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WikiLeaks Releases Iraq War Logs Which Detail Over 100,000 Deaths, Show US Ignored Torture, Expose Routine Friendly Fire

Tyler Durden's picture


Wikileaks has lifted the embargo on what it dubs the biggest leak of American documents in history. The Guardian, which is the primary nexus of data collection, notes that almost "400,000 secret US army field reports have been passed to the
Guardian and a number of other international media organisations via the
whistleblowing website WikiLeaks. The electronic archive is believed to emanate from the same dissident US
army intelligence analyst who earlier this year is alleged to have
leaked a smaller tranche of 90,000 logs chronicling bloody encounters
and civilian killings in the Afghan war." The reports will likely do little to raise the US' standing in the eyes of the international community: "The numerous reports of detainee abuse, often supported by medical
evidence, describe prisoners shackled, blindfolded and hung by wrists or
ankles, and subjected to whipping, punching, kicking or electric
shocks. Six reports end with a detainee's apparent death."Additionally, the reports detail how friendly fire from US troops became routine: Americans have shot at their own troops or allies so often that in at least one case a strafed British vehicle didn't even stop. Since this will apparnetly now be the main story this weekend, might as well get a head start.

The new logs detail how:

  • US authorities failed to investigate
    hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape and even murder by Iraqi
    police and soldiers whose conduct appears to be systematic and normally
  • A US helicopter gunship involved in a notorious
    Baghdad incident had previously killed Iraqi insurgents after they tried
    to surrender.
  • More than 15,000 civilians died in previously
    unknown incidents. US and UK officials have insisted that no official
    record of civilian casualties exists but the logs record 66,081
    non-combatant deaths out of a total of 109,000 fatalities.

More from the Guardian:

As recently as December the Americans were passed a video apparently showing Iraqi army officers executing a prisoner
in Tal Afar, northern Iraq. The log states: "The footage shows
approximately 12 Iraqi army soldiers. Ten IA soldiers were talking to
one another while two soldiers held the detainee. The detainee had his
hands bound … The footage shows the IA soldiers moving the detainee into
the street, pushing him to the ground, punching him and shooting him."

report named at least one perpetrator and was passed to coalition
forces. But the logs reveal that the coalition has a formal policy of
ignoring such allegations. They record "no investigation is necessary"
and simply pass reports to the same Iraqi units implicated in the
violence. By contrast all allegations involving coalition forces are
subject to formal inquiries. Some cases of alleged abuse by UK and US
troops are also detailed in the logs.

In two Iraqi cases postmortems revealed evidence of death by torture. On 27 August 2009 a US medical officer found "bruises and burns as well as visible injuries to the head, arm, torso, legs and neck"
on the body of one man claimed by police to have killed himself. On 3
December 2008 another detainee, said by police to have died of "bad
kidneys", was found to have "evidence of some type of unknown surgical procedure on [his] abdomen".

Pentagon spokesman told the New York Times this week that under its
procedure, when reports of Iraqi abuse were received the US military
"notifies the responsible government of Iraq agency or ministry for
investigation and follow-up".

The logs also illustrate the readiness of US forces to unleash lethal force. In one chilling incident they detail how an Apache helicopter gunship gunned down two men in February 2007.

suspected insurgents had been trying to surrender but a lawyer back at
base told the pilots: "You cannot surrender to an aircraft." The Apache,
callsign Crazyhorse 18, was the same unit and helicopter based at Camp
Taji outside Baghdad that later that year, in July, mistakenly killed
two Reuters employees and wounded two children in the streets of

Iraq Body Count, the London-based group that monitors
civilian casualties, says it has identified around 15,000 previously
unknown civilian deaths from the data contained in the leaked war logs.

US generals have claimed their army does not carry out body counts and
British ministers still say no official statistics exist, the war logs
show these claims are untrue. The field reports purport to identify all
civilian and insurgent casualties, as well as numbers of coalition
forces wounded and killed in action. They give a total of more than
109,000 violent deaths from all causes between 2004 and the end of 2009.

includes 66,081 civilians, 23,984 people classed as "enemy" and 15,196
members of the Iraqi security forces. Another 3,771 dead US and allied
soldiers complete the body count.

No fewer than 31,780 of these
deaths are attributed to improvised roadside bombs (IEDs) planted by
insurgents. The other major recorded tally is of 34,814 victims of
sectarian killings, recorded as murders in the logs.

However, the
US figures appear to be unreliable in respect of civilian deaths caused
by their own military activities. For example, in Falluja, the site of
two major urban battles in 2004, no civilian deaths are recorded. Yet
Iraq Body Count monitors identified more than 1,200 civilians who died
during the fighting.

Legal action is already being prepared:

Phil Shiner, human rights specialist at Public Interest Lawyers, plans to use material from the logs in court to try to force the UK to hold a public inquiry into the unlawful killing of Iraqi civilians.

He also plans to sue the British government over its failure to stop the abuse and torture of detainees by Iraqi forces. The coalition's formal policy of not investigating such allegations is "simply not permissible", he says.

Shiner is already pursuing a series of legal actions for former detainees allegedly killed or tortured by British forces in Iraq.

As before, all the docs will be made available online:

WikiLeaks says it is posting online the entire set of 400,000 Iraq field reports – in defiance of the Pentagon.

The whistleblowing activists say they have deleted all names from the documents that might result in reprisals. They were accused by the US military of possibly having "blood on their hands" over the previous Afghan release by redacting too few names. But the military recently conceded that no harm had been identified.

Condemning this fresh leak, however, the Pentagon said: "This security breach could very well get our troops and those they are fighting with killed. Our enemies will mine this information looking for insights into how we operate, cultivate sources and react in combat situations, even the capability of our equipment."

There are many other stories emanating from the main portal, among which:

  1. The introduction- The leaking of more than 390,000 previously secret US military reports details the hidden realities of the war in Iraq (link)
  2. A look at Frago 242 - Secret order that let US ignore abuse;
    Mistreatment of helpless prisoners by Iraqi security forces included
    beatings, burning, electrocution and rape (link)
  3. Iraq war logs: How friendly fire from US troops became routine: Americans have shot at their own troops or allies so often that in at least one case a strafed British vehicle didn't even stop (link)
  4. Apache crew killed insurgents who tried to surrender: US military legal adviser told helicopter crew that Iraqi men were valid targets as they could not surrender to aircraft (link)
  5. Iraq war logs reveal civilian body count of invasion is much higher (link)
  6. Civilians gunned down at checkpoints (link)
  7. Iran accused of plotting attack on Green Zone: Audacious strike in Baghdad among allegations against Tehran of everything from gun running to training insurgents (link)
  8. US fails to answer for deaths of journalists: Highest toll among Iraqi reporters caught in crossfire, mistaken for insurgents or murdered by countrymen in sectarian violence (link)
  9. Killings in the wake of Saddam's hanging: Brothers named after him were lynched along with their mother – while gallows mocking of dictator led to revenge bombing (link)
  10. Iraq war logs: US spy balloons blew towards Iran: Hi-tech JLens blimps with secret technology used to detect cruise missiles may have dropped into Tehran's lap (link)

A tabular summary of all the Associated Iraqi deaths is presented below:

The link also denotes the method of death on both sides.

The Guardian has also released a map of the deaths (which for now apparently is not working)

For those pressed for time, the below clip summarizes most of the key findings:

Sure enough, the Pentagon has immediately responded (via the New York Times):

“We deplore WikiLeaks for inducing individuals to break the law, leak
classified documents and then cavalierly share that secret information
with the world, including our enemies. We know terrorist organizations
have been mining the leaked Afghan documents for information to use
against us, and this Iraq leak is more than four times as large. By
disclosing such sensitive information, WikiLeaks continues to put at
risk the lives of our troops, their coalition partners and those Iraqis
and Afghans working with us. The only responsible course of action for
WikiLeaks at this point is to return the stolen material and expunge it
from their Web sites as soon as possible.

“We strongly condemn the unauthorized disclosure of classified
information and will not comment on these leaked documents other than to
note that ‘significant activities’ reports are initial, raw
observations by tactical units. They are essentially snapshots of
events, both tragic and mundane, and do not tell the whole story. That
said, the period covered by these reports has been well chronicled in
news stories, books and films, and the release of these field reports
does not bring new understanding to Iraq’s past.

“However, it does expose secret information that could make our troops
even more vulnerable to attack in the future. Just as with the leaked
Afghan documents, we know our enemies will mine this information,
looking for insights into how we operate, cultivate sources and react in
combat situations, even the capability of our equipment. This security
breach could very well get our troops and those they are fighting with

Also, remember, the banks are not allowed to reveal anything about their own criminal ways because otherwise the world will end. Ah, the parallels.

And conveniently enough, here is an interview on the very topic between Dylan Ratigan and Pentagon Papers creator Daniel Ellsberg :


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Fri, 10/22/2010 - 17:22 | 670535 whatsinaname
whatsinaname's picture

Tell us something new Julian..

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 17:44 | 670587 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

No, more likely Assange is a Intelligence agency asset,  who will leak certain stuff, but really he is there to be a central collection point for all would-be whistleblowers, and so he can keep the REALLY volatile stuff out of the public eye.  You know, stuff about underground bunkers, the destruction of the dollar, one world currency,  that kind of stuff.

Woe to the whistleblower who trusts Julian Assange, IMO.  He won't sell you out, he will just sit on the information and tell you they are waiting for the right time to release it.

Remember, he was a hacker IN JAIL who got let out early for cutting a deal, I mean, for good behavior.




Fri, 10/22/2010 - 18:21 | 670657 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

<s>But the US government said they hated the USA because of their FreeDumbs? Wow, what a game changer, colour me suprised!</s>

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 19:02 | 670729 BobWatNorCal
BobWatNorCal's picture

Cool, now print some stuff about China, Russia, Iran, Syria, France, Mexico, ... so we can compare and contrast.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 19:53 | 670831 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Not that it would excuse anything, but I agree.

Out with it.  All of it.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 20:32 | 670888 BobWatNorCal
BobWatNorCal's picture

Sorry about that. Won't be forthcoming.
Not on the agenda.
Ya know?

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 01:17 | 671469 Village Idiot
Village Idiot's picture

"Out with it.  All of it."


We call for it every day.  The proverbial head is over the proverbial toilet. Just go ahead and put a finger down the global throat, and puke already.  Now, that would be a sight to see.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 05:19 | 671583 66Sexy
66Sexy's picture

9-11 was an inside job.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 05:32 | 671585 66Sexy
66Sexy's picture

The Federal Reserve Charter expires 12/21/2012. In europe, that date is expressed 21.12.12.

What is Mathew 21:12?

"And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."

coincidence, im sure.


you have about 2 years to spend those dollars. the dollar will cease to exist, the fed charter will not be renewed. ironic that it correllates to the bible verse where jesus kicks the moneychangers out of the temple.


this could be by design.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 06:23 | 671615 Tense INDIAN
Tense INDIAN's picture

wow ...this is new to me...nice one

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 15:23 | 672166 old john
old john's picture

Train people to kill and they will kill.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 06:49 | 671628 MeTarzanUjane
MeTarzanUjane's picture

"fed charter will not be renewed"

Now that is the funniest thing I've seen on ZH yet. Good for a hearty laugh, ty.

Please sing along:

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 11:14 | 671801 66Sexy
66Sexy's picture

so you must think the dollar will remain the worlds reserve currency. you must think the dollar will survive the actions of the corrupt and banker-infiltrated political process we are seeing now...

now, THAT is the funniest thing I've seen on ZH yet. Good for a hearty laugh, ty.

have a nice sleep. night night.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 05:56 | 671603 66Sexy
66Sexy's picture

fairly obvious this is government approved. the pentagon is not this helpless... is it?

wouldnt they attack the site so it couldnt expose the information... if it wanted too?

or does this tie in to the "kill switch"; they will try to make it look like they are doing damage control or it "puts the troops in harms way", so they can kill internet freedoms and the first amendment when they want too.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:09 | 671042's picture


Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:10 | 671049's picture

Cool, now print some stuff about China, Russia, Iran, Syria, France, Mexico, ... so we can compare and contrast...Not that it would excuse anything, but I agree...Out with it.  All of it...Sorry about that. Won't be forthcoming.Not on the agenda. Ya know?



Wikileaks has been publishing that info for years.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:32 | 671113 Screwtape Letters
Screwtape Letters's picture

Wikileaks will print it just as soon as someone is willing to part with the information.  It's a site for whistleblowers (god bless it), not a news organization.

Plus, I don't mind if the military's dirty laundry gets aired.  Wikileaks will deserve some credit when we finally put an end to torturing people, so they get a thumbs up in my book.

The big question I have is, where are all the whistleblowers in the financial industry who can provide documentation of Wall Street's crimes.  I started a zerohedge forum topic on just this issue:

I think we all realize now that it is the public that is going to have to bring the banksters to justice.  The administration, the regulators, and congress have all been bought off and will only act if there is no other choice.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 00:01 | 671346 Mercury
Mercury's picture

Yeah, either that or they have an agenda and they could care less about outing Castro, China, Iran, Chavez etc.

Speaking truth to power ...of course... why would you ever think otherwise? - I'm sure they're just waiting for the slightest chink in the armor, the smallest window of insight to go public with like revelations in places like this.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 05:27 | 671588 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

you meant to say "couldn't care less".  and how could you not have mentioned the palestinians?  i feel cheated.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 11:46 | 671836 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

This debate reminds me of "Never go against a Sicilian" routine from "The Princess Bride":

Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead. 
Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me...."

Good God - If Wikileaks is Psiops or Cointel - it's going to have some legit info and some bs info...  If its a legitimate site - it's going to have some legit info and some bs info...  This is where one uses judgment.

Regardless of the greater purpose of the website - there is some pretty damning stuff on there that can be taken at face value [ie Apache helicopters shooting folks rendering aid]

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 08:21 | 671671 Chartist
Chartist's picture

First, as you know, two wrongs don't make a right.

But second, I lost a nephew in that war and would like to think it was for a worthy cause, not this BS.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 09:27 | 671719 CH1
CH1's picture

Quite so. I want the docs on Russia, China, and all the others too. If not, this becomes just another stilted, mostly political, America-bash fest.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 11:50 | 671839's picture

Then stop being so lazy and read the documents.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 12:53 | 671923 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Quite so. I want the docs on Russia, China, and all the others too. If not, this becomes just another stilted, mostly political, America-bash fest.



Translation from US duplicity mode: Quite so. I want to believe there is no docs on Russia, China, and all the others too. As I believe there is not, I also believe it is another stilted, mostly, America Bash fest.

And of course, I am a big fan on responsibility. Others performing an action should not dilute my own responsibility in performing the said action.


Maybe, would be easier to admit that you approve of what is going on down there.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 23:49 | 672816 John Self
John Self's picture

I approve of what is going down there. 

That wasn't so hard.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:24 | 671090 No More Bubbles
No More Bubbles's picture

That your post got so heavily "junked" would indicate you are actually onto something.

People just don't want to believe it........

We are all totally beyond FUCKED!

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 07:01 | 671633 MeTarzanUjane
MeTarzanUjane's picture

Agreed. Tyler should override that and reset it to zero, not junk.

Wikileaks should have a junk feature. But maybe that is the Porpoise of the document flood. Just as an attorney in discovery phase is visited by 20 tractor trailers full of "evidence", box after box of junk. A needle in infinite haystacks.

No, more likely Assange is a Intelligence agency asset, who will leak certain stuff, but really he is there to be a central collection point for all would-be whistleblowers, and so he can keep the REALLY volatile stuff out of the public eye. You know, stuff about underground bunkers, the destruction of the dollar, one world currency, that kind of stuff.

Woe to the whistleblower who trusts Julian Assange, IMO. He won't sell you out, he will just sit on the information and tell you they are waiting for the right time to release it.

Remember, he was a hacker IN JAIL who got let out early for cutting a deal, I mean, for good behavior.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 09:52 | 671731 CH1
CH1's picture

Yep, and so long as we all believe in this insane idea that one group of people is supposed to rule everyone else, we remain fucked.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 18:19 | 670654 chet
chet's picture

"A little bit of rape and torcher [sic] going around"

You sound like quite the guy, Spitz.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 19:39 | 670795 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

Yes makes me embarrassed for my country - luckily he is in the minority and is living in northern Alberta.

I do want to look into the phenomena at some point though. The majority of Canadians who write on US financial blogs tend to represent the most extreme Canadian political views. Not sure why. 

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 21:41 | 670987 Dionysus
Dionysus's picture

Take heart -- we moderate Canadians are here too.  Perhaps we just tend to lurk more.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:23 | 671087 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Look at your avatar.. which gay bar did you stumble out of ? Celebrites on Granville ?

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 23:04 | 671212 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

Hell your avatar is fashioned after Eliot Spitzer! When I first saw that I thought you were being facetious but now thinking ... maybe not.

I actually like Spitzer but Wall street does not. They think he is a douche. When he was charged with the prostitute thing you could hear cheers (literally)  throughout the financial district.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 23:10 | 671220 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Free sex is the most expensive sex you will ever get.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 23:56 | 671337 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

Wouldn't it be cool if he really was spitzer? Soooo cool.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 18:27 | 672400 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

Agreed.  I see no reason to think he is anyone but. 

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 01:19 | 671473 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

Not much luck with ladies? Why am I not surprised.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 01:43 | 671504 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

if that is why you think men go to escorts then you dont know what you are missing.

Its the guys that need the approval that dont go to escorts

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 05:38 | 671593 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

it is the approval/change from unwilling to willing/actual hesitancy to reveal that is the real charge.  the actual sex is a bit anti-climactic.  but then again it may be like that some like sweet and some like tart. 

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 21:29 | 672625 Lower Class Elite
Lower Class Elite's picture

Well, you sure know your gay bars, don't you Spitter?

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 20:23 | 670876 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

have you ever sent 150,000 men to war with a gun in one hand and a pocket pussy in the other ? Get real, shit happens man.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 05:40 | 671594 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

haven't we all?

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 20:34 | 670895 midtowng
midtowng's picture

Some people on ZH define the word "compassion" as "weakness".

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 09:54 | 671733 CH1
CH1's picture

For me it's the same as hearing the word "social" - I immediately grab my wallet.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 19:02 | 670730 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

You are just as much a Nazi as a "Turn A Blind Eye" villager, who lived and worked near the death camps of WW2 in Nazi Germany. They're only rabble-rousing towel heads, right?

Spitzer, you are walking neon sign that spells; SICK CUNT. May you and your ilk rot from the balls up.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 20:26 | 670881 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

I don't think people understand my point. This is war, did you need wikigeeks to tell you that there is some bad shit going on there ?

Get real, of course there is and it should surprise none of us.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 21:31 | 670968 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Is it a war or a police action? Are we conquering or attempting to establish a 'democracy'? Did the citizens we are killing actually do anything to us? 

I believe those questions are relevant. If we are there in an attempt to help form some kind of democracy, then the tactics we use to accomplish this can influence the success of our mission. 

I agree that war is hell, but that does not, nor should it, diminish our responsibility to win that war with honor and an attempt to set a higher (but realistic) standard. 

Saying none of this should surprise anyone is far too apologetic to the atrocities committed...

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:27 | 671099 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

The Americans are winning the war with honor and that is my problem with wikileaks. Nobody is perfect.


Fri, 10/22/2010 - 23:56 | 671338 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

"Winning the war with honor"

Seriously? Boy, you sure have an interesting definition of honor.

You are truly conditioned Spitz, but of course, I remember all my interactions with folks like you during my time in the US. It never ended well because most often, they just started foaming at the mouth and telling me to "go Home". Of course most of them were maximum a couple of generations old in the US themselves, so the  kool-aid was still tasty.

Omnihumanity (Cliff High Phrase, I like), collectively is under influencs well beyond their control, fortunately or unfortunately.

If you want to understand why we are so war-minded, look no further than around you. Planet been acting up lately? Mega Storms, Mega disasters, Mega Quakes.... everything bad happening to a "never-before" degree. Mega financial crisis. Hmmmmmm...... let us see...

If your house was on fire, would you be able to sit and sip a wine in your living room and be kind andloving all around? Probably not, you'd be a panicked fool, running around trying to douse the flames, save your things, your family, whatever.

Well, the earth is on fire.

How can we, it's residents be comfortable? Even if my house is not burning yet, I can see a trend. Most people can sense it.

People sicker than ever before? Check. More crime globally? Check. Species disappearing? Check. Identities in crises? Check. Society disintegrating? Check.

It's just that time folks and the pressure is peaking (or is it Bejing???).

The system will give and we are all going to feel th epain. To doubt that is to deny reality.

But still, in the midst of all this, it's possible to be kind, generous.

I'm glad Spitzy here is neither friend nor family.

Good luck to you Spitzy, you are going to need it.




Sat, 10/23/2010 - 00:19 | 671384 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Don't agree

How would you have liked to live through the great depression, fight in WW1 and then send your kids or grand kids to fight in WW2 ? That was hell.

This nation building experiment that the US is doing is not as bad as you think. The saddest part is that the US is broke. The US is doing a noble thing. They could have easily turned Iraq and Afstan into a parking lot.

Wait till China is the world superpower and a couple of their buildings get leveled by muslim terrorists. The Chinese WILL turn the middle east into a parking lot, and then wikifags et al will be begging for George Bush back.

I am actually looking forward to China being the superpower, then maybe I can board an international flight without taking my shoes off because the whole middle east will be known as lake China.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 01:55 | 671510 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

damn those middle easterners for having all our oil. Its not easy being nobler than everyone else. Tell us what that's like Elliot. And tell us how you decry the subhuman plots of muslims in one breath and fantasize with sexual glee over the nuclear destruction of the entire middle east in another.  

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 05:53 | 671602 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

the whole middle east?  israel too?  where in the middle east did the bali bomber live?  the ummah is bigger, apparently, than you think.  and the chronology in your first sentence needs an excellent time machine to work.  china seems unlikely to destroy the oil reserves on which it depends.  you are raving. 

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 12:59 | 671936 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

They could have easily turned Iraq and Afstan into a parking lot.


Wrong and wrong again. Extortion schemes exclude the possibility of killing all  the extorted. The extorter is dependent on the extorted. The extorter can kill a few of the extorted to send a message but he can not kill all of the extorted.

So no, the US does not choose not to turn Iraq and Afghanistan in a parking lot. The option is simply not on the table.

If it were on the table, my bet would go to the US performing the action. See, the US is that nation that started by proclaiming that all men were entitled to freedom and kept slaves. This was possible and this was done.

The first on a long list. There is nothing noble in not killing when you can not kill.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 18:33 | 672408 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

While not necessarily arguing with your sentiment, killing all the "extorted" would make it much simpler for a billion or so Chinese laborers to move in and extract their oil. 

The option is on the table. 

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 14:28 | 672094 Batty Koda
Batty Koda's picture

Your so right Spitzer, you really are a wise one. National security is more important than these "moral values" the libtards are always on about, we need to defend the fatherland from any threat.

Right now the biggest threat is the Fed and the Jewish controlled corporate media, it's about time we put those FEMA camps to good use and practiced our vivisection techniques on those rats that have infiltrated our society.

I'm sure that sounds good to you doesn't it Spitz? It's for national security right? Or should we treat God's chosen people different to how we treat the Goy?

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 17:07 | 672305 Jake3463
Jake3463's picture

There was never a legal war.  

Hate to break it to you, every single US Military operation since 1945 has been pretty much illegal under our constitution and would horrify our founders.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 07:16 | 671643 MeTarzanUjane
MeTarzanUjane's picture

"Is it a war or a police action? Are we conquering or attempting to establish a 'democracy'? Did the citizens we are killing actually do anything to us? "

You really don't get it. Iraq was a move to secure oil. On all boarders of the country horizontal drilling is underway to leach and liberate additional assets. Afghanistan is an effort to install the cross country pipeline.

A Corporate offensive.

Saddam assets went where? Back to the people so they could live a better life? Lol.
"Assets of Saddam Hussein Still Missing"

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 19:04 | 672433 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Oh I get it. I certainly don't think we were there to actually find WMD's. It's clear you didn't bother to try to understand my post. My point is that the way in which a 'war' is fought most certainly impacts the odds and quality of victory. Killing innocent civilians is counter-productive. Piling naked men on top of each other in captivity and then taking pictures is counter-productive. Many of these 'atrocities' were likely avoidable, preventable, and set back the effort to actually achieve our objectives (unless our objective was not to actually succeed, but simply to languish for as long as possible). 

How much more influence and credibility would we have in the ME if we could have maintained discipline, and perhaps built a reliable power grid?

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 05:28 | 671065 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

double post

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:25 | 671075 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Your point is understood fully. Your stance is understood completely. I stand by my previous remark. Your moral code is unfortunately a sign of the times in an Empire of sloth and avarice.

Am I surprised by the bad shit going on, as you call it?

No, I'm not surprised, just appalled. Appalled that the Empire built on the tenets of the moral high ground, would produce people who, through indifference, condone the torture of enemy combatants.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 19:10 | 670741 ATG
ATG's picture

Who cares? Whom do you work for Spitzer?

Also, remember, the banks are not allowed to reveal anything about their own criminal ways because otherwise the world will end. Ah, the parallels.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 20:29 | 670885 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

I work for Statoil.

I bet more torcher goes on in an arab coutry during peace time then during war.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 21:10 | 670944 DocLogo
DocLogo's picture


Sat, 10/23/2010 - 00:58 | 671436 Frankie Carbone
Frankie Carbone's picture

You're the kind of guy that deserves to get the same shit that he apologizes for. What kind of cock justifies SS-like actions by stating "ohh yeah!, well so-and-so is worse".


You're such a douche. 

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 19:20 | 670743 Frank Owen
Frank Owen's picture

Who cares about any of this ? certainly not me.

I don't give a shit what your beef is with wikileaks, but the fact that you can defend the notion of ANY government covering up not only torture of it's enemies but the deaths of it's own troops and allies is really disturbing.

What is even more disturbing is the failure to realize that by not admitting mistakes have been made we are in fact saying that it is acceptable to keep making the same mistakes.

There are a lot of scary comments on here lately.

Here's the one word/concept that the lack of has led to all the problems we are now having worldwide: Integrity.

"Integrity: a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations and outcomes. In western ethics, integrity is regarded as the quality of having an intuitive sense of honesty and truthfulness in regard to the motivations for one's actions. Integrity can be regarded as the opposite of hypocrisy, in that it regards internal consistency as a virtue, and suggests that parties holding apparently conflicting values should account for the discrepancy or alter their beliefs. " - wikipedia

INTEGRITY, BITCHES - find some. It's what gave you that warm fuzzy feeling of what America was built on long ago when you were proud to say "I am American".




Sat, 10/23/2010 - 15:55 | 672220 kathy.chamberli...'s picture

hi frank. integrity is a beautiful word and concept. hard for some to even grasp, but it is personal integrity that is most highly regarded, in one's self i would believe. i try very hard to have integrity to myself. it is how you handle it, also is an important concept, my mom taught me that. so integrity could be interrupted along with how you handle your ups and downs and interactions. 

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 20:39 | 670903 russki standart
russki standart's picture

And I bet you believe that THEY hate America for our freedoms, (chortle, chortle). How about our foreign policy?

You don`t care because as a zionist, you think you are somehow protected. Guess again.... it may someday be you or your family members busting their hump in a war caused by profiteers. Just wait till general war breaks out.


Fri, 10/22/2010 - 21:22 | 670953 Marley
Marley's picture

When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight.  ~Kahlil Gibran

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:39 | 671132 whatsinaname
whatsinaname's picture

you are as sick as your name suggests..

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 23:39 | 671298 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Yes, what else is new?

Kill or be killed.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 00:46 | 671395 G-R-U-N-T
G-R-U-N-T's picture

What does America do with this idiot?

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 00:49 | 671421 barkingbill
barkingbill's picture

is that all you have to say coward?

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 01:11 | 671463 G-R-U-N-T
G-R-U-N-T's picture

It's all that needs to be said pussy! 

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 06:10 | 671609 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

cue homer simpson

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 22:49 | 671764 G-R-U-N-T
G-R-U-N-T's picture

Assange actions has just made the world less safe, and one would have to be as dumb as a sack of rocks not to see that.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 14:57 | 672137 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Wikidouche founder walks out on CNN interview.


Sat, 10/23/2010 - 22:51 | 672363 G-R-U-N-T
G-R-U-N-T's picture

Assange is just another America hater trying to do damage to the greatest nation the world has ever known.

Just shows the pussy, coward and hypocrite I already new assange was.

Good eye Spitzer! ;-)

If ever there were a holy war, it was that which saved our liberties and gave us independence.

-Thomas Jefferson 1792

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 17:25 | 670541 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

"Legal action is already being prepared"... to be dismissed because it may reveal state secrets

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 17:26 | 670544 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

This is pure bullshit. First off, more than a million civilians have been killed in this stupid war. So we see as we read this nonsense, it is as I have stated. Nothing earth shattering here. Most of this information is already known and is of a common sense nature. Of course we know about torture, etc etc. blah, blah , blah.

“However, it does expose secret information that could make our troops even more vulnerable to attack in the future. Just as with the leaked Afghan documents, we know our enemies will mine this information, looking for insights into how we operate, cultivate sources and react in combat situations, even the capability of our equipment. This security breach could very well get our troops and those they are fighting with killed.” <<< on come on now. you mean after ten years, some half witted dimwit( I am joking of course) finally figured out how the US Army works? Really? No shit?

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 18:54 | 670713 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Reminds me of the old saying... If the muslims laid down their weapons, there would be no more war.  If the Israelis laid down their weapons, there would be no more Israel.

Does the MSM and activists go after the Iraqis and the muslim culture of death or do they go after British mitigation policies?

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 20:23 | 670877 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

that saying has to be one of the stupidest I've heard. How about let's go back to 1948 and reset.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 20:34 | 670893 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

The arabs started it, the Israelies finished it.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 01:39 | 671502 caconhma
caconhma's picture


You must be a Jew, then it explains everything.

It is absolutely incredible: war-criminals and mass-murderers complain about foul play when their crimes are exposed. WOW. It only can happen in America...


I thought Obama has promised to bring American troops back home from Iraq. Oh well, he is just a liar (I mean a politician).

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 11:31 | 671821 tamboo
tamboo's picture

assange is a total tool to toss 1st amend and net out the window.

no mention of izzy and the joos in all of his "leaks"? how surprising.


Sat, 10/23/2010 - 19:31 | 672465 tmosley
tmosley's picture

You DO know that the Arabs are Isrealites who were forced to convert after the Arab conquests, right?  

It's like me going back to Ireland and claiming that Island as my birthright because my ancestors were from there.  Well, the people who live there are descended from them too.  Does the existence of Irish terrorists give me any more right to that land?

Shit, fucking Irish started it.  Bunch of fucking terrorists.  Ireland for Americans, I say.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 20:34 | 670894 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

The arabs started it, the Israelies finished it.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 21:25 | 670956 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

Huh? Context please.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 21:47 | 670995 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture


Fri, 10/22/2010 - 23:43 | 671311 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

The Israelis did not engage in war to settle in 1948 but the rag heads did engage in war in 1967 and they got their asses kicked.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 00:00 | 671348 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

It has been silent on the Israeli front.  Me thinks the USaians have finally woked up to being used by them and will not stand for it any longer.  As an added bonus, Rham AICAP Immanuel is no longer chief of staff.  There are some things to be happy about.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 00:45 | 671413 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

- Rahm = + 1

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 08:08 | 671664 MeTarzanUjane
MeTarzanUjane's picture

"no longer chief of staff", "happy"


Examine the timeline. Obama was getting smeared by the mainstream media and pressured to do what he didn't want to do.

The word went out and it was ignored.

Rham was ejected. And if you think he left to "trade up" to being mayor... He was ejected along with about a dozen influential staffers/AIPAC lobbyists.

Even if you don't like Obama you have to like those policies.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 11:35 | 671824 Rick64
Rick64's picture

No but they did engage in terrorist activities. King David Hotel bombing as well as many others. This was before the Partition plan of the UN which was rejected by the Arab nations and accepted by the Israelis. Then Israel announces its independance which provokes the war. Go back and research the Balfour Declaration.

Sun, 10/24/2010 - 01:13 | 672918 dimichzh
dimichzh's picture

Right! They engaged in terrorism


Fri, 10/22/2010 - 21:24 | 670955 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

Ok since I'm in a mood ... did you mean "British migration policies"? You do understand the difference between "mitigation" and "migration" - maybe I just didn't read the post correctly - might have gone over my head.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 06:21 | 671613 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

with him you never know, but tony blair probably thought he was mitigating some of the ill effects of both saddam and the sanctions.  wasn't true but he probably thought it. remember his finance whiz sold a good chunk of britain's gold at under $300 an ounce. that takes market timing.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 13:01 | 671941 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Reminds me of the old saying



The saying looks old indeed. How much 50 years old?


Sat, 10/23/2010 - 08:24 | 671676 Bob
Bob's picture

I agree.  This will yield little that either wasn't already known before.  Torture and unprovoked murderous war are evil. 

But we already knew about this stuff. Surprise, our military hasn't changed. 

This crap will now dominate the MSM, however.  Meanwhile, what will happen to Fraudgate, which threatens to expose the bloodless coup of our nation?


Sat, 10/23/2010 - 11:55 | 671848 barkingbill
barkingbill's picture

keep buying those pentagon talking points there drifter. if they really were concerned about the troops, bring them the hell home. anyway they have no examples to point to, it's just mind control, and it seems to have worked in your case. 

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 17:29 | 670548 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Looks like the DoD is prepping for domestic action.  The question is, will they deploy the Afgan and Iraqi battalions in the US or just allow our own troops to rape and kill us.  Inquiring minds, you know. 

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 17:31 | 670557 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Eh?  How so?  Wikileaks isn't based in America.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 17:34 | 670562 doolittlegeorge
doolittlegeorge's picture

maybe London should be the first target, Cossack.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 17:42 | 670582 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Targets are generally selected according to;

degree of "hardening"

asset value

ease of ingress/egress

theatre assets available/deployable

I think it common knowledge the LBMA is empty and screw some fish and chips.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 17:29 | 670549 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

This security breach could very well get our troops and those they are fighting with killed.

Last week if we didn't build a mosque on ground zero it would get our troops killed.  I guess everything except terrorists shooting at our troops will get our troops killed.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 17:46 | 670593 A Man without Q...
A Man without Qualities's picture

the mosque was not at the site of the Twin Towers, but rather several blocks away..

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 18:08 | 670631 tmosley
tmosley's picture

And further it was on private property.  The owners had a right to do whatever they wanted with it, be it 9/11 memorial, or 9/11 theme park.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 21:34 | 670974 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

Agreed they have a right to do it on private property.  That doesn't make it right.  My point was that if they don't do it, that is not getting our soldiers killed.  It is the terrorists who are actually killing our soldiers, not wikileaks or the lack of mosques (right!) in Manhattan.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:17 | 671068's picture

Is a person who fights against an illegal invasion and occupation of his country a terrorist?

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 01:02 | 671443 Frankie Carbone
Frankie Carbone's picture

Cheesy can't answer that right now, he's busy chugging Kool Aide.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 06:28 | 671617 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

yes but you miss his point by getting hung up on "terrorists".  the point is that neither "the mosque" nor "wikileaks" is killing the u.s. forces.  the "enemy" on the field is.  with some "friendly fire".  and of course the real killers are the "u.s. civilian leadership".  as per usual.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 18:44 | 672418 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture



Sat, 10/23/2010 - 00:02 | 671351 pan-the-ist
pan-the-ist's picture

Are you Israeli? You don't seem to know anything about being an American.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 18:51 | 670703 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"the mosque was not at the site of the Twin Towers, but rather several blocks away.."

The Burlington Coat Factory (the mosque) is within the debris field of 911. That's why they chose the location.

If they are really wanting to promote peace & brotherhood (which they are not, as they are naming it Cordoba after a city the Moors sacked) pick another name & location away from our debris field.

They expect us to respect their sensibilities without regard to ours. A one way street.

If it had been christians or jews wanting to build a church or synagogue in the debris field after some in their faith had flown a plane through the Kingdom Centre's 84th. floor in Riyadh we wouldn't even be having this conversation...would we?

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 19:30 | 670781 Clinteastwood
Clinteastwood's picture



I know it's hard to get one's mind around the implications of this, but.........911 was an inside job.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 19:40 | 670801 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Your right...they were all Wahhabi muslims.

Wrap your head around that Clint.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 23:12 | 671225 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

overwhelming amount of architectural, military, aeronautical, physical, chemical and political facts in that comeback

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 23:39 | 671301 nmewn
nmewn's picture

As opposed to Alex Jones drivel...mmmkay.

Tell me how the explosives were pre-planted without detection. Tell me how heretofore unknown passengers talked to their loved ones before dying and spoke of what they saw in real time. By now it's obvious they were muslim who paid them to kill themselves?

Mostly, tell me what America has gained by your grand conspiracy of govenment actors.

By now you know I'm no statist shill...not by a long shot...but now it's time to put up or shut up Davey.

You tell me.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 23:57 | 671341 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

God, you got me there. Falsely connecting the attack and then immediately occupying the last place with the largest source of high quality crude in a society completely dependent on the stuff has gained us nothing. You're good. And countering my call for all that technical evidence by invoking Alex Jones is even more impressive. Put up or shut up or wake up or shut up?  

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 06:45 | 671626 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

all this arguing about physics of demolition and real time cell phones!  what is the moral difference between a. actually planting explosives in the wtc/pentagon/plane(s) and b. just knowing that other people (atta, et. al.) was going to/likely to do what they are said to have done and thinking "we can make this work for us"?  to me that seems the most likely scenario. and in keeping with the players.  all of them.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 07:47 | 671656 nmewn
nmewn's picture

It was Friday...I felt like a fight ;-)

It was indeed wahhabi muslims who hijacked the planes slitting crew & passengers throats to terrorize the remainder into submission. Then they used the planes as "drones".

The good thing here is it will never happen again. Now everyone knows they will die anyways. Terrorists attempting this strategy will be beaten into unrecognizable pulps, scraped up with a spatula & dumped into the planes toilet.

I have often said we are fortunate in our enemies. These are the stupidest fucking people on earth.

If they would have used those planes against nuclear plants or some such other installation instead of making theatrical statements with them we would have really been in trouble.

To the larger point of should we be there now...the answer is no. The troops don't have the support of our leadership. I saw this a few months back when air support & artillery fire were denied to a unit pinned down by a larger force.

The decision to deny support to troops, on the ground, under hostile fire, was made not in the theater of war...but in DC...for fear of hurting civilians in the area. It's time to yank them all the hell out. 

Ta ta Davey.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 09:49 | 671730 MeTarzanUjane
MeTarzanUjane's picture

Your ignorance is why Davey does not have to argue.

His sarcasm about your retorts should be enough of a hint for you to realize it's time to stop digging and do some research before you continue with your nonsense.

But as usual the barriers are to high for you to overcome.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 20:02 | 672507 ColonelCooper
ColonelCooper's picture

Douche.  Nuff said.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 12:16 | 671877 Rick64
Rick64's picture

 There is some undeniable evidence. Multiple eyewitness accounts of multiple explosions coming from lower floors, WTC building 7 falling into its own footprint ( watch the clip, the structure-penthouse on top of the building caves in before the rest of the building starts to fall )  having never been struck by a plane. Falling debris doesn't explain this.

Mostly, tell me what America has gained by your grand conspiracy of govenment actors.

 In a word control. Control of the masses, control of oil fields, control of water ( Tigris and Euphrates rivers ), strategic positioning in the middle east. The U.S. has Iran surrounded and isolated. Billions of dollars worth of contracts going to U.S. companies. The need for more military and clandestine developement with increased budgets. A new enemy wich can't be defeated and can fuel conflict for many many years and the reasoning of anything goes in the name of national security.

Sun, 10/24/2010 - 04:17 | 673021 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Spot on observations all around Rick.


Sun, 10/24/2010 - 11:28 | 673313 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Your right rick, control was the only thing more important than oil

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 19:44 | 670812 nmewn
nmewn's picture

And by the me a synagogue that stands in Saudi Arabia today.

You'll get a free cookie ;-)

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:49 | 671069 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

and they're a good lead to follow? What does their Bill of Rights look like, especially the first one?

Sun, 10/24/2010 - 04:32 | 673028 scaleindependent
scaleindependent's picture


Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:20 | 671079's picture

Why did Bush give James Baker an White House office to use when he worked as legal counsel for the Saudis when they were sued by the 9/11 families?

Your cookie awaits.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:32 | 671114 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well I don't know Crockett...what did Bush tell you he did it for?

Did they sue in court? Who did they sue? The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia?

Got Milk? ;-)

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:49 | 671168's picture

Bush didn't explain to me why he helped in the defense of those who funded the 9/11 attacks. Maybe we should ask his brother Bandar.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 19:56 | 670837 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

No, it wasn't.  Wake the hell up, the "inside job" is a smokescreen to distract from what they really did.

What did they do?

They gutted all the security measures that would have prevented an attack, and just waited.

They have been trying to get us involved in a hot war in the ME since the Iranian revolution.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 20:52 | 670926 Rodent Freikorps
Rodent Freikorps's picture

Who is "they" exactly?

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:24 | 671085's picture

Start at the top. Read the August 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Brief. Then research the President's immediate reaction and the Administration's (complete lack of) preparations for the threatened attacks.

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 09:56 | 671734 MeTarzanUjane
MeTarzanUjane's picture

Did you say lack of preparations? What about the radar injections that happened that day from the wargame exercises?

What about the Tripod II setup over off the westside highway?

Did you say not prepared?

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:13 | 671030 sethco
sethco's picture

no shit, was NORAD on vacation that day? Fighter jets can be anywhere on the eastern seaboard in 8 minutes, yet we had a hijacked plane, off course, with its transponder turned off, flying toward DC for 20 minutes AFTER the two towers were hit. Too many holes in the story. Holes you could fly a commercial airliner through.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:27 | 671100's picture

There were war games (Operation Vigilant Guardian) involving theorectical hijacked aircraft going on the morning of 9/11. This added to the confusion on that day. Weird, huh?

Vigilant Guardian my ass.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:57 | 671190 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Lots of war games including one with the very same scenario. Then Condo Lease A said no one could have anticipated civillian aircraft being used this way. Very Weird Huh. And as you said, the NORAD response alone is overwhelming evidence not to mention the Pentagon's missle ability and the interesting testimony regarding the underling question to Dick "do the orders still stand?" and a million other things   

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 14:33 | 672103 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

same "war games" story happened at the time of the London underground bombings. . .

A fictional "scenario" of multiple bomb attacks on London's underground took place at exactly the same time as the bomb attack on July 7, 2005.

of course, just a(nother) coincidence. . .

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 16:09 | 672239 kathy.chamberli...'s picture

there are no coincidences...........

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 01:05 | 671448 Frankie Carbone
Frankie Carbone's picture

or two commercial airliners. 

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:01 | 671031 robobbob
robobbob's picture


since when does the mafia boss ever pull the trigger himself?

contrary to the movies, actual agents almost never get hands on. Just find the right type of personality, wind em up, and let nature take its course

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 06:49 | 671629 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

is that a l. h. oswald reference?

Sat, 10/23/2010 - 00:41 | 671408 The Rock
The Rock's picture

100% inside job.  Even if they gutted all the security measures and just watched, it is just as treasonous!

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 20:40 | 670906 midtowng
midtowng's picture

So you are saying that we only need to meet the standards of civilized conduct that the Saudis have set.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:09 | 671051 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Your saying their standard is less than ours...which is my point exactly. 

Just recognize they (the proponents of building the mosque right there) are rubbing our face with a soiled rag of liberty.

It's lawful here...but it's not there.

And just so the context of what I'm saying is not lost on a cut up is what you inquire about;

"If it had been christians or jews wanting to build a church or synagogue in the debris field after some in their faith had flown a plane through the Kingdom Centre's 84th. floor in Riyadh we wouldn't even be having this conversation...would we?"

So, if you feel our system of law is superior to a theocratic system, I would expect you to defend the fairness aspect of our law. Our law says they have a right as property owners to build it right there. Our law also says a bikini clad hot dog vendor can park his or her cart right outside.

Which to me...would be fair and profitable now ;-)

Six junks so far...I must be saying something correct...LOL.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 22:50 | 671110's picture

Your saying their standard is less than ours...which is my point exactly


Who is "they?" All Muslims are not the same just as all Jews or Christians are not the same. In America we have rights as individuals, not as members of special interest groups.

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 23:11 | 671223 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Win.  By KO

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 23:15 | 671237 nmewn
nmewn's picture

How many strawmen do I have to confront tonight?

It's pretty clear midtowng and I were discussing Saudi law as it relates to a theocracy run by a royal family (Saudi Arabia) and here (America) a representative republic.

If you've got somethin to say spit it won't get your head chopped off over it here unlike in Saudi Arabia ;-)

I know there are "moderates" in Islam. But if "they" can't progress the rest of their people (especially their women) and throw off kings to get into the 21st. century it's not my's theirs.

If "they" can't drop a dime on their cousin for strapping bombs on themselves and walking into restaurants or hijacking planes it's not my fault either.

It's theirs.

Life has consequences...even for inaction. 

Fri, 10/22/2010 - 23:20 | 671246 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Extremism is as extremism does.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!