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While Going Broke Has its "Benefits," Ford Workers Reject Contract Changes
According to an AP source and an article in the Wall Street Journal the United Auto Workers gave local Ford unions the weekend to review and ratify contract changes, but as of today, it's a no go.
The UAW and Ford agreed to contract changes weeks ago, but the workers needed to approve the deal, some 41,000 UAW-represented Ford employees.
Ford was seeking to reduce labor costs, bringing them more in-line with rivals GM and Chrysler- both having won concessions from the UAW being bankrupt and all.
Ah, the perils of not being bankrupt.
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I find it rather silly that the Unions heads and Ford management actually thought 41,000 everyday worker bees, would agree to a lowering standard of living for themselves. Ya right... people are gona do that. Are they kidding? Now we can expect, and blame joe six pack for other stupidity when Ford follows GM in the government payroll. It was government that caused great companies like GM to go broke in the first place. GM , even in the fifties was stalled by law suite from Anti trust suits to break up it's so called manopoly. If the government would have stayed out of business they no nothing of the US and it's auto industry would still rule the manufactoring industries and not communist and socialist nations.
I have to agree with Segestan, the odds of those 41,000 being martyr's, willing to suffer for the cause is unlikely. Lowering the US standard of living with be a long violent fight. The US government damned Ford the minute it saved GM. GM is on its 3rd bailout and the US government won't let it fail, even at the expense of Ford.
at no disrepect to Ford's worker bees, the checkered past of Ford's top brass has consistently been ugly, if Ford were rubbed out cuz it couldn't compete agaist a govt GSE,
I'd actually toast to that.
Ford is the only US automaker that I respect, they were at least smart enough to avoid the goverment snare (We are the Gov and we are here to help). Unfortunately for Ford, it will be challanging to compete against a goverment subsidized GM Chrysler should implode and get it over with.
I will never buy a GM product again (I currently own 2). I resent the way the GM investors (bold holders) were treated.
As far a Ford and UAW is concerned, could the union be trying to push Ford into bankruptcy (ala, GM) to obtain a large ownership stake??? It certainly wouldn't suprise me.
I agree Habourcity. Everybody is in line for a pay cut. And a tax hike to support the UAW. Wages have been flat for JS6 since 2000. GM was not allowed to fail because BO has a dream not unlike Hitler's VW beetle. GM got their 3rd bailout for the same reason they will get bailout 4,5,6,and 7 a "car for the people." Ford needs to shut the doors move to a right to work state and start hiring people that want to work!! It took Katrina to end the teachers union in New Orleans and finally children are getting an education instead of an indoctrination. Down here the oil field falls on it's ass like clockwork. When it does the boss man says take a pay cut or your fired! So you take a pay cut, things pick up, you get your old pay back and a raise! Because of your worth as an employee and your loyalty when things were bad. Not because some Gangster said so. Union policy is all about less work, more pay, it's a form of industrial theft and socialist politics. This depression is going to be a long and pain full process. Things like Keynesian economics, unions, and socialism can finally be put to rest for good.
"GM was not allowed to fail because BO has a dream not unlike Hitler's VW beetle"
Stopped reading right there. If you really believe that, you've short circuited your critical thinking skills. There are plenty of effective ways to criticize this administration, and plenty of effective topics, to not have to resort to a comparison that is baseless and stupid. You sully your own arguments with crap like this.
And I guess smart cars were one of Bush's ideas. "Now there is something that might reside in a closed mind"
"GM was not allowed to fail because BO has a dream not unlike Hitler's VW beetle"
On the contrary, it was a brilliant insight.
You think BO doesn't have some eco freak fantasy car in mind for everyone? Whatever he comes up with, look forward to it being smaller and more unpleasant than a bug. Also look forward to having no choice.
GM management made a decision during the good times, to NOT fund the union pension & health plans but instead pay themselves big bonuses for about a decade or so.
Then whoops the good times stopped and funding the funds suddenly become a burden to the bottom line.
Twas managment greed that killed GM, not the unions.
But then you have to blame the unions, since when have educated white male executives ever fucked up anything, it has to be the uneducated workers with all them minorities that messed up the company.
Yea it was the guys that shower after work, not the guys shower before that ran the company into the ground.
You young shits need to read some history, intead of repeating the "blame the unions" meme. It's an intelectually dishonest crutch for the Chicago school mindset; which has just withnessed it's entire philosophy discredited with the economic crash.
Give it up guys, Ayn Ran's devotion to self is wrong.
Einstein was right: ..."Man’s ethical behavior should be effectively grounded on compassion, nurture, and social bonds."...
How long have you worked for the UAW, OG?
The "young shits" know their history here- that's why they put most of the blame on unions when it comes to killing a company...
If I was management at one of the car companies, I would've looted it too; before the union gang could. They can always get a bailout anyway, right? Meanwhile, management people everywhere will have their salaries decided for them by the Czar. Get it while you can!
Rand was right.
Pimp this, O(riginal)G(angster),
I'm goddamn-sick-and-fucking-tired of EVERYONE pointing fingers at either the GM management team OR the UAW. BOTH OF THEM FUCKED UP !!!
Management was asleep at the wheel, building mega-SUVs, creating multiple brands, creating duplicated models, and all kinds of micro-niches which added very little value to the GM brand, yet created a TREMENDOUS AMOUNT of unnecessary overhead. Bottom line, GM fat cats are responsible for allowing the GM business itself to get fat and bloated.
ALSO, the UAW was completely successful in raping both management AND SHAREHOLDERS in compensation through reduced production quotas, increased wages, and increased benefits. Tell me how GM brass is supposed to improve efficiency when the union successfully negotiates quotas stating that a days labor can be completed after only 4 to 6 hours of actual work, allowing their employees to take the remainder of the day as effective paid time off?! Only in entitlement-laden America does that "dream" become a reality.
If GM mgmt paid themselves excessive bonuses, then they are wrong. Likewise, the fact that the UAW held on to compensation packages in the 2000s that were uncompetitive and unrealistic from as far back as the 1970s/80s, isn't that the kettle calling the pot black?
And as for Ayn Rand/Einstein... I see Einstein's quote as COMPLETELY AGREEING with Rand! For man to be behave ethically, understanding the interconnectedness of social bonds, what greater responsibility does man have to his fellow man other than to put forth the absolute maximum of which he is capable? Further, provided that man accomplishes that, by default he in entitled to EVERY SINGLE MONETARY BENEFIT that comes his way. Neither GM management nor the UAW can claim they upheld their responsibilities.
I have one question for you: Do you believe that man should be accountable for his own actions? Regardless of what anyone thinks, every discussion on economics, politics, and religion boils down to that question.
I eagerly await your response.
If you were to add up all the bonuses paid out to management over the entire history of GM, I doubt it would come close to 1 year's worth of healthcare & pension payments for GM. Face it, the union bankrupted the company just like they bankrupted so many other companies in this country. Next to fall will be the state governments and I wonder who the union shills will blame then. Can't blame management teams and their bonsues or hedge funds when NY, NJ or CA implode under the weight of all those union obligations and bloated & overpaid unionized workforce.
Don't you think that it's irrational that as the technology develops and labor productivity grows the salaries and standards of living of general public should go down?
Something is deeply wrong that with all excess production capacity more and more people struggle to make ends meet.
The problem is not high salaries of Ford workers, the problem is that with high productivity of labor there will always be more people looking for jobs than job positions that industry can offer. As a result letting market forces to decide the salary levels will inevitably bring these salaries down to an unsustainable level.
The message from the top of our society is clear; I'm gettin' mine no matter what and everyone else be damned. A common asian proverb that you will anywhere find from Turkey to China goes as follows; The fish rots from the head down.
Exactly! This is also the way that California is going to solve its financial crisis. It won't. Everyone will do their very best to protect their standard of living and screw over everyone else that they can. It will be a long and painful experience for most people.
Exactly! And when did the fish start rotting?
**** When they allowed women in the workplace ****
And what was the result of allowing women in the workplace?
A workforce of psychologically neutered males(Tyler Durdens) who do not want to upset the females in the workplace for legal and promotional reasons.
This walking on eggshell syndrome is the cause of the massive loss of manufacturing jobs in the US. Companies who actually produce something have to shift the liability of heavy, hard work offshore to smarter countries who do not allow castration of their "heavy lifters".
The smart jews(Gloria STEINem) thought that adding women to the workplace would offer uber-exploitation opportunities for her fellow jew exploiters.
We are now seeing how wrong Gloria was. Put a burka on the bitch and teach her to walk 10 paces behind her master.
Ah yes, those pesky, anti-American unions. Let's blame them, we usually do. Yes, the reason American auto-makers can't compete internationally are because of the sky high wages of the UAW. It's not because the big 3, over the past 5 decades, have systimatically worked to crush any and all universal health care bills becuase they were actually PROFITING from providing workers with health care, and now that health care is bankrupting them let's continue to blame those damn unions as to why American autos can't compete.
Exactly. And of course the problem has NOTHING to do with a piss-poor product and terrible marketing/management. Let's just keep blaming the unions. *eyeroll*
I rented a 2009-2010 Impala while on the Big Island. The POS drivers door lock actuator did not work! This is a brand new car, leather interior, the works. I'm thinking that the quality control for American cars is still not there, even in bankruptcy.
The faster the Unions dies, the better America will be.
If you chart union membership vs. inflation-adjusted wages, you'll realize you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
Unions have been dying for decades and 95% of America has gotten royally fucked.
But hey, maybe everything in this country will be perfect when the very last union dies; it's just like the war on drugs; we'll win, someday, just keep on persevering!
you'll realize you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
Thats no way to win friends, and influence people...
Non-ag union membership, from 1964-present, from 30% to ~12%. Average income, from $45k to $55k, inflation adjusted. Now factor in the tremendous productivity gains over the same period through technology, and you can go fuck yourself, geopol, as your "no fucking clue" is, as usual, unsubstantiated.
http://voteview.ucsd.edu/images/Union_Membership_1930-2005.jpg
http://www.visualizingeconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/avg-income-2006.j...
and you can go fuck yourself, geopol, as your "no fucking clue"
You need to come out of your shell,.. be more aggressive, I'm sure you have something to say thats relevant.. keep trying.
That's ok, I just read all your posts in a Gilda Radner voice and it's cool. Might I suggest a Rosanna Dana icon for you?
Did you really?? Hum me a few bars..
Is that really you??? the hydra armed green weeper??
Now now boys, play nice with each other. After all, we'd like to think we're a few steps above the Yahoo message boards.
<sarcasm>
CD Trace the thread back, you'll see I didn't start this. Yahoo MB Never been there,,, But I do take exception to BULLIES.. I did what a man is supposed to under these circumstances...
Thanx for the help
<sarcasm>
now overlay that with the percentages of companies that employ over 10K people in manufacturing that went under...what is the percentage of union vs non-union?
maybe people realized that unions are friendly to members when times are good and happy to cut their members loose when the s--- hits the fan...in essence members get jack in exchange for their money...
AFA productivity gains, just because you work at a place pushing buttons, you should be compensated more because an executive or engineer developed some new technology that makes you more productive...typical union thought..."hey there is a lot of money in here, you should just give me more because it is here"...nevermind that you didnt start the company, dont contribute to the strategic decison making process and could be replaced by a well trained monkey...
As i see it you wages went up after being adjusted for inflation...not bad...STFU
The faster the Unions dies ... the poorer Americans will be.
Human's memory is too short. Last century cycle of problems stemming from few getting too rich many getting ugly poor haven't taught any lesson.
Another bloodbath is likely needed once more to make obvious things clear.
Standard of living for most people based on the salary that they earn. With permanent excess production capacity and permanent unemployment levels never going lower than 4-5 % it's only a government regulation and unions that can keep wages at reasonable levels.
Hungry people are dangerous.
rich people employ other people...how many people do poor people employ?
I would assume the door lock actuator, the switch, and maybe the wiring were all made overseas. Granted, it might have been unplugged which would then be a union/USA fault. But you possibly lay blame in the wrong place.
In being sarcastic; you have found truth.
The reason American auto-makers can't compete is because they've had actual competition for about 35 years. "Crushing" universal health care doesn't have a damn thing to do with it, considering that the pension funds and lowered sales due to the influx of foreign companies into the auto market are just as much of an albatross.
It was easy for both labor and management to ride high on the hog when they were the only major global player following a world war that decimated the industrial economies of their global competitors, in an economy that was based on the perception of perpetually cheap oil. Everyone was able to get fat when they had a virtual monopoly in the national market.
Both labor (primarily the labor leaders) and the corporate suits need to realize that it's not the 1950s anymore. The party's been over for a long damn time.
"The reason American auto-makers can't compete is because they've had actual competition for about 35 years"
That competition is on a vastly uneven playing field because it is international, and therefore subject to international monetary policy, inconsistent regulations in nations, international politics, etc.
Competition between Company X and Company Y in Nation A is vastly different than competition between Company X in Nation A and Company Y in Nation B.
There are so many variables affect international competition that pinning it all on the auto-maker is disingenuous. What's worse is pinning it on the workers, who by-and-large have NO SAY in what products are manufactured, what strategic decisions are made by management, etc.
But yet, when shit hits the fan, it's always the worker's pay and pensions and such that are pointed at by some folks, believing if we just would shit on our blue collar neighbors and get them to accept a lower of standard of living, then we can compete against nations who have stronger worker protections, better worker pay, and better worker health insurance. It's comical that people point to Japan and Europe as example of how American auto-maker's suck (and thus labor should suffer), but completely ignore the fact that Japanese and European workers are better treated than here.
"...but completely ignore the fact that Japanese and European workers are better treated than here."
YCH, you must be a proud product of our unionized, government-controlled, liberal education system --- you know, the one that leads the world at producing brilliant students.
Unfortunately, here are some facts for you to choke on:
(1) About 2/3 of the cars Toyota sells in the U.S. are produced ... right here in the U.S. [see e.g., http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/12/american.cars]
(2) Virtually none of the workers for Toyota in the U.S. are unionized! [see e.g., http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Autos/story?id=1334996, "That's a drain that Japanese manufacturers Toyota, Nissan and Honda are not paying out, as most use non-union workers, even for U.S.-based manufacturing plants."]
As I've said to someone else, bolting on parts to a Japanese or [other foreign country] design does not count as US made. At least the Big Three (GM/Ford/Chrysler) don't have that problem.
That's just dumb.
It doesn't matter where it was designed, it matters where it was MADE. US made...made...get it? Made.
There are a lot few jobs in design than in manufacturing.
Buy some stock in the 'foreign' manufacturers and they'll be less foreign to you.
The big three design & make vehicles all over the world with parts from all over the world. They are not some pro-America group of do-gooders.
"That competition is on a vastly uneven playing field because it is international, and therefore subject to international monetary policy, inconsistent regulations in nations, international politics, etc."
Sorry, but that's nothing but deflection, and the disingenuousness is no your part for claiming that the auto-makers are somehow victims of some unfair competitive standards. It does nothing to change the fact that American auto companies had their monopolistic market share in this country torched after the oil crisis. The foreign auto companies jumped on that weakness, established a reputation for quality, and are now firmly entrenched in the nation's auto economy. Whining about "uneven playing fields" doesn't alter this one iota.
Up until last year, companies adapted to changes in the market or got toasted; now it's expected that Uncle Sugar is going to bail them out because they are "too big to fail." The entire American auto industry, from the CEO on down to the janitor sweeping the floor, needs to get it through their heads that the world does not owe them a living.
"But yet, when shit hits the fan, it's always the worker's pay and pensions and such that are pointed at by some folks, believing if we just would shit on our blue collar neighbors and get them to accept a lower of standard of living, then we can compete against nations who have stronger worker protections, better worker pay, and better worker health insurance. "
Well, I'm sorry you're so bent out of shape about the workers being blamed, but in a union-dominated industry, the perception is that the workers have a stake in the quality of the product being produced. Pin that one on union leaders who are much more concerned about how the financial pie is sliced up than in whether the company is practicing good business methods, is improving the product, and who should be proactively working with management to ensure they can compete with foreign nations.
Guess what--if the product isn't being sold, the workers have no company, no pension, no health insurance, and no protections. That paycheck doesn't just magically appear every week for no good reason. So like it or not, there is an ownership factor that unions need to start taking into account if they want to become more relevant against foreign competition, and they need to be hammering this during meetings with the suits.
Or, if the union workers and their leaders are that dissatisfied with how they are being treated, they also have the option of starting up their own auto company and showing people how its supposed to be done. Given the current power structure in Congress and the White House, don't you think that such an endeavor would garner financial support via grants and legislation? Or is it simply easier to sit back, blame management (blame that is not undeserved, in my opinion, since they are the administrators) and rely on self-regarded perceptions of nobility and innocence to see them through financial hard times?
+1
Yes, let's fuck the American auto worker, who manufactures actual objects instead of imaginary derivatives, and instead bail out the makers of imaginary derivatives so they can take home record bonuses. After all, our workers should just get used to the fact that the worldwide market for manufacturing labor is virtually no money at all in slave-labor conditions under a totalitarian Government, and expect things to get much, much worse. But hey, they should all just go back to school and become Doctors or Lawyers or starbucks barristas.
Bunch of freeloaders, those auto workers and their unions, not like our patriotic financial industry.
BOTH the unions AND the bankers are parasites... BOTH dependant upon political connections for survival. BOTH use misdirection and propaganda to try to deflect the public's justified WRATH. Individuals from BOTH groups see themselves as essential to everyone else's wellbeing - and have a hero complex - see above. BOTH would do America a favor, by disbanding.
It's the political connections that are the problem, and making constituent group fight constituent group is the way those politicians enhance the value of those connections.
Instead of disbanding Group X or Group Y, we should disconnect all *groups* from political connections. It is the individual voter who should have the only political connection, not the unions, nor the [banking] corporations, nor the special interest groups.
Until campaign finance reform, term limits, and the two-party duopoly are confronted, disbanding this group or that group is only misdirected effort.
And Job #1 is making sure our Supreme Court bench isn't going to keep using the Constitution as a shield against that kind of reform, because we'll NEVER get Congress to pass a Constitutional Amendment (or convene a Constitutional Convention) if it looks like Congresscritters' power is at stake.
This is a systemic problem, much deeper than just unions or bankers.
And Job #1 is making sure our Supreme Court bench isn't going to keep using the Constitution as a shield against that kind of reform,
You can't be serious??
Yes, job #1 is making sure Supreme Court nominees don't use the Constitution to prevent reform of the influence Corporations have on our political system.
For example, the Constitution was used to equate money with speech, and (in a 5-4 decision) prevent a state from limiting the number of terms of its own Federal representatives. If you do actually research things, geopol, you can read about this kind of stuff at:
Buckley v Valeo, 424 U.S. 1 (1976),
U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779 (1995),
Or you can just pop on here and add nothing to the discussion, with comments like "You can't be serious" and "You don't have a clue", etc., all without providing analysis, data, etc.
It is kind of cute. I guess you don't work in a profession that requires actual analysis, or either that, you just don't have the time to actually support anything you post with research.
Cheers.
Or you can just pop on here and add nothing to the discussion, with comments like "You can't be serious" and "You don't have a clue", etc., all without providing analysis, data, etc.
I guess you don't work in a profession that requires actual analysis
I never said you don't "have a clue". That was parroting your line...
and you can go fuck yourself, geopol, as your "no fucking clue"
As for anaysis...
I'm retired from the CIA..... And live in Maine with all my retired peers. MU HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yes, job #1 is making sure Supreme Court nominees don't..
And Job #1 is making sure our Supreme Court bench..
by You Cant Handle...on Sat, 10/31/2009 - 20:18
#116328
I'm not falling for this crap.... Is it nominees?, or bench?, for a man with granular analysis, there is a distinction... no??
Madoff Rips SEC, Calls Shapiro a “Dear Friend”
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2009/10/30/jailhouse-interview-madoff-rips-se...
Well I am very interested to find out Ford's Q3 cash burn. IMHO, Ford's #1 2009/2010 priority, is and remains, aggressively cutting costs. #2 increasing market share.
Based on my experience with Ford, unfortunately, cutting costs mean cutting quality. Simply put, the reality for a large domestic car company; achieving superior quality is very expensive. Expensive in terms of leadership, organization, product development, and manufacture. Quality is like a chain, any weak link and you will not achieve your quality goals. In light of Fords's financial position, I think management understands the challenges in competing on quality. Perhaps quality will come up in the Q3 presentation.
perhaps Rattner will be in the audience
Germany or Japan are communist nations? The US government is somehow responsible for GM making lousy cars? For the recent show of the auto city execs flying to washington to beg for money---in separate corporate jets?
Might want to try blaming something besides the US government for every problem in this world.
FYI, Somalia is a good place for those who do not believe in government. Those who harken to the theory that its all the government\democrats fault should move to Somalia immediately. You'll be able to test your interesting world view directly. Also, you'll spare the rest of us the burden of carrying you and listening to inaccurate whining.
> FYI, Somalia is a good place for those who do not believe in government.
That's a classic false dichotomy.
Why would we "try blaming something else" when the culprit is always clear (to the wise)?
I would love to move to Somalia and test a true free republic and free market...but all of the Somalians would have to leave first...
The union saw they got a heck of a deal in the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies, with the feds protecting their pensions and the unions ending up with ownership and a shareholder, the U.S., willing to push union favorable policies- if they can take down Ford, wiping out the shareholders and debthoders and getting the same deal as in GM and Chrysler, they are in the catbird's seat, for 3-4 years until the companies crater again.
I think it's a matter of when, not if, Ford joins GM and Chrysler in bankruptcy. They have an ugly balance sheet, industry volume is down 40% in the U.S. and they have a mix shift problem. Even if Ford manages to develop more small cars that people want to buy, they probably will have to sell 3 to 5 of them to make what they're used to making on one F-150 truck. The F-150 series is the only reason Ford didn't go bankrupt 5 or 10 years ago. With the homebuilding industry down and out, full sized truck sales are not going to be in the neighborhood of what they once were for the foreseeable future.
GM and Fords shift to larger and larger vehicles was motivated by profits. Much like Bear Stearns MBS strategy was motivated by profits. In a sense, proper corporate leadership must embrace capitalistic greed in the right measure. It can be a difficult balance between risk and reward.
Also, there was a huge tax loop hole for 6000 lb vehicles that also skewed the market. The Toyota Land Cruiser was designed to fit nicely into this segment.
Actually, I think Ford won the BIG SUV prize with the Excursion. It was massive.
For GM and Ford, in terms of product cycle time, what was unforeseen was $4.00 per gallon of gas. But, moving ahead they are reacting to this possibility occurring again. But, profitably competing in the smaller car segment will be very difficult compared to trucks.
Really, at this time more than ever, the domestics as well as foreign auto makers are trying to understand the North American market in terms of unit sales. One possibility, not mentioned often, is a relative collapse of the NA market during consumer debt deleveraging. The reality of a 10 Million SAAR or below demand, will mean somebody will lose capacity.
Well, we will see what Ford's cash burn looks like in Q3 on Monday. If cash is back in black for Q3, I will be very impressed.
The billionaires who own the workers' debt cannot risk unanticipated inflation harming their expected returns, so deflating wages and home values are a necessary counterpart to the ongoing games with the value of the dollar.
Homes are a use asset, not an investment......
-1000
please leave ZH forever as you bring nothing to the table but rethoric that makes no sense, your 15 minutes of fame here are gone. Please go back to yahoo message boards before you comment here.
Tyler commentor like this devalue this site
unanticipated inflation?
By whom?
a friend of mine who goes to Vegas to blow money has always said "its beats going to a psychiatrist" or paying alimony.
on Sat, 10/31/2009 - 16:48
#116213
The faster the Unions dies, the better America will be.
- reply
- flag as junk (0)
by You Cant Handle...on Sat, 10/31/2009 - 17:29
#116235
If you chart union membership vs. inflation-adjusted wages, you'll realize you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
And this is the way you seem compelled to respond to contrary viewpoints... I'm really proud of you...
I think "You Cant Handle"
Anyone else notice the increased advertising by GM on conservative talk radio? I'm talking about GM and Ally Bank (GMAC). GM has been a sponsor of Rush Limbaugh and I believe I recently heard an advertisement for Ally on Sean Hannity's program. This looks to be an effort to pacify the right wing while extorting the left at the same time.
I haven't seen the balance sheet for Ford but typically a 40% downturn with a high fixed cost business model is death (depreciation allowance).
Toyota and Nissan are on the verge of bankruptcy as well. Bubbles are a bitch... Last man standing wins. Many foreign autos have more US labor and part content than the big three (don't kill the wrong messenger).
US is still world's leading manufacturing country (in terms of output). (How many times does the press report that) The last 20 years has forced any industry that couldn't be automated to be offshrored (if it had non-removable labor content like textiles or furniture, it was gone). The US is highly productive in manufacturing by output and cost - but the jobs are no longer there. IMHO, This is really Minsky's dilemna (in terms of employement) - Ever increasing productivity leads to more people than work. Pick your favorite solution. The future doesn't need us.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy_pr.html
US must develop a fair trade policy (there is no free trade with currency controls) and some way to deploy excess human capital not required by free enterprise.
US is still world's leading manufacturing country (in terms of output) Ya MSM
Then why do we have a trade deficit?
Ever increasing productivity leads to more people than work.
Unless you export to 1.3 billion Chinese.
If the dollar where backed by tangible assets, wage differential would be moot. As we would have a real reserve currency.
Good points,,
Many foreign autos have more US labor and part content than the big three (don't kill the wrong messenger).
Mere part assembly does not count. But if you want to trumpet the South 'til the cows come home, go right on.
US is still world's leading manufacturing country (in terms of output). (How many times does the press report that) The last 20 years has forced any industry that couldn't be automated to be offshrored (if it had non-removable labor content like textiles or furniture, it was gone). The US is highly productive in manufacturing by output and cost - but the jobs are no longer there. IMHO, This is really Minsky's dilemna (in terms of employement) - Ever increasing productivity leads to more people than work. Pick your favorite solution. The future doesn't need us.
Or we just need to consider that our future does not include offshoring until it starts visibly and directly(as opposed to indirect and invisible as quoted numerous times) providing a benefit(jobs, and not the minwage ones) towards the displaced.
Because we import more than we export. That's the trade deficit. We still produce more here for domestic consumption than anybody else does in their own country. But, mostly we import low tech items. However, we do need to bring our trade deficit closer to zero.
Key to US auto maker survival is making a car that Americans will buy. But, even if they can do that, increasing productivity will decrease need for human labor over time. The Unions are going to lose jobs. One way or another (through bankruptcy or productivity), more and more assembly jobs will go away. If they try to protect those jobs the non-union plants in the south (TN, AL, MS, SC) which are mostly foreign will put Detroit out of business.
In their defense, the American Production worker is still considered to be the most productive in the world. But, we'll need less of them over time.
Hayeks Conscience
Because we import more than we export. That's the trade deficit. I understand that..If we import more than we export then who is buying all the domestic manufactured goods?? Can't be just Road Island..
We still produce more here for domestic consumption than anybody else does in their own country.
I'm not sure about that stat as it's late and I've had a couple of pops, so I'm not going to research now. But who fills up Walmart, and Target, and Nordstromes, Lawnmower joints, Power generators, Cell Phones, Computers,Televisions, DVD Players,,USB Disk Drives, Disk Drives HDA, Video Cards, PCMCIA Slot a/b Insert utilities, and I could go on until I pass out,, But these have been reversed engineered by our Chinese friends, so to say that these imports are LOW TECH is a stretch...
I have to say..
But, mostly we import low tech items. However, we do need to bring our trade deficit closer to zero.
Key to US auto maker survival is making a car that Americans will buy. But, even if they can do that, increasing productivity will decrease need for human labor over time. The Unions are going to lose jobs. One way or another (through bankruptcy or productivity), more and more assembly jobs will go away. If they try to protect those jobs the non-union plants in the south (TN, AL, MS, SC) which are mostly foreign will put Detroit out of business.
Problem: Where are the folks who don't subscribe to what the imports make (and yes, they're numerous enough to not just dump them) going to go if they try that stunt?
Perhaps the South needs to know that when they kill Detroit, they kill what's left of affordable muscle, unintended consequences and all that.
In their defense, the American Production worker is still considered to be the most productive in the world. But, we'll need less of them over time.
You can take care of that problem by not fulfilling that "corrupted wish" of yours.
My father worked in a truck frame company. There were days he told me that he would be called in for overtime just to sleep in a towmotor for 8 hours. So he gets to retire at 53, is now 82 and says today that they never expected to pay pensions fro that long and will continue to recieve until the company doesn't have the corporate name anymore. He was in the Steelworkers union. One year a union negotiation came up and the workers were told to holdout for 2 bucks. The company shut down and took the whole 6 square city block factory to China. Good for some, sux for others.
We are in the midst of a bathtub curve,,, We needed unions 1930-1975,then we didn't 1976-1993. Now we need a mobilization against the pranksters,,, GENERAL STRIKE nation wide.. Spain did it, France did it... There is no other way to mobilize the American people...
General Strike,,, For what ever reason,,why not, make it up as we get close to the District of Criminals, on our rented buses.
No one else will take our country back PERIOD.....................................
These criminals in Washington will not give up this oligarchy easily..
+1
You can't fault Ford for trying to lower costs by bargaining with the UAW. Chances are this won't pass and the plant closure schedule will continue.
Ford's marketing machine is betting that by staying out of the bailed-out group of companies, their resulting public image will help sell vehicles and increase market share. While true to a degree, they still have billions in debt that need to refinanced next year and a "jobless recovery" will not yield much of an increase in sales. Ford is unlikely to turn a profit next year (as forecast) and their borrowing costs are likely to increase.
Look for further expansion outside of the US in places like India, Brazil, and China as the US becomes increasingly less of a consumer-driven economy.
Your dad retired at the right time. I doubt too many working in manufacturing today would relate too many stories like that - either Union or Non-Union. I've seen both sides in the plants I've worked in - Unions who were worthless and tried to do the minimal amount required. And, management who tried to screw everybody and keep the rewards for themselves. Theft is theft - no matter who does it. I think people would be well served to move away from idealogy and just call a spade a spade. In the case of automakers, there's plenty of blame to go around and it's a case study of how not to run a business from many angles.
I think the more interesting question on wage rates is how we've massively increased productivity over the last 30 years (in terms of output per hour worked) and yet the middle class (the vast bulk of us) have seen flat wages. Where did the money andn wealth go ? (Can't blame that on China).
To Geopol, I won't try to influence you on the research but here's a fun experiment. Walk though your house and think of where all the stuff was made. Then think of where your monthly budget goes. There's a huge amount of dollar churn in just food an consumables (by dollar volume) that are almost exlusively made in this country.
Thankx for the walk through experiment idea,,,,, I will do that tomorrow... I just stumbled across my Norwegian Anchovies on my way to mix another drink.... I think you know where this analysis is going to end up...
I'll post my results on this thread
Ford was the last Auto Company to go union
maybe it will be the first to go non union
Along with Toyota of America
VOICE ONE:
MORE VIOLENCE WAS TO COME. FOR SEVERAL YEARS, AUTOMOBILE WORKERS
HAD BEEN ATTEMPTING TO FORM A LABOR UNION. UNION LEADERS
NEGOTIATED FIRST WITH AMERICA'S TWO OTHER MAJOR AUTOMOBILE
MAKERS: THE CHRYSLER COMPANY AND GENERAL MOTORS. THOSE COMPANIES QUICKLY AGREED TO PERMIT A UNION IN THEIR FACTORIES. THAT LEFT FORD ALONE TO FIGHT AGAINST THE UNION. AND FIGHT HE DID.
VOICE TWO:
IN NINETEEN-THIRTY-SEVEN, UNION ORGANIZERS WERE PASSING OUT
PAMPHLETS TO WORKERS AT THE FORD FACTORY. COMPANY SECURITY
GUARDS STRUCK. THEY WERE LED BY THE CHIEF OF SECURITY, HARRY
BENNETT.
HARRY BENNETT KNEW NOTHING ABOUT CARS. BUT HE DID KNOW WHAT HENRY FORD WANTED DONE. AND HE DID IT. BENNETT'S POWER CAME FROM HENRY.
THE ONLY PERSON WHO MIGHT HAVE HAD THE POWER TO STOP BENNETT WAS
HENRY'S SON, EDSEL, WHO WAS PRESIDENT OF THE COMPANY. BUT EDSEL
HIMSELF WAS FIGHTING HENRY AND HIS UNWILLINGNESS TO CHANGE.
BENNETT'S POWER IN THE COMPANY CONTINUED TO GROW. HIS VIOLENCE
AGAINST THE UNION OF AUTOMOBILE WORKERS ALSO GREW.
THE FORD MOTOR COMPANY DID NOT AGREE TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE UNION
UNTIL NINETEEN-FORTY-ONE. HENRY FORD ACCEPTED AN AGREEMENT. IF HE
HAD NOT, HIS COMPANY WOULD HAVE LOST MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS.
Explain the Battle of the Overpass, and why Ford's security detail that were far off of their property.
Oh, wait. You just want to justify thuggery, whether it be by fist or by hired-gun lawyer.
America’s penchant for “big” has done us in. Blame cannot be assigned to just one party. The room is full of big dicks – Company management, unions AND particularly government.
There is plenty of blame to go around in post-GM forensics.
Size DOES matter. Just not the way you want to think.
Yes, we felt superhuman cocky with our large penises. Over time, we got sloppy – forgot how to best use our tool. We devolved into a few big penises simply poking at each other. We blew it.
- penis theory of Detroit auto production
I find it amazing that you guys are so anti-union. The people sucking the life out of your country are not unions but the management who are willing to make a buck at any cost. Unions are not the reason companies are offshoring, it is management greed and unwillingness to pay more than a dollar an hour to the average worker. Without union intervention most of us would still work in the same conditions we now expect the Chinese and Indians to work in just to have a our seventh TV or Blu Ray player.
Funny on this site everyone critises the only force attempting to keep the Bankers of this world from crushing the worker completely. This financial crisis was tailor made for them. I work for a bank in Australia and and I am a union member not all unions are militant and not all unions want to price thier companies out of business as you claim here. I think we should aim our attacks at the heads of Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan, they would love the people to turn on each other plays right into their hands.
Just my two cents worth.
Concerned Aussie.
America is unable to change. It is an unbelievable phenomenon to see. Welcome to the newest US state, the state of entropy
All these pro-Union arguments are such bullshit. If you can't see what the unions have done to production in this country then your not looking.
Your argument hinges on "bonuses" that management got? Is that what killed these companies, really? Just like schools right, it was lack of funding that killed the schools? If only the big three hadn't paid their management those bonuses, then all those stupid decisions wouldn't have been made, is that it?
The big three have had their day and they have failed to compete on all levels, this isn't really that hard to understand, it's called "PROGRESS", (note not "progressive", which is new-speak for standing still), progress as in moving forward and learning from your mistakes and having the courage to change your thinking. Like maybe not paying people to sit around and do nothing, or to kill production lines, even if that means a few people have to either relocate or get new jobs.
Hey! Props to you, concerned Aussie! I am a proud Unionized IBEW Electrician and I thank you. There is a substantial amount of neo-cons on ZH who blame Unions for the dire straits America how fallen into. They fail to take into account that it is the corrupt anti-Labor Republican party who whilst masquerading as pro-small Government actually increased the size and cost of our Government, allowing unsurpassed illegal immigration, bloating the military industrial complex (how fucking fruitful was that?), deregulating industry (airlines, banking, real estate etc), and creating beauracracies and deficits while allowing outsourcing of jobs, tax evasion from offshoring, and creating entitlements (prescription drug benefits). Ford UAW workers have a legal right to reject contracts. Unions benefit workers by ensuring fair treatment of workers, and employers by providing a secure and stable workforce. The EU countries that are more prosperous than us also have unions--Germany, Sweden, etc. To blame Unions for the decline of America is assinine.
Fellow Americans -- Buy Ford or Foreign Cars. Boycott government run GM and Chrysler. Send a clear message we do not want the government propping up loser companies and the expense of those trying to make a go of it.
The lovers of bigger government will be buying GM and Chrysler cars.
Nothing is all good or all bad. Unions which seek to negotiate fair wages and work conditions but encourage people to be productive are forces for good. A productive and prosperous middle class is certainly in our interest. But, I can give you examples of Unions who seek to do as little work possible and get paid as much as they can and have destroyed companies. On the other hand, exploitive management is just as bad. The point is for both unions and management to play a productive role - work hard and equally share the rewards. If we can't get there, everybody loses.
I personally think we're now seeing a recognition that global labor arbitrage has to end. Not sure of the best solution but one is simply to require that anything sold in your country be produced with labor and parts made in that country. Everything else would need to part of a structured trade agreement that looks to balance trade between countries. The gross trade imbalances (particulary US - China) helped create this and need to end.