Utah Pushes To Accept Gold, Silver As Alternative Currency

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Thu, 03/03/2011 - 23:15 | 1017370 drbill
drbill's picture

Gresham's Law!

Who in their right mind would use gold to pay their taxes when you could pay them with paper?

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 23:20 | 1017385 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

That was my first thought... why surrender gold to pay taxes, pay them in their own useless paper! Preserve your wealth in gold and silver. They'll be worth so much more than that down the road.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 23:45 | 1017459 Cyrano de Bivouac
Cyrano de Bivouac's picture

No, the state government could adjust for the depreciation of the dollar- if you owed 2,000$ in taxes you could pay with 1 oz. at 1,400$.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 23:47 | 1017470 Dr. Porkchop
Dr. Porkchop's picture

Better yet, you could offer to pay taxes in unallocated gold certificates.

Sun, 03/20/2011 - 22:37 | 1080420 zaphod
zaphod's picture

+10 brilliant

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 02:29 | 1017742 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Riiiiiiight.  Who gets to choose the basis date for the depreciation?  What if the dollar appreciates sharply?

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

I am Chumbawamba.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 05:18 | 1017855 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture

Joe <3

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 07:00 | 1017909 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

Who is Joe Duncetesticles?

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 05:31 | 1017863 Clampit
Clampit's picture

State governments provide services that are most often cited as evidence of government's necessity.

The bigger question then becomes do state gold valuations necessarily translate into federal valuations? States could finally play central banker to their advantage. Best to be ready for secession, even if only monetary, and I'm glad my state's on the list. That and the patently absurd concept discussed later on of a dormant metal gaining capital.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 06:19 | 1017884 zhandax
zhandax's picture

I can understand Paul's encouragement by a sign that the population at large is not totally fuckin brain dead. However, as mentioned, as long as the state will accept useless Crane cotton for taxes, only a damnfool would use something else. Other than a sign of the above, what purpose does this bill serve? As far as I know, gold and silver coinage was never de-monetized; i.e. it can still be used by someone dumb enough to send a load of double eagles for tax payments at face. Chumbawamba, there is no mention of any adjustment for real value here.  This bill just restates constitutional law. "Full of sound and fury, etc, etc".

I am reminded of the instance last year when the 19 year old at the dry cleaner gave me a 1964 Kennedy in change and apologized for it. When I realized what it was, I asked if she had any more. She had accepted 10 earlier in payment and admitted she thought they may be fake. I offered her $5.00 for the remainder which she eagerly accepted.  Who will train the young morons accepting this 'new' currency?  The price of tungsten double eagle blanks on eBay ready for plating will skyrocket.

The fundamental issue here is not the acceptance of real money....it is the underlying value of same.  Twenty dollars haven't been worth an ounce of crown gold since they were all confiscated to disguise paper's devaluation and it has been downhill since.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 07:14 | 1017914 CH1
CH1's picture

Caesar gets what he earns in voluntary trade... or else he's a criminal... period!

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 08:43 | 1017967 jimijon
jimijon's picture

I minted a coin for that Chumba ... http://www.mundogold.com

cheers

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 11:40 | 1018631 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Hey, nice job ;)

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 12:45 | 1019008 DosZap
DosZap's picture

You still lose your PHYSICAL GOLD.

Never fly.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 23:50 | 1017477 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

fyi, according to some old charts on http://www.chartsrus.com/ gold and silver peaked before the exploitation of the new world: gold at a real (early 90's?) $2400 (?) and silver at a real $800 (?).  may have both bottomed in the last decade or so.  that's an impressive bear market to reverse. 

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 02:12 | 1017720 grok
grok's picture

in an ideal world, wouldn't this make the concept of capital gains on gold obsolete?  If gold is treated as a currency, it IS par, why would you pay gains taxes on it?  Isn't this what we want?  We may not get a backed currency right away, but isn't this a step towards that?

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 07:22 | 1017916 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

A gold back currency is the worst idea I have ever heard of. Whose gold do you think will be backing the currency? Your neighbor's who believes gold is a worthless relic of the past? Giving politicians something of value and expecting them to not cheat the public is a fantasy.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 09:10 | 1018015 buzzard
buzzard's picture

My first thought too... At this point I can't imagine giving any state or municipal government  any silver. Since FRNs aren't worth anything, if you insist on paying them something it would be an easy call in my book. But what do I know?

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 23:22 | 1017389 bankrupt JPM bu...
bankrupt JPM buy silver's picture

ASE are legal tender, this should not be a problem...its constitutional.  But I guess so is printing money so....

 

www.silvergoldsilver.blogspot.com

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 02:13 | 1017723 grok
grok's picture

what is ASE, I assume you mean some kind of bullion.  I think what we have now is that it is legal tender, but only for the face value of the coin.  That's no good.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 02:33 | 1017746 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

American Silver Eagles have a legal tender face value of One Dollar.  Just as pre-mid-1982 US pennies have a legal tender face value of One Cent (bullion value = ~3 cents) and a US nickel has a legal tender face value of Five Cents (bullion value = ~7.3 cents).

For Internal Revenue Service purposes, the value of exactly one ounce of silver or one ounce of gold depends on whether valuing it at face value or bullion value puts more money into the coffers of the government.

I am Chumbawamba.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 08:25 | 1017949 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

ever wonder why they dont make a thousand dollar or ten thousand dollar gold coin, fifty dollar silver eagle?

 

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 12:49 | 1019046 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Correctomundo, before it has a chance it has to have a floating rate scale.

The coinage would have to be be revalued, mixed with cupro/copper, to make them a viable option, and that takes an act of Congress, and the Mint.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 23:34 | 1017423 Misean
Misean's picture

I gotta read the posts before posting.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 23:36 | 1017426 cxl9
cxl9's picture

Perhaps they'll offer a discount.

But seriously, this is just a show of "no confidence" in the dollar, or at least in current dollar monetary policy. It's not like anyone is actually going to pay their taxes in gold.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 02:13 | 1017726 grok
grok's picture

Yep I'm with you there!

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 10:13 | 1018219 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

State governments really have nothing to gain by accepting gold / silver coins because money they take in goes out very quickly before it has a chance to appreciate in value (gold / silver coins) or depreciate in value (dollars).

This assumes gold / silver coins are valued at current spot price for gold / silver, not face value.  If accepted merely at face value they gain trmendously, but who would accept mere face value for their gold / silver coins?

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 03:04 | 1017776 hugolp
hugolp's picture

Gresham's Law only applies if there is an artificial mandated price between the currencies. If they freely float then its not an issue.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 03:24 | 1017794 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Every transaction that occurs in PM's further legitimizes their use as both a money and a currency. This would allow citizens to convert their fiat to PM's earlier - since they can pay their state taxes with it. Shopkeepers will be more willing to accept PM's for the same reasons. Increasing the uses for gold helps it's value. Hoarding it does not. Making it a money of the few hurts it's value and it's usefulness. Velocity matters.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 03:57 | 1017810 strannick
strannick's picture

Exactly. Paper back to the paper pushers and save your metal for stuff you need, to get from people who know value

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 05:16 | 1017854 samlowrey
samlowrey's picture

Exactly!

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 08:21 | 1017945 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

i want to see a proposal to pay PEOPle who work for government in gold

ditto your thought on paying them in gold

 

people=public employees...not "representatives"

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 09:18 | 1018032 tmosley
tmosley's picture

A bill "allowing" payment in gold is the first step toward a bill "requiring" payment in gold.  

That is how you force gold to circulate in a hurry.  It is NOT a violation of Gresham's Law, but a repudiation of the bad currency.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 12:58 | 1019089 DosZap
DosZap's picture

This would turn out very badly.For us.

It would result in confiscation.Unless the Gv't revalued gold on hand to meet currency in circulation, and coupled only be used in the states.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 11:41 | 1018645 chopper read
chopper read's picture

Blythe Masters is melting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7GJcKuVGm8

Sat, 03/05/2011 - 15:11 | 1022164 Windemup
Windemup's picture

As the rains return to the midwest US.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 23:14 | 1017371 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

This demeans my people and should not be pursued.

-Eric Holder

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 02:36 | 1017750 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Ya gotta call a spade a spade.

I am Chumbawamba.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 13:05 | 1019095 DosZap
DosZap's picture

Eric Holder should be a trash collecter....racist bastard.

Whats this MY PEOPLE shit?, whites say that and are skewered,MY PEOPLE means Blacks are different than other  Americans.

Either your an American or your  COLOR doesn't matter.

ANYMORE.

We need a National Association of Caucasian Folks, and a Miss White America, a White America College Fund.

This one sided shit is way past OLD.

Time to get EQUAL RIGHTS.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 23:16 | 1017373 stoneman sacked
stoneman sacked's picture

Pay taxes in gold! I had a hearty laugh. It is like the matrix. Just another system of control

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 00:59 | 1017626 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

Ha, ha, ha, that was very funny! But it doesn't make any sense. If I store most of my savings in PMs and my 2010 tax amounts to say 14K, now I could pay my tax bill with with 10oz of gold (a good deal as I paid only 12K for it last year). This makes perfect sense also because as a result more people would buy/invest in physical.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 02:43 | 1017754 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Your gains would be higher if you didn't have to pay sales tax on each of your purchases because they would almost all likely be below $1,500, and being able to deduct it after the fact is little consolation.  You still lost that gain to a bullshit tax.

But otherwise, yes, it does make sense to invest in gold, then sell some when you need to pay your taxes, if the government would let you do that, but they don't, because they either take their tithe from every one of your paychecks, or they require you to file and pay quarterly if you're self-employed.  So either way you don't really get to reap the true gains you might have otherwise if you could just pay at the end of the year and keep your money in gold until your liability is due.  Sorry, nope, you naive slave.  Your money is THEIR money, and then you get what's left over.

Pop Quiz: how did it come to be that people who are self-employed and not incorporated are required to pay the federal income tax?

I am Chumbawamba.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 04:58 | 1017834 hound dog vigilante
hound dog vigilante's picture

Both of you are missing the real point(s) of this bill/news. This is a re-assertion of states rights, for one, and it legitimizes PMs as a medium of exchange. Gold and silver - sanctioned at the state-level in direct defiance of the Fed and federalism. More baby steps like this, and before you know it we'll be re-building this country's economy from the bottom up.

 

Paying your taxes with PMs may or may not be a wise move... personally I would rather unload evaporating FRNs on the state and keep my PM. But these are insignificant details relative to the massive shift towards local/personal sovereignty that bills like this one truly represent. This bill's not forcing anyone to pay their taxes w/ PMs. Rather, from between the lines of this bill a clear message is sent, "the state of Utah recognizes that FRNs are toilet paper." Yeah, most taxes are unconstutional - I get it. But let's not stand still for fear that our strides be to short.

Federalism, Corporatism, Socialism... all are under attack, at long last. I couldn't be happier. I look around and i see people taking action at the local & personal level, and in some areas this activism is trickling-up to state politics. Fantastic. Some people think this is 'doom and gloom' or extremist or whatever. I think its progress. I think its rational. May we see more of it.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 05:42 | 1017870 J_Perkins
J_Perkins's picture

Amen

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 11:44 | 1018654 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Eh.  If they want to make a statement then don't obfuscate it by linking it to payment of taxes (of all fucking things).  I would prefer if our so-called "statesmen" act like it and stop trying to hide whatever message they're trying to make behind stupid bills that will ultimately serve to just make the ignorant people scoff.

I am Chumbawamba.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 07:54 | 1017927 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

Don't ask questions like that pop quiz.

It makes the Federales nervous.

 

 

<HELP> for explanation

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 10:46 | 1018298 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

Pop Quiz: how did it come to be that people who are self-employed and not incorporated are required to pay the federal income tax?

That's easy.  They have a social security number (federal government ID number), making them a wholly owned subject (slave) of the federal government.

Same thing when you get a license plate with a state-issued registration number on it (state government ID number) for your vehicle.  You just transfered ownership of your vehicle to the state.  They own it now.

I'm surprised so few people here know these things.  Cops certainly know it.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 13:07 | 1019141 DosZap
DosZap's picture

You didn't pay taxes on our gains?.
IRS got a 1099 from who you bought it from, if a dealer.

Sat, 03/05/2011 - 01:05 | 1021497 oygevalt
oygevalt's picture

Please see here for some clarification re the 1099 issue: www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1099msc.pdf.  It may clear up some common questions.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 23:17 | 1017374 tired1
tired1's picture

Another Fort Sumpter?

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