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Wikileaks Loses Website
And an update from Reuters: "Amazon.com ceases hosting services for WikiLeaks website -Senator Lieberman" and "DHS says Amazon has agreed to stop hosting WikiLeaks." Game Over
It seems the days of Wikileaks are over. The Associated Press reports that the website appears to have lost its host. The question now is who will be the next Wikileaks.
The website of WikiLeaks, the organization that just released a trove of sensitive U.S. State Department documents, appears to have lost or left its main Web host, Amazon.com.
The main website and a sub-site devoted to the diplomatic documents were unavailable from the U.S. and Europe on Wednesday, as Amazon servers refused to acknowledge requests for data.
Availability of the sites has been spotty since Sunday, when it started to come under a series of Internet-based attacks by unknown hackers. WikiLeaks dealt with the attacks in part by moving to servers run by Amazon Web Services, which is self-service.
Amazon.com Inc. would not comment on its relationship with WikiLeaks or whether it forced the site to leave. Messages seeking comment from WikiLeaks were not immediately returned.
Below are the Wikileak mirror pages. So far we can't seem to access any of them:
- wikileaks.org - Official Wikileaks Page [46.51.171.90, 184.72.37.90]
- cablegate.wikileaks.org - Secret US Embassy Cables [91.194.60.90, 91.194.60.112, 204.236.131.131]
- chat.wikileaks.org - Secure SSL Chat Page [88.80.13.160]
- sunshinepress.org - Secure Document Submission Page [88.80.2.32]
- wikileaks.com - Points to Official Site [88.80.13.160]
- wikileaks.net - Points to Official Site [88.80.13.160]
- wikileaks.biz - Points to Official Site [88.80.13.160]
- wikileaks.de - Points to Official Site [88.80.13.160]
- wikileaks.eu - Points to Official Site [88.80.13.160]
- wikileaks.fi - Points to Official Site [88.80.13.160]
- wikileaks.mobi - Points to Official Site [88.80.13.160]
- wikileaks.nl - Points to Official Site [88.80.13.160]
- wikileaks.pl - Points to Official Site [88.80.13.160]
- wikileaks.us - Points to Official Site [88.80.13.160]
- ljsf.org - Points to Official Site [88.80.13.160]
Real mirrors on different IP Addresses
- wikileaks.info - Mirror hosted in Switzerland [62.2.16.94]
- wikileaks.se - Mirror hosted in Sweden [88.80.6.179]
- nyud.net - Mirror hosted in the United States [129.170.214.192]
Important Wikileaks Links
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Jingoism like that helped the socio-fascists take over.
America is not a place, nor is it a people. It is a concept. I will carry that concept with me until the day I die, no matter where I rest my head at night.
i feel exactly the same way Tmos, except i've referred to america as a State of Mind...
and yet my kids live here and i can't see them easily establishing "America" somewhere else....Once righted, it's good for the American experiment to continue to have its own piece of ground to defend.
a "breeding ground"....
Frredom. Treasure it, or cede power to those who will.
Don't give the NSA too much credit. They ain't all that, just spies really. They have every email you ever sent, but they can't take out a million name servers, and they can't clear your resolved cache. And even if they did, they can't block IP addresses. At the simplest, the entire Internet is peer-to-peer and DNS is just a human-centric kludge so people can remember shit.
The Internet is wired to survive. Unless the NSA branches the border routers and ISPs and starts massive packet scanning at wire speeds (it is to laugh) looking for unencrypted payloads, they're pwned. Encryption is then your friend unless they are willing to shut down the interconnects and blow the Net for any use at all.
Information wants to be free. Barriers will be overcome. The Net is vast.
Cougar_w:
I know for a fact that they have been working on packet scanning at wire speeds for at least six years. I don't know if the technology is broadly available to the Gov't yet, but I wouldn't doubt that they are using it selectively.
The company I work for has a product that does packet scanning at wire speeds. Didn't say it couldn't be done, just meant it couldn't be done network-wide without a fight. Man there is a shit load of wire out there. I can't even imagine how many systems they'd have to branch, assuming they couldn't get everyone to just roll over and give them root accounts on the routers. And watch the oligarchs cry foul once the Interwebs are part of a political process like that! You think Spitzer had troubles ... 20 minutes sitting on the wires into Congress and you'd have enough dirt to shut the place down.
Just a few more milestones on "The Forbin Project", and Collossus will be active!
Heartening.
Don't mess with the banks......
Seems to be the underlining message
Just got access to Wikileaks.info
Didnt come up for me.
Also nyud.net came up and wikileaks.de but only shows the collateral damage video. Several seem to be already taken over by godaddy.com .
this works: http://mirror.wikileaks.info/
Real mirrors on different IP Addresses
Important Wikileaks Links
Yup.
It's a bit slow, prob taking a lot of hits... but seems functional.
Confirm : http://www.wikileaks.nl/ and the http://88.80.13.160.nyud.net/ one too also functional.
Clicked through the Ned site to wikileaks.org and cablegate too.
Maybe it's just a 'routing problem' in the good old USA home of the fee and birthplace of 'liberty'.
The data is out there already as esc key wrote. Just need him to release the key- if he shows up dead, or fails to enter the code...
It would be nice to know if he's still a fugitive, has been arrested, or is enjoying a rendition visit to Cairo.
It's impossible that with so much time to prepare, he hasn't already put in place a foolproof failsafe system.
Sounds like a simple DDOS attack. What a joke.
Who said all the botnets are run by spammers? I never said that. Did you say that?
So, what's different from the old USSR and the current USA (except that the USSR was better at spying and keeping secrets that is)?
Not much but the language of the rhetoric; you're surprised?
yup, just get debt-based money established by a private cabal and you're off to the races!
Dancing with the Stars.
So are we Saudi Arabia, Iran, Burma, China yet ?
Arent' we the hypocritical "do as we say, not as we do" crowd.
Ah...an arm of Saudi Arabia ?
"America...A Bank with a military"
I fear you are right...and my presence here only perpetuates this.
Isreal is the dog. The disUnited States is the tail.
free speech? yeah...good luck with that. 1st ammendment be damned...
They will get away with it under the all inclusive "In the interest of national security".
revised Orwell quote:
"In a time of universal deceit telling the truth will become a revolutionary act, unless the proles are too busy watching American Idol."
"One resists the invasion of armies; one does not resist the invasion of ideas." - Victor Hugo
Keep an eye on John Young at cryptome.org. He will put together info on mirrors, etc.
Heh, I knew this would happen.
Never, never fight City Hall.
Believe it or not, I learned this lesson in sports wagering.
Never bet against "the house", which is the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Dept.
Otherwise, your trading account will be shredded in no time.
Is this Obama taking out Clinton as a threat to 2012?
Obama has failed at doing anything and everything thus far, I can't imagine it was he who convinced Julian to release data of her being an outlandish Mother Superior.
I've created a lot of analogies for Hillary Clinton in my mind over the years, never once did I picture Mother Superior. I like it
Eww! A nun with a whip (and some chains, perhaps), tucked in her chastity belt!
I finally understand you. You are beaten, whipped, subjugated, subordinated, totalized, hopeless, hiding your helplessness under the guise of pragmatism.
I am really sorry for you.
+1000
Robot is a first class pussy and a gutless douche. Sad to call him a fellow American.
Wholeheartedly agree.
RobotTraitor is a collaborator, a sellout, a Quisling, lacking any backbone or moral center. Unflinchingly bow to your corrupt and psychopathic masters, RobotPusBag --- but don't expect the rest of us to do the same. At least you have Leo Kolonasskiss for company in your groveling.
Robot (a good name, as you have clearly been programmed well by the Establishment), you truly are representative of the worst sort of cowardly, venal, shallow, shortsighted, amoral trash that inhabits the halls of power in Washington and Wall Street today. You utterly disgust me. But I do enjoy watching your every post advocating surrender and collaboration with the kleptocracy accumulate double-digit junks, as they (and you) fully deserve.
...hiding your helplessness under the guise of pragmatism, complicated by long-standing gender confusion.
I found RT's post revealing as well. I will take cowardice of that sort over the glee of Spalding any day. Being afraid and reveling in oppression are two different things. RT is a coward, Spalding is the worst sort of person, the kind that makes all the oppression possible.
A twat with a wallet.
Yea, Ive been saying for 2 years at least 'just say no', dont play.
@unibomber-one
You also hoped for another 9/11 attack on the anniversary, and for the stock market to crash the day before Thanksgiving.
If memory serves correct, that's what you've been saying, among countless other truly pathetic comments.
**JUNKED**
YOU ARE HARRY WANGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Really, Robo?
You really are stealthy enough and fed inside information to know when exit?
How'd you do in 1987, 1999, 2002 and 2007, just to name a few years?
I bet you were properly hedged, and had no net losses, even if you were on the Fed's (aka City Hall) side?
Wait - no, no. You exited in the days before each peak, and went short with 30x leverage, right?
You are a legend, bro. A LEGEND.
That's a pic from my area...used to buy Double A bodies all the time for truck chassis
Huge move in oil today. You must be pissing blood.
Assange needs to dump the bank data while he's still able.
No, he needs to make as many copies of it as possible and develop means to ensure it is disseminated upon his demise/harm... while still keeping a couple of juicy pieces in hiding. If you know you are going to be killed for the information, you might as well disseminate it. If the impacted parties can be reasoned with, then you keep it at the ready instead... pretty simple.
In this sense, information is power. He is at the point now where he is simply establishing credibility... not that he is free from the influence of those who submit him information... but that his information is in fact real and truthful. Once he establishes credibility, he can leverage this to gain even more information... or, once information is gained, go to the impacted parties and broker an information exchange for a higher valued target... just keep going until your political agenda, whatever it may be, is fulfilled. Then, when you're tired and old, have that meeting with a random man where he's sitting in your living room when you turn on the lights... pointing a silenced pistol at you.
Tyler,
You are probably ready, I probably don't need to say this.
The war is on. You. Now. Incoming. Make sure you know what you will do.
VIVA LA REV!
BUY SILVER!
True Dat'
Yep... All this just paves the way for the "War on Zero Hedg-ez" of the world. Ray Charles could see this coming.
Good point.If (God forbid) ZH is taken offline, we would immediately lose our comm lines to one another as well as Tyler. I mean, we don't generally know one another's email addrs. We of like minds are decapitated to that degree. How do we organize for this possibility? Please don't say Facebook since that's a shitty CIA trolling operation.
Not so easy to get setup again...what host will be willing to take the legal heat for it...this will have to go undergound and future data dumps will most likley be distributed via other online channels.
MountainMan
"Not so easy to get setup again...what host will be willing to take the legal heat for it"
Pirate Bay and a shit load of other file sharing hactivists.
long live piratebay.
Agree, but its now know that any server hosting this information will be under attack...don't underestimate the power of the federal government, it created this fucking network!
If the government created it, then by rights we pwn it.
This shit won't stand
this shit will stand as long as the citizenry refuses to understand that this is truly a war...
war between the collectivist whose stated mission is to subordinate the masses which they view as serfs who exist soley to service them...a resistance movement must have a diplomatic and military wing...when diplomacy fails due to a refusal of the oppressor to relent in his attacks on the oppresed then military resistance is justified...
the ruling eilite have said over and over again to our faces "fuck u"...it is time to not just say to them the same but do unto them the same.....FUCK THEM....
p.s. - i could care less if there listening...come and get some
The end of wiki leaks? I don't think so.
Information wants to be free.
I dont know William, who except a couple thousand of us on zerohedge gives a shit about the truth? 99.9% only care about Dancing with Starz.
That video TD posted earlier explains everything.
Dancing with the Stars and a cold beer is all one needs to be happy these days!
But, the truth will be made free!
You are 100% correct.
If anything it will be driven underground.
Anyone who thinks otherwise should seriously spend some time on any wannabe H/P/C site like 4chan.
There are tens of thousands of little script kiddies just itching to shit in someones cheerios over Wikileaks.
TPTB will never shut it down... Think Kiddie Porn... They have task forces everywhere for that crap and it still flows like water.
Wikileaks or their data ain't going away anytime soon.
Would sure like to know exactly how high up and who the 'pull the plug' order came from. Not gonna happen I know, but wonder if it was from guv. or other.
Since it's guaranteed Big News, I have no doubt that Barry explicitly approved it.
So much for the argument that the US didn't have "jurisdiction" to take down wikileaks because it was hosted outside the country. So why hasn't the US taken the website down a long time ago? More evidence it has been a US-supported operation all along.
Damage Control: Convince everyone the information release was 'intentional' as a Psyops !
I just Psyopsed your Psyops.
I'm not sure why they need a website. Why don't they just publish via P2P?
In progress:
Peter Sunde of Pirate Bay fame has had it. Now that the US government is ordering domain names of copyright infringers to be removed from the global DNS, Sunde has sounded a call to arms to create a new Domain Name System to help pirates remain masters of their domain. The new DNS would forego a centralized root—too attractive a target for meddling governments—and use peer-to-peer technology instead.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/11/fed-up-with-icann-pirate...I saw that the other day. Here's hoping it actually takes hold this time.
They could force ISPs to block peer-to-peer protocols at the core and edge both. Many would do so if "asked nicely", but not all. Maybe need to do the whole thing over HTTP to cloak as web traffic. This could get interesting.
They are fucked. Without the "spells" the shit they show can't attract anyone. It just comes across as fucking stupid garbage. You can't GET me to watch TV. I laugh my ass off or criticize the shit out of something I see. Wanda Sykes said "The only thing I have to do is pay my taxes" on a show just a couple months ago. I laughed and laughed and clicked off the remote.
The powers that be are like a spoiled brat that builds a theater in their back yard. They get pissed off when someone else shows up and gets attention on it. They push too hard and tv will die. They push too hard and internet will die.
torrent the data, get it distributed across a few hundred, if not thousand servers...
Yeah and it would take like -- what -- maybe 30 minutes tops to go epic viral? Jeezuz people, this ain't rocket science. Julian or his minions push a button and launch 5,000 torrent seeds, game over. Just fucking over.
And they're begging for it. Hubris is a bitch.
You know what? Their egos aside, I seriously think they have no clue at all. They just have no idea what the fuck they are dealing with here. WikiLeaks is actually playing a gentleman's game. But the gloves could come off in a heartbeat. The smackage would be all aces.
My Amazon Prime membership just expired. I will not be renewing or purchasing anything any longer from them. I refuse to do business with a company that stands for censorship. Nothing American about that.
No free shipping for you!
Well can't put a price on freedom right? I love their prices and shipping but what is right is whats right. My soul is worth the 100.00 additional annual cost I will incur I guess.
I'll join you.
I'm for it too. No more Amazon for me.
This is what is needed on a massive scale.
Just be sure to write them and tell them why.
Honestly, I'm surprised the arrangement was made in the first place. I'm thinking the Amazon head office had a visit by a few spooks who told them to dump Wikileaks from their servers or else.
I don't think I have ever seen an internet censorship campaign carried out on this scale before.
Do you like your share price? Do you want it to go higher or lower? Please let wikileaks go. Thank you. Your pals, TBTB.
good for you, JMcCloy.
oligarchial fascists are colluding against liberty and our First Amendment.
Did the same!! Fuck 'em..
https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/contact-us/general-questions.html?ie=UTF8...
With you, bro.
Which Senator Lieberman? The one from Israel, or the one that works for Israel? Guess it matters not.
Welcome to the era of Net Neutrality....
Fuck Amazon.. i'm emailing them with notice my couple hundred plus bucks a month spending days are over until they reverse their anal sex with fascism.
All good citizens should do the same.
And everyone should pull their cash out of the TBTF banks...
Time to send opinion letters to Amazon...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the process of writing one as we speak.Fuck Amazon.
Just did it.....................
https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/contact-us/general-questions.html?ie=UTF8...
Me too, bbc is reporting wiki is up again from EU servers. Go Wiki!
The real question is what would Tyler do if Julian handed over his bank data for him to parse and publish? In the blogosphere only Zero Hedge can be trusted.
I already know the answer. And Tyler has known this for quite a while which is why he goes by Tyler Durden. Scary times folks.
You mean Julian handing his to Tyler, or Tyler handing his to Julian?
And to the point, it's not really a comparison. Information leaked from someone's person data is invasion of privacy and possibly theft. Information leaked from a sovereign State might be theft but is not an invasion of privacy, and on the matter of publishing the information the NYTimes published the Pentagon Papers back in the day and they were defended under the 1st Amendment protections for the press, so that door is closed.
From Wikipedia: A 1996 article in the New York Times said that the Pentagon Papers "demonstrated, among other things, that the Johnson Administration had systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress, about a subject of transcendent national interest and significance".
I think that benchmark still applies. The truth will out.
Really? Some of them are working for me. But then again, maybe that's because I'm in Mexico.
Oops, seems like the NSA operation in Mexico didn't get the memo.
Border routers, bitchez!
For a moment, America had freedom of the press.
We'll get it back.
Yes we will.
However you might be required to redefine press in the process.
Because that MSM thing is blown. Won't be useful for much for the next 50 years.
Totalitarianism exemplified
Think Amazon really gives a damn? Theyre a govt entity now, like google! A couple hundred of your bucks means nothing to them when they get billions free for doing the govts dirty work.
Means something to me. If it means nothing to them, so be it.I buy (mostly) books from them.... http://www.abebooks.com/ is so much better most of the time.
Don't forget to support your local independent bookstore.
Seems like totalitarian action to me......shouldn't there be due process.....I guess if that can manipulate markets, print money, take your land....they can screw you anyway they want with impunity.
Gee, mention banks and the swords come out.
Can I contribute some of my hard disk space, processing power and personal bandwith akin to the distributed model utilized by SETI.ORG?
This seems like a minor technical problem to overcome.
WikiLeaks@Home
No sweat, fuck the DHS and NSA - as Ho Chi Minh used to say, "Obstacles make you clever." Game on, we're not even finished with the 1st inning...
the site is up and running, both of them. zero points for team america on this one.
Interesting that the slug Lieberman has crawled out from the dark, damp place where he resides to announce this.
May he stumble into a pile of salt.
The Slug was also on MSNBC Morning Joe discussing a potential change of parties to the Republicans to help his electability. Times like this I am beyond words for there are far too many and not nearly enough ears
Head Zionist Lieberman doing more of 'Gods work'....well as long as your God is Satan.
Oh gee, I told the truth and some didnt like it and junked? Too bad. Wise up, idiots.
ok
nyud.net - Mirror hosted in the United States [129.170.214.192]
If Assange if half the phreak he has a rep for being, he will get out whatever information he wants to get out, when he wants to get it out.
He should already have planned for this long ago and taken steps to ensure that his data was still viable and distributable.
He can use any number of mechanism to get this data out... IRC, TOR, Etc.
They can't shut down a serious hacker that easily.
He's got friends.
He's got friends with torrent feeds.
Seed the revolution.
.... day's never finished... masah's got me workin'... someday masah' set me free....
Who will be the next WikiLeaks? That's easy, and we're already here - Zero Hedge!
Perhaps forming a Zero Hedge local meetup group for monthly meeting would not be the worst idea. Oddly Meetup.com HQ is in my office building.
Asange should now mass dump everything he has, he should have planned for this and if not then hes a dumbass.
http://88.80.13.160/ is working for me. Long Live Wikileaks!
Says 'We are sorry...'
"Courage is contagious."
You got that right, and now is the time to prove it.
Drop the hammer kid, start nuking the system of lies with the truth.
Not for me. Referral page also kaput.
I can feel the BoA dump coming down the tubes...
Keep your bittorrent client warmed up ...
http://mirror.wikileaks.info/
works but very slow
I can access the site. Seems fine to me. They had to switch servers. It's not the first time. All this incident tells us is that Amazon.com is run by bitches.
Yup. "Psy-oops" or not!
Joe Lieberman is a complete dirtbag- incompetent and A sellout. Whether Wikileaks did the right thing or not time will tell. i can tell you Joe Liebershitz is the worst kind of political hack in DC
Club Zion member, nothing new there. All scumbags.
And there are still those who deny that the Zionists are in totalitarian control.
Wikileaks, if their sources and stories are accurate, is a shining light, exposing the zionist bastards for who they are.
They'd never stand for that. Shut 'em down, Bezos. By your mother's birth and now by action you're an officially known member of Zionists Worldwide.
Fuck all junkers of the thruth, Sellout bitchez at best.
“I’m constantly annoyed that people are distracted by false conspiracies such as 9/11, when all around we provide evidence of real conspiracies, for war or mass financial fraud.”
Julian Assange, Belfast Telegraph, July 19, 2010
"Apparently Julian ‘Robin Hood’ Assange finds the story of pilots who fly an airplane full of people straight into a humongous skyscraper full of unsuspecting citizens, just because some hysterical hijacker is holding a box-cutter against their jugular veins, perfectly believable. He apparently also believes that when you fly an airplane into the top floors of one of the world’s largest buildings, in a horizontal direction, the building will not only spontaneously collapse all the way down to its basement in a vertical direction, but will indeed be transformed into a powdery dust – except of course the completely undamaged passport of one of the alleged hijackers, that was miraculously found among the ruins of the World Trade Center."
http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2010/12/wikileaks-leaks-toxic-acid...
Yea I half believe Asange is just an operative, all this an elaborate diversionary false flag psyop.
That's dumb.
I would think the truthers would know by now that official story is that the terrorists killed the pilots and flew the planes themselves. Remember the flight training they had, where they didn't bother learning how to land?
Also, those towers were specifically designed to take impacts from airplanes. They were not brought down by the kinetic energy of those airplanes. They were brought down when the fireproofing was blown off of the structural steel members, and the heat from the burning fuel melted them. The Twin Towers were built in a way that lent itself to an implosion type collapse, because the building was basically a steel birdcage with the floors bolted to the frame all around the edge. There were NO supports between the floors other than the outer structure. As such, when those bolts failed, it created a chain reaction, where all the floors fell one after another. The superstructure funneled and focused that energy inwards. This effect is also what ground the metal and concrete into dust, leaving what looked like thermite in the rubble (which is rust and ground up aluminum).
I hate the government as much or more than anyone, but to claim that they had anything to do with 9/11 other than creating the terrorists that carried it out is asinine.
+1 sanity point
+1 agreed
+1 Thank you.
wow, it all makes sense to me now--->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_system
who said that the government did anything? There was never any real official investigation (the rubble was carted off and destroyed immediately). Even the NIST report was mere speculation because they were not able to access any of the forensic data or evidence.
"the building was basically a steel birdcage with the floors bolted to the frame all around the edge."
The thing I have trouble with is that for this to work out, each bolt on each floor would have had to give at exactly the same moment leading to a perfectly symmetrical collapse into it's own footprint. I'll grant you that this is not outside of the realm of possibility. Then again, it is possible that George HW Bush is a martian reptile human hybrid who had a threesome with Barbara and alester crowley so that he would one day be able to say, "I was the president's daddy".
"each bolt on each floor would have had to give at exactly the same moment leading to a perfectly symmetrical collapse into it's own footprint"
Not really. As I said, the steel superstructure contained the fall and forced it to go straight down. The only way to get it to fall over would have been to impact it at or near the base, which was obviously not the case.
Also, when you look at it, the top portion of the South tower DID fall over as it collapsed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFz9TZUyIZk
You can make a case that the investigation was sloppy. No arguments there. There just isn't enough (or any) credible evidence that points to this being some kind of government plot. US agents don't kill themselves, so they couldn't have gotten the planes to hit the buildings, and everything else was natural when you think about the nature of the buildings and how they were connected underground.
Further, when you look at the north tower's collapse, you can see the shockwave of the building's collapse behind the curtain of dust--it took much longer to fall than the dust. The dust reached the top of the building on the right 6 seconds after the collapse started, where the shockwave from the collapse didn't reach the same level for 14 seconds from the start of the collapse.
Look at it yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYUx5zJ3yss
Shockwaves. It was shockwaves everyone go home, shockwaves caused the collapse of the building that was built specifically to withstand the impact of a big jet airplane.
10,000 engineers and architechts disagree with you tmosley.
I can't argue that there is no evidence, much less proof, that the government was involved. At no time did I claim that.
I also can't get behind the notion that the planes caused all of that. I'll even forget about building 7 for the moment. I don't believe that a chaotic collapse of a nonlinear system would be as uniform and symmetrical as it was. I don't buy it.
"The only way to get it to fall over would have been to impact it at or near the base, which was obviously not the case."
I don't think this is a fully accurate statement.
"...and everything else was natural when you think about the nature of the buildings and how they were connected underground..."
What do you mean by this? Please articulate if possible. Look, were the center columns made of wax? If so, then I'll buy that it was just your birdcage free floating in space and then having a Wylie Coyote moment as it dropped to the ground at slightly less than free fall speed. What percentage of the jet fuel was spent in the initial impact explosion? What of the Windsor fire in Spain? So many questions; I can't just assume it was all 'natural'.