A Visual Presentation Of What Happens To The Market During Rising Interest Rate Cycles

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Sat, 04/02/2011 - 12:00 | 1127885 Motorhead
Motorhead's picture

Silver, bitchez!

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 12:24 | 1127918 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Silver = Bubble 

 

1920 - $1.37

1947 - $0.60

1963 - $1.29

1968 - $2.56

1971 - $1.27

1974 - $6.70

January 21,1980 - $48.00

March 28, 1980 - $11.10

1982 - $4.88

1985 - $6.50

1989 - $6.00

1991 - $4.60

1995 - $6.10

2001 - $4.50

2005 - $7.50

2007 - $12.00

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 12:35 | 1127935 mberry8870
mberry8870's picture

If this is accurate how does one junk this?

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 12:38 | 1127940 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

It's not uncommon for unpopular opinions to be junked in these here parts.  Even if the table is accurate, it might not support the opinion expressed above.

Silver in a bubble is a pretty silly idea, if you ask me, but I don't bother junking SS 'cause my bet is he's more troll than thinker.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 15:41 | 1128314 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

so how are these figures supposed to denote a bubble?

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 17:41 | 1128531 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

A "technical" trader who looks solely at lines based on changes in nominal pricing can apparently divine bubbles with a straightedge and a pen. 

Things like supply, demand, market disruption, changes in monetary supply are not ever relevant considerations.  It's a question of augury and faith.

Sun, 04/03/2011 - 00:59 | 1129251 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

faith, I like that. It's the ability to believe something despite the facts isn't it?

definite bubble then, long live silver, and long may it rise...

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 12:39 | 1127941 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Accurate down to the penny and dates ....

 

The junkers are mindless fools ..... They should turnoff mash re-runs and study up on things they invest in.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 13:02 | 1127994 Rainman
Rainman's picture

The 1980 high was a result of Hunt Brothers cornering manipulations. Surely there could be no such manipulation in SLV today !! ;>)

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 14:28 | 1128084 asdasmos
asdasmos's picture

@Spalding, could you please put up a historic dollar chart since 1913 as well, so we can contrast the silver gains please.

edit: I found one, is this accurate to you?
http://buyinggoldcoins.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/graph-declinein-do...

Maybe silver's gain has been 'backlogged' or 'manipulated' during the US $ decline, but that would never happen, right?

Dollar history.

1913 - $1.00
1920 - $2.02
1925 - $1.77
1930 - $1.69
1935 - $1.38
1940 - $1.41
1945 - $1.82
1950 - $2.43
1955 - $2.71
1960 - $2.99
1965 - $3.18
1970 - $3.92
1975 - $5.43
1980 - $8.32
1985 - $10.87
1990 - $13.20
1995 - $15.39
2000 - $17.39
2001 - $17.89
2002 - $18.17
2003 - $18.59
2004 - $19.08
2005 - $19.73
2006 - $20.18
2007 - $20.94 2
2008 - $21.57

etc......

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 14:32 | 1128182 akak
akak's picture

And as bad and as damning as those figures are, they are lowballed by using the US government's politically-manipulated CPI figures, which understate the true extent of the ongoing depreciation of the US dollar.  A more realistic value for the multiple in the rise in prices from 1913 to today would probably be much closer to 30.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 14:36 | 1128187 asdasmos
asdasmos's picture

Agreed, I was just about to edit in '(roughly)' next to 'Dollar history'. There are many estimates that are even higher that I agree with more, but even the conservative ones are damning.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 16:34 | 1128368 hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

This is an interesting discussion, boils down to what is the "true inflation" number.  The MIT and shadow stat indicatethat the decoupling on the CPI to "real inflation" started to happen in 1983 and has progressively widened since that time. 

*edit, erased bone headed math error

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 16:43 | 1128417 akak
akak's picture

To be honest, I feel that John William's ShadowStats somewhat overstate the real rate of "inflation" --- which we really should call by its true name, currency depreciation --- but his rate is obviously closer to reality than the manipulated, and currently surreal, figures put out by the Bureau of Labor Bullshit Statistics.

Sun, 04/03/2011 - 00:24 | 1129207 LudwigVon
LudwigVon's picture

Love ya akak. I agree with what you say in theory, let me just make a few comments on semantics so others can learn to decipher the MSM and other spin... 

Inflation = Increase in the quantity of money...

which leads to what John Williams speaks about = Price Inflation

(or) currency depreciating, but against what?

Dollar might be rising against real estate...

The process of inflation creates currency depreciation versus many assets, unevenly.

What I find 100% accurate is that we are seeing Inflation (NY Fed POMO schedule is about as hard of proof as it gets) in a deflationary environment (scary idea).

;)

 

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 15:48 | 1128313 hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

Hummm..

Interesting

            Silver                                     Dollar

1920      1.37                                        2.02

1947      0.60                                        1.82

1963      1.29                                        2.99

1968      2.56                                        3.18

1971      1.27                                        3.92

1974      6.70                                        5.43

1980     48.00                                       8.32

1980     11.10

1985       6.50                                     10.87

1991       4.60

1995       6.10                                     15.39

2001       4.50                                     17.89

2005       7.50                                     19.73

2007      12.00                                    20.93

*didn't verify accuracy of numbers provided by others in blog

Sun, 04/03/2011 - 01:00 | 1129255 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

now why go and spoil a good story for the sake of a few facts, and figures...

Sun, 04/03/2011 - 03:16 | 1129378 savagegoose
savagegoose's picture

so 2001 was the best time ot buy silver with greatest devalued dollar vs lowest silver price

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 13:44 | 1128085 malikai
malikai's picture

Its not entirely clear what was happening with the Hunt's "cornering". What is clear is that there is far more to the story than meets the eye.

The Hunts seem to have began by hedging inflation (wise move in the 70s). Later, they got ahead of themselves and they were crushed by the machine. They became vulnerable by using too much margin, and this is where they lost the plot. Their financier banks knew what they were doing and let them have their way for a while; until they didn't. When the CFTC being only slightly less captured then as they are today hiked margins, the Hunts got cut to pieces and the so-called bubble burst. These are just my observations.

The entire silver complex could be busted today as well, if there are too many large hands unhedged or improperly hedged on margin. But I don't think it would last very long because once the currency is fully debauched, there is nowhere else to go but hard stuff, including silver.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 13:55 | 1128116 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

average price of cars

 

1912 = $240

2012 = $27,000

 

car prices must be in a bubble and will soon come crashing down to $240 again

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 14:50 | 1128207 r101958
r101958's picture

Excellent. Great analogy!

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 16:28 | 1128400 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

KingWorldNews has some outstanding guests this week. 

 

Listen to Rob Arnotthttp://www.kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2011/4/1_Rob_Arnott.html

 (He is a mainstream financial guy – been a guest on all the MSM outlets.  Graham & Dodd award winner.  Advises some of the biggest funds in the world, PIMCO, etc.  He tells it the way it is.  Disgusted with what he's seeing.  Says what the Fed is doing is BS.)

 

 

Then listen to James Turkhttp://www.kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2011/4/2_James_Turk.html

 (Great insight into how the currencies and metals are behaving.  After a recent impressive 40% rise, silver is still strongly in backwardation.  This has never happened before in history.  Turk is watching gold carefully.  Says if gold goes into backwardation, which has never happened before, the US Dollar is toast.  Means people have completely lost a faith and confidence in the dollar.) 

The other KWN interviews are good but these two are superb.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 18:14 | 1128609 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

Thanks, that was worthwhile.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 18:19 | 1128620 turfmac
turfmac's picture

well said, rite on right on!

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 20:08 | 1128814 SamuelMaverick
SamuelMaverick's picture

Two problems with the chart, one the prices are not adjusted for inflation, and two the cause of the recent ten year run up secular bull market in gold and silver are not taken into account. Silver is not in a bubble, and the forces driving it's rise are numerous.  Just looking at the St Louis Fed chart on M2 is enuf to make you run to a Precious metal dealer.    Yours, Maverick

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 12:39 | 1127942 atlee
atlee's picture

QE Bitches! Where ya been?

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 12:39 | 1127946 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Silver is not in a bubble.  The dollar is.

But our delivery/shoeshine boy here is totally ignorant of basically every factor driving the economy, so his worldview is just about 100% upside down.

This is why he thinks delivery driving is a growth industry, even with diesel prices breaching never before breached barriers this early in the season.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 12:43 | 1127954 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Nice non-answer, just more personal attacks to distract from said historical facts on silver, just face the facts, pimp ... 90 years worth of silver prices.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 13:26 | 1128043 Silversinner
Silversinner's picture

In the 14th century silver was valued at $800+,

soon this price target will be broken.

 

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 14:50 | 1128183 akak
akak's picture

Coincidentally, that was just before the goldsmiths and their bankster buddies started playing with paper money and fractional-reserve Ponzi schemes.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 13:37 | 1128064 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

hamburgers = bubble 

 

big mac 1967 = 45 cents

big mac today = $4.00

 

big mac prices will go crashing down to 45 cents soon

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 13:48 | 1128094 malikai
malikai's picture

Stop. Doctor says I'm not supposed to laugh like that.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 16:28 | 1128406 Anonymouse
Anonymouse's picture

I distinctly remember an old McDonald's commercial from when I was young, probably from the early 70s.  It had a stereotypical rich man (mahogany paneling and all) being delivered a hamburger, fries, and soda on a silver tray.  Then the butler giving him the change remaining from the $1 he had paid.

 

Of course, back then, McDonald's food was delivered fast, the stores were clean, and the people were friendly.

 

And we had to walk to school in the snow. All year long. Uphill.  Both ways.

 

</geezer>

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 13:49 | 1128075 asdasmos
asdasmos's picture

.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 13:44 | 1128079 agNau
agNau's picture

How about supply/demand figures to go along with those highly accurate numbers? Is there any difference through the historical progression, regards supply? Supply/demand issues are driving grains through the roof.(as well inflationary pressure from too many dollars supply) Until the Bernank waved his magic wand tulips were a dime a dozen. Remember their scarcity drove their price until the supply burst that bubble. We know how long new mines take. There is now increasing demand, for an asset in decreasing supply, that is seen increasingly as a store of value, and protector of wealth. Think I'll buy more.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 22:35 | 1129078 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

You face the facts pee-boy.. 6,000 years of PM's representing the labor and lives required to pull them from the ground and then valued as a rare and truely stand alone marker of wealth.  The dollar is toast, whoever pays yo u to post this crap knows it.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 17:38 | 1128526 bothsidesnow
bothsidesnow's picture

Well what is a bubble? I believe it is when a large percentage of global capital is allocated to one asset class. However, if you do the research less than 1% of available global capital is invested in the PM asset class (PM and PM mining stocks). I don't believe that is a bubble based on my definition of a bubble. If global capital allocations to the PM increase by 1% theoretically the price of PM will double and in my opinion a bubble still would not exist. So the projections of gold at 5k-6k and silver at $200 are realistic if 5% of global capital is allocated to the PM asset class and at that point a bubble still does not exist IMO.

I believe that large institutional investors will begin to increase their asset allocation to PM and other commodities as the prospect for real resource shortages become more apparent i.e. oil, corn, soybeans, wheat, etc. The simple fact is that we have experienced rapid population growth that is pressuring the ability of supply to keep up with demand for goods that sustain humans.

IMO there are two ways to get yours. Print more money and buy them thereby driving up the price as we see happening right now or forcefully take them. The US is doing both because we have the printing press and the military. I don't see this strategy ending any time soon and in fact it will only intensify and create a positive feedback loop in the price of commodities.

 

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 12:52 | 1127969 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Actually I think 4.06 was the low in 2001.

And saying Spalding is total douchebag is very accurate as well.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 12:58 | 1127982 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Get ready for that crow soup ....

Notice that price drop in the 80's, over 60% in a few months .... enjoy.

Notice that 90 year average.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 13:30 | 1128050 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Maybe if you spent some time actually educating yourself on PM's you would be taken seriously around here. Denial is no way to live brother... 

http://www.caseyresearch.com/gsd/home

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 14:52 | 1128188 akak
akak's picture

You are assuming that Snails wants an honest education, and to participate in a sincere and honest discussion, instead of indulging in what is clearly his real mission here, which is to spread disinformation and outright lies regarding the value of holding precious metals during a time of fiat monetary collapse such as we are in today.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 15:37 | 1128301 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Ah Spalding, we've answered this one last week. You ignored it if I remember correctly.

It appears you have nothing to say except the same thing over and over and over and over and over...

It's boring now...

You seem desperate to get people out of silver. What gives?

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 17:46 | 1128324 akak
akak's picture

It appears you have nothing to say except the same thing over and over and over and over and over...

It's boring now...

Such is the way of dishonest and disingenuous trolls --- it is their Tao.  We saw the exact same nonsensical repetition of half-truths and outright lies from the former troll JohnnyBravo/MasterBates regarding gold.

You implicitly assume that they are here to engage in open and sincere discussion, using logic and facts and history to make their case.  How naive!  Do you not see that they have an agenda to peddle --- or more to the point, that they willingly serve some power with an agenda to peddle?

Sun, 04/03/2011 - 01:06 | 1129261 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

'You implicitly assume that they are here to engage in open and sincere discussion, using logic and facts and history to make their case'

not so, fact is every dog's allowed one bite, and he just had his.

You have to give someone the chance to fail before you can say that they failed. and Spalding failed.

Now he gets ignored...

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 13:44 | 1128086 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

Maybe they're junking his opinion and not the data? Duh

worker pay = bubble

avg annual household income 1912 = $750

avg annual household income 2012 = $50,233

 

Therefore, the average pay of Americans will soon crash to $750 per year and we'll all starve to death. The numbers I posted were accurate, therefore, my conclusions must be accurate.

Sun, 04/03/2011 - 20:18 | 1130803 AndyR
AndyR's picture

**Therefore, the average pay of Americans will soon crash to $750 per year and we'll all starve to death. The numbers I posted were accurate, therefore, my conclusions must be accurate.**

 

Unfortunetly, your conclusions might be accurate...

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 12:43 | 1127952 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

Bread in 1920 cost 3 cents. That same loaf of bread now costs $1.30. What is your point?

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 12:48 | 1127959 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

What was bread in 2001 when silver was below $5.00 along its historic trend line.

Also I buy bread for $0.85 ....

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 13:06 | 1127999 emsolý
emsolý's picture

you know you can always just sell short silver if you think it's a bubble and want to put your money where your mouth is. I'm 100% confident you'll find a buyer in 15mins.

Sat, 04/02/2011 - 13:45 | 1128090 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

I thought you were basing your conclusions on 90 years of data. Now you want to shorten it to 10 years of data? The old bait and switch. Try selling some snake oil next time.

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