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US Mint Out Of Not Only Silver But Gold American Eagles As Well

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Update: After following up with the Mint, any shipments and deliveries of American Eagle 2010 edition both gold and silver are TBD and the mint has no idea on when these will be received if at all this year. A small shipment of American Buffalo gold coins will go on sale on June 3 at noon. The mint expects these to sell out promptly.

Earlier we reported that the US Mint has run out of American Eagle silver coins. It turns out the Mint is also out of gold American Eagles. Here is the US Mint page linking to various American Eagle subcategories.

And here is the specific "availability" of:

1. American Eagle Gold Proof Coins:

Production of United States Mint American Eagle Gold Proof and Uncirculated Coins has been temporarily suspended because of unprecedented demand for American Eagle Gold Bullion Coins. Currently, all available 22-karat gold blanks are being allocated to the American Eagle Gold Bullion Coin Program, as the United States Mint is required by Public Law 99-185 to produce these coins “in quantities sufficient to meet public demand . . . .”

The United States Mint will resume the American Eagle Gold Proof and Uncirculated Coin Programs once sufficient inventories of gold bullion blanks can be acquired to meet market demand for all three American Eagle Gold Coin products. Additionally, as a result of the recent numismatic product portfolio analysis, fractional sizes of American Eagle Gold Uncirculated Coins will no longer be produced.

Update: Due to the continued, sustained demand for American Eagle Gold Bullion Coins, 2009-dated American Eagle Gold Proof Coins will not be produced.

2. American Eagle Gold Uncirculated Coins:


Production of United States Mint American
Eagle Gold Proof and Uncirculated Coins has been temporarily suspended
because of unprecedented demand for American Eagle Gold Bullion Coins.
Currently, all available 22-karat gold blanks are being allocated to
the American Eagle Gold Bullion Coin Program, as the United States Mint
is required by Public Law 99-185 to produce these coins “in quantities
sufficient to meet public demand . . . .”

The United States Mint
will resume the American Eagle Gold Proof and Uncirculated Coin
Programs once sufficient inventories of gold bullion blanks can be
acquired to meet market demand for all three American Eagle Gold Coin
products. Additionally, as a result of the recent numismatic product
portfolio analysis, fractional sizes of American Eagle Gold
Uncirculated Coins will no longer be produced.

Update:
Due to the continued, sustained demand for American Eagle Gold Bullion
Coins, 2009-dated American Eagle Gold Uncirculated Coins will not be
produced.

For those looking for Platinum, the 2010 on sale date is still TBD:

In 2009, the United States Mint introduced a new six-year platinum coin program. This new series explores the core concepts of American democracy by highlighting the Preamble to the United States Constitution. This program will examine the six (6) principles of the Preamble as follows:

   1. 2009--To Form a More Perfect Union, SOLD OUT
   2. 2010--To Establish Justice,
   3. 2011--To Insure Domestic Tranquility,
   4. 2012--To Provide for the Common Defence,
   5. 2013--To Promote General Welfare, and
   6. 2014--To Secure the Blessings of Liberty to Ourselves and our Posterity.

The themes for the reverse designs for this program are inspired by narratives prepared by the Chief Justice of the United States, John G. Roberts, Jr., at the request of the United States Mint.

2010 on sale date: To be determined.

 

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Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:33 | 389610 watchingdogma
watchingdogma's picture

It's confusing - but there are actually 3 classes of American Eagles - Proof, Uncirculated and Bullion - after much research - the above only applies to Proof and Uncirculated - they're still producing Bullion - so they haven't run out of Silver/Gold - just short so they're not producing 2 out of the 3 coins for each metal.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:36 | 389622 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

+1. They are still making bullion eagle ounces (not fractionals).

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:37 | 389624 TheGoodDoctor
TheGoodDoctor's picture

Right this is true but you can still get the bullion coins. Proofs and Uncirculated they are not making - and that is for 2009. We don't know about the 2010 Proofs and Uncirculated yet.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:46 | 389652 papaswamp
papaswamp's picture

2010 Buffalos get released tomorrow (proof and uncirc)

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:47 | 389655 demsco
demsco's picture

EXACTLY! This is not new and has been an issue since 2008. Everyone gets all bent out of shape over this, but there is no shortage, just some are not being produced anymore, fractional uncirculated and proofs, but bullion coins are. The blanks are in short supply, there is plenty of gold. The US Mint can only use US mined materials so  keep that in mind please. Besides the buffalo's they use 22kt blanks which is copper, silver mixed in so they may not have those blanks in supply. GoldenEagleCoins has them and I believe APMEX has them if you are jonesing for some Eagles.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:25 | 389792 DosZap
DosZap's picture

demsco,

I am sure you know, but the way you wrote it,likely was missed by those not in the know.

Buffalos, are 24k..............and others are as you stated 22k.

 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:45 | 389646 papaswamp
papaswamp's picture

Bullion cannot be purchased through the mint only the Proof and uncirculated. You must go through a listed dealer to get the bullion.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:06 | 389725 Doc
Doc's picture

Exact-a-mundo as the Fonz would say.

http://www.apmex.com or http://www.tulving.com

 

They've got all the 2010 Eagles and Buffalos anyone wants. Silver a plenty too... no shortage quite yet.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:43 | 389857 UncleFurker
UncleFurker's picture

 

Right.

 

Or http://austinmint.com or http://silver-dollars.com

The numismatic coins are not being produced because the demand for plain jane bullion silver and gold coins is too great. They are mandated by law to fill all market requests for bullion coins before they use what's leftover for numismatic coins and right now, there no blanks left over.

 

 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 18:10 | 390519 BGO
BGO's picture

According to 40 or so dealers listed on http://www.buying-gold-online.com there's still plenty of gold, silver, platinum and palladium coins/bars to go around.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:33 | 389611 KxAlpha
KxAlpha's picture

Nah, they can't make those 2010 plats, "Establish(ing) Justice" and 2010 just doesn't compute.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:35 | 389620 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Mako doesn't have a fucking clue.

His thesis is absolutely correct, only if GOLD DID NOT EXIST ! He, like Denninger believes that money is only credit against all existing assets. I don't even think Mako realizes that he doesn't regard gold as money.

If money was only credit against all assets then yes, the whole system is totally fucked. But what is it going to take to get through your scull that money is not credit against all assets like the FED wants you to believe.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:41 | 389636 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

So what is money then?

By the way, you spelled skull wrong.

It seems to me that mako is one of the more reasonable people on zerohedge.

Denninger blew GG's argument out of the water, but of course, the reply wasn't printed on ZH.  It doesn't fit in with the goldbug "the world is doomed" hysteria.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:52 | 389674 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

Money is something of value.

And Denninger's argument was pathetic at best. People posted his response in GG article comments so everyone got a chance to read it.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:58 | 389700 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

The only thing more pathetic than Denninger's reply are the people that read it and think he makes any sense.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:01 | 389711 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

Sorry, but he killed the shit out of GG's post.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:05 | 389718 lookma
lookma's picture

Sorry, but he killed the shit out of some nonsensical strawman while totally ignoring GG's argument

 

Not that we would expect anything else.  Keep shifting the goalposts Karl

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:07 | 389728 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

LOL.  As if GG has a legitimate argument.

All of his posts are "if ifs and buts were candy and nuts, gold to 17 million, bitchez!"

At least Denninger deals with reality.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:31 | 389810 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

At least Denninger deals with reality.

Right...cause gold being a currency is not a reality...right.

 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:37 | 389835 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

When I can buy groceries with gold, I will believe that it is a currency.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:14 | 389960 Misthos
Misthos's picture

Try buying groceries with Japanese yen.  Will that work?  You still don't get it.  And why do Central Banks hold gold, if it's not money?  And by the way, there are some stores that will take gold and silver, it was on the news a couple years ago.  In Zimbabwe, grams of gold were used as well.  Recently, SEARS has partnered with a cash for gold outfit to better serve their customers.

Don't fight the trend.  You'll be broke as a result.

Or, you can hold onto paper money without hedging with gold...  god knows the world is going to need a lot of bagholders when sovereign defaults hit.  I'm glad you're volunteering to be one of them.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:22 | 389986 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Ill sell you groceries for gold!

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:23 | 389991 hound dog vigilante
hound dog vigilante's picture

You can't buy groceries here in the US with euros/yen/loonies/pounds either, but they're all currencies.

Further, there are many Mom&Pop grocery and other stores where gold and silver are not only welcome, but preferred. I know an IT contractor who's contract terms stipulate payment in gold. I know a landlord who accepts rent paid in silver.

The times are a-changin'... so you can save that gold/grocery argument for the tourists.

 

Gold and silver are no different than coffee and cigarettes. If someone/anyone will accept them in trade, then it is currency.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:51 | 390227 dumpster
dumpster's picture

just keep using your food stamps ,, mr bravo out of work zit faced trader   ladies man about town , ..

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 17:17 | 390419 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

When a currency carries the value of my savings into the future, I'll believe it is money.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 18:26 | 390556 HK
HK's picture

Do a google on Robert Kahre and you'll find the government's response to using gold and silver coins as legal tender.  It provides a perfect example of what has happened to our currency.

 

http://www.fff.org/blog/jghblog2009-06-03.asp

 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 22:32 | 390969 ED
ED's picture

How bigs your appetite, Johnny?

Thu, 06/03/2010 - 03:45 | 391254 Insert witty title
Insert witty title's picture

Do you live in London? I will sell you groceries for gold. Do you need anything else? I will provide any physical goods you require in exchange for gold.

 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:01 | 389709 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

Money is an abstract concept that is traded for assets and labor.  Money backs assets and labor, since people will provide assets and labor for money.

If FRN's aren't something of value, why don't you give me yours then?
I'll gladly take all of them off your hands at 50 cents on the dollar.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:09 | 389736 RonnieHonduras
RonnieHonduras's picture

To quote Murray Rothbard: 

"...Money is a commodity. Learning this simple lesson is one of the world's most important tasks. So often have people talked about money as something much more or less than this. Money is not an abstract unit of account, divorceable from a concrete good; it is not a useless token only good for exchanging; it is not a "claim on society"; it is not a guarantee of a fixed price level. It is simply a commodity. It differs from other commodities in being demanded mainly as a medium of exchange. But aside from this, it is a commodity--and, like all commodities, it has an existing stock, it faces demands by people to buy and hold it, etc. Like all commodities, its "price"--in terms of other goods--is determined by the interaction of its total supply, or stock, and the total demand by people to buy and hold it. (People "buy" money by selling their goods and services for it, just as they "sell" money when they buy goods and services.)"

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:16 | 389761 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

Commodities have value, no?

I guess that goes against the argument that "FRN's are worthless"

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:31 | 389807 RonnieHonduras
RonnieHonduras's picture

They are a commodity currently perceived to have value. That can change overnight to zero.  Gold, I assume, could do the same. But then again, Pharaohs were burrying themselves with the stuff, Same with most ancients.  The conquistidores throttled South / central america for it. It backed the U.S. $ until 1972.  Tell me who the shmucks are in the history of money?  Paper Keynesian-rooted experiments? Or folks who think gold will eventually outvalue slips of paper printed by corrupt banking-political nexus powerbrokers?

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:36 | 389834 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

Yeah, but you are assuming that other people are not buying assets with their FRN's.

Values of commodities are relative.  You lose 3% a year on FRN's in GOOD times.
How much value did gold lose in good times?

In bad times, like right now, the value of dollars actually increase, since there are not enough of them around.  Sure, the price of gold is increasing at a faster rate, but look at the downside when things recover!

As far as pharaohs and the like, I don't plan on holding anything for 3000 years.  I'll die much sooner.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:58 | 389903 Mr. Mandelbrot
Mr. Mandelbrot's picture

You mean IF things recover . . .

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:01 | 389913 WaterWings
WaterWings's picture

What other sites do you troll? Or is dumpster correct about you?

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:33 | 390025 hound dog vigilante
hound dog vigilante's picture

"Values of commodities are relative..."

The value of EVERYTHING is relative. Your point/argument gets weaker and weaker with each post...

Fiat currency has a terrible, tragic track record. They all collapse, despite most being partially backed by land/assets/might. A fiat regime backed by *nothing* is largely unprecedented, and that's exactly what we have had since 1971. Dollar hegemony is doomed to fail, probably sooner than later. Gold is the exit plan, whether one can eat it or not.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:06 | 389929 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

One explanation I read about gold and silver having cross values among that many societies is that many societies around the world (have) worshipped the Sun and the Moon. Gold was associated with the Sun and silver was associated with the Moon.

I wrote that because you brought that story of Pharaohs and stuff.

That is a remnant of religious beliefs.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:47 | 390051 DiverCity
DiverCity's picture

That's just ridiculous.  Muslim societies, Christian societies, Buddhist societies, etc. were/are not sun and moon worshippers.  Perhaps it is some sort of vestigial/genetic/hard-wired quirk of humanity, but don't deny that the lure of gold is still strong the world over.  If it is indeed now hard-wired through repeated cultural appreciation over tens of thousands of years of modern behavioral humanity, why fight nature, dude?  Just jump on the bandwagon and ride!

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 19:23 | 390702 Troublehoff
Troublehoff's picture

I don't know too many commodities that can be conjured up with the stroke of an enter key.

In an unsustainable system, the only comoditiy I can guarantee will keep pace with this fractional reserve 'ever expanding or I collapse' system is FIAT currency.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:47 | 390056 thesapein
thesapein's picture

Nice quote.

And prices, wages, etc. are just rates of exchanges, I'd add.

Gold bugs are slowly realizing the money trap of thinking in terms of money instead of rates.

 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:14 | 389754 WilliamC
WilliamC's picture

Make that a 1964 or prior US 50-cent coin and I'll take you up on it...

 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:17 | 389763 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

I'll do even better.  I'll give you 50 cents worth of gold!

Come on... gold is pretty, shiny, and you can hold it in your hand!

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:31 | 389811 tmosley
tmosley's picture

So you're saying you will trade me one American Gold Eagle for 100 FRN's?

Where do I sign up?  I'll take all ya got.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:33 | 389819 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

I don't understand how you even came to that conclusion about what I said.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:54 | 389886 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Shows how very little you know about gold.

A one ounce American Gold Eagle has a face value of fifty dollars.  I would happily pay one hundred dollars for them all day long.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:58 | 389906 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

Okay, well then sell me your American Gold Eagle for fifty dollars then.

It should have been obvious that I wasn't talking face value, which is why I still don't understand why you came to the conclusion you did.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:13 | 389954 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Snark breeds snark, JB.  You are spouting off about selling gold for double its current market value, so people spout off back to you about buying AGEs and St. Gaudin's coins for just double face value.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:31 | 389808 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Note definition. 1. Written undertaking by one party (the writer or maker) to pay a specified sum of money to a named party (the payee) or to the bearer (holder) of the note, on demand or on a stated date.

If money is in the definition of a note that how could the note be money ?

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:15 | 390127 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Money is what you use at the grocery store instead of getting an egg's worth of hamburger.  -Ned

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:27 | 390153 Monty
Monty's picture

Money is an adjective, not a noun. Money is a property; a description of use or utility. If I can use a thing *as* money, then it *is* money.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:46 | 389863 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Love the handle. Ohhhh, mamma!

Money is simply a medium of exchange.  A currency that represents that medium of exchange can be of something of value if (a) there are real assets that explicitly back that currency; or (b) there is an underlying faith that anything in fiat form can be accepted as (at least) a temporary store of value. 

I'm not sure there is anything abstract about money-- it either exists and is accepted as such-- or it doesn't.

Gold, on the other hand, is a store of value.  Sometimes gold is money; sometimes it is not.  Most of the time it is not, because gold has been proven to be a poor medium of exchange (supply/demand, scarcity factors, crude tool to control infationary forces, etc.).   Still, due to it's scarcity factor and practical uses, it can serve its purpose.

Gold tends to be viewed as both a store and a medium of exchange in societies that don't trust the "full faith and credit" concept of the fiat system of money.  When money/credit is created well beyond the capacity to produce, then you have issues about that money as a temporary store of value.

Today, I would accept FRN's as money.  But I wouldn't dismiss the concept of gold serving as both a store of value and a temporary medium of exchange, primarily because we risk producing more FRNs than we have the capacity to produce in terms of good and services. 

In other words, all that keeps FRNs from losing their value is a loss of collective faith. Perhaps that is the abstract concept you are seeking.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:52 | 389883 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

That's what I meant about abstract.  Only the concept that people accept it gives it value.

I don't know about you, but I'm not looking to store my wealth for centuries or whatever.  If I'm not making money in the here and now with other assets, I might as well be giving money away.

The scarcity of gold is what makes it rare and retain value, but even that value is subjective.  Also, the scarcity of it is what makes it impractical to back economic activity.

I agree with what you say though, I'm just explaining where I'm coming from.  I didn't have to call you a moron or a troll to do it, either.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:59 | 389909 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

Also, Johnny Bravo was hilarious.  He was always getting bitch slapped by women and such.  LOL

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:42 | 390207 dumpster
dumpster's picture

johnny the mouth .. what will be your story when gold hits 1300 then 1400

twp dance into some rolled up position as the gals walk away .. seeing your true colors , zit head , troll , out of work mouth

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 16:20 | 390289 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Hey, dumpster, he already owes us a hat-eating for gold maintaining the $1,200 level.

If it gets to $1,400 maybe we can get him to promise to eat his own shitty underwear.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 16:35 | 390331 akak
akak's picture

.

Doesn't one have to grow out of wearing diapers before graduating to underwear?

To judge from the maturity level displayed in his innumerable posts, I would guess that our dear little Johnny is still waddling around with a big wet load, which he regularly empties here on ZeroHedge.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 17:04 | 390386 dumpster
dumpster's picture

the clown does not own a hat ,, ,, an out of work zit

pretending off his crib notes

i mde him a wager ,, down a few posts .. i am sure he will run and hide

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 18:55 | 390613 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

You guys are a hoot. 

I wonder:  If gold is such a useless thing, why do central banks hold it as a foundation of their reserves?  Why does the IMF use it in its international transactions?  Why does lead or some other metal not serve in the making of wedding rings?  So, what's so hot about gold?  In answering those questions one can draw some conclusions about the "relic".

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 19:15 | 390666 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

 

 

dumpster and RockyR, two of my favorites rockin' on!

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 19:24 | 390705 dumpster
dumpster's picture

the gold idiots with out a clue about gold

 

read this .. gold back currencies coming

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldenJackass/1275508800.php

Thu, 06/03/2010 - 01:25 | 391196 Assetman
Assetman's picture

I don't know about you, but I'm not looking to store my wealth for centuries or whatever.  If I'm not making money in the here and now with other assets, I might as well be giving money away.

Perhaps you should.  Maybe not for a century.  And maybe not your whole investing portfolio.

History is littered with evidence that gold becomes money when all other mediums of exchange fail to be accepted.  And in a fiat world, about the worst gold can do for you is serve as a store of value.

For decades, the world has accepted the US dollar as a fairly universal fiat medium of exchange... and for good reason.  Not as universal as gold, but good enough in many a currency crisis to be a more efficient substitiute.  But the world is changing... and in ways we just cannot predict with certainty.  What is certain is that our Federal Reserve appears committed to replicate FRNs as a central strategy to combat deflation-- and to an insane degree, if necessary.  I see risk with that strategy.

So... while I'm not a total "goldbug", I am persuaded enough by the available evidence to question whether the US dollar will serve as an effective medium of exchange and temporary store of value over the next decade.  Most of my "money" today is in FRN's, though I think I'm pragmatic enough to see how faith in our currency can be lost pretty quickly.  Thus gold+silver, and the commodity currencies, such as the AUD and CAD, are a part of my CYA agenda.

Sure, making money in the "here and now" is all good... if you like a simulated casino.  Like you, I invest what I know.  But I also try to cover the tail risks.  I see gold as just one of many these days.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:48 | 389872 Double down
Double down's picture

I agree that GG got bloodied. 

However FRNs to Karl have no intrinsic value because they are credit and credit is "not something produced".  They are not synonymous with wealth.

However, Karl claims that FRNs represent the convertibility of a store of value.  By themselves FRNs have no intrinsic value, only a speculative premium.  In short they are not wealth, they only REPRESENT wealth.   

This is why he is wrong, twice.  FRNs is a representation of non produced store of value whose intrinsic component is its speculative premium.

Just

like

gold

So, if FRNs are credit and credit is money then gold is money and gold is credit.  Credit that is less fraud.

 

 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:56 | 389895 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

Yeah, FRN's are just like any other commodity.  it is the perceived value that gives them value.  Just like gold.

If oil wasn't used for gasoline, it'd be worthless.  People called it a "curse" when they found oil on their land in the 1850s when looking for water.

Gold is used for... ummm... uhhh... jewelry?  And this, along with its scarcity gives gold value.

Still, it's only the perception of value that gives it value.  It's only the perception of gold's value that makes prices 1220 or whatever.
Still, who is doing the valuing?  Aha... retail investors...

Anyway, yeah, I thought GG got his butt whooped pretty handily, but I'm obviously biased.  Then again, so are his supporters...

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:03 | 389921 Monty
Monty's picture

I hate to be a pedant (honest!) but oil actually has many uses other than that of being made into gasoline. For one thing, petroleum is a primary component of most plastics. It also forms the basis for things like tar and asphalt. Another major use is as a lubricant. Oil would be worth less if it weren't needed for fuels, but it would still be a valuable and necessary resource.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:11 | 389950 Assetman
Assetman's picture

So is whale blubber.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:44 | 390211 dumpster
dumpster's picture

so go harpoon a whale

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:56 | 390233 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Dude... don't need to... that stuff can be outsourced.

I'd rather read Moby Dick than be Captain Ahab-ed.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:20 | 389984 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Of course, one can wipe their ass with a FRN so I guess that would be, how you say, an intrinsic value being a paper-like material and all. It's not quilted though.

The thing about gold and perceived value is that it is a rather persistent (almost consistent) perception, historically speaking. Damnable human nature anyway.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 16:18 | 390282 Double down
Double down's picture

I sort of agree, it is just that that was not what Denninger said. 

I am also not attacking you.  I do not think you are a... troll. 

I only have a problem with Karl.

The problem here is that value is supposed to approximate utility.  I am fine with that, it is just that Karl would not agree.   According to him whatever is produced is wealth.  Would he call the overproduction of something poverty?  Would two shelters double the shelter value?  No, in fact the second shelter is marginally less valuable then the first to the owner. 

Intrinsic values do not sum to the benefit of its owner, only the speculative premiums do.  If the former did there would be no such thing as a marginally decreasing utility, wealth would never be destroyed and poverty would not exist.   

But that is not what Denninger claims.  By his position there cannot be overproduction of anything because in his world wealth is wealth regardless of pricing mechanisms.  Markets only price speculative premiums.  But, wealth to him has nothing to do with speculative premiums.  Those are noise, or errors, not the manifestations of premiums or discounts on the value on the intrinsic values. 

Wealth to Denninger is the intrinsic value alone.  I find that position troublesome as the scarcity of anything is not accounted for, including the scarcity of wealth.  

Thus to him, (and given only the replies he gave to GG) there cannot be too much of anything produced.  Inflation to him is not a question of too much money, but too many goods.  I am not sure about that.

Money has to be a quantum otherwise one could not be wealthy and sell ones possessions.  Money as a representation of wealth is also the very wealth it represents.  This should be impossible because money to Denninger is not produced, it is a given, like trust.  

When CBs increase the money supply have they, with a series of key strokes produced commoditable trust?  No, what they have produced the denominator for both the unit of measure and the store of value: Collateral. 

When a faith in a currency is lost, what goes missing is the collateral aspect of the FRN.  Net of your money, your possessions are still there, and in that sense your are still "wealthy".  You can still measure your wealth in terms of the failed currency.  It is just that you cannot use the currency to realize your wealth through transactions.  It will simply stop working; the intrinsic value of money is its utility, its utility as collateral.

 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:59 | 389908 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Nope.

If everyone on earth paid back all of their loans there would be no dollars in the banks. In other words, no capital in the banks. Try running a banking system with no capital.

Hello gold.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:43 | 390210 dumpster
dumpster's picture

right dennenger spot on .. you cant eat gold ,,have sex with it ,, your hero

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:57 | 390237 ConfederateH
ConfederateH's picture

Denninger's writing style is practically unlegible.  I can usually only stomach a few sentences before his ego completely turns me off.  Anybody who made it through his 5 page rambling rebuttal has my pity.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:57 | 389899 A Texan
A Texan's picture

"If FRN's aren't something of value, why don't you give me yours then?
I'll gladly take all of them off your hands at 50 cents on the dollar."

 

OK, fine by me - I'll trade you all of my FRNs for $0.50 on the dollar...provided that your $0.50 is in the form of pre-1965 dimes, quarters or half-dollars (or even the pre-1936 silver dollars).  I'll even be generous and give you a 5% allowance for the transaction cost of acquiring the change that you'll give me.  How do you like that deal?

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 17:25 | 390429 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Beautiful!

A dollar ain't a dollar no more!

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:08 | 390111 dumpster
dumpster's picture

i am sure money to you is an abstract principle having none to speak of , fresh on the unemployment line at the local state job division ,, drawing unemploymentchecks .. waving your hand in the air as you attend the community college,.. checking in weekly ,, lieing  about your job searches

i have four sons just a few years older .. all work ,, familys three own their own business, // and i believe your resume wanting a position as president to start ,, would signal a zit faced youngster in big denial .

 

go off get some experience then take on the likes of sinclair , russell , dines,  sprout, and a truly battle tested group of market pros ,

mince meat is your fate if you keep trying to impress your self with scripted notes about gold .. and a back slapping fiction writer . with zero understanding about the world ,, you way to young and as you grow up.. you will wonder why you were so stupid , back then . and trying to act brave in a world of experienced competition

Thu, 06/03/2010 - 03:50 | 391256 Insert witty title
Insert witty title's picture

Incorrect. root of all economic activity is barter ie exchange of one good or service for another.

Money facilitates this exchange.

Or to use your language, assets and labor are exchanged for assets and labor. Money facilitates the exchange.

 

' Money backs assets and labor, since people will provide assets and labor for money'

 

Incorrect and this is why you dont' get it.

People dont' provide assets and labor for money they provide assets and labor for assets and labor. Any surplus in their production can be stored in form of money.

What do you want from money?

 

1. Durable - so soft commodities not so good

 

2. Difficult to forge

 

3. Available in sufficient quantities to satisfy size of economy as measured by production but sufficiently scarce that supply is stable

 

Gold ticks those boxes. As does paper currency under a gold or whatever standard.

Put down your textbook, get out in the real world and start thinking for yourself about what you see.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:02 | 389917 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Because a credit against all assets is not something of value?

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:08 | 389732 robobbob
robobbob's picture

A member put it up the response in the comments secton.

In the end, it comes down to opinion, and how you choose to weigh the facts. Much like after the crash, whichever side proves correct will step up to claim credit.

Remind everyone about certain experts du jour? 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:11 | 389744 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

I just wonder why it didn't get "equal" time?

Could it be all the advertisements for bullion everywhere?

Nah... couldn't be.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:33 | 389821 fuu
fuu's picture

How do contextual ads support this argument either way?

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:39 | 389839 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

Because the people that are selling the advertisements are the same people controlling what is posted?

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:43 | 389856 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

No.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:04 | 389922 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

 There is more adds that want to BUY YOUR GOLD. Look at the " Dollars for gold superbowl commercial.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:20 | 389982 Slewburger
Slewburger's picture

If that's the case then can someone please direct me to the cougar dating post?

I would like more information on "investing".

 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:15 | 390130 dumpster
dumpster's picture

yep they have paid the price to be able to finance a web page ,, quoted all over in business publication on the internet ,

and Johnny bravo sets picking zits .. wondering how to get a job..

step #1  get work

step # 2  do something worth while and be productive

step # 3  move along in the process of gaining experience ,,

Step # 4  start a web page .. advertise  and be anti gold you should be a raving success .. even as gold goes to 1500,, keep your 800 target  as china and Russia scoop up the gold to back a new currency .

 

while you set on your hands playing gorden brown. and advertise to the world a losing hand ,

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:43 | 389853 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

Maybe because KD didn't bother to post it on ZH himself.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:45 | 389862 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

You have to be "authorized" to create content on zerohedge.  Most authorized people share the point of view of the owners of the site... which is fine.  I'm just saying that it doesn't exactly allow for equal points of view, like Fox News.

Of course, Zerohedge actually uses facts and tells the truth.  I just disagree with their conclusions on occasion.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:51 | 389879 swamp
swamp's picture

Money has inherent, real value. It is itself real value.

Currency has promised value.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 16:11 | 390267 VodkaInKrakow
VodkaInKrakow's picture

A Federal Reserve Note is a substitute for legal tender. It is a bank note.  A bank note is a promissory note.  In other words, debt.  All promissory notes called "Federal Reserve Notes" are a promise to pay back in real wealth the face value of the promissory Federal Reserve note.

 

Those promissory Federal Reserve Notes are theoretically redeemed by The Federal Reserve Banks, which are then redeemed by The U.S. Treasury, and finally redeemed by the American public.  The wealth flows in reverse from the American public to The Treasury and, finally, to The Federal Reserve.

 

Are you a bank? You owe all those promissory Federal Reserve notes to The Fed.  The Fed comes a'callin', you foreclose on all your customer's real property and turn that over to The Fed if you cannot pay back in full what you owe The Fed.  And, as we all know, all banks are over-leveraged and cannot possibly hope to ever do so.

 

Every promissory Federal Reserve note you hold is a dollar you owe, not in fiat currency, but in real wealth. Resources, land, manufactured goods, your daughter's (or son's - if approached by a Saudi businessman) virginity, etc.

 

Your basic definition of fiat currency. Modern fiat currency. Transfer of wealth. Debt slavery.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:36 | 389623 Slewburger
Slewburger's picture

I wouldn't trade mine for FRNs...

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:55 | 389672 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Quite frankly, I'd rather own Canadian Maple Leafs.

It's a trust issue.

And I'm really not that much of a goldbug.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:08 | 389933 Monty
Monty's picture

Does "trust" really matter, though? I mean, I'll buy whatever is going cheap: maple-leafs, pandas, sovereigns, whatever, as long as it's fine gold. It's the metal I'm interested in, not the minting authority. It's not like I'm going to use the coin as legal tender anyway (well, unless gold drops below the face-value of the coin, but that seems...unlikely).

I started buying gold so I don't *have* to "trust" the issuer. Gold is gold.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:24 | 389993 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Unless it is not.  Or partially.  I have this nagging tungsten fixation...

Trust does really matter in the end.  Otherwise, we'd just all be happy with the FRNs we've piled up over time due to our successes in the stock market.  Do you trust that an entity producing your coins is the same entity that is supporting a deficit campaign that could end up trashing its own currency?

Or... do you trust that an authorized dealer in U.S. issued gold coins isn't a conduit for tracing your transactions, you know, in case there was an executive order to confiscate it?

I know paranoia isn't a heathy way of maintaining one's sanity, but if I'm going to own a stash, I want to have some confidence it is what it is, and that I can keep it until it is needed.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:34 | 390027 Monty
Monty's picture

I get where you're coming from, and I handle it in the following ways:

1. Always pay cash. I don't buy bullion with checks or credit cards. No paperwork. I plunk down the cash, they give me my coins. End of transaction. You pay a premium to transact business this way, but it's the price you pay for anonymity. Uncle Sam can only take it if he knows I have it.

2. I have my coins assayed periodically. (Not recently, which is bad -- I need to get it done again.)

3. Buy from reputable dealers/vendors. I've never been burned on American Eagles. In fact, I've only ever bought one dud: a fake Mexican 20 Peso gold coin. This was one of my first purchases years ago, and was the main reason I started being more careful about which dealers I buy from. It was an expensive lesson.

4. I generally prefer silver to gold. Silver is much easier to buy and hold if you're on a budget (aren't we all?). The price does tend to be more volatile than gold, but I like to hold silver. Silver is more useful as money than gold is in a lot of ways.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:34 | 390186 Assetman
Assetman's picture

NOW I think we're on the same wavelength... adequately crazy and paranoid. ;)

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 17:34 | 390451 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Funny. It all sounds adequately sane and reasonable to me *based on property rights issues). The scary part is that people have to think this way in the first place.

Thu, 06/03/2010 - 13:27 | 392190 Assetman
Assetman's picture

Agreed, oh great mathmatical one without a Tipper. ;)

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:39 | 389630 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

So what?  So retail investors are paying 1400 for a one ounce gold coin that is worth 700 once all the hype dies.

It's no different than any other bubble.  Retail investors flock frantically to buy assets right at the top, before they crash.  Meanwhile, the heavy hitters go short and make another killing, after riding the bubble to the top.

We're seeing this as the biggest banks on the planet are now short gold.

Like I've been saying, you don't buy fire insurance the day AFTER your house burns down.  This is precisely what goldbugs are doing.

You can print so much more money before hyperinflation is an issue that this is all obviously the wrong call.

Look how the Fed's balance sheet has tripled over the last two years, and inflation is flat to negative.  That's because the money is needed to pay for economic activity that already exists.  Inflation only comes when more money is available than economic activity.  This is clearly not the case, and why hyperinflationist goldbugs are clearly wrong.

I'm going to do a CB here:
"Why, if half the gold in the world disappears, we make it the new reserve currency, all the gold in fort knox is actually tungsten, and we print 500 trillion dollars, gold is fairly valued at 50000 an ounce!"

Gold to 50000, bitchez! 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:47 | 389649 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

Get rich or die tryin' Johnny. Short that big fat sack of loot. Teach us rubes the tricks of 'da trade'. You are gonna make Mad Money, son. I'll name my firstborn Johnny Bravo. Actually he is already born, but I will re-name him.

Johnny Dangerously!

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:51 | 389671 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

I will get rich or die trying.  One thing that I've learned by watching other "investors" is that hold and pray is never a good strategy...

You gotta be NIMBLE, son.  And don't equate anything I do with Cramer.  I actually know what I'm talking about and don't throw darts at 50000 random stocks.

I mean, no wonder Cramer is wrong.  You can't make 50000 calls a day and make money that way.  Real traders specialize in relatively small parts of markets... and make money trading the same things over and over.  Cramer tries to be an expert on everything, which is impossible.

You can make more money trading just VXX than you can trading 15 other stocks.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:57 | 389697 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

Atta boy Johnny. You a hustla, baby.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:12 | 389745 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

Sure am!

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:55 | 389892 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

MARLA...where are those "ignore" buttons I asked you for?

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:22 | 389781 JlM CRAMER
JlM CRAMER's picture

You're not the man I thought you were. :(

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:32 | 389814 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

LOL.  I love the avatar for Cramer.  I'm seriously laughing really hard right now.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:37 | 389837 tmosley
tmosley's picture

This post reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMqu5HkGRfY&feature=related

51 seconds.

CAT LIKE REFLEXES!

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:41 | 389845 43 Steelie
43 Steelie's picture

Wait wait, I almost started giving you some type of respect for your contrarian arguments until this:

Your idea of wealth creation is to play VXX and leveraged ETFs? Aka securities that have very little underlying value and don't even track what they claim to track long-term. You fucking kidding me?

No wonder you're unemployed

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:05 | 389924 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Is that all you care about: "getting rich"?

"Die trying."

We miss you on #trading.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:49 | 390220 dumpster
dumpster's picture

and 90 percent lose in the trading pits .

and your experience trading vxx is a tell ,, on your vaunted trading skills ,, of course losing 200 bucks is a sure way to riches

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:54 | 389680 sumo
sumo's picture

That was a hilarious movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087507/). Recommended.

 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:53 | 389679 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

No, in your case it's a sure sign of people realizing what a waste of time arguing with you is.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:56 | 389693 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

Because they cannot make arguments against my points, as they are valid.

If they could, they would.  Instead, they just make stupid claims like "Gold to 36000 or 50000" based on evidence from what?  Gold salesmen?  LOL!

Look, I'll debate anybody here all day about any of my points.  The fact that they can't make an argument against my points speaks for itself.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:40 | 389842 tmosley
tmosley's picture

We've pointed out all of the problems with your arguments a thousand times, but you refuse to listen.  You're a troll.  No-one wants to talk with you because of it.

Most of us don't have "all day" to spar with some random moron on the internet.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:48 | 389871 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

Instead, you have all day to read blogs from gold salesmen about how gold will be at 36000, 50000, or 96 billion gajillion.

You, tmosley, have never, EVER challenged ONE single point in any of my arguments.  As far as I've seen, you've always called me a troll, moron, or whatever the word of the day is.
You don't talk inflation, you don't talk asset valuation, you don't talk fundamentals or technicals.

You recite the same talking points that the gold salesman blog told you to recite, and say that the US will be Zimbabwe by tomorrow.

I'd rather have another opinion than parrot what a salesman told me.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:56 | 389897 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Allow me to play the worlds smallest violin for the world's least effective person.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:08 | 389935 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

That gave me a chuckle.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:59 | 389907 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

Your talking points are wearing a little thin and getting old also, pal.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:08 | 389936 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

Don't let the haterzz get you down, Johnny. You got the right stuff!

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:27 | 390008 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Man.  When your only supporter is Internet Douche Bag then you really need to consider either joining a monastery or suicide.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:33 | 390024 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

Your fascination with feminine hygiene is telling. Touch of the lavender? Share with the group.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:46 | 390050 swamp
swamp's picture

He's nothing more than a profane bully who hates the feminine.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:49 | 390063 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

He's not the brightest stalker; he can't tell whether I am praising or mocking someone. I have a good laugh with him, though.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 16:26 | 390299 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

I'm glad you can laugh with me.  I can only laugh at you.

I am Chumbawamba.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:45 | 389861 ejmoosa
ejmoosa's picture

I've noticed that the gold salesmen are still only taking greenbacks for their product.  When they quit taking the cash, then I'll consider that a warning sign.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 20:29 | 390804 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't it be TOO LATE by then?

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 19:15 | 390668 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

"Because they cannot make arguments against my points, as they are valid."

 

Yaa. Johnny is not only the master baiter. He's the validater. The gold hater and the stupidity mater.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:23 | 390149 akak
akak's picture

"The people who junk my posts are just weak people that can't make valid arguments.  Notice how none of the points are ever challenged?

Being junked on zerohedge is a sure sign that your calls are right."

I am now automatically junking EVERY post of "JohnnyBravo", aka MasterBates, because his ONLY contribution here on ZeroHedge is to troll and disrupt ANY conversation involving gold in the most disingenuous and malicious of manners.  This troll is sickeningly obsessive and warped, admitting on more than one occasion that he is here ONLY to troll and hound the advocates of gold, and to drop irrelevant and insulting stinkbombs into any discussion surrounding gold.  If there were any moderation of this forum, this insidious troll would justifiably be banned.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 16:43 | 390352 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Well, Akak, here we are again.  Fully half of the text on this page of comments is by JB (alias MB).  Again...  When will this stop?  The final straw for me was his statement that his arguments have not been refuted.  That is wrong and he just is here to cause trouble.  I've had enough as well.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:50 | 389669 economicmorphine
economicmorphine's picture

Ask 10 of your friends if they know anyone who is buying gold now.  Most will say what you say  No, it's too expensive.  Compare that to their behavior in the dotcom and the housing bubbles.  If you can't see the difference, it's because you don't want to.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:53 | 389678 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

Actually, a lot of my friends wanted to buy gold right now.  My mom told me to.  My barber told me to.

What do all of these people have in common?  A lack of any knowledge about financial markets whatsoever.

They all think that since an asset is up 500% that it's the time to buy.

I remind them that the time to buy gold is in good economic times, and the time to buy stocks is at Dow 6500.  NOT the other way around...

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:33 | 389818 MnMark
MnMark's picture

If you went by the same logic in the 1970s at the point gold was up by 500% from its start at $35, you would have missed out on the rest of the 2400% increase it eventually had.

Your point that widespread interest in an asset is a contrarian indicator is well-taken. 

But gold won't lose its appeal for me until I see credible evidence that the government is getting the deficit and the debt under control.  At this point I think it's too late for that.  There's no political will for the austerity that would be required.  The easiest, and thus most likely, path is to print money, which the government does by buying bad assets, nationalizing companies, etc.  And that will ruin the dollar.

Until I see evidence that real austerity is being undertaken, I'm sticking with gold regardless of how high it's risen.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:43 | 389854 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

You do make good points about austerity.

I view the current situation as more like the early 80s than the 70s, but that's just my take on things.

I believe that much more than the fiscal irresponsibility of governments and the inflation needed to pay off such debts is already taken into account in the price of gold.  The value of gold has risen much faster than inflation, or the deficit.

Sure, that doesn't mean that it won't go higher, but that isn't a guarantee either.  I'd just rather take quick snipes, or stay out of it altogether at this point.  Setting up for the long term after an asset is up so high isn't really a good idea.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:30 | 390016 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

"The value of gold has risen much faster than inflation, or the deficit".

Are you for real? Are you that fucking stupid? 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:31 | 390022 dumpster
dumpster's picture

the early 80s you were not born looking forward to be an out of work student

thinking you have the savy of a sinclair  a richard russell . a jim dines .. you spout straw men , best for you to strive for some experience in the world of life ,,

it comes with a certain amount of proving your self in the battle of real competition ,, this takes some time ,

so far we know you are a zit faced one step hipster, ringing up lap top crib sheet answers .

out of work ,, still not eating your hat at gold 1200,,

give it time ,, nobody says gold 50000 billion at what ever your anal mind conjures up out of whole cloth .

until dumpster sees more than a mouth the roars ,, your young out of work resume would place you in a low level of entry level asst manager in a starbucks coffee shop .. mixing lattes for a bevy of productive wage earners

most of the respected 50 year veterans of the world of work have proven themselves over and over ,

for now instead of a deliverer of pizza ,, try to get a job ,, when that is done accomplish something.

lets see your tired mouth at 1500 gold come december.

frankly your  tedious post about gold .. show the shallow nature of what is going on in a Keynesian world of fraud and  susceptible brain washed little troll in a world of productive adults

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:41 | 389846 tmosley
tmosley's picture

You're a liar or you're the village idiot in a town full of financial geniuses.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:54 | 389887 swamp
swamp's picture

He might be the reincarnation of Master Bates!

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:58 | 389902 tmosley
tmosley's picture

He is, actually.  He claims to have forgotten his password.  Understandable, for someone so lacking in intellect.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:07 | 389726 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

Ask 10 of your friends if they know anyone who is buying gold now.  Most will say what you say  No, it's too expensive.  Compare that to their behavior in the dotcom and the housing bubbles.  If you can't see the difference, it's because you don't want to.

Couldn't have said it better!

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:09 | 389735 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

From another ZH article:

"Production of United States Mint American Eagle Silver Proof and Uncirculated Coins has been temporarily suspended because of unprecedented demand for American Eagle Silver Bullion Coins"

Hmmm... unprecendented demand.

Like unprecedented demand for houses in 2006, and unprecedented demand for internet stocks in 2000.

I guess nobody is buying with "unprecedented demand" though.  Only the smart investors on zerohedge, and the people who watch Faux News, and my barber, and mother, and friends.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:15 | 389758 RonnieHonduras
RonnieHonduras's picture

Except this demand is based in the simple reality that units of currency are on a curve to infinity given the sovereign and CB balance sheets are accepting assets that are backed by insolvency... and the sovereigns themselves are inherently mid-term insovlent. Greece = Canary in the coalmine.  

When gold supply can match units of currency growth, then you're onto something. Until, enjoy your pieces of digital air backed by jackoffs in the govts.

 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:19 | 389769 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

The United States is not Greece, or Zimbabwe, or whoever you say it is this week.

Two, you can't back growth with gold because gold is limited and finite.  There are far more assets available and potentially available than gold.

If FRNs are worthless, I will gladly take any of yours.  For a fee, of course...

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:43 | 389858 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Johnny thinks it can't happen here, not to the mighty United States.  Surely, our lords and masters are smarter, even as they pursue the same policies that destroyed Zimbabwe and a dozen other banana republics.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:35 | 390030 swamp
swamp's picture

Johnny thinks it isn't happening here. A trilion here, a trillion there, a trillion more everywhere = Zimbawbae or Argentina. 

We are becoming that now. It is in the works, in the making, and anyone who thinks gold has topped doesn't understand. Period.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 15:41 | 390205 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Contrast current U.S. policies with a) Greece policies before the bailout and b) IMF imposed policies and direction.

Extra credit: since that blessed day January 20, 2008, which has grown faster, the U.S. deficit or the price of gold?

- Ned

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:47 | 389867 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

Growth is limited and finite. If you're expecting infinite growth, well you've got what's coming to you.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 14:08 | 389925 RonnieHonduras
RonnieHonduras's picture

ONE: The U.S. is functionally insolvent when you NPV all promises.  Politicians are vote whores.  Banking bastards are all about printing money through fractional reserve fraudstering.  Add these together, and you discover the longest lenght of rope before all of the above run out of it, and it is through inflation of currency supply, plain and simple. Perhaps not to infinity, but sufficiently stupid to achieve stagflationary problems of a severe scale.

 

TWO, back growth with gold?!?  For starters, you have an inflatinoary mindset that does not permit you to see that units of currency can actually gain in purchasing power in a normally functioning society, where govts and banks don't confiscate econoimc efficiencies through coordinated devaluation of currency, and then some.  Yes, odd as it may sound, a person should grow wealthier over time simply by holding his currency, not the opposite as we've been brainwashed by experience to believe is the natural state of economic gravity. It's not!

  Second, I'm not advocating a gold backed currency. I do back a market chosen currency, which historically have remained metals of high value to weight ratios.  (Personally, I'd prefer a basket-backed currency, but someone else may choose gold.  Let the market provide alternatives. Historically gold and silver have won out, at least until kings, politicians, and bankers yanked control and began shaving coins / fractional reserve frauding by fiat).

I will gladly take all the worthless gold and silver you have in exchange for my excess $$'s.

One day people will wake up and realize that dollars have more common with sand than they do other commodities, and the unit exchange of the dollar will plummet el rapido.

 

Thu, 06/03/2010 - 04:25 | 391266 Insert witty title
Insert witty title's picture

peak oil much? or if you don't believe in finite resources what about population growth vs arable land?

 

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 12:57 | 389698 papaswamp
papaswamp's picture

Well JB I can only speak for myself. Gold is too expensive for me at the moment. I stoped buying way back when it was in the low 800's (but I do love Silver). I purchase hard assets not as an investment to be later cashed in for crappy paper. I buy it as insurance against a future possible collapse of the economy or some other cause, where hard assets will be used in a barter system. there are actually places that take silver and gold as payment for items needed. But I'm a whacko survivalist so I really don't count in the scheme of market discussion.

You may make a ton of $$ shorting the market, but if it all does come crumbling down..you won't have anything (unless you are spending your money on something useful). If it doesn't then you can be a happy rich guy.

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:22 | 389783 Johnny Bravo
Johnny Bravo's picture

At least you bought it at a semi-reasonable level.  Buying at the peak is never a good idea.

At least you didn't claim to buy it at 250 or whatever like all the other people here.  (yeah right!)

I'd say gold's fair value is about 700, personally, but 800 gives you some great profits.  1200 is just nonsense.  "going to 50000" is just retarded.  People don't get 40X on their investments at the top of a bubble, and especially not retail investors...

Wed, 06/02/2010 - 13:47 | 389868 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

And you know it's at a peak because...? Technical analysis? Hahahahaha.

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