are now a major power with world wide influence and a stockpile of nuclear weapons so they can no longer rely on prior sympathy to hold for actions they take in the 21st century. The whole world is watching this and it has alienated Israel's neighbors in Egypt and Turkey. I completely understand "Never Again" and agree with it; there is a real danger that a complex can be developed with a chip on the shoulder that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If we believe that everyone is out to get us, then the human mind can rationalize anything pre-emptive.
Everyone that disagrees can be labeled a terrorist and in a paranoid stupor, the abused becomes the abuser. Israel risks looking like a bully, and has killed individuals from multiple countries on the boat and will have lasting effects. The US citizen was shot 4 times in the head and once in the torso according to ABC news. If anybody says they don't feel any regret over this they have a low emotional quotient and are inhumane with perhaps a little Stockholme syndrome added for some effect (another possibility is that they are working with AIPAC, JDL, or SPLC). I also do not condone random predator drone strikes in foreign countries with collateral damage, and that program is under review.
Both groups are naturally biased towards their own group of people, similar to fund managers talking their book. In the US, according to Joe Klein (A Jewish author writing for the LA Times), Jewish people run Hollywood & the media so you might not get the most objective information by following the controlled media. See this link: http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/19/opinion/oe-stein19. By the same token I am not sure we can believe everything that Al Jazera puts out, and the muslim nations should work better together to create better objective news like a BBC.
According to the press in Israel, this is their biggest international PR disaster in decades. There are calls for the resignation of their Defense Minister. Contrast that with much of the press coverage in the United States where propaganda is being peddled. The reality is we do not have all the facts, and until there is a truly sincere objective inquiry and investigation into the event I hope for the lives of others that all the countries reduce their rhetoric (an eye for an eye and we all go blind). This could easily lead to WWIII and that would most definitely impact markets so this is extremely relevant to ZeroHedge.
Egypt has already suspended the blockade and opened its border with Gaza. Another ship is heading towards the blockade. Israel might want to take a softer position and show some concern for the injured and dead to hedge their bets on the investigation. The soldiers looked like they were in full riot gear with helmets and body armor, which would withstand blows. Disabling the rudder / propeller and towing it could have worked.
We do not know if the individuals on board even knew what was going on - was there an announcement from the captain? If I was an activist on a flotilla and at 4:30 in the morning helicopters stormed the boat, in the confusion if people next to me were shot first I would believe my life was at risk and perhaps try to attack the perpetrator to avoid being killed myself (this happens in athletic sports all the time, where the referee doesn't see the first instigation but catches the person defending/responding to an instigator). These could be terrorists trying to take over the boat and if people were being shot, protestors could naturally act to protect themselves. Some video suggests shots were fired at the boat before boarding, hopefully the investigation provides the facts.
So far, they have found wheel chairs, food, and stuffed animals on board paralleling the US going into Iraq for WMD. Call it what it is, a PR disaster. Show some class or risk the entire world turning against Israel. People will not believe the canned propaganda and could turn Israel's friends in the world against it. The US lost some standing and its moral high ground after the pre-emptive WMD/oil Iraq war.
Israel has a right to defend itself from real threats AND Gaza has a right to decent human rights. Might does not make right. Perhaps because of its paranoia, Israel has had a history of false flag actions including the USS Liberty, the Egyptian Lavon Affair, and the Mexican embassy averted fake terrorism. It is important to know that the US, Israel, and the UK have all been caught engaging in false flag events over the years. As citizens, it is important that our leaders do not conspire to try to take us to war since war is almost always economic and benefits a few elites to the detriment of the majority.
Let's hope cooler heads prevail, because an eye for an eye and we all go blind. Let's wait for the investigation. Should it show that Israel acted provocatively with excessive force in International waters it should apologize and suggest using it as a catalyst for a Palestinian state (because Obama will be pressuring them on that front). If the Palestinians do not accept Israel's right to exist (necessary pretext for forming their own state) they will remain in poverty and filled with hate. Whether the hate is warranted or not really doesn't matter, what should be the focus is quality of life.
I hope so too - thanks
+1
+ another
DoChen... you are one seriously conflicted dude! You have just agreed with someone who holds an (well informed) opinion contrary to your own... do I sense a change in your thinking or just a misinterpreted post?
good soap colonel.
"Have you ever considered any real freedoms? Freedoms from the opinion of others... even the opinions of yourself?"
> AN #392977
Hear hear..
Thank you..
If those guys were on a peace mission than Im Mother Teresa. People on a peace mission dont attack Israeli commandoes the second they land on the ship. Those guys were trained fighters (probably al qaida) and were brought to provoke an incident.
Jewish holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein, 85, was one of the "trained al qaida fighters" ??
Read:
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/A-Woman-With-No-Fear-95289439.html
http://www.etaiwannews.com/etn/news_content.php?id=1273450&lang=eng_news
http://www.hedyepstein.com/
"The 85-year-old said she had hoped to join other activists aboard another ship, the Rachel Corrie, that was to attempt to reach Gaza later."
Oh Snap!!!
Zina, you just shut down CaptainObservant like that woman who yelled "Heil Hitler" to the Jewish man at a health care rally last year because she was against the program and he for it... kinda looks bad, just like claiming that the boat was just trained, armed Al-Qaeda fighters lying in wait to attack a brigade of body-armored, fully-armed Israeli commandos.
Zina, give it a rest. Hedy is 85 years old and has seen more pain and suffering than anyone should have to bear. She simply wants it stopped. She wasn't an Al Qaida fighter but at the same time I expect she wants the state of Israel to exist.
Israel has a process for accepting and shipping aid to the Gaza Strip. The process works. Why not follow it?
If the political message is more important than physically getting aid to Gaza, then say so. If you think Hedy accepts all facets of that political position then say so. To portray her in any other light is demeaning.
Douh!
Unfucking believable... this is what you get when you abandon a child sitting in front of a TV...
What!? Sesame Street no good no more?
Would love to pull out my Ebonics translator, oh wait, just Googled it.
http://joel.net/ebonics/translator.asp
ZerOhead - Only you can set you free... :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xxgRUyzgs0
Hi there Miles... haven't heard that song in a while... how have you been?
..who later went on to write a story about a Israeli commando turned hair dresser...
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-06-02/un-human-rights-council-auth...
Israel rejects international investigation of Freedom Flotilla raid:http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2010/0603/Israel-rejects-inte...
Israel won't cooperate with the investigation decided by the United Nations. So, Israel have to be sanctioned. Sanctions on Iran? Only if Israel is sanctioned first...
Some excerpts from the Hamas Charter.
Just so you know the mind of the people your defending...
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews.
Defend them at your peril.
I will not.
Hamas wasn't on the boat.
Clearly you don't know (or care) what hamas is.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100602/ap_on_re_eu/eu_gaza_ships_terror_ties
I know what Hamas is, and I resist attempts to lump all Muslims into a single group and label them "terrorists".
It's sloppy thinking and more than a bit bigoted. Hamas wasn't on the boat.
Thank you for taking the time to read the article.
I did read it. What's your point?
Heh,Heh,Heh...
Thanks again...
PERFECTLY CORRECT
No, but they sure exist as the legitimate and internationaly recognized political faction in Gaza, what a co-ink-e-dink.
Personally, the Jews in Israel don't stand a chance demographically. They are not producing enough progeny to supply basic replacement of the population. Unless more diaspora emigrate to Israel to make up the difference the possibility of being out rabbit'ed looms large on the horizon.
Stupidity that leads to death in international space is indefensible, on both their parts. A state of war effectively now exists between Israel, the Palestinians & the US. I wonder when Israel will start blowing away international jets that might be caring an essential bit of correspondence?
Of course the only thing the government of the US will do is charge the American citizen with being in international waters. I wonder when the US government will issue travel restrictions for Americans traveling outside of the US as the government will refuse to protect or defend them?
Lot of hyperbole. A state of war is a legally defined term and war does not exist between US and Israel.
We do lots of things that may not be legal; arresting somalis in international waters, killing people in Pakistan with missiles, issuing death sentences on Americans hiding in Yemen. Are we at war with these countries?
They are acts of war under international law. Back to law that is and is not enforced due to personal preferences on the part of one party, another or all political leaders concerned.
If a murder is committed and the state charges the offender with involuntary manslaughter on a plea deal does that mean a murder was not committed?
Actually, yes, in legal terms it means manslaughter was committed.
A state of war has existed between the two koreas for 50 years. Then, recently, north korean attacked a south korean ship. Are they now doubly at war? Of course not.
doubly at war hahahahahahaha With respect to the situation in Korea, the war hasen't stopped and what is happening is a political effort to parse....
Unfortunately, Israel has not declared war against the Hamas leadership in Gaza settling to use the label "terrorism". State sponsored terrorism is, once again, an act of war. This is a loophole to the issue of a nations right to make war being hemed and hawed.
Besides I said involuntary manslaughter.
This is the definition of a miscarriage of justice. Not justice in and of itself. Big difference and if you cannot tell the difference then your lost.
You can't understand the definition of war and I'm lost. Right...anyway, if you think we are at war with pakistan and yemen and somalia you are the only one.
I'll let this timeless quote stand in my stead. The bold face type is my own emphasis to the quote.
Behind all of the rhetoric being hurled at us from abroad, we are bringing home one unassailable fact -- [terrorism is] a crime by any civilized standard, committed against innocent people, away from the scene of political conflict and should be dealt with as a crime...
[I]n our recognition of the nature of terrorism as a crime lies our best hope of dealing with it...
[L]et us use the tools we have. Let us invoke the cooperation we have the right to expect around the world, and with that cooperation let us shrink the dark and dank areas of sanctuary until these cowardly marauders are held to answer as criminals in an open and public trial for the crimes they have committed, and receive the punishment they so richly deserve.
- William Webster, Director
Federal Bureau of Investigation
October 15, 1985
Please note that nowhere is the concept of plea deals struck behind closed doors by unelected or elected officials contemplated. Rather, the thrust of his and my comment is that justice is determined and handed down in open court, before a judge and by twelve good citizens true.
An act of war is just that. What I am saying is that such acts of war have been committed, numerous times. Just because a government doesn't want to defend its citizens from such acts is a governing decision. However, that decision in no way detracts from the act of war that had been committed. In this I concede your attempt to refine the point to a state of war being a declarative action committed to by a nation state. My issue is that these decisions in no way detract from the fact that the act/s under question are indeed acts of war under international law.
As a 100% disabled war (strike that, police action) veteran and retiree from the Justice Department I fully appreciate the thrust of your point and my own. In this I wonder if you are employed by the State Department or if you are just one more academic that has never had to face the realities of the real world... Regardless, it is my most sincere wish that you, a loved one of yours or anyone else never have to face these realities of being an "accidental" or "deliberate" target or victim whose death or injury is them parsed by someone that really would rather not have to stand and defend against criminal acts and chooses not to regardless of their commitment to do so faithfully and without reservation. You sir appear to be a parser of oaths and would rather render the concept of commitment to the rule of law moot to the whims of weak knees and a lack of intestinal fortitude..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs6LfHXOSxU
I suppose you'll just keep on running with the pack....
+1000... Eloquent post Smiles!
yes, excellent post. And you are right about the manslaughter plea bargain
Islam is talkin' the talk; whilst Israel and the US are walkin' the walk. Keep pointing your finger at bellicose words while the rest of the world continues to point its collective finger at bellicose deeds.
Sticks and stones, my thinly veiled friend.
Thanks for this post straight from the source. Very helpful to recall the nature of the Israeli adversary.
Ever since 1948, after the U.N. partition of Palestine--a decision which was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs--resulting in the immediate Arab aggression to strangle the infant state in its crib, the Israelis have fought multiple existential wars. "Existential" meaning, you see, you lose, you die, your wife is raped and your children killed. The Jews have considerable historical experience with this phenomenon. The Arabs made no secret of their desire to drive the Israelis into the sea and return Palestine to their unequivocal control. This is still the goal of some, Hamas included.
The Israelis have fought these bitter, dangerous wars and won each one, some by desperately small margins. They established and and preserved their nation and now justifiably refuse to put themselves in a position where the likes of Hamas are able to import fighters and the weaponry to Gaza where it can be employed with impunity against their citizens.
Please remember that during the Clinton years Israel actively supported the development of a politically and economically independent state in Gaza until, unable to bear the prospect of a real negotiated peace, the intifada was launched by the moronic Yassir Arafat (whom everybody on this site seems to have forgotten, so much the better?) and who is, more that anyone, personally responsible for the terrible conditions in which Gazans now find themselves.
I am sorry, the innocents suffer in Gaza, surely, but if they do it is more the fault of their lamentable political "leadership" and the poisonous legacy of sixty-five years of mutual mistrust between the two sides than Israel's desire to gratuitously oppress them.
+ 200 Sam. The Palestinian leadership wants to run Jewish blood into the Med. Sea.
They get what they deserve, as do we all.
DoChen... DoChen... and there I was hoping for you... you can't keep harnessing that tribalistic hate forever... it'll kill ya!
Remember the teachings of the Buddha...
"He who throws hot coals at others burns himself as well" (Or something to that effect! :)
People seem to forget one basic fact here. By taking this action in international waters the State of Israel might have well just waltzed into an American's home and capped him there.
There is no excuse for doing this action in international waters, unless a state of war exists. I suggest that Israel has just declared war against the US, just as the Palestinians have previously and presently by placing Americans lives at risk every time they launch a rocket into Israel. For some reason many Americans still believe they can go anywhere in national or international space without issue. This premise has been proven false by both the Israeli & Palestinian people. In this both the Israelis and Palestinians are the same in their absolute disregard for international law, joining the US in that lack of respect for the rule of law.
What I want to know is when will the US start blowing away boat people from Haiti or potential Al-Qaeda sympathizing pirates masquerading as fisherman from Somalia?
Very good point. I never quite saw the issues in that light. I'll remember that when it comes time to vote in the various upcoming civic elections slated over the intermediate time period. These issues will be discussed in various voters forums and I am sure will sway those candidates campaigning for my vote.
I wish to edit my previous post to read the governments that supposedly represent the Israeli & Palestinian people.. Just as the actions by the US government do not conform to what many Americans would desire. My error and I apologize for it.
Don't vote. It's consent to be governed by criminals now.
Doesn't really matter which side you are on, the one result here is that the rest of the world will hate the US and Israel a tiny bit more from now on.
And if you want to know what happens when you make the whole world despise you, and then the money runs out, dig up a Roman, and ask him.
In a couple of weeks, this will blow over and people will move on to new reasons to hate. Let them get it out of their system. With all the other pressures and stresses in the world, I think this issue is cathartic to some. It has become the world's version of WWE.
A rare piece of wisdom on this thread.
ask yourself not what did the Romans do wrong; but instead, ask yourself what the did the Visigoths do right.
Sorry but this is all living in the past...like getting worked up about The Dodgers leaving Brooklyn. We are just not living in that America anymore.
Even if this slain U.S. citizen is proven to be the second coming of Alan Alda you're assuming that defending U.S. citizens and their best interests is something that motivates the current president. It isn't. Sorry but Teddy Roosevelt is not sitting in the oval office. Phoenix AZ is the #2 city in the world right now for kidnappings
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1
(one guess as to why) and when American citizens in that state try to do something about it, albeit imperfectly (because the Feds are laying down on the job) Obama does his best to socially shame and legally harass them.
When's the last time you heard Obama mention "American" or "U.S. citizen" in a positive context or at all?
Now, don't blame Obama for that either. I'm no cheerleader of the current administration, but, I'm pretty sure if Bush was still in office he would be trying to socially shame and legally harass them too. Let's not forget the fiasco of the Border Patrol agents Ramos and Compean.
And, I have to agree that the Feds are laying down on the job when it comes to enforcing our immigration laws. Two weeks ago the sheriff in our county pulled over to vehicles containing migrant workers without proper documents and held them for pick up by the Border Patrol. Well, the Border Patrol told them to let them go because they didn't have an agent that could stop by and pick them up. WTF!? What the Feds really meant was: let them go because we have no plans on stopping by to pick them up.
Brave New World, go silently into the night.
Bush was terrible about immigration too but he was mostly just being a fuck-wit about the larger implications of such (his) policies, thinking that it would all end up being a big net benefit via big business, "the American dream of home ownership" or because he just happened to be friendly with a bunch of decent Mexican-Americans and trusted his gut feeling.
Obama actually wants The United States of America to cease to exist in any meaningful way. That's the difference.
Don't get me wrong, if I wasn't one of the lucky few south of the border I'd do everything I could to land myself north of it. But it's just suicide for the US to let anyone and everyone into the tree house.
Surely Marla's got a funny take on this. Killer flying fish or something.
It's funny, right?
I still think it was a joke. If not.....well, need I say more?
Didn't say it wasn't meant as a joke. Just that it was a poor one....
Angry "funny" is a way of getting your message across - funny "angry" is just some snob wanking.
BUT...I was later told it was NOT a joke. It was dead serious! huh? yeah
Tyler thanks for the clear logic.
The United States is a superpower under the control of Israel.
Palestine is now a part of the alleged Holocaust, an extension of the continuous Jewish Holocaust revenge that is forever and ever--the Holocaust excuse to kill anybody and everybody.
The idea that an inbred culture has the right to protect itself whatever its crimes is a little like having the Mafia as a race: the end result is a ruling class of political criminals—a class that not only considers itself exceptional but clans together and looks down upon all others as less than human and, therefore, expendable.
Conservative talk radio, hosted by the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity, has become pro-Israel radio. It has its issues, such as the Obama welfare programs and high taxes and moral concerns, but its main issue is protection of Israel. These talk show hosts call for limited government until it comes to America’s wars to protect Israel; then there is no war machinery that’s too expensive. Did you hear the bloodlust yesterday? Everything else will be sacrificed for the support of the Likud Party, which in effect is the support of worldwide Zionism.
The Limbaughs are allowed to present a conservative anti-government viewpoint as long as they support Israel. Otherwise, the bankers who rule this once great land will clamp down on them. Remember many years back when Disney/ABC’s Michael Eisner threatened to buy up all Rush Limbaugh’s radio outlets if he didn’t change his political tune? Any talk show host who criticizes the Fed, the Goldmans, the IMF or Israel will no longer be the bankers’ choice as Republicans.
America is a very divided country now.
George Washington was concerned about U.S. foreign entanglements. I wonder what he’d say now about another nation coming into the U.S. to control whoever is elected to the U.S. Congress and the Presidency; in short, to control the country?
The ignorance of the masses has contributed to man’s downfall and misery. Wars are fought and men are killed, on false patriotism.
'The greater the truth the greater the libel'
israel is a tiny little strip of land surrounded by arab racists who want to kill all the jews. That's according to them, not me, by the way. they are not doing anything except defending themselves and trying to be left alone so they can go on being productive people.
you might also want to do a little research on the mufti of jerusalem and the nazi party. you will find that there were two muslim nazi ss units fighting with the germans and that it was the mufti who drew up the plans for auschwitz. his son was one of the founders of terror groups in palestine government today. the terror of wwii is still very much real for jewish people today, not just a memory
Pot, kettle; kettle, pot:
http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html
http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/zionist_collaboration_...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KKgNToLrYk
As for the Arabs - and the Turks - you should hold nothing but gratitude for them, for the shelter they offered you when you most needed it - just ask the Sephardi - re the Mizrahi, I don't recall of any hostile attitude towards them, not up until the British-Zionist tugs-of-war and fuck-ups re Palestine brought them to the edge.
i am sure the armenians and the sudanese have nothing but gratitude tothem, too.
Really,
As much as the black jews towards the AshkeNazi?
Shot? You mean shot FOUR TIMES IN THE HEAD.
Glad ZH is normalizing after that bizarre experiment in searching for "cause" in livestock.
One last comment (I think I need to play Warcraft now - at least there you are rewarded for making alliances!) But this kid was shot four times in the head. This wasn't a melee or a scuffle or United Manchester game:
http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0603/citizen-killed-flotilla-reportedly-shot-times-head/
He was a 19 year old with ideals and a sense that he could make this world a little better. My thoughts are with his family.
People accused ZH of being "Anti-American". I said, nah..... you don't understand what "American" means if you think dissent and criticism is anti-American.
BUT...then came the lathering, fulsome, and kneejerk protectionism of Israel (from many readers and perhaps a contributor), and I thought WAIT A FUCKING SECOND.
I'll tell some of you people (and you know who you are) this..... It puts your all-the-time criticism of the United States and its institutions in a whole new light. A totally different light.
Keep that in mind.
Do tell...
Doesn't really matter which side you are on, the one result here is that the rest of the world will hate the US and Israel a tiny bit more from now on.
That's like saying I'd like to top up my pint with a few more ml of liquid.
on Thu, 06/03/2010 - 16:51
#393066
People seem to forget one basic fact here. By taking this action in international waters the State of Israel might have well just waltzed into an American's home and capped him there.
There is no excuse for doing this action in international waters, unless a state of war exists.
Neither Turkey nor Israel are ratifying parties of the Law of the Sea Convention.
Neither is the U.S., as far as I can ascertain presently.
It also appears that Israel may have been within international norms in boarding the ship as all states have an obligation under Articles 109 and 110 of the treaty to stop unauthorized broadcasts (those intended for the general public, but not distress calls), including in international waters. The so-called "Freedom Flotilla" was broadcasting its voyage live.
He said, She said.
Besides, shouldn't people be more upset about the fact that the CIA is allowed to assassinate American citizens abroad?
The trick is, that with the abrogation of the constitution through administrative convenience "citizens" only have privileges, not rights.
Get over it.
NEVER will I pusstify the rule of law ! If you choose to that is your choice, but you have no power to make it mine. Playing the game of comparative evil is a suckers play. Fool. Next time try actually responding to the post rather than doing with your posts what you do with your head. Namely bury it.
ha!
Sorry but shot 4 times in the head? Sorry not a skirmish:
http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0603/citizen-killed-flotilla-reportedly-shot-times-head/
Furkan sounds more like a 911 terrorist than a Little Leaguer. There is no way the Evening News drums up anger for anything called Furkin between PG commercials. This goes nowhere.
Time for Steven Speilberg to roll out another noble Jew WWII film to drum up sympathy.
Possibly the take home message from *all* of this - Marla's execrable "Beavis and Butthead" moment - and the staunch-fest that followed, is that the US is not going to be a player in this conflict - really.
Matthew Parris - a respected press commentator here in the UK (a left-winger by US criteria, I guess) - announced he was "tired of this foreign war" tonight - he used to be made angry by one side or the other - but now he just feels it will go on for 60 or another 6,000 years.
Only the US can stop this. Maybe as carpet-raising ZH-ers we should begin to understand why the US *doesn't* exert its (no doubt decisive) influence in this matter. Pandering to Israel clearly serves a few "Lebensraum" religious nutcases and a military-run government - pandering to Hamas makes Iran and Syria look like some sort of moral guardians - when they are the utter opposite for their own people and frankly anybody else.
Qui bono? It must be the US. Otherwise it would be over.
The US gives financial aid to Egypt, which oppresses a coptic christian minority. It supports a corrupt monarchy which violently oppresses religious minorities in Saudi Arabia. We have our fingers in a lot of pies, but I rarely hear much complaining about 'the egyptian lobby' or the Saudis. There is an element of racism in the Israel bashing.
I agree that there are countless acts of political hypocrisy throughout the world so is it possible that this support you speak of could also be construed as indirect Israeli support negotiated through the Israeli governments direct lobbying of US politicians? After all politics is a dirty business.
Better to say that you are myopic and partially deaf.
There is definitively an element of discrimination in your assesment of the situation. You think in some cases that little is already too much and much is not enough in other cases.
It must be or it's over. And the country that put four bullets in the head has nukes.
Time to roll out some CHANGE
F*ck him. Israel should have sunk the ship.
on Thu, 06/03/2010 - 17:04
#393127
One last comment (I think I need to play Warcraft now - at least there you are rewarded for making alliances!) But this kid was shot four times in the head
You must be new to this Mid-East game to assume he was shot by Israelis. The link you post quotes his friends as lauding him as a martyr. Islamic martyrdom has many pathways.
Something tells me you are not new to the Mid-East Game either.
LOL "... not new to this Mid-East Game"! What I am is a zerohedge fan, geeky, working in tech, interested in the market, smart and Canadian (probably my biggest sin in your eyes - very happy to have universal healthcare after years in the states with HMOs). I've always seen myself as a double agent though if you can point me in the right direction ;)
But above all I'm pragmatic!!! And being pragmatic the current situation with Palestine is not working.
And yes I stand by the post above - people taking a stand for something they believe in is admirable - why does that scare you so much?
Looks like the Neocons are back out of hiding. What a bunch of slime balls. I"d rather see Obama and his Commies have another 4 years than see you morons back in power. Our only hope is with the Tea Party movement. Ah, who am I kidding. It's already been hijacked.
The Republican Party is government. The Democrat Party is government. Each just wants to get into office so it can be the government. Samuel Adams was opposed to the government. He didn’t want some government party power to come in; he wanted the people to do the governing.
And that’s what the real feeling of the Tea Party has been. It’s a mistake, IMO, to assign a personality to it, such as Sarah Palin's. Palin is paid a tremendous amount of money to speak, and she doesn’t say anything but to criticize Obama. Some Tea Party members, who are new, love it, but they don’t realize that she is a captive of Israel and that she will sell them down the river in the end. Instead of the limited government that they want, they’ll have the biggest government they’ve every seen--tanks, bombs, carrier groups, missiles and most importantly of all, American young men and women-- because Israel’s wars will never cease.
I don’t think the Tea Party’s been hijacked, though many, including the Republican Party, are trying to do so. Some, as I said, have been confused as to who Sarah Palin is, and the ambitions and duplicity of the Republicans who want the votes but not the ideas, is obvious. But in the end, a movement the likes of the Tea Party will succeed. As for Palin, she can qualify as an entertainer but certainly not as a responsible leader, a fact that Tea Party activists—both former Democrats and Republicans--will soon discover.
Qui bono? It must be the US. Otherwise it would be over.
Think ZHers - please. This looks like a site-splitting issue if any of the vehemence is to be trusted (and I feel that it is).
Who is playing you all for dummies?
Thanks for inciting the lynch mob once again. Which trading strategy did this relate to?
The Wall Street Journal’s leading headline for today’s front page was: Israel’s Isolation Deepens Over Raid of Gaza-Bound Flotilla. And you know what? That is an economic statement. There’s nothing more appropo to the markets and to American lives and taxpayer monies, IMO, than the deepening crisis in the Middle East.
There are no real Americans named "Furkan Dogan".
This was just some guy who happened to be living in the United States, and if enough people felt like I do there would be none of his type here.
Now, now, what happend to sensitivity and inclusion and diversity and multi-culturalism and the great melting pot.
Now give me a great big bear hug and let's all sit down and sing kumbaya, buy the world a Coke and sing in harmony.
"Now, now, what happend to sensitivity and inclusion and diversity and multi-culturalism and the great melting pot.
Now give me a great big bear hug and let's all sit down and sing kumbaya, buy the world a Coke and sing in harmony."
Ok, I could swear I was listening to a buddy of mine with that last statement. Does your first name start with an R?
on Thu, 06/03/2010 - 17:37
#393236
Think ZHers - please. This looks like a site-splitting issue if any of the vehemence is to be trusted (and I feel that it is).
Who is playing you all for dummies?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
It is sometimes difficult to delineate passionate from disspassionate comment on the internet....also sarcasm, irony and simple factology.
It is best to err on the side of reading rationality unless proven otherwise.
+10000
This is one very sad thread. Irony and hypocrisy at every turn.
Wasn't that a song from way back, ....no....no....it was Ebony and Ivory, that's right.
Welcome to the human race where Irony and Hypocrisy reigns at every turn.
Indeed - all this violence benefits another - happening as it does under the media's gaze.
I have a slant on this where I feel one side is being badly treated by another, but I've never said (here) what that opinion is.
1. It's not relevant to the site.
2. Everyone gets in their trenches about this. Which is the entire problem.
But can we focus on the studied indifference that allows this hatred and slaughter to continue?
Sorry to harp on - but both parties have some well rehearsed arguments. The US *can* sort this out. But it never does.
Why??
I'll tell you why. Because you're not expressing your opinion that the U.S. is supporting a police state less popular than South Africa in the 80s. If you expressed it, we might get somothat change we waz promised. Obama was a second class citizen part of his life. He gets it (and the Israelis are scared of that) but he knows not how far he can go. Israelis? Gimme a break. They need some tough love like that kid didn't need four bullets in the head. The sooner they get it while they're in this throw of mutual bloodlust and further detrimental condo conquering, the better-off their kids will be. Fuck the ones living now, their condos and local politics, they're too deep in the shit to distinguish friend from anti-semite. All their kids will thank us and that's not such a bad thing to TRY to accomplish while we're making some cash and storing our gold.
Wow this topic brings out both the zionists and the jew haters by the dozens.
I think I am sticking with the zionists the rest of the middle east has a religion that wants to kill me as part of its "peaceful ideology" crap.
Say Furkan fast a few times or after a few beers.
They won't kill you as long as you either convert to Islam or are willing to live under dhimminitude.
Thanks for reminding me what gets in the way of progress. Have a fifth beer and pass out
@IsraelGlobalPR
"Israel apologises for the death of a US citizen aboard the flotilla, however we must state that the individual was not white"
That's racist dude.
Well, after reading the comments on this website over just this one issue we can see why the Israelis and the Palestinians are at each others throats.
People are easily inflammed by rhetoric and take sides and are willing to go at each others throats with malice and vehemence aforethought just because one's opinion or perspective differs from yours. And, now we know why wars are fought over things as silly as points of view and opinions.
Tyler needs to create an online video game where we can all take sides, pick up weapons, and shoot the shit out of each other until either all ammo is expended or all video game lives are extinguished. Of course all neutrals will be shot just for the hell of it.
What are you... 12 years old?
maybe, someone who hasn't made his mind up.
Yourself?
No, actually six, but thanks for giving me propers of an older age.
MinnesotaNice, how's those Somali criminals working out in the Twin Cities?
Actually I figured 'six' for the number of teeth you have... sorry must have got things a little transposed. And the Somali criminals are working out for us the same as the white criminals, the Hispanic criminals, the black criminals, etc... Because in Minnesota a criminal is just a criminal.
But clearly where you come from a criminal is ranked by his/her skin color... BTW I think I have heard of a few organizations who also rank people by their skin color... perhaps you would be more comfortable on one of those websites where the words don't have as many letters and the thoughts are less complicated.
They won't have him on Stormfront.com because he hates Germans too!
(At least he's consistant! :)
He is consistent... has he dislosed what nationalities and races that he actually likes?
I noticed he was promoting 'Ebonics translators' in an earlier comment, so blacks are out... Muslims are clearly out from the 'sink' comment... Somali's are out from the 'criminal' comment... Hispanics are out from an earlier 'immigration' comment... I seriously doubt he holds women in high regard (just a wild guess)... so... I think we are down to white conservative men who have no more than a 4th grade education as his peer group.
Do you mean... George W. Bush?
LOL :-)
That was good. LOL
lol - thanks for a little humour!
Ouch, you got me there. Sorry bout getting back with the snarky remarks but I had to go back a page or two to answer some other snarky remarks.
4th grade education indeed! I thought you could only aspire to a 3rd grade education in the Public School system.
Conservative? Not likely, just an Aryan Skinhead Redneck Racist that wants to see all the races just shrivel up and die. Including the Whites.
I'm like the Princeton professor that believes that humans are a virus on the surface of the earth and should be eliminated. No, I'm just kidding.
In fact I think there are too many whites in the state of Minnesota and we should move as many Somali's to the Twin Cities so that Islam can take over like it has in Dearbornistan. That's Michigan for all of you in Rio Linda.
So, how is the murder rate in Minneapolis since the Somolis moved in. I hear walking around the downtown areas can get you robbed and killed by roving gangs of Somalis?
The Twin Cities used to be a great place to live until the gangbangers moved in from Chicago and LA.
Personally I liked living in Eagan when I was up there working a contract, and loved the summers. I remember the winter where I walked into work which was about 500 feet and my ears nearly froze off. I really loved the lakes, the corn fields, and they really had a lot of hot looking scandinavian women.
I really liked Minnesota immensely.
Seems like you are just full-up tonight with snarky remarks that require a response... what do you figure the problem is?
BTW, I am more than happy to welcome as many Somali's into Minnesota as it takes to keep you out of my state :-)
And if you have heard that there are roaming bands of Somali's in Minneapolis that rob and kill people (funny I didn't see any recently)... let me suggest that you be the first one to check it out for yourself!
Oh... and give me a heads up when you will be here, so just in case you don't run across any "roaming Somali's robbing and killing people" then I can make the transplanted Chicago and LA gangbangers aware of your arrival... I'm sure you all will have many interesting things to discuss (just feel free to share all of your comments from tonight as an icebreaker :-)
Of course all neutrals will be shot just for the hell of it.
Chop 'em if they stand still, shoot 'em if they run.
Now you be talkin'. Neutrals ARE the problem.
Not really (IMO) - this site is a bastion of human beings who don't play to the press, or see the world the way they are told to see it.
Me... I don't know about the 60 year old Arab-Israeli conflict. I hate it when people are killed - at home in Gaza - on a bus in Haifa - on a boat in the Med. I hate it because it's absolutely, demonstrably pointless.
Here in the UK I honestly believe it took a US intervention in Northern Ireland to break what had once been a civil war and slowly turned into a social-wide vendetta. My family are from Ireland - I grew up in England - I see both ends. Without a higher "steer" this just grinds on - and on - and on. Eventually - whoever you are - it ends up on your own dooorstep.
Obama is looking weak on this - another place man. A solution with borders has to be tried - with the UN man enough to be on the borders and coming down like a million tonnes of bricks on any hostiles. At the same time there are 1.5m million people in Gaza and a handful of balaclavad nutcases. These are human beings who deserve every chance in life. Education, marriage, children - without the thought of white phosphorus and "Top Kill" collateral damage will be ignored my the world. And food to eat.
This is NOT beyond the US. Obama is probably the best chance we have or will have of this being put right. He's got to come up with something stern to both sides soon - something that makes things happen. Or he's just another (endless) place-man :(
Well said... but unfortunately humanitarianism is considered a crime in this debate. You'll probably be labelled as soft or told to harden up & get over it...or to just pick a side as all neutrals shall be chopped down. I, like you believe the voice of reason is the act of humanitarianism but then again what's that mean? Continue on......junk at sensitivity as required.
Thanks man - but this needs to have some sway in the US - this (new) idea of top kill.
The people in both these territories are angry to killing point (as per). Obama's response is some vague drivel (as per). I wish I knew why - but there must be a "why".