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the banks must pay each other off with the peoples
money. the ......................................................
we are sinking, bailout needed.
BONUS ROUND> and holiday cheer.
laugh my ass off.. :))))))))))))))
there's NO 'Americans - Liberals AND Conservatives '.. none ..
there'are ONLY rich and poor.. white and black.. hungry and not..
its America folks.. cant make it.. sorry you're LOSER w/ big L..
its always been, it will always be..
all this economic termoil and chaos resulting in deterioration
of stability in markets and commerce is just an opportunity for
the international private central bankers and their representatives
in finance and government. opportunity to own for pennies on the dollar,
which i don't even know what a dollar is worth?, they make dollars
offering credit out of thin air and then are bailed out to relieve the
populations of their property when the credit is exposed as fraud. simple.
neither the left or right can afford what they want, even if it is the
same thing. only the banks can have what they want because they
have the keys to the treasury and are not affraid to use them. it is so
blatantly reprehensible and wrong. it is national loansharking. oh yea,
there is a lotto game in every candy store, donut shop and gas station.
and these people line up to throw their money away.
GW, you are naive. Liberal and conservative VOTERS agree on some things. The corporatist elite couldn't give 2 shits. They don't agree on any of those things, therefore until this system changes your silly wish list won't happen. Let us know when you've joined the real world.
[Knowing the many things we agree to empowers us, because it helps get us away from the distractions so that we can realize that there is much common ground among all Americans...]–GW
I must respectfully disagree, GW.
The examples you provide as evidence of common ground are not the values that make us uniquely American. The examples you site exemplify fraud. Fraud is universally abhorred—by Americans on both sides of the aisle, by people in all countries, for all time.
What makes us uniquely "American" is the role in which we(the people) place Government. I’m afraid in this you will find little workable common ground between even today’s "Liberals" and "Conservatives."
Furthermore, your argument rests upon the assumption "Liberals" are ideologically to the left of where our Founders stood, and "Conservatives" ideologically to the right. That a compromise between today’s Liberals and Conservatives lands us comfortably in the middle where our Founders intended. I submit the middling compromise of today’s Liberals and Conservatives lands us somewhere radically left of where our Founders stood.
As you know, our Founders had deep disagreements among themselves, i.e. federalism vs. nationalism. Still, the differences they were arguing then were all far to the right of where America stands today. Our Founders would be labeled radicals today. Today, America stands shaky on a foundation rotting through and through from the "good intentions" of left-wing Progressivism. For 100 years, they’ve been dismantling the foundation our Founders paid for in honor, fortune, and lives. Where are we now? At the edge of a economic abyss that threatens a complete repudiation of our Constitution. Today, we are an embarrassing shadow of our former selves.
Among the many attributes that make Americans unique is, foremost, our distrust of government. That government is necessary, but necessarily minimized. As George Washington put it, government is a necessary evil.
Compromise between today’s Left and Right?
There is no compromise. That compromise was made in 1791 with the ratification of the U.S. Constitution. We have Amendments to accommodate change. I will not, nor will I ever, compromise the Constitution.
Regarding Jefferson’s oft referenced quote "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" this was not a warning, but a prediction.
I love the statement, but "Progressives" can be found on both sides of the isle. In my opinion anyone who endorses central planning is a progressive.
and i'm of the opinion that anyone who is in favor of decentralization is a progressive. i say this not to argue who and who is not a 'progressive' or what the word 'progressive' and its parent word 'progress' really means. rather, i say it to proffer the thought that people whose interests are really aligned are being divided by these terms/words/memes that are being imposed on us by those who seek to wield power & control over other individuals through misdirecting their energies towards paper tigers & shadows on a cave wall.
i propose that we stop bickering over these zombie words and create new ones.
Each party wholeheartedly agrees that nothing good shall transpire in America while the other party is in power. That's the only common ground you'll find in Washington.
Invest in America:
I think on ZH, at least, you are preaching to the converted.
When you write about justice, liberty, freedom and accountability, it's all well and good to most Americans as long as you are criticizing and demonizing some other country. When you use introspection, I suspect most Americans will try to shoot you first and ask questions later (Or plant something on you later to justify a shooting).
It is never easy being right, or noble, or honest about your own society. It is even harder to convince anyone else, even if they are the biggest, most blantant, and obvious facts. People consciously edit out the parts they don't want to see or hear. Believe me, that's the way the human mind works. Repetition and reinforcement helps, but if you say anything that is contrary to a person's core beliefs (USA is the greatest country in the world, the president always knows what he is doing, torture and murder are legitimate tools of the justice system, the intelligence services protect us, etc.) you will find yourself in trouble. Even by those you love.
I wish you well, and I hope you achieve something, but I shall be worrying about you nevertheless. Please be careful. It only takes seconds these days to falsely accuse anyone as a terrorist and enemy of the state. Look at Julian Assange - it didn't take very long to tar him as a friendless rapist.
Thoughtful and positive suggestions for change throughout the post and comments thread... unfortunately none will see the light of day unless money is eliminated (not reduced or controlled) from the electoral process, which would effectively (without legislation) end "legal" lobbying.
KTV Escort (above) has it... all elections are 100% publicly funded... that's the (only, IMHO) path to true political sea-change in America.
speaking of light.. musical break...
"Shine On Me" by Abbot Kinney Lighthouse Choir
as the instrument of universal expression as relates to humanity is
the individual in tegr ity ated with the universe. non denominational
or sectarian or encumbered by symbol. if you cannot differentiate the
map from the road, as the left and right cannot and are wings of one bird. starving.
cheeks of same ass, sitting uselessly with no insight or vision.
'God Don't Never Change' BLIND WILLIE JOHNSON (1929)
'The Soul Of A Man' BLIND WILLIE JOHNSON (1930)
Good job GW.
Get them where you can: SCALE.
No one trusts scale. Entrepreneurs can't elbow in with scale. Repubs and Dems can agree on scale but both their leaders are slimy rent-seeking protectors.
“””One fundamental problem with discussing politics: the attempt to resolve everything onto a single axis for comparison”””
If I may expand, the single axis for different regions and Foreign policy objectives is also most difficult. The ideal situation would be to have a ray of light that when broken up into different prisms would show many diverse colors. Light that illuminates the World made up of diverse components. Unfortunately, America (USA) is so corrupted that this seems impossible. Divergence of view appears to be unsolvable.
America has a grave and serious illness of Political and Financial corruption. We can recover and become less ill. But, with the extent of the illness and the undiscovered portions of it, recovery can not be rapid. That is assuming that recovery can be achieved in a peaceful manner, which IMO is the only rational choice.
There is some talk on the street, here and other communications of physical over throw of the Government. I personally have no fear of my death in the defense or recovery of Freedom. However, going to the street in a non peaceful manner has some problems.
The largest and worst is that a fire fight with the Power Structure would not be fought against the tyranniest and oppressors of America. The elite dictators will send the kid next door, in the National Guard or Marines, to establish order. YOU will not have a chance to get your pitch fork near the bad guys, and you can’t hurt the kid next door. This is not a good scenario. I was in the middle of the Watts Riots some 40 odd years ago. Kent State is another example.
The largest problem with revolution is what kind of leaders take control and the subsequent results. Cuba next door is an excellent example. Batista needed to be taken out. There was talk on my campus at the time of going to Cuba to join the fight for freedom. From a friend that fought in the revolution, there were several factions involved not just a united Castro, mostly University students.
You know the out come, and we sure as bloody hell do not want to go there. IMO Mexico could be on the verge of such major turmoil. The battles on the Texas border are real and worse that the press will publish. A destabilized USA is not an option at this point with this Southern threat.
A major revamp of the Financial industries and a revision and turn to a honest and transparent government will be difficult, but is absolutely a pressing and dire problem that may not wait. Kicking the can to the end of the road is not a good solution.
We have the best educated young population in American history, that can not get jobs and they watch as their parents get destroyed in the aftermath of the toxic acts of crime.
For those in power, I suggest that they not trifle any longer with this youth. This indeed is not only an emergency for the Banking system, but for the idle and young of America where the restraint level, may be as it historically has been with youth.
* Audit, then end the Fed * Publicly funded elections * Eliminate Homeland Security & TSA * Eliminate 50% US military bases (to begin with) world-wide * Immediate withdrawl from Afghanistan & Iraq * Eliminate the Patriot Act & all presidential signing statements * Eliminate COG * Prosecute Banks Engaging in Criminal Foreclosure Activities * Prosecute MBS, etc Fraud * Put in prison (treason) any politician who voted for TARP, the Patriot Act, and the continued funding of illegal wars * Independent investigation of 9-11 * Public hangings for repeat rapists & sex offenders * Repeal trade agreements and tax loopholes that encourage outsourcing * Act locally to organize food co-ops & markets with in-state growers * Support grassroots progressive/populist party candidates at the local level * Slash government worker salaries and entitlements * 1 child policy world-wide * legalize pot * Manhattan project for clean-energy grids * Re-implement honest accounting proceedures/reporting after the TBTFs are broken up * A more thorough teaching of the US Constitution/Bill of Rights in public schools * New programs in public schools that teach/develop critical thinking skills
Not one item on your comprehensive and excellent list will create private sector (ie. wealth creating) jobs in America. Many will expand government even further (ie. increase the tax burden on the few remaining working Americans).
Assuming the country is divided into just liberals and conservatives is naive to say the least.
The nuances in the differences of each of us from the other are far too complex to be reduced to such simplistic terms as L or C.
I was asked by another (who has insisted on judging me a conservative) how I Could Not subscribe to the Wall Street Journal. Apparently all conservatives suscribe to the WSJ in his world view. He would not take that as a clue that just maybe you can't classify me as a conservative since I don't subscribe to any so-called conservative media.
People I know are so self-contradictory that while they may claim to be this or that, their actions and behavior dictate just the opposite.
My take on government is that it needs to be kept small. Therefore, the United States is too monstrously large to govern----well, it can be governed but that governance will only benefit a very few at horrific cost to the many--and that 'many' doesn't even know it. e.g. they shop at Big Box Stores to save money on stuff. All the while they are sending their money over to Indonesia, Korea, Japan, China, Brazilv, Malaysia, etc and then cry about how their kids cannot find a decent paying job. How do you classify these tens of millions of people who spend money to destroy their own self interest? You can't.
Why fixing America is a bad idea. Its broke beyond repair. QE2 is debt monetization, essentially default. Neither liberals or conservatives know or understand whats going on. Frankly nobody does. Common management practice suggests when a system is too complex and corrupted and incomprehensible it should be discarded and replaced. Just a like a computer with a bad hard drive. Problem is its 2010. A key US industry was maintaining dollar reserve status to preserve our living standard.
After this mess the world wil not allow US (read US banksters) to control anything beyond a food bank in their country. US dollar will be toast. In effect US and UK reputation is so badly tarnished that nobody will want us "back". It could be so bad that an average American tourist maybe robbed of hs belongings in every European capital as reparations.
Would you release Bernie Madoff and put him charge of an investment company? The answer is obvious. America 2.0 will emerge, and it will be a micro edition of the original.
As of now USA is lost, we are just a zombie nation looking for fresh blood to bring us back to life again.
the fed is not part of the usa although it has "bought" /
stolen the government of the usa with fiat currency. it is a global
One fundamental problem with discussing politics: the attempt to resolve everything onto a single axis for comparison. This is lunacy. A multi-dimensional approach which includes separate axes for social concerns, fiscal concerns, foreign policy concerns, etc would allow people to find their common ground more quickly without letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
As a socially liberal (legalize pot/prostitution, let gays marry, hands-off-the-womb), but fiscally conservative (balanced budget, reduce spending across the board) voter it's difficult to find any politican who accurately reflects all my views. So I'm left with no choice but to vote against the greater of two evils in each and every election...which merely guarantees that I'll be ruled by a lesser evil.
Some things I think we can all agree on:
- Freedom means other people not telling you what you can do if it doesn't have any effect on others
- Equality of opportunity is good for all Americans (equality of outcomes is on you)
- Tax loopholes and preferential treatment for the few are anethma to good fiscal governance
"Equality of opportunity is good for all Americans (equality of outcomes is on you)"
+ a million.
+ a billion, that's a very profound statement actually, especially if you are willing to consider it from a 'liberal' point of view.
"that's a very profound statement actually, especially if you are willing to consider it from a 'liberal' point of view."
I thought so too...there is hope.
I am of the opinion, and have been for awhile, that left, right & middle will have to pick one issue (from a host of issues) and agree to use it as a scalpel on what is a metastasizing cancer on the body politic.
I believe the issue we can use is finance.
well, if it is an issue that needs to be the fulcrum, i agree that the most likely contender is finance for sure. but maybe it needs to be deeper than just an issue. issues are just the carrier mechanisms of certain ideas/ethics/principles.
i think about this a lot, as in meatspace, the overwhelming majority of my environment and the people i'm around & enjoy being around consider themselves on the 'left' end of the spectrum, whereas, here i find myself in agreement much of the time with folks like yourself who consider themselves on the 'right'. the struggle for me is not in debating which is 'correct' but rather finding a common ground. in my observations, i think that common ground can be found in a basic set of principles revolving around basic human dignity, respect, self-empowerment, & compassion.
live & let live is the slogan that best defines that ground for me so far.
"i think about this a lot, as in meatspace, the overwhelming majority of my environment and the people i'm around & enjoy being around consider themselves on the 'left' end of the spectrum, whereas, here i find myself in agreement much of the time with folks like yourself who consider themselves on the 'right'."
I seem to dwell on it more than I should I think...however, unlike yourself, I associate with mostly people who think like I do...but you would be surprised on their "social" views overall...to a certain degree of course, we are not knuckle dragging neanderthals...LOL...but we do draw the line with our kids.
When it comes to our kids and their future and well being we become vicious for their protection...in this we share the lefts desire to leave this place to them better than we found it.
It can go either way we figure...we can help crash it and begin building it back correctly for them or we can correct what we screwed up for them.
It's always been about the kids & their future as far as I'm concerned.
Couldn't (could?) not agree more.
end the fed
end all taxes
End the Evil Triumvirate (corrupt Congress, captive POTUS, compliant SCOTUS). DC is a RICO scheme.
the soft spot of all of the beasts is the fed and their notes.
these notes are like bed bugs remotely controlled to bleed
real living people as they sleep. bleed them of everything
that is essential to their humanity. their time, work, minds
intellect and love. all dependent on these bloody fiat scraps
in eternal default and deceit. issued by secretive scoundrels
who produce, will not tolerate production, nothing without
it being stripped of it's value first, and of course deposited with them.
the fed is the achilles heal of the beast.
and it is just a fictitious entity that deals in fictions. the minds of men,
the hearts of men and women will prevail. clarity is all. it is simple.
illusions are beautiful things, as are organizations but they are
dangerous and harmful when they are misunderstood to be "reality".
so the individual, "reality", carries illusions "states" / "organisations"
in their heads and mistakes these concepts for reality or real entities
thereby becoming slave to the "monumental ideas" espoused from on
high. all bullshit created by individuals to blind his fellows. the best
example or symbol of this is the federal reserve note. it is / was worshipped.
and gold could do the same thing / has done the same thing.
the individual is real, the state is a fiction of the individual as is the church etc.
not that these fictions should not exist it is just that to exist they MUST
exist in service to, for the benefit of and always in secondary consideration
to the individual. and always recognised as a poorly defined yet useful
servant of the individual real living organism, person. this bit of
corporations having person hood is evil drivel that has destroyed the
constitution and the country. a child knows it is bullshit. disgraceful.
i have to stop here.
ps. end the fed. they don't deserve to rule and own the country or
anything. they are a fraud. fraud perpetuated at the top of the
"money" chain now filtered down and infesting the entire culture
so now everyone and everything, to survive in their toilet money system,
must also be a fraud. and in debt , desperate, looking to go even lower .....
their wars need be seen for what they are. murder and stealing, criminal.
and the industries that support it / perpetuate it also a blight on the world
dragging all people to the doom reserved for the stupidest species god
wrongly gifted with intellect, can't differentiate reality from bullshit.
Green Porno - Bedbug
Green Porno - Dragonfly+rus sub
I like to be optimistic, but its 2010 and fixing America is a gigantic task that would require another Andrew Jackson.
I bet Larry Summers replacement is ex Goldman Sachs too. Problem is the very tools that were designed to keep America away from Royalty have been bought over and corrupted. A third party is obviously needed but can it withstand the colossal nexus in government and banking- Answer is an emphatic No! The new campaign funding laws of anonymous political contribution assures that 100%. America is a lost cause and will never comeback.
The aggregate of individuals at this time is merely reflecting outward as a "them." But that "them" is you. The person them self needs to ask what it is they really want and gut busy doing that -- when the mind is drawn into abstractions the very issues themselves can be "bait" with which to further drag the person off their task for what it is they want. Free Republics have always been about a rigid individualism -- a drive to work out one's own fate -- regardless of the impediments. As the individual rises into their potential the whole show will change -- almost without effort. What do you want?
End the Fed(eral Government). It's been a miserable failure (federalism doesn't work); it cannot and will not be reformed (sorry, GW); the states are perfectly capable of governing themselves (as least until they aren't needed); and what better way to put an end to the bogus War on Terror (since the terrorists will have gotten what they want as well: an end to the greatest rogue state in the world).
Liberals want laws to ban cigarette smoking. Conservatives want laws to ban marijuana smoking. Bottom line: They both want to tell you what you can smoke. Because they know better than you, what is good for you.
See, they do agree on somethings!
Screw them, become a Libertarian.
"Liberals want laws to ban cigarette smoking. Conservatives want laws to ban marijuana smoking. Bottom line: They both want to tell you what you can smoke. Because they know better than you, what is good for you."
Good points Clint...LOL.
As a fiscal conservative...I would add they both wish to tax them...heavily...I have long said decriminalization of pot is the thing to do...not legalization where it would be slowly taxed out of reach to the lowest on the income scale...hell then a pot voucher would be next I suppose...I can see the campaign slogan now...an ounce in every pot...LOL.
Disclaimer: I don't smoke pot...anymore ;-)
go left enough, you're owned by a government
go right enough, you're owned by a bible of some sort
go rational and you question the agendas of both.
I think GW is on to something.
Perhaps a Constitutional Amendment to prohibit the US government from borrowing money would achieve many of the more specific goals as well as being much simpler for a majority of people to rally behind.
I wonder how TPTB would get around that one.
Create another way we haven't yet seen?
It's Magic... What happens up there, You Know.
I might add that what we are doing currently, mostly compromising between two partisan ideologies, often gets on the worst Frankenstein corporatacracy, when either "pure" partisan solution would likely be better for common folk.
Like on banks: many progressives would say they should just all be like Bank of ND, governement run public utilities and certaininly Bank of ND has helped, not harmed the population of that state, as have pure nationalized central banks in other countries (not private cartels like the FED). Population would lose predators, gain super profits given to bank elites to be used instead for common good projects like infrastructure.
Or, conservatives would say banks should be private, but allowed to fail and this too would be better than what we have. In this case, at times banks would prey, cause booms and bust with their tendency to create to much credit money, but if the govt did not interfere and let them crash, then those stupid private banks would cease to exist and debts would all default and economy would recover quickly, jubilee via creative destruction.
I would argue either scenario, even tho one of these will be ideologically repugnant to any partisan, either is better than your stated "unholy alliance of govt and banks". In this case, our case, the elites do not simply run amok and create booms and busts, they use state power to lessen their losses of the busts and further the losses of the general population vie taxes for bailouts. So instead of boring, all govt solution, or private self-clearing solution, we have the zombie freak show called US banking.
The GSE's of Fan and Fred are another Frankenstein. Progressives would say if all mortgages run thru public bank or govt org like FHA, things would have been much better, and the performance of Bank of ND, FHA (prior to private banks enlisting it as a dumping ground). Conservatives would say there should have never been any thing other than private mortgage securitizations, and when they got carried away in housing boom, their bondholders and stockholders should have been wiped out.
I would say either of those scenarios, all govt with no private banker influence in existance, or all private with no govt guarantees, would be better than the black hole in our national budget that Fan and Fred have left us, simplty so we could bail out their bond holders after these private hands got all the profits.
There are many other examples. Rather than us taking a populist stand that unites us, they split us between two pure options, either of which is better than what we get, a "compromise" between left and right that always leads to overly costly govt forced program that enriches insider elites while providing very little value to regular folks.
Again, and again we get jobbed this way. Divide, force a compromise that yields tiny value to people and greatly enrichs elites, wash, rinse, repeat.
If we can't get together on populist principles, then I say we just do all one or the other, as either would be better than hyrid freaks.
Don't get me wrong, I think truly balanced and moderated, mixed governments provide the best commonwealth to their people...look at France and Germany, good for businesses, shoot Germany is an exporting star while still paying workers high wages, obeying strict environmental regs etc...these countries businesses succeed and their people are well taken care of.
I think its all in balance and that all govt is not bad nor do I think all businesses are bad, each should be used to check the other. But it does seems that here in US instead of having the beautiful mixed race child, we have a freak of genetic engineering.
Good job, GW. What's the next step? We were born in the same year and died in the same year, y'know, ol' son.
To find out more about the Imminent Collapse of the U.S. Dollar, watch the video "U.S. CREDIT, DOLLAR COLLAPSE – CAPITALISM DESTROYED" at (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWKDmMERKZg).
The United States is the Titanic and has been driven straight into an iceberg at the expense of the American people!! It’s time to buy Food, Guns, and Ammo as Survival Techniques will be the new vogue!
The problem is not that liberals and conservatives disagree. The problem is that the US Empire is done, burnt, toast.
I've lived in the US my whole life, and it's just stunning how a once-thriving republic with a huge middle class has slowly turned into a replica of post-Soviet Russia (not the revitalized, successful post-1999 Russia, but the collapsing Empire of 1990-1998). We have Wall Street oligarchs instead of party-state magnates, Bubbleklatura instead of a nomenklatura, Goldman Sachs instead of a Politburo, Fox News instead of Pravda, a trillion dollar military we don't need and can't afford versus a hundred billion dollar military they didn't need and couldn't afford, and an insane failed colonial war on Afghanistan instead of their insane failed colonial war on Afghanistan.
Either we end the Empire, or it ends us.
I appreciate your efforts and intentions, GW, I just think you're too hopeful.
The banksters and politicians are the same class of people and they will not give up power. The politicians will not disempower then banks, nor vice-versa.
They will crash the system, in one way or another, holding desperately to power.
We need to build alternative systems if we want what you and I think of as "America" to endure. They will crush the people of the existing system, bit by bit, take every bit of freedom in the name of safety, and keep it going as long as they can.
I know that is ugly, but it is also super-likely. The good people (and yes, there are many) will have to separate themselves or be slowly degraded.
Sorry, but it's true.
On a timeline toward your vision (and mine) is an escalation of State-confrontational ideas and actions. Probability isn't high for a quick jump toward a renewal of a Republic. But, an awakening of the masses with pro-active, yet escalating, smaller steps is greatly beneficial to the final goal. The more peeps who have ownership in disposing of the corrupt and creating something new, the more chance of something good and stable emerging. Thus, our brother G.W. is on the proper timeline, IMHO..
Hi Shell Game:
I'll take improvement from any direction. :)
That said, my concern is that people waste their energy working within the system. I think they need to get over the psychological hump of being separate. Once separate, I think they would build freedom FAR more effectively.
Completely agree, that is by far our largest hurdle!
This is a wonderful political analysis. Unfortunately, incumbents of both parties are totally in the pockets of the banks. When they were deliberating about the TARP, public comments ran 99:1 against giving away taxpayer money, and our elected stooges just ignored us. They are all members of the Bankocratican party. To get anything done, we need to get rid of a large percentage of all incumbents. I think our best hope is for judges and state attorneys general to push hard enough so that congress is forced to go along. Unfortunately, even the state attorneys general seem to think of foreclosure fraud as an opportunity for a bit of revenue for the states, much like the tobacco settlements--see the last paragraph of this little fable: http://dailybail.com/home/secretary-of-predation-geithner-bank-of-america-and-the-law.html.
Bernanke will need more Currency Swap Lines for the Irish Banks, the Italian Banks, the Spanish Banks, the Portuguese Banks, and all the other banks I forgot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0NYBTkE1yQ
Check out on Google >> Gordon Duff the California Missile
and on youtube >>> Wayne Madsen Ballistic Missile
the November 8th ICBM Missile was launched from
a Chineese Submarine ... our US Navy did not see
the Sub.... and it got away.... Big News
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