is a copy of a notice from my heavyweight health care provider,
UnitedHealthcare/Oxford. Note that at the renewal rate insurance for a
family of four now costs $58,600 a year.
In the Heathcare debate the CBO but out some numbers on insurance costs
for a family. Their high-end number was 17% of household income. By that
calculation a family would have to have an income of $345,000 to afford
this plan.
This is no Cadillac. I pay minimums and co-pays. I had a surgeon I know
and trust cut something recently. He was out of network so that cost
$1,300. I have the Freedom Plan. But actually I am in jail. These
folks have me over a barrel.
Consider the pricing differential for a husband and wife and a family of
four. The kids cost an extra $1,629 a month. Pay that bill for eighteen
years and it comes to a tidy $350 thou. Who in their right mind would
want to have kids looking at that tab?
How many people are getting letters like this? Not many. 4-5 million is
my guess. More every day is the certain answer. There is nothing in the
Healthcare bill that is law today that changes this. There is no
interstate competition. There is no reason to it. It is gouging.
I have to suck it up and pay these bills. But I am going to vote with my
feet. For my State Senators, Charles Schumer (D) and Kirtsten
Gillibrand (D) and my Congressman John Hall (D), don’t look for my vote
or support this fall.
Disclosure: Long time Dem. Until recently, a district leader for
the party. Steady contributor. Pissed.
The Insurance Companies got their game plan from the Credit Card Industry. Just before the Credit Card Reform Credit Card Companies raised their interest rates from 9.9% to 29.9%.
Insurers are raising premiums to pad their balance sheets before they have to Insure everyone including the very sick people. They are doing just what the Government is doing, paying for the Government Health Care plan before it goes into effect in 2013.
The other thing that you did not mention in the cost of your Health Care costs was the additional tax of 3.8% on Interest, Dividends, Capital Gains, Rental Income. This Tax actually penalizes Retired People more than others because that is what most Retirees live on. So, it becomes a lower standard of living for thoes living on fixed income.
I actually wonder if the Health Care Bill will create even more Uninsured People. The opposite of what they intended. Insurance Costs will Skyrocket due to the fact that the Insurance Companies will only insure very Sick People. This will eventually Bankrupt all of the Insurance Companies. The Government will benifit as most People will pay the Government the "tax" rather than buy Insurance.
The Health Insurance Bill is only about more Taxes to the Government. Think about how much more the Government will make from 3.8% on all Interest, Dividend, Rental Income and Capital Gaines. Plus, the penalty tax. This is a huge tax increase under the guise of helping uninsured People.
I highly recommend this Hospital in Bangkok to all:
http://www.bumrungrad.com/
Mom, look at me, I'm a stupid American who blames the "government intervention" for the high costs of health care, instead of blaming the greed of the big corporations in the business of health insurance.
Mom, all the other countries in the world have public health care systems, considered a basic human right, but I am proud to live in the United States, the only country in the world that denies this basic right to its citizens. And I blame the government for the high prices charged by private health insurance corporations!
Americans are schizophrenic...
Good night, when are people going to understand the concept of a right.
Fundamentally, a right must exist independent of anyone else. If it were a right, a man trapped on a desert island would have the same right as someone in New York.
The desert island man has free speech, freedom of religion, right to bear arms. No one can stop him, it is his right. No one has to support him,. His right exists independently of others.
How, pray tell, is he to receive his right to health care? Has he been denied his right? Who is to blame? Who is responsible?
Can you not see that health care can never be a right. It depends on 1) him paying for it (which should not be necessary for a right), 2) someone providing it for free (and if he does not, he is violating our desert island man's right), or 3) someone else paying for it (which conflicts with his right to privacy, his right to freedom of association, his right to property, and potentially his right to freedom of religion).
A right cannot require action on the part of another (else it would violate their right).
wish you were a judge anonymouse.
one point for consideration: "A right cannot require action on the part of another (else it would violate their right)."
...unless that another voluntarily chooses of their free will to act in service of the other, yes?
as a corallary, i even have a right to practice 'socialism' if i choose to as long as i do not impose my socialism on anyone who does not voluntarily choose to accept it, correct?
Thanks for the compliment.
You've almost got it, but I think are confusing a couple of issues (no offense intended).
"...unless that another voluntarily chooses of their free will to act in service of the other, yes? "
That is either a charitable act or an act of contract. Either is a good and noble thing (regardless of what Ayn Rand might say about charity).
But that does not give the recipient a right to that service. It is a gift or a contractual obligation, not a right.
Practicing socialism would be difficult by oneself, but if you mean do you have the right to join a commune? Of course, that is freedom of association.
The apostles lived communally (though they did not give everything in all cases). But they did this by choice, not because they were forced to do so.
no offense taken. this is like attending a class in constitutional law in an alternate universe where the constitution is actually respected. it's refreshing to discuss these matters.
ok, i understand that my gift is not his right to have, but it is my right to give if i choose to do so yes? in other words, he's not infringing on my rights in my act of giving.
contracts are a whole other can of worms but still working on the same principle i would assume, that of voluntary action.
and whether or not it's good or noble in someone's eyes, as long as my act doesn't infringe upon the rights of another, i have a right to do so.
"Practicing socialism would be difficult by oneself" perhaps too easy. what i'm wondering if it's possible to practice 'socialism' effectively without infringing on another's sovereign rights. it seems the hippocratic oath is butting heads with the constitution and i wonder if there's a way to make them more compatible with each other without having to choose between either/or.
of course, this is all just theoretical, cuz in reality, it's all about the dolla dolla bill y'all.
Absolutely, giving a gift would not infringe on the others right. He could accept it or not. I fyou forced him to take it (for his own good), then his right is violated. But if he is willing to accept it, absolutely.
I don't see how socialism could be reconciled with freedom except as a voluntary affilliation, like the utopian communes of the 1800s. They didn't work out (due to human nature), but there was nothing incompatible with freedom. People joined freely, and left freely. So it is really a contractual arrangement (just as, I would argue, the US is a contractual agreement between states to which they could freely depart if they so chose, i.e., secede).
But there is no way a socialist society could be free under any other terms. Say there is a non-taxpayer, a recipient of society's gifts. He may not want certain aspects deemed by society to be to his benefit. Perhaps he is not allowed to smoke. Perhaps he has to see a doctor twice a year. If he does not want it, but is forced to receive it, he is not free.
Or there might be a taxpayer forced to pay for a health care system against his will. Society as a whole might (in theory) be better off, but his right to his property was infringed.
Not perfect examples, but the point is, absent a voluntary contract, socialism cannot avoid infringing on people's rights (even if they are a beneficiary).
But you're right, in many ways it is moot as no one takes it seriously.
au contraire, i think they're perfect examples of our current condition. and i would also concur that the US is a voluntary contractual agreement between the states. one could make the case that the income tax is a voluntary contractual agreement as well.
yeah, the history of the 19th century american utopias is quite fascinating stuff. failures yes, but honorable failures methinks, as at least they were experimenting with collective frameworks but with a hardy respect for individual sovereignity & human rights.
i always thought Steinbeck captured the potential of America best in East of Eden when he had one of his characters quote the Hebrew word timshel: 'thou mayest'.
ah yes, here it is: http://timshel.org/timshel.php
thanks for the thought-provoking conversation a.mouse. it's good to talk rationally about these things, as it helps one understand where to choose the ground to stand on.
cheers
Same here. Enjoyed it
Europe and Canada are able to keep their costs low in part because US costs are high.
-With drugs, the USA is the expensive McDonald's on the side of the freeway that sells the same product as the small town McDonald's with the low prices. If you force-limit the profit margins of the drug companies - incentives will be less to develop the next great drug. Think of how many additional human life years Lipitor is responsible for alone.
-Many European/Canadian healtcare stats compare unfavorably to those of the USA and that's just a cold fact. Survivability rates are signifigantly lower outside the US for many forms of cancer and other diseases.
-Infant mortality - because there is no universal standard here the US looks worse than it is because they have the strictest standards. A newborn is most vulnerable in the earliest seconds, minutes, hours, days of life. In the US a baby is "born" when he/she starts breathing. In Europe every country has their own standard but most babies aren't considered "born" until much later, including after he/she has left the hospital or is months old. Babies who die before they are officially "born" even if they have been alive for months outside the womb, aren't counted in mortality stats. Presto, better infant mortality stats.
-Life expectancy...isn't that impressive in the US compared to the rest of the developed world. This is simply because Americans are comparatively fatter and less active than their foreign counterparts and they have a higher incidence of problems associated with this fact. That's not that the same thing as measuring the quality and accessibility of lifesaving medical treatments. You can live a long time limping around waiting for a hip replacement in the UK. Besides, Europeans are getting fatter by the day so this will change.
-Becoming a doctor in the US is hard, requires many years of difficult work and is very expensive. By making the medical profession less profitable you will get fewer not more smart, quality people going into medicine.
-It would be great if we had a simple, affordable and BASIC healtcare option, but part of the reason Mr. Krasting's is so expensive is that he is forced to buy a plan that covers all kinds of crap he probably doesn't want or need like weird diets, sex change operations, addiction recovery and eventually...abortion.
If you think US healthcare is expensive now, just wait until you see how expensive it is when it's free.
+1
the US health care system is decades behind other western civilizations. So what, if you dont need it, lets just hope nothing bad happens.
I don't have any "healthcare" insurance and don't intend to purchase any till I am alive. Period.
Newyorker living in Toronto for last 10 years and for the record, they give away health insurance here.
I just had surgery in November. My daughter is going in for minor surgery next week.
Didn't cost a dime. And I didn't stand in a line or deal with a single piece of paperwork. I have never had to deal with a claim or an adjuster. Of course you have to work the system but no stress about going bankrupt.
Nobody is stressed about it here. Of course people complain. I slipped on the ice and broke my arm and friends were upset that I had to wait 4 hours at the hospital to get finished but try any downtown hospital in US for non-emergeny care. My attitude was "hey, it was free"
Overall, not bad. And crime is minimal. Too much Hockey though.
For a New Yorker you seem pretty stupid to make comparisons like this.
Canada has a bit more people than the State of Californica and New York combined. Your statistics are a piece of crap in comparing them to a country growing to 500,000,000 in couple of decades.
You need a lesson in relativity.
which is exactly the reason why the individual states should be responsible for any sort of public healthcare system, if there were to be one, not the feds. but this argument is a waste of time and energy for all concerned, cuz there ain't gonna be one, period.
How are you paid? Self-employed? By direct deposit from a large employer? Do you have good second of third lines of income? Do you have much saved or invested?
I'd just walk away. From the U.S., if possible, but otherwise from any healthcare scheme. Just hide, just refuse to pay. Pay out of pocket for routine stuff. Make sure you have little they can seize. Hide the savings, overseas, without a paper trail. Have the house in wife's name. Or kids'. Or rent until you can emigrate. Become self-employed, somewhere, somehow...
Exactly. The US is officially a PRISON now.
There is nothing wrong with healthcare that cannot be traced to government meddling.
People complain about the prices of drugs -- but if passing the FDA's bureaucracy costs $4M+ and requires a specific condition -> prescription linkage, what would you expect? You can get great deals on reimportation from Canada....but it's based on the restraint of trade in the US.
You can complain about the triage at your emergency center -- but the government insists that anyone who behaved responsibly toward catastrophic care be treated the same as someone in the country illegally with no assets who put themselves at great risk and hit bad luck.
It's complicated and costly to see one's primary-care physician, but a large part of the complication and cost come from the treatment of medicaid patients, which you also subsidize.
You can continue this forever, but the standard remedy for all these ills caused by governmental interference is......another governmental bandaid on top.
fyi-these are recent Canada healthcare costs/person:
Canada health premiums
http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/msp/infoben/premium.html
Over $28000/yr income:[subsidized if under]
1 person $54/mo
2 persons $96/mo
over 2...108/mo
I understand it is a workable system for all. Any complainers have the option to simply buy their own private-plan on top of it...if they can afford it.
It is a decency-based system.
I know many Canadians that have come to the US for major operations in the last year alone. One asked me "What is the US thinking?" vis a vis health care reform. But we have Pelosi who said (I paraphrase) If the gate is closed, we'll go over. Sounds more like thuggery than democratic representation of the people.
Canada has a bit more people than the State of Californica and New York combined. Your statistics are a piece of crap in comparing them to a country growing to 500,000,000 in couple of decades.
You need a lesson in relativity.
I do not think private plans exist in Canada. I also beleive that only one province allows doctors to practice in private and not through the system.
And you fools have been paying for insurance this whole time. It's not my fault I cant get a lean insurance option. I'm not paying almost $5,000 a year for an eye examination and a teeth cleaning. I don't use the healthcare system. And I pay cash when I do. Multiply that times 8 and that's a nice chunk of dough not pissed away.
So you say what happens in a catastrophe. Well. I go to the Jamie Dimon Card. Bailout BABY!!!!!!!!!!
You might want to consider exactly why we remain wedded to a laughable employer based system.
This reform will enrich insurance companies. Period. Some reform, huh? I feel so much better!
It is a free country, though...why not roll the dice and not insure your family???
Holy SHIT! Obama! Obama! Obama!
This bill seems to be pissing off liberals more than his murdering of middle-eastern peoples. FDL has helped kill enthusiasm on the left by spreading a PDF titled Fact Sheet: The Truth About the Health Care Bill (via FDL).
Just stop and think for a minute.
Why is health care so expensive?
Why is college tuition so expensive?
Has the government's involvement in both of these markets resulted in any significant distortions that result in these out of control costs?
Why have Lasik eye surgery and cosmetic procedures become less expensive over time?
Why do we believe that a problem caused by government intervention can be fixed by additional government intervention?
It is like many reactions (chemical, nuclear) - once you pass a critical point, the thing runs away. The size and scope of our Government has passed that critical threshold such that they cause the problems then intervene and regulate on the other end. Repair shop rackets would 'fix' one thing only to find another half a dozen things wrong. Health care reform reform time?
I think it's funny that the original poster is pissed at the Dems. Does he really think things would have been better for him if the Repubs had got in for another four years? They're two sides of the same coin and your vote doesn't really mean anything since it's a one-party state divided in two.
"I think it's funny that the original poster is pissed at the Dems. Does he really think things would have been better for him if the Repubs had got in for another four years? "
I've said plenty of nasty things about the R's over the years. They suck. But the dems suck in such a vastly greater way, I can't even begin to compare them. Occasionally R's get something right. I don't remember that last time the Dems didn't get something completely wrong. Do you think this monstrosity of a health bill would have passed with an R majority?
What Republican majority? When the republicans were in power they had every chance in the world for 12 years to do something constructive, sensible, and effective and what did they do KNOWING that a democratic victory would turn on the most expensive thing in a family's budget? What did they do?
I'll tell you what they did they fucked around and did absolutely nothing. For 12 years they did nothing and a lot worse. It almost seems like it was intentional. That the Global power elites want this, the one worlders behind the curtain want country after country to be a grey, communist-style orb with only themselves enjoying the best things that life has to offer and nothing but conetmpt for the 7 billions of great unwashed we are about to become.
+98.6
The GOP is hoping to ride Obama/Dem aversion back into power, but notice they have the same team in power, Boehner, McConnell, etc. as last time. Time to clean house if they want my support.
We need more Pauls, DeMints, Ryans, and Bachmanns and less of the old moderate GOP establishment.
Opposition to Obama and Dems is important and necessary, but to gain support they need a positive agenda and need to believe in it.
well, thats the price American pay for mindless slavishness to Capitalist extremism
it's quasi-regulated capitalism... certainly not a chance of working... as 'true' capitalism might.
pure evil.
similar to the USSR version of communism vs the 'real' thing.
both manifestations forget to factor in human nature, and are doomed to fail.
Bruce,
Aren't there any catastrophic plans with high deductibles in NY? Get a Health Savings Account. If you and your family are healthy and don't have bad health habits or hereditary illnesses, you shouldn't even need to see a doctor except maybe once a year for a minor checkup. $58,000 a year will pay for quite a few checkups, even some minor surgery. You are a super smart guy that should be able to figure this out.
"Get a Health Savings Account. "
Did HSA's survive the huns last week? I know progressives hate HSA's and FSA's with a vengeance.
I'm expecting to discover that my HSA disappears here someday soon.
I thought the hatred of comprehensives by the huns was kind of hard to figure out. But I finally did. Our rulers want our 401K's. Without a comprehensive, anyone who hits a serious long term illness is going to have to tap the401K.
So it lets them confiscate my 401K to subsidize our rulers plans without actually having to confiscate it directly. Instead, they just make comprehensive insurance unaffordable so that they get the 401K money paying into the system anyway.
Clever and, frankly, evil.
Denninger on the 22nd wrote what he is going to do.
Overly briefly, he says that he currently only has a catastrophic plan. This will not be allowed under Obamacare (K. D. said he read the whole +/- 2200 pages), so he is going to just pay the fine (some 20% - 25% of being insured) and just 'run naked' (uninsured therefore saving him some $20,000 [my wife & I pay about $15,000 / yr], and that insurance pemiums will go up some 20% - 40% per year for the next few. He is thinking is that he is at low risk and can save up that money in case something comes later. The twist: once the O Plan comes into full effect, if he gets cancer or HIV or heart disease, he can then run and get insurance because they will not be able to bar him for a pre-existing condition!
Hahaha! He may have found a good (but slightly risky) way to GAME the new health "reform".
I love Denninger and read the post to which you refer, DoChen. He and this site are two of my daily must reads. That said, "once the O Plan comes into full effect . . . they will not be able to bar him for a pre-existing condition," has bait-and-switch written all over it. It does if one attributes intent/motive, rather than inept hackery, to all that TPTB do.
I read that too. I think he's right and I'm thinking of doing it if I can't find a catastrophic plan to replace the one that I'm currently in. I just did a quick google search and found a plan similar to mine for $46 a month.
If I was married and had children I'd definitely roll the dice with KD's plan as the chance of the whole family going down at the same time is not likely.
Maybe it is time to resurrect the health care delivery model where physicians make 'house calls'. I can easily see an opportunity for doctors to go from one small business to another on a regular basis to act as de facto primary care MDs for the employees. This can be accomplished at a fraction of the cost of an insurance plan and the negotiations would be handled between the MD and the small business. Welcome back, free market capitalism!
This is no panacea, mind you. Employees under this scenarao are still at risk for the costs associated with hospitalization and specialized medical intervention. As Denninger observes, catastrophic coverage (as an insurance option) is no longer available. The elimination of catastrophic coverage availability and the increased taxes on HSA withdrawls were obvious insurance company 'gifts'.
Over time, it should be possible to overcome the catastrophic and specialty care coverage problems with expanded negotiations for more complex and higher cost services.
I am looking forward to seeing how the private marketplace will take advantage of the opportunities that this abomonation of a bill has created.
Wow! I'm only paying $40.58, yes that's $40.58 per month (I'm 42 and single). Though its not the greatest coverage as you can imagine. I locked in the rate 2.5 years ago and have to renew this October, I know its going up because I got a call recently from an agent trying to selling health insurance when I told him I was only paying $40.58 a month he could not believe it.
You don't live in NY, do you?
Props for locking in.
Thanks, but to me it was a no brainer.
Spill. Deductible is?
$10K w/ 50% co-pay. What sucks I've never used it, would've been better off self-insuring.
Ps-- I suppose the fact you'll be charged 40% tax on that plan in about 4 years or so has not hit you yet, Bruce.
Bruce
I have the same insurance company
Mine just went up $90 a month. I use the stupid plan maybe once a year to renew my blood pressure meds.
They really suck! Outrageous!
The Heath Care Bill is the tipping point. There is nothing to bend the cost curve down. Medicare and Medicaid are insolvent and have been expanded. Live in MA where healthcare is mandatory and private insurance premiums are the highest in the country. Mine went up again this year. State can't afford the system. In MA, access to care is difficult. Many of the new state health plans have high deductibles and Medicaid level reimbursement which doctors aren't exactly fighting over. Prepare for the pain. Look on the bright side, at least you don't have Barney Frank as your congressman.