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Congratulations, America. Torture Has Led You On a Wild Goose Chase, Destroyed the Rule of Law and Made You Less Safe
There are numerous headlines this week about torture:
But these headlines make no sense unless they are put in context and given historical background:
- President Obama, Attorney General Eric Holder, Malcolm Nance (an advisor on terrorism to the US departments of Homeland Security, Special Operations and Intelligence), Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples
(the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency) and many other
interrogation experts and high-level politicians say that waterboarding
is torture
- The United States has always considered waterboarding to be a crime of torture, including when the Japanese did it in WWII (and see this)
- Everyone claiming waterboarding is not torture has changed their tune as soon as they were exposed to even a small dose of it themselves. See this, this and this
- Former Navy Judge Advocate General Admiral John Hutson said that "Torture is the technique of choice of the lazy, stupid and pseudo-tough"
- One of the Military's Top Interrogators Says Torture Cost Hundreds 'If Not Thousands' Of American Lives
- Torture Is Not a Partisan Issue . . . George Washington - Who Was Neither a Democrat or Republican - Forbid All Torture
- One
of the Main Sources for the 9/11 Commission Report was Tortured Until
He Agreed to Sign a Confession that He Was NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO READ
- 9/11
Mastermind: "During ... My Interrogation I Gave A Lot Of False
Information In Order To Satisfy What I Believed The Interrogators Wished
To Hear"
- The Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer) - who led the 9/11 staff's inquiry - recently said: "The CIA tapes of the interrogations were destroyed. The story of 9/11 itself, to put it mildly, was distorted and was completely different from the way things happened"
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I am fed up with the little scorekeeper leftist idiots who split hairs on torture. If someone had your wife or kids, or your boyfriend, and was going to do harm. What would you do? Have John Kerry or Obama write a UN sanctioned letter?
People get indignant about torture of people we are extracting information from to save lives. We are not trying to pin someone for shoplifting a pack of gum at Walmart. Anyone who sites "research proves that torture does not produce any results" is an idiot. Ask John Mc Cain how effective torture is. It is a brutal way to get info no doubt, but the idea that we are going to sit idly while some terrorist or idiot plots to do harm is the ultimate in liberal apathy.
God Bless George Bush and our Military, (with all their imperfections) for standing up like men and actually doing something about protecting our people. Yeah, I know all your conspiracy people like to think yourself in circles and inactivity and think I am some warhead douche, but I guess I am just naive to take people at face value..that is the people who have stated their intentions..I know..Bush put them up to it...even before he was in office...
God Help us all.
"Ask John McCain if torture works"
All the actionable intelligence John S. McCain had was dead within 12 hours of him being captured. After that the torture was soley to get him to read statements as a propaganda tool.
If your goal is to punish people who've committed crimes, your issue is with Thomas Jefferson and the bill of Rights.
If your goal is to get actionable intelligence, you understand the minute a target is captured and the enemy is aware of it the actionable intelligence becomes non actionable in a very short period of time, because the enemy assumes the target talked.
If you are asking a question and the person doesn't have the answer for, what you are going to get is lies to make the pain stop and a wild goose chase.
Sarcasm?
If not:
According to the experts - torture is unnecessary even to prevent "ticking time bombs" from exploding (see this, this and this). Indeed, a top expert says that torture would fail in a real 'ticking time-bomb' situation
I don't care what the 'experts' say. I'm pretty certain torture would work on me. Just sayin'.
Listen you worthless fuck of a leftist 9/11 Truther...your fucking experts are making the case that WTC was dropped by explosives. You can get any set of asshole experts to say just about anything. Motherfuckers probably craving for attention and hoping by that attention they can get a piece of ass.
Truth of the matter is torture has worked...has ALWAYS worked and will always work. We just have to decide when it is important enough to do it and live with the guilt of doing that to someone. In my case I would definitely torture someone to save my family. I would probably rot from inside out afterwards but it would be worth it. That is reality fuckwad.
Now back to your worrying about how WTC 7 fell....goddamn why am I wasting time talking to a fuckwad who believes that Israelis planted explosives in the towers?
Well you should have said you were quoting "experts" and I would never had doubted you!
John McCain's experience would suggest that the "experts" are wrong.
Putting aside any moral issue for a moment let's look at this in simplest terms.
Long ago people quit attempting to put round pegs in square holes. Why? Because it doesn't work.
If torture didn't work - meaning, it was not effective - people wouldn't waste time doing it.
Thus, with its continued use by peoples the world over, logic tells me that it does work.
Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but until you're the person presented with such a situation I don't think any of us here, sitting comfortably behind our keyboards, are even remotely qualified to make ANY assumptions about what we'd do in such a hellish predicament.
Lastly, one our of problems - IMHO as a former Marine - is that we haven't fought any war with the intention of winning since WWII. Regardless of cause, if you're going to pick a fight, you better be damn sure you're in it to win it. Sadly, we haven't been in decades and pussy-footing around in both war and peace has gotten us where we are today. Which ain't saying much.
When you are at war with someone and they are killing your friends it is fun to beat the shit out of someone in their forces.
Do you know why Iraqis surrendered in 1991. They knew the US wouldn't torture them.
Do you know why the Japanese didn't surrender. They assumed we would torture them because they torture us.
See how this works.
nmewn may just be trying to Herd the Sheep.
Good one GW!
No George, I'm not.
Any other week I would not (probably) have said a word.
Why are you doing this so close to Veterans Day?
Our veterans are good, brave and moral people.
It is the civilian leaders who created the policy of torture. In fact, it was chicken hawks like Cheney:
"Our veterans are good, brave and moral people"
I know you have to say this.
But do you truly believe it?
why bother saying it. its better just to say to them i fully believe that our military is a brutal mercenary occupying force serving the interests of corporations and international elite.
Policy???...LOL.
The current administrations "policy" is to use predator drones on houses.
Are there any children in these houses? Women? Innocent men? Is it just to do this without a "trial"? ;-)
You dance around my "your family is in jeapordy" question by citing "experts" who have never had to make any such decision for themselves or their families. You refuse to call a terrorist a terrorist. You can't acknowledge the difference between a uniformed combatant and a non-uniformed combatant You do not respond to why this post, this week, two days before Veterans Day.
I'm done GW.
I believe we have both lost a little respect for each other this evening. Maybe we should leave it there.
Good night.
Is your avatar IRONIC?
"Our veterans are good, brave and moral people"
I know you have to say this.
But do you truly believe it?
Hunter said this while on acid didn't he?
I would think he felt the same way about Papa Kennedy...don't you?
what is sad is that it is true whether he was on acid or not. and what is
even potentially sadder is that americans are too self absorbed in the absence
of acid to recognize it.
papa kennedy similar but different. " A staunch isolationist, Kennedy argued for the appeasement of Hitler and wanted the United States to stay out of any conflict that might occur between Britain and Germany. Needless to say, this line was not a big hit with the English people or with conservative leaders such as future Prime Minister Winston Churchill. Kennedy resigned under pressure in 1940, when war became inevitable."
whereas..
prescot bush.."
Early life http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott_BushBush was born in Columbus, Ohio, to Samuel Prescott Bush and Flora Sheldon Bush. Samuel Bush was a railroad executive, then a steel company president, and, during World War I, also a federal government official in charge of coordination and assistance to major weapons contractors.
..
Bush and the Union Banking Corporation
Bush was one of seven directors of the Union Banking Corporation, an investment bank controlled by the Thyssen family, which was seized in October 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act as being owned by "enemy aliens." The assets were held by the government for the duration of the war, then returned afterward.
In an article relying on conspiracy theorist John Buchanan's work, The Guardian stated that the company formed part of a multinational network of front companies to allow Thyssen to move assets around the world.[3] The Alien Property Custodian records state "Whether all or part of the funds held by Union Banking Corporation, or companies associated with it, belong to Fritz Thyssen could not be established in this investigation."[4]
In 2003, the Anti-Defamation League said:
“ Rumors about the alleged Nazi 'ties' of the late Prescott Bush ... have circulated widely through the internet in recent years. These charges are untenable and politically motivated. Despite some early financial dealings between Prescott Bush and a Nazi industrialist named Fritz Thyssen (who was arrested by the Nazi regime in 1938 and imprisoned during the war), Prescott Bush was neither a Nazi nor a Nazi sympathizer.[3][5]......
..... etc...
Forget brown people - Ratigan just gave 6 minutes to Ted Rall who wants to get it on with American terrorists, the Tea Party. Dylan seems to get a rise out of Teddy's new book, which is chock full of righteous lefty anger.
Uuuuuuuh let's get ready to rumblllllllllllllllllllllle!! C'mon GW, you want cheap hits you gotta throw down some real meat for the douchebags. Like Ratigan...
Teddy doesn't really get it does he? Governments in self-survival mode tend to silence their once thought of former liberal allies first. The militia types have their own encampments. They intend to not be fucked with but this guy Teddy believes all 300k total of them will somehow storm the cities murdering liberal Americans? Wow. That this material actual sells leads me to believe I am in the wrong business. The lights will go out and then we all shall understand what will come next. Hear is a hint. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ - BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM a dozen American cities gone. Think the upstarts will play nice after that? Maybe not... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ- BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM another few cities gone. The reciprocity would likely happen silently played out all over the world like the ending of Sum of All Fears until the lessons are learned. I so hope "Alter" is still an available option for our government rather than abolish. The death toll will be horrific if not.
"an even more extreme form of laissez-faire corporate capitalism than we’re suffering under today"
ha ha, FAIL
Cruel and unusual punishment shall not be inflicted.
- Eighth Amendment
"The United States of America does not torture."
- Pres. George W. Bush, press conference, Nov. 29, 2005
"No one shall be subjected to torture, or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
- The U.N.'s Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Nowhere do you see the phrase: "Except for enemy combatants or terrorists."
People that defend torture really are worthless human beings and don't deserve being listened to.
Then there's that little problem of the definition, isn't there? Where exactly did you get your dubious moral self-regard? It is the easiest thing in the world to second-guess with 20-20 hindsight decisions made when uncertainty and risks were high. You evidently have no clue what it is like to be responsible for the lives of others...let alone potentially tens of thousands. Spare me your dripping sanctimony, dickhead.
Not many comments escaped junking so that means the debate is still alive and well (unlike many detainees).
Having recently watched this movie I recommend it to all.
The ending is not at all what is expected:
Unthinkable
Unthinkable2010 R 97 minutes
When the government gets wind of a plot to destroy America involving a trio of nuclear weapons, locations unknown, it's up to a seasoned interrogator (Samuel L. Jackson) and an FBI agent (Carrie-Anne Moss) to find out exactly where they are. A suspected terrorist who's already in custody is their only chance for a timely answer. But what will it take to get him to talk? Michael Sheen, Brandon Routh and Martin Donovan co-star.
I'm really appaled the there is an actual debate. With ethics, and morality, the ends do not justify the means. I need money, therefore I rob someone. Did it work? Yes, I got the money I needed. Was it right? Of course not.
if nmewn is representative of the american people then the country deserves a plane in the side of every single skyscraper.
But i'm fairly convinced that he is just one of these minority of people who gets off on perpetual retribution that they think 9/11 entitles them to.
Bush: 'i approved torture because my job was to protect American lives'
innocent americans are amongst those you tortured, jerkoff. How many timothy mcveighs do you want to inspire?
its like a boxer punching his opponent repeatedly in the balls and saying 'my job is to win boxing matches', and expecting that justification to be accepted and help his career
"if nmewn is representative of the american people then the country deserves a plane in the side of every single skyscraper."
I represent nothing here but myself...me.
Oh...by the way your just another asshole who wants to kill defenseless people by your above statement.
Eat shit bitch.
I'm using rhetoric, of course i dont wish a plane in every skyscraper. However, if you are representative of the majority of american people, and advocate the torture of people who havent even had a fair trial, you can hardly be called 'defenseless people' now, can you? you can in fact be called barbarous. Otherwise the word barbarous has no effective meaning.
while its not worth the excercise to find out, of course, I wonder that maybe if there were more planes in more skyscrapers, right wing nut jobs might come to understand why the rest of the world doesnt seem to easily 'get over it' when their family and countrymen are slain by 'collateral damage'.
So now you come back and amend your remarks to include this banality;
"while its not worth the excercise to find out, of course, I wonder that maybe if there were more planes in more skyscrapers, right wing nut jobs might come to understand why the rest of the world doesnt seem to easily 'get over it' when their family and countrymen are slain by 'collateral damage'."
We had no troops in Afghanistan or Iraq when terrorists flew planes into skyscrapers you fucking leftwing moonbat!
The only place you can bend time & space to make the planes crash through skyscrapers after we went into those nations, is in your warped & twisted brain.
Some would say that's the very reason why planes flew into said skyscrapers... Conspiration theory aside Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 & Al Queada. 1 mn civilian casualties after you might sense some anger, though.
You must be young...we were attacked multiple times...once on the same building with a truck bomb.
Hussein was involved in a plot to kill one of our presidents, he had used WMD on his own people and the Persians, he had Abu Nidal (a terrorist) ensconced in Baghdad, he broke just about every UN sanction they ever placed on him, he paid Palestinian families $25,000 dollars if a family member killed Israeli civilians, his two bastard sons were sadistic killers & torturers...I could go on.
Look up Halabja...I speak the truth.
If your going to be vulgar at least include a articulate well thought out response to the above statement, bad form.
Good point...I'll extend my pinky finger this time...see below.
I'm not so certain what he wants, but its clear that you want defenseless people to be tortured, including innocent people. Which means it is you who is the bitch of the government.
Tell me the names of the "innocent" who were "tortured".
It's a short list...three.
You are saying they are innocent?
One of them sawed off Danny Pearl's head. Just a regular guy huh?
Irregular combatants without uniform can be shot out of hand in the field. I have no problem with that. If they don't like it they can adapt a sign.
How convienent that anyone and everyone can be declared as a non-combantant then.
That includes American citizens and the innocent.
Terrorists are not covered under the Geneva Convention.
Next.
Not relevant.
I thought that this country was founded upon the principles of unalienable rights, due process and the rule of law???
.
I thought this country was founded upon the belief of unalienable rights...that all men have rights...
Yes, it was. But that doesn't bother the apologists for torture, even though they claim to be "patriots". They are actually enemies of mankind.
Don't be too disturbed by the Geo Wash nonsense. There were three captives at Gitmo who were waterboarded. According to the geo Wash nonsense those events are what makes you less safe and more likely to become the victim of a headchopper. Was Danny Pearl chopped before or after the waterboarding?
And of course the Geneva convention does not apply to the free ranging terrorists and bombers. Geo Wash is playing cover up again. Look for more reports where he does the cut and paste from Before it is News and GodLikeProductions. You'll know the trash when you read it.
People that advocate torture should have to undergo torture first. Please be patriotic and volunteer to be tortured.
Most of the Special Force types go through water boarding...
We know your limits...so do the terrorists. You won't torture...they still do. You are fucked.
Say the police discover that a ticking bomb with a special code has been positioned in a huge city somewhere and it is going to go off in two hours. They capture one of the terrorists. What should they do ?
(a) Read him his rights, get him a cup of coffee and a cigarette and ask him to call his lawyer.
(b) Do whatever is necessary to get him to reveal the location.
The danger with torture as an investigative tool is that it can dehumanise the good guys, but there is a time and place for everything. Also, most of these terrorists are not boy scouts out on a lark. They are seriously dangerous individuals intent on satanic harm and must be dealt with appropriately.
The sheep need the wolfhounds to protect them from the wolves.
Blessings to all those in the security services of the world working to protect their fellow man.
If you capture someone who doesn't actually know where the bomb is, guess what you have a wild goose chase and diverted resources because I start torturing you, I can get you to tell me you are a time traveler that killed the Lindberg baby eventually and where you hid the time machine if I want.