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Warren Buffett To Endorse Speculative Trading Regulation
The fight against HFT, and intraday speculation just got serious. According to the WSJ, Warren Buffett, together with John Bogle and 25 others, have endorsed a petition that focusing on speculative stock gains "hurts the economy and may require regulation." From the statement:
"We believe that short-term objectives have eroded faith in
corporations continuing to be the foundation of the American free
enterprise system, which has been, in turn, the foundation of our
economy."
Some proposals endorsed by Buffett et al:
To encourage investors to take the long view, the statement suggests
that the government could change the tax-code to reward long-term
holders over short-term holders – by, for example, setting capital
gains tax rates that get gradually lower the longer an investor hangs
on to a companies shares. Additionally, fund managers should act in the
long-term interests of the investors whose money they manage –
something that, the statement argues, fiduciary duty stipulates they
do. Finally, activist investors who take large stakes in a company
should be required to disclose when they have entered into derivative
contracts to hedge away risk.
Of course, proponents of all things angelic brought to you compliments of some 1,000,000 shares a second HFT algo, will, as always, scream against this proposal, and retort with the usual defense that no matter how many million dollars one stock of Citigroup may cost, the precious, precious liquidity would simply go away if anyone dared to tax away even one microcent of HFT's winnings.
Yet, for the good of this country, the opinions of investment luminaries such as Buffett may hold a little more sway in the grand scheme of things.
Zero Hedge is eagerly looking to perusing the entire statement.
h/t Joe
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John Boggle, inventor of the game that bears his name...
Ha!
This coming from a guy who gets better deals on stock/option transactions than ANY retail investor. How bout' enacting some curbs on his special deals.
Seeing as we are on the topic of "fairness"
I wish Goldman Sachs would give me an implicit guarantee of at least 10%. Seems "fair" to me.
BTW - Any stock transaction is speculative whether it be long/short term. It wouldn't appear fair to me to favor one type of investor over another. If the issue is flash orders than ban that type of trading if it is infact being used to frontrun other investors.
+1
Not interested in new tax schemes. Unplug their co-located servers and call it a day.
/signed
Buffet gets better deals because he can negotiate directly with the companies he invests in, and holds meaningful voting shares. Whether he makes or loses money is still related to the fundamental value of the company since he is a long term holder, and therefore there is no conflict of interest with any regular shareholder. They will make or lose money together. Also, Buffets injection of capital supposedly helped Goldman Sachs to create more value to stockholders (and if it wasn't GS I was taliking about I would say the economy in general as well). This type of unequal deal is completely different than HFT on both points, and is not a problem. Holders of the common of companies that Buffet has invested in have earned great returns so it would seem that he is a benefit, if anything, to the regular investors.
Also it is worthy of note that he is taking a stance against a major source of revenue for one of his investments.
Warren took advantage of the taxpayer bailout of the financial system. Without the bailout he would have lost his entire investment (so he was speculating the taxpayer would have GS's back via it's own recapitalization through the taxpayer but also through it's proxy bailout through AIG)
Buffet was not looking out for the shareholder value of GS or anyone other than himself.
Eventhough Warren has that persona that makes you want to sit on his knee at Christmas time he is the same as any other shady character on WS only looking out for himself.
yup
This is true.
Bingo PDM, his carefully crafted "Uncle Warren" image is so much BS. Warren is an elitist pigman just like the rest of the pigmen.
Who buys this? At 97 grand a share, it ain't Mom and Pop.
BRK.A - Berkshire Hathaway Inc. (NYSE) - 97560.00
When Warren dies or becomes senial (which is something I wish on no man) but will evetually happen given his age BRK.A won't be trading at that price.
You might in fact be senial, or your keyboard is drunk.....
Could be both...
Conceded that he is out for himself, and that this bet had nothing to do with enhancing the value of GS. However, the bet he made on the government support is one that could have been made by any investor by buying the common, whereas the ability to make profits by executing trades in a few milliseconds is confined to a few firms that have the ability to engage in HFT. So it is still a seperate issue.
"However, the bet he made on the government support is one that could have been made by any investor by buying the common"
WRONG
He had GUARNTEED 10% No matter what (and got a cheaper price) PLUS warrants PLUS callable preferred shares. The return in % terms is one that HFT would have a hard time competing with (and on the heels of the taxpayer)
He was the ONLY one who could have gotten a deal like that.
Oh....And to fund that deal he sold a huge chunk of J&J (while he was telling people to buy)
The fact that Buffet has the vast amounts of capital to deploy in order to get such a deal is not at issue. This deal was transparent unlike HFT. Everyone knew the terms and what was going on (unlike the hapless counterparties of the HFT's). Any investor with a lot of money will get a better deal.
Same applies in an IPO or any stock offering. The arrangers and bookrunners will get the shares at a discount since they can front the capital. But the fact remains that anyone could place a bet on the same thing he was, though they would earn a smaller return, as is the case with any small investor against a large one. This is inevitable, but everyone in the market has access to this information.
As for the J&J thing, the man is no saint, but I refer you to the ZH "(non)policy on conflicts/full disclosure." it is everyone's job to scrutinize information given to them. This is something that could be done with Buffet's trades, but not in the case of trading in the market against HFT, Dark Pools and such, these things can't be easily seen and analysed.
The topic of conversation is becoming diluted.
The only point I am making is that the pot should not call the kettle black.
Warren is a shrewd businessman and icon. He makes some outstanding investments and respect to him for acheiving the level of success that he has. I'm not talking shit on how he does business but when he's living in a glass house he shouldn't throw stones.
I'm having trouble figuring out why he would do so when he owns a significant portion of the aforementioned kettle, though. Guess only he knows the answer to that.
As long as we are operating under "mark-to-make believe" he will make money while not looking like a scum bag. He's playing the "I'm helping the retail investor" tip.
Whatever makes him hard.
Kettle that Warren owns will be exempt one way or another. Simply eliminates competition.
So you're saying he benefits from short-term actions? Then why is he acting to put a stop to those things he benefits from?
I think he's saying "this market drives short-term behavior. let's change it so it drives long-term behavior, for all participants", including himself.
I suspect you're talking your book, as most will in this argument. Personally, I trade futures and CFD's, and I invest. But I would prefer a market that is more sane, and the current one isn't that. If I lost the ability to trade but we ended up with a rational market, I'm keen.
" If I lost the ability to trade but we ended up with a rational market, I'm keen."
Good luck with your "rational market" hypothesis.
Oh...and my book speaks for itself.
Buffet's salary isn't that large. His wealth is mostly in the stock of the company so buying a share of Berkshire would have given the average Joe the profits too.
Buffett, total has been, shouldn't have given all that money away so fast, he's gonna need it. COP? Moody's?? Now in bed with the bad guys at GS?
I liked him better when he was milking the textile mill for all it was worth.
US citizens were in direct negotiation with GS as well and ended up with a much worse deal. Not only that, but without US citizens being committed against their will his investment would be worthless and likely brk as well. Buffett is being revealed as one of the biggest backroom dealing crooks out there during this breakdown to anyone who has their eyes open and can block out the constant media kissing. He did plenty of shorter term trading as well to get to where he is in contrast to popular opinion. What stops him now is impracticality.
True dat.
Link With GS-Buffet-Paulson Deal
Any stock transaction is speculative?
Not if you're primarily interested in dividends - you know, money you get from the business you own. You may argue that you're "speculating" on the expected div yield but aside from word games, it's a far cry from what the market has become. It hasn't had much relation to real investing in a long time. Mainly because people would rather force more money into fewer companies in the hope they can jump off the bandwagon before it crashes, than actually allocate capital in a way that makes sense.
Stick a fork in this market. There are massive stock offering being announced after the bell.
http://capitalobserver.blogspot.com/2009/09/holy-offerings.html
thanks for the link....nice blog, in my favorites.
Mr. Buffett: Of all people, you know better than most about the economic and financial problems that blogs like ZeroHedge bring to the forefront. How about spending your remaining years being a true American hero and really railing against those who are destroying a system that you along with most of us love?
Thank you for your consideration.
He doesn't love capitalism. His father Howard did, though.
Warren has only his own interests in mind no doubt. Quite a few long term holdings he'd like to book tax free. Also, you can be sure that broker/dealers any others with pull will be exempt from such taxes one way or another.
Warren throws out some tax meat, hopes legislators rabidly pounce. It's not a solution, just a tax break for Mr. Buy and Hold Forever.
THIS IS JUST BUFFETT TALKING HIS BOOK!!
I love speculation.
Buffett has no loyality to his country or his countrymen.
Animal Farm - Some animals are more equal than others.
Paraphrased
Buffett tells the New York Times:
Graham Bowley gives us an overview of how Buffett has taken advantage of the troubled times, noting "few people on or off Wall Street have capitalized on this crisis as deftly" as he has.
Damn Buffett, always happy to endorse taxation.
He's so arrogant, implicitly blaming short-term speculators for the crash that he didn't see coming and actually bet against by writing puts.
Gotta love these mega rich people who endorse brutal taxes after they've already made their nut. See if you can go one day paying attention to mainstream print and media coverage without hearing that guy's name. The media collectively probably don't realize that the general public has had enough Buffett stories. Give it a rest; no one gives a crap anymore. Guy is living off his rep from thirty years ago.
oooohhhh!!! If WARREN says so... (an awed hush... silences all)
The only long is for my wife. Short is the game ad infintum. The lemmons must of changed direction, how observant the world has become and this is just the second inning.
Warren Buffets Grandaughter (shortly before getting dis-OWNED) by Uncle Warren.
"I've been very blessed to have my education taken care of, and I have had my living expenses taken care of while I'm in school," says Nicole Buffett in the film. But when asked in the film how she thought her grandfather Warren Buffett would react to her appearance in it, she said, "I definitely fear judgment. Money is the spoke in my grandfather's wheel of life."
A month after she appeared in the film, Warren Buffett mailed her a letter in which he wrote: "I have not emotionally or legally adopted you as a grandchild, nor have the rest of my family adopted you as a niece or a cousin." Ouch.
With the help of Jamie Johnson, Nicole attempted to repair the damage. To that end, Johnson filmed a follow up interview with Nicole in which she stated the following: "To pretend like we don't have a familial relationship is not based in reality. I've spent years of my life at his home in Omaha. I'm shocked and hurt." This attempt at a reconciliation, however, was unsuccessful.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1313844/nicole_buffett_disowned_by_billionaire.html
There it is. When it comes down to Warren its about money. He could care less about fairness or integrity in the system (unless it benefits him - than it's ok ;))
And the real lesson here. If you have a billionaire in your family - -----Don't be talkin' shit son.
Proceed to page 2 of the linked article:
"Especially when you consider the fact that Warren Buffett refers to inherited wealth as "the ovarian lottery." Warren Buffett has made it a rule to pay for the college education of each of his grandchildren - whether they are blood relatives or not - but nothing more." [emphasis added]
Not to say he's a great guy, and his comments to her in this case were particularly cold, but he is being consistent with his stated principles.
My point was that an off color (though true as it was) comment resulted in him disowning a family member.
You can see where he places family in relation to money. Money first.
My point was simply that his granddaughter wouldn't have received any more money anyway. I think you are correct about his priorities.
It depends on how you define "family member". Warren's son Peter married Nicole's mother (Mary) when Nicole was 4. Peter and Mary were divorced over a decade ago. However, Mary has kept the Buffett name and traded on it by writing a book on Buffett's investing.
Buffett paid for Nicole's education until she was 28 even though he has rarely seen her since she was 11. His wife Suzie left Nicole $100K in her will, the same as she left her other grandchildren. It appears to me that she tried to publicly shake him down. I don't blame him for cutting her off.
Good for her. She spoke her Truth and got her Consequences. Money without Love is toxic to the spirit. Entitlement to anything but freedom to choose where you put your efforts and be rewarded for personal initiative is what we fought our Revolution for and against entitlement. Warren still hasn't gotten over himself; blinded by the media lights. He might get there someday when he puts his effort into giving back rather than dumping it on Gates as if it were equivalent to his needed unique effort.
Mofos like GS hardly pay any tax at all, what would they care about this new sliding tax scheme; they will just hide their cap gains someplace else.
Everyone is playing a little game here now that the rule book is open for changes. They will fight for the change that enriches them but the sad part is the rule book isn't being applied at all, from what we've seen here there is front running (illegal) and collusion (illegal). No one wants to step up and enforce existing rules, they just want to re-rig the rules to give them a better edge. Crisis is opportunity.
As panda says he's talking his book.
You're ready to jump into bed with some unlikely partners TD. First Schumer, now Buffet.
It seems that anyone who says HFT "bad" is your buddy. I get the enemy of my enemy concept, but going gaga over Buffet and Boggle and others who "may hold a little more sway in the grand scheme of things" is bound to end badly for you.
I'd expect you, of all people. to be extremely skeptical of their motives, even if their aim is to harm your arch foe HFTs. A little more of your trademark scathing sarcasm rather than a drooling hard on is called for with this story.
Buffets public relations hedge against his evil GS et al holdings.
How much did this hedge cost? nothing? Pretty good deal.
Judging by the reaction of the peanut gallery To his post about Buffett and Bogle, TD now realizes that he had created a monster.
The tax code already penalizes short term capital gains relative to long term.
Is the old goat lobbying for even more favorable tax treatment for long term holders than they already have?
Besides, he claims his optimal holding period is "forever", so why does he care about capital gains tax rates?
Holding an investment for a shorter time period than filthy rich uncle Warren and Bogle feels appropriate is less virtuous! Didn't you know that. They know better than you so you should be financially punished for not doing what they deam correct. Fall in line!
Warren might be terrified the shorts will kick his WFC ass soon.
FAS 157 can't go on forever. Or could it ??
At this point in the recession, I suggest many people would agree that this kind of advice from powerful insiders sounds like putting lipstick on a pig.
The issue IS THE GOVERNMENT.
One small move would clean up the whole banking system; get rid of the FED. The banks' addiction to risk and leverage will end the next day.
Buffett = The Architect
It's like satan weighing in on murder...
Buffett is a self-serving weasle.
The #1 which would encourage long term holds would be to eliminate all taxes on dividends, subject to a per-payee threshold of $100k, indexed to inflation. In other words, all your dividend income, up to 4100k per person would be tax free. Do that and investors would DEMAND stable dividend streams from their stocks. Stocks which paid nice dividends would become too precious to sell. This would reduce the supply of available shares for the HFT crowd. Also, restrick mutual funds and custodians from lending to shorts and block all naked shorting. Alas, greedy slobs like Buffett DEMAND deividends for themselves, but they don't pay any....
Here it is....
There should be no taxes on any securities....as taxes just take away from efficient capital....
What the US needs is a dramatic downsizing in govt. period....if for anything else would be to get out of the economy's way....
At the moment ....the govt. has ponied costs....including those given to Buffett via GS,,WFC stock....to the tune of several $trillion on the backs of America's great grandchildren from this day forward....
The most efficient capital attracts the best companies to the US domicile....along with the jobs....and allows for a sustainable, competitive edge that the BRIC countries do not want to have to match....however BRIC is more than happy to match off labor and legal largesse....
Furthermore...the exchanges should go through price discovery only on a direct electronic access whereby securities transfer costs are negligible for all players....all first come first served no matter what the size....all private means of discovery have to go....
Sorry but Bogle and Buffett got this one dead wrong....And this is one time whereby small players can get the price they see...whereas big size would be a disadvantage....
The market needs lots of small players....not just a few big names that can pull the rug out from under prices....
Also big size means that it covers the lower realized price that will inevitably happen when large size has to move....
If anything....Buffett and Bogle models are obsolete in today's marketplace....
Time to move on....and away from the politicos and old horses....and this time ....get it right....
NO TAXES OF ANY KIND ON ANY SECURITY....NOT EVER....
Hear, hear!
For Buffet to endorse higher taxes on short-term investment profits rubs me the wrong way. Taxes already distort and poison the "when to sell" decision, often persuading long-term holders to not sell when they should, distorting the natural market. Buffett should instead focus on making the tax code fair: most unfair of all is that investment gains are not indexed to inflation. If he endorsed this, we would have better markets, and he would accomplish more in the way of reducing the real tax rate on long term holdings than imposing punitive taxes on short-term profits accomplishes.
If getting rid of HFT is his goal, doing this via a tax is an awful approach. How about bringing back 1/8 pt bid ask spreads instead?
+1 on indexing investment gains to inflation. Thank you.
String up the old coot.
LSE....breaking news....
LOVES HFT....
THE SIGN OF THE FUTURE....
NOT THE BUFFETT/BOGLE OLD DOG PAST....
http://www.rttnews.com/ArticleView.aspx?Id=1059482&Category=Breaking%20News
Do some research on how Buffett has set up his firms to avoid taxes and you will understand why he wants everyone short term to pay higher cap gains. He would likely duck much of the increase, and this kind of law would eliminate tons of his competition.
Also, cant wait to see the performance of longer term funds get crushed by a tax change like this. No one wins. HFT go broke, intermediate traders almost all go broke/leave the biz, and longer term players have worse performance as they hold stocks longer than they think they should due to new taxes. Further, 50% of the volume will disappear and executing brokers will have to increase their charges. In the end, mom and pop will gain nothing, and you will have tons more unemployed people.
Think it through, this is a bad call in the long run. Better to just put a min time frame of several seconds on all orders, ban flash, ban dark pools, and ban liquidity credits.
moronic,
this is just like the mutual funds who called for an end to floor trading on the NYSE in the hopes of getting 'better' executions from all-electronic markets and 'dark pools'. Instead, they got a vampire squid and more volatility.
sure, let's decrease liquidity some more, why don't we? let's drive all the speculators out of the market. it'll be just like... onion futures.
i've got a brilliant idea. why don't we just let everyone trade by the same rules?
I think faith in corporations should have ended long time ago,the moment Jack Welsh managed to have his bar bill paid by GE. Still more with the likes of Mozillo(isn't that a browser?)and Fuld gobbling up to the tune of half a billion each while their companies go bankrupt. What is this guy talking about?Does he honestly think that people still have faith in ceo's who are more worried about their cesnas than their shareholders?. Whether HFT is there or not, and whether gs or whoever pumps up the price of this or that company now and then,the problem now is with the MODEL itself and not just the trading issue. I would argue that this part of the statement"Additionally, fund managers should act in the long-term interests of the investors whose money they manage" is the part that should change. I would argue that no one should trust anybody with his money. If he or she doesn't know what to do with it,he is definitely better off spending it than giving it to fund managers,who might be able to give his grandkids few dollars that will worth bout the ink they are printed with.
Money flows away from taxes, regulation, and low yields to areas with more freedom, lower taxes, and more opportunity.
Tax more and more and more and soon the cost of capital - in one form or the other - will be dramatically higher and cost every American far more than HFT and far more than this new tax might collect.
If this tax passes, most traders would likely be out of business, and many many hedge funds. Most left would explore moving to Brazil or China, where markets are becoming more free and welcome capital rather than punish it.
But, America is the king of short term thinking....from its leaders to its citizens. With ideas like cash for clunkers and 8k free for housing, subsidizing sub prime loans with almost nothing down via FHA, I suppose its likely this tax will pass. And, its becoming more and more likely that Rio becomes a more powerful financial hub than NYC.
You'll get a lot more bang for your buck by taxing higher incomes. Tax liquidity, you get less of it. Tax the money the traders that work at the company make and you get a different outcome
Actually I'm somewhat wrong on my comment above if the liquidity providers pay bonus via company stock that gets held for long periods of time.
You are still going to hurt short sellers and allow the buy and hold fund managers that never beat the market over the long term to rule the day.
No, buffett is a hypocrite - he has shown his ugly mind several times this downturn arguing for more stimulus and more bailouts of the sort that doesn't benefit the real economy but makes him more zillions via WFC, berkshire etc.
He is probably net-net better off having hft banned even though the vampire squid investment is mightily profitable, coz WFC and the other stocks would plunge once the market turns. HFT and MOMO go as a couple, when momentum turns, buffett's investments would suffer far more than vampire rises
Hooray for Buffett and Vogle! HFT is NOT capitalism. HFT is a parasitic activity which sucks capitalism out of the economy.
buffett is a fraud. he works behind the scenes to get banks bailouts to grease his own wheels. given enough time, most errors can be masked away as time heals
all wounds. yet mask enough away, and soon you think, whatever, you are
doing really works. it is all chaos and like herding cats, chaos, or trying to
catch lightening in a bottle. his madoff scheme just never busted up.
"shadows and dust"
your days of honoring yourself will soon be coming to an end.
Zerohedge wrote - "The fight against HFT, and intraday speculation just got serious.
There has to be a clear distinction made between HFT and a guy sitting at home daytrading ES futures. HFTs have co-located servers and are essentially frontrunning (which I thought was already illegal).
Of course Warren Buffett wants everyone to dump their money in the stock market and never take it out.
A lot of people make their money trading. All this will do is help the big boys make more money and the small guys get screwed.
I am all for banning HFT, however, I am not for screwing the little guy.
Zerohedge wrote - According to the WSJ, Warren Buffett, together with John Bogle and 25 others, have endorsed a petition that focusing on speculative stock gains "hurts the economy and may require regulation."
Why don’t we just shut down the market then or just turn all the money over to a few big boys and get this over with.
Isn’t any investing in the stock market, regardless on duration, speculation?
Or is buy and hold not speculation?
I know I'm an old fashioned dummy in that I don't understand the concept of purchasing stocks that don't pay a dividend.
If a stock doesn't pay a dividend then let the methed-up HFTs go nuts on it. A stock in that regard is just a number attached to an alpha code wizzing across a terminal. So why care which way the numbers go since it doesn't mean crap anyway.
A company that relies on it's stock price for survival is like a man who enters the desert with no water under the belief he can survive by drinking his urine.
Buffet has credit default swaps based on the dow. If it goes to 0 he is out 55 billion. Of course it wont go to 0 but he'll be liquidated on the next crash none the less. He may get to keep a million or two.
TD's protestations to the contrary, in the quotes cited in this post, Buffett is NOT talking about HFT.
This petition is about corporate governance and the fact that public companies are no longer focussed on long-term growth and prosperity, but are rather slaves to quarterly reports and stock price performance.
Buffett's issue here, whether you agree with him or not, is about how companies used to be primarily concerned with actually conducting their businesses, and not making decisions based solely on their short-term impact on executive stock options. He's talking about fund managers and activist investors because they (and their large ownership stakes) influence the management of the companies they own. He's trying to discourage them from taking big stakes, forcing bad decisions, and then walking away when the stock pops, leaving the company worse off.
This petition has nothing to do with speculative, small-size, secondary-market trading. He is not trying to discourage short-term trading, but rather to encourage long-term thinking and transparency on the part of companies and the large investors that (in part) control them.
People, READ what you're talking about here first, and THINK about what it means for yourself. Don't just eat the shit you're being fed.
"Also it is worthy of note that he is taking a stance against a major source of revenue for one of his investments."
Are you kidding Tranche? In countries in which such taxes have been enacted (e.g. Belgium), "Market Makers" like Goldman Sachs are exempt. The excuse being that they provide liquidity; Unlike the insignificant working class filth piddling around with their 401k's.
HFT by GS and JPM will NEVER fall under the new tax.
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