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WikiLeaks Releases Iraq War Logs Which Detail Over 100,000 Deaths, Show US Ignored Torture, Expose Routine Friendly Fire
Wikileaks has lifted the embargo on what it dubs the biggest leak of American documents in history. The Guardian, which is the primary nexus of data collection, notes that almost "400,000 secret US army field reports have been passed to the
Guardian and a number of other international media organisations via the
whistleblowing website WikiLeaks. The electronic archive is believed to emanate from the same dissident US
army intelligence analyst who earlier this year is alleged to have
leaked a smaller tranche of 90,000 logs chronicling bloody encounters
and civilian killings in the Afghan war." The reports will likely do little to raise the US' standing in the eyes of the international community: "The numerous reports of detainee abuse, often supported by medical
evidence, describe prisoners shackled, blindfolded and hung by wrists or
ankles, and subjected to whipping, punching, kicking or electric
shocks. Six reports end with a detainee's apparent death."Additionally, the reports detail how friendly fire from US troops became routine: Americans have shot at their own troops or allies so often that in at least one case a strafed British vehicle didn't even stop. Since this will apparnetly now be the main story this weekend, might as well get a head start.
The new logs detail how:
- US authorities failed to investigate
hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape and even murder by Iraqi
police and soldiers whose conduct appears to be systematic and normally
unpunished. - A US helicopter gunship involved in a notorious
Baghdad incident had previously killed Iraqi insurgents after they tried
to surrender. - More than 15,000 civilians died in previously
unknown incidents. US and UK officials have insisted that no official
record of civilian casualties exists but the logs record 66,081
non-combatant deaths out of a total of 109,000 fatalities.
More from the Guardian:
As recently as December the Americans were passed a video apparently showing Iraqi army officers executing a prisoner
in Tal Afar, northern Iraq. The log states: "The footage shows
approximately 12 Iraqi army soldiers. Ten IA soldiers were talking to
one another while two soldiers held the detainee. The detainee had his
hands bound … The footage shows the IA soldiers moving the detainee into
the street, pushing him to the ground, punching him and shooting him."
The
report named at least one perpetrator and was passed to coalition
forces. But the logs reveal that the coalition has a formal policy of
ignoring such allegations. They record "no investigation is necessary"
and simply pass reports to the same Iraqi units implicated in the
violence. By contrast all allegations involving coalition forces are
subject to formal inquiries. Some cases of alleged abuse by UK and US
troops are also detailed in the logs.
In two Iraqi cases postmortems revealed evidence of death by torture. On 27 August 2009 a US medical officer found "bruises and burns as well as visible injuries to the head, arm, torso, legs and neck"
on the body of one man claimed by police to have killed himself. On 3
December 2008 another detainee, said by police to have died of "bad
kidneys", was found to have "evidence of some type of unknown surgical procedure on [his] abdomen".
A
Pentagon spokesman told the New York Times this week that under its
procedure, when reports of Iraqi abuse were received the US military
"notifies the responsible government of Iraq agency or ministry for
investigation and follow-up".
The logs also illustrate the readiness of US forces to unleash lethal force. In one chilling incident they detail how an Apache helicopter gunship gunned down two men in February 2007.
The
suspected insurgents had been trying to surrender but a lawyer back at
base told the pilots: "You cannot surrender to an aircraft." The Apache,
callsign Crazyhorse 18, was the same unit and helicopter based at Camp
Taji outside Baghdad that later that year, in July, mistakenly killed
two Reuters employees and wounded two children in the streets of
Baghdad.
Iraq Body Count, the London-based group that monitors
civilian casualties, says it has identified around 15,000 previously
unknown civilian deaths from the data contained in the leaked war logs.
Although
US generals have claimed their army does not carry out body counts and
British ministers still say no official statistics exist, the war logs
show these claims are untrue. The field reports purport to identify all
civilian and insurgent casualties, as well as numbers of coalition
forces wounded and killed in action. They give a total of more than
109,000 violent deaths from all causes between 2004 and the end of 2009.
This
includes 66,081 civilians, 23,984 people classed as "enemy" and 15,196
members of the Iraqi security forces. Another 3,771 dead US and allied
soldiers complete the body count.
No fewer than 31,780 of these
deaths are attributed to improvised roadside bombs (IEDs) planted by
insurgents. The other major recorded tally is of 34,814 victims of
sectarian killings, recorded as murders in the logs.
However, the
US figures appear to be unreliable in respect of civilian deaths caused
by their own military activities. For example, in Falluja, the site of
two major urban battles in 2004, no civilian deaths are recorded. Yet
Iraq Body Count monitors identified more than 1,200 civilians who died
during the fighting.
Legal action is already being prepared:
Phil Shiner, human rights specialist at Public Interest Lawyers, plans to use material from the logs in court to try to force the UK to hold a public inquiry into the unlawful killing of Iraqi civilians.
He also plans to sue the British government over its failure to stop the abuse and torture of detainees by Iraqi forces. The coalition's formal policy of not investigating such allegations is "simply not permissible", he says.
Shiner is already pursuing a series of legal actions for former detainees allegedly killed or tortured by British forces in Iraq.
As before, all the docs will be made available online:
WikiLeaks says it is posting online the entire set of 400,000 Iraq field reports – in defiance of the Pentagon.
The whistleblowing activists say they have deleted all names from the documents that might result in reprisals. They were accused by the US military of possibly having "blood on their hands" over the previous Afghan release by redacting too few names. But the military recently conceded that no harm had been identified.
Condemning this fresh leak, however, the Pentagon said: "This security breach could very well get our troops and those they are fighting with killed. Our enemies will mine this information looking for insights into how we operate, cultivate sources and react in combat situations, even the capability of our equipment."
There are many other stories emanating from the main portal, among which:
- The introduction- The leaking of more than 390,000 previously secret US military reports details the hidden realities of the war in Iraq (link)
- A look at Frago 242 - Secret order that let US ignore abuse;
Mistreatment of helpless prisoners by Iraqi security forces included
beatings, burning, electrocution and rape (link) - Iraq war logs: How friendly fire from US troops became routine: Americans have shot at their own troops or allies so often that in at least one case a strafed British vehicle didn't even stop (link)
- Apache crew killed insurgents who tried to surrender: US military legal adviser told helicopter crew that Iraqi men were valid targets as they could not surrender to aircraft (link)
- Iraq war logs reveal civilian body count of invasion is much higher (link)
- Civilians gunned down at checkpoints (link)
- Iran accused of plotting attack on Green Zone: Audacious strike in Baghdad among allegations against Tehran of everything from gun running to training insurgents (link)
- US fails to answer for deaths of journalists: Highest toll among Iraqi reporters caught in crossfire, mistaken for insurgents or murdered by countrymen in sectarian violence (link)
- Killings in the wake of Saddam's hanging: Brothers named after him were lynched along with their mother – while gallows mocking of dictator led to revenge bombing (link)
- Iraq war logs: US spy balloons blew towards Iran: Hi-tech JLens blimps with secret technology used to detect cruise missiles may have dropped into Tehran's lap (link)
A tabular summary of all the Associated Iraqi deaths is presented below:
The link also denotes the method of death on both sides.
The Guardian has also released a map of the deaths (which for now apparently is not working)
For those pressed for time, the below clip summarizes most of the key findings:
Sure enough, the Pentagon has immediately responded (via the New York Times):
“We deplore WikiLeaks for inducing individuals to break the law, leak
classified documents and then cavalierly share that secret information
with the world, including our enemies. We know terrorist organizations
have been mining the leaked Afghan documents for information to use
against us, and this Iraq leak is more than four times as large. By
disclosing such sensitive information, WikiLeaks continues to put at
risk the lives of our troops, their coalition partners and those Iraqis
and Afghans working with us. The only responsible course of action for
WikiLeaks at this point is to return the stolen material and expunge it
from their Web sites as soon as possible.
“We strongly condemn the unauthorized disclosure of classified
information and will not comment on these leaked documents other than to
note that ‘significant activities’ reports are initial, raw
observations by tactical units. They are essentially snapshots of
events, both tragic and mundane, and do not tell the whole story. That
said, the period covered by these reports has been well chronicled in
news stories, books and films, and the release of these field reports
does not bring new understanding to Iraq’s past.
“However, it does expose secret information that could make our troops
even more vulnerable to attack in the future. Just as with the leaked
Afghan documents, we know our enemies will mine this information,
looking for insights into how we operate, cultivate sources and react in
combat situations, even the capability of our equipment. This security
breach could very well get our troops and those they are fighting with
killed.”
Also, remember, the banks are not allowed to reveal anything about their own criminal ways because otherwise the world will end. Ah, the parallels.
And conveniently enough, here is an interview on the very topic between Dylan Ratigan and Pentagon Papers creator Daniel Ellsberg :
»
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So no Americans are involved? Well that's been proven wrong. Pretty sure some low level US service men already got hung out to dry for it.
Torture doesn't work for information. If most any of us are tortured we would admit to shooting Abe Lincoln. It's only good to get what a person want to hear.
Not sure what you are trying to get about impugning me. So I'm against torture and calling people out, but I lack morality...so it it moral to torture? Man did I miss the memo, I need to watch more tv...
Shameful, I will be honest, it is immoral to torture...but if torturing a bad guy save the life of my family, friends or brothers-in-arms, then I will be immoral and I will torture. When it comes down to survival, there are no rules. When you kill 3,000 of my civilians I will come after you with everything I have and I will do what I need to do to eliminate your kind from this earth. Its immoral as hell, but thats who I am.
Like Iraq had anything to do with 9-11?
Iraq supported terrorism. Close enough.
America funded Bin Laden AND Saddam. Does that mean I can put you on my table and rape and torture you until you die? Does that mean that the number of American civillians murdered by the government doesn't matter?
America gave intel to Saddam. His weapons were from the USSR. I'll wait while your brain resets....
America also gave to the northern Alliance who are not such crazies.
Pakistan's ISI created the Taliban. They are the assholes you should target.
And in the end, who gives a shit? If you attack my country, I don't care what our mutual history is, you die.
I see, you are ignorant then. Saddam was installed by the CIA in order to counter a radicalized Iran. Iran was radicalized in response to the CIA's installation of a dictator.
So I guess you should say "if you resist the US, or appear to look the same as someone who resists the US, you have to die. Also, everyone within a thousand mile radius as well."
Baby killer.
Saddam Hussein Abd al-Majid al-Tikriti (Arabic: ???? ???? ???????? ?add?m ?usayn ?Abd al-Maj?d al-Tikr?t?[1]; 28 April 1937[2] – 30 December 2006)[3] was the President of Iraq from 16 July 1979 until 9 April 2003.[4][5] A leading member of the revolutionary Ba'ath Party, which espoused secular pan-Arabism, economic modernization, and Arab socialism, Saddam played a key role in the 1968 coup that brought the party to long-term power.
CIA is psychic now?
Damn they are good.
Sucker of dictator cock.
You would be wrong.
Torture works wonders for information. Everyone breaks after three days. Just verify the info before executing them. Easy peasy.
Torture is useless for confession. All will confess.
There is a difference, and you can bet TPTB know it.
factual statements.
You've been watching too much 24.
I foresee a day when you will be on someone's torture table. You will have no right to complain as you are vivisected. You will deserve it, though not for the reason that they say they are doing it, if they even bother to come up with a reason.
To be honest with you, given your opinion, I would cut your heart out if given the chance. I hope you die before your poison can spread to anyone else, you piece of garbage.
The truth is the truth.
The hell of it is I did not give a pro or con opinion.
Why did the simple statement of truth so move you to sadism?
"torture works wonders for information" Amazing how you rejoice in killing Saddam yet praise his virtues. The epitomy of hypocrisy, the epitomy of what has gone wrong in America. The Founders nightmare
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I will defend western civilization by any means necessary. People like me have been muzzled. Wait for the eventual WMD strike on american soil. If Islam is stupid enough not to put down its own rabid animals, when the average soccer mom feels fear in her heart for her children, the missles will fly.
I do not have a problem sharing the world with Islam. But I will not surrender my part of it.
That's it, I'm convinced. You are the toughest guy on this site.
Thanks for the dose of humility.
This is one of favorite moral relativist strawman arguments -- the "someone's holding a gun to your wife's head..."
The US is not being held hostage. If we were, which we are not, then the trillions of dollars spent on defense each year is a total waste. No one is holding a gun to our collective heads. No one is stealing our babies in the middle of the night and threatening to rape them. US military personnel or journalists are sometimes taken hostage or prisoner. I've got a really great solution to preventing this from happening: leave this area of the world.
But even if the situation you describe above did occur and someone was holding your wife or children prisoner and you've got one of the thugs in a room with no windows, what is torturing this person going to accomplish? Will you find the secret hideout they're holding your kids? How do you know this person knows? How do you know that the thugs holding your kids don't already know that their buddy has been captured and will probably reveal their location? In the end, the answer is "i don't know" for all of those questions. It just makes you feel better. This is called bloodlust. I don't know what the policy equivalent for bloodlust is. I lump it into evil, emotional, reactionary, and animalistic.
President Barack Obama today sent to Congress a proposed defense budget of $663.8 billion for fiscal 2010. The budget request for the Department of Defense (DoD) includes $533.8 billion in discretionary budget authority to fund base defense programs and $130 billion to support overseas contingency operations, primarily in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Even with the "wars" your numbers are way off.
You moron. You'll be next on the table. Or your wife and children. Can't have a dangerous radical/cannibal like you running around. Surely you know all about the next big terror attack. The soldiers will rationalize the same way you are as they rape you with broomsticks and drive nails through your testicles. You see, they will just kill you after you talk, so no need to preserve your body.
You ARE the moral decline of America, you fucking piece of garbage.
Last time I checked the rape-by-broomhandle crown was owned by the NYC police. Not the military.
You are describing Hussein's minions -- mostly -- and yet you want to dump on US forces. That seems like a whole bunch of crazy.
It is the duty and responsibility of every officer in the armed services to expose illegal orders. Much of this activity would be considered illegal by the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). Wiki leaks is doing a favor for the idealist and a disservice to the pragmatist. We join the service to honor our country and ourselves this kind of behavior does neither.
Gimp, we invaded their country, we raped, we tortured, we murdered. I would seek revenge on anyone that did those things to my family too!
You understand revenge so then you understand why we took the actions we did. You can't take down the twin towers and not expect a reaction. May not be what anyone expected but there had to be a reaction. No reaction from the USS Cole. No reaction from US embassy bombings in Africa. No reaction from first bombing attempt of twin towers. Just how long are we supposed to allow someone to long dick us before we step up? Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining.
War sucks but that's what they wanted...I just wish we would've just negotiated and begged Bin Laden for forgiveness and kiss his ring and all this could've been avoided
You really need to study up on your recent history.
1) There was a reaction to the embassy bombings. Cruise missle attacks on two countries, including one on Afghanistan aimed at killing Bin Laden.
2) Iraq was not involved in 9/11 in any way. It was 100% a war of choice on our part. There was no national security rationale for our choice to start that war. Most analysts have concluded that at the time of the attack, Saddam actually posed less of a threat to us or our allies than at any time since the first Gulf War.
aHitting a couple of tents with no one in them does not count as a reaction. That was political grandstanding by Clinton to prove how tough he was. Furthermore where did I condone attacking Iraq. I wrote that you had to expect a reaction and a reaction is what the world got. I'm well aware of my history and I don't revise it like some. Anyone observing the world had to know Iraq was a target as Bush jr didn't like the way many people blamed his father for "not finishing the job" and going all the way to Bagdad. Bush Sr. was actually more prudent, did what he said he would do and got the hell out. Bush Jr. never got over the criticism though, much like his undoing of "Read my lips, no new taxes" See a pattern here. Of course you could just continue to lecture me on history if you want.
"I wrote that you had to expect a reaction and a reaction is what the world got."
What sort of defense is that? The world "had to expect a reaction" so our decision to blunder into the wrong, costly, decade-long war is justified somehow? What are you even talking about?
I would have loved the reaction from the rightwing if Clinton had launched a war over the embassy bombings. The rightwing TOTALLY would have supported that, and not claimed that he was just trying to "wag the dog." Riiiiiiight.
Chet, when you wake up in the morning do you see the world as a clean canvas and wonder what picture the events of the day will paint?
No, I see the world as one where what you do one day (for instance, start a war) greatly affects what is on your canvas in the future (say, seven and half years later.)
'While I would love to continue with this mind numbing discussion which neither one of us a have anything to gain from at this point I would much prefer to spend the next 3 hours of my life watching some baseball. Good luck Chet
Explain our attack on Serbia.
& Bosnia, Kosovo, Herzegovina, Sarajevo, described by psyops as the first humanitarian wars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War
Bin Laden is no more or less a piece of shit than the Bushes and Cheneys of the world. Each is responsible for mass murder.
The difference is that Bin Laden knew EXACTLY what would happen after 9/11 was pulled off: the US would bankrupt itself in a revenge-fuelled war frenzy. And so it happened, and here we are to deal with it. Fuckin great.
self-loathers of the world unite.
You're right, Steve.
Oh and most analyst concluded that years after the fact. Most analyst also threw aroung the terms "yellow cake uranium" and WMD's as well. Most analyst are real good after the fact.
Chet, hindsight is always 20/20. The fact is that the major intelligence services of the world, CIA, Russians, Germans and Brits all believed Sadaam's ruse about WMD. Additionally, Abu Nidal lived in Bagdad, he used to be the number one most wanted terrorist in the world until Bin Laden came along. Sadaam's secret police killed Nidal two weeks before we attacked...I wonder why?
Blah blah blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
The fact is that the major intelligence services of the world...
That simply isn't true. No one believed in the WMD except the American public. The Germans, for example, specifically warned that the Iraqi defector "Curveball" was lying. Colin Powell didn't believe a word of his UN speech but gave it anyway. Nobody fell for it but fools.
America kicks a little ass once in a while, part of the DNA make-up, if you don't like the culture please exit now...
Fool
Weekend warrior jingoism. Go play some more Call of Duty, tough guy.
Moronic. Take your own advice, and stick your head in the sand and pretend patriots didn't die so you could live to say that.
Fool.
No soldier in Iraq died so that I could live. Not one. Because Iraq was zero threat to me.
Chet, it does not matter what threat you recognize. You could easily be wrong. You are a pylon on the road of life. The US is over in Iraq and Afganistan so that the evil over there doesn't march down your road and hurt someone everyone cares about.
By that logic we should attack every country, because there may or may not be a threat we recognize there.
Conservatives can be funny in their total distrust for almost all government, but total credulity when it comes to the military.
Let me put it this way to you. Guys like Dick Cheney LOVE guys like you. You're unquestioning support for the military is the reason they can do things like invade Iraq.
chet, you are right. our constitution was against a standing army for the exact reason that it could be exploited by industrial forces in foreign wars. Since our army was never disbanded after WWII, this exact scenario has been realized again and again.
Our Constitution allows for a Navy to protect our shores. These days, an Air Force to protect our borders is also in order. Otherwise, State militias and an armed citizenry is more than sufficient to repel/discourage foreign invaders and, more likely these days, to repel/discourage oppressive Federal government tyrants.
As it relates to torture, of course, America is far from the only perpetrator of these types of crimes, which is why I am reticent to self-loathe with everyone here. The phrase "War is hell" may sound cliche, but it is also quite factually true. Our soldiers are young kids who lose buddies virtually every single day. For them, the war IS very, very personal. I can understand how some of them might freely torture their enemies for the purposes of revenge and/or if they felt it could save some of our own soldiers in the future.
Remember, "the enemy" is sawing off the heads of the living. This, too, is torture of the highest order. I can see where war turns each side into the very animals we claim to fight. I do not condone it, but rather understand the complicated psychological effect upon those young men and women who wear our uniforms and fight our State sponsored battles.
ABOVE ALL, this is a WAR OF IDEAS. As such, it will be won in the minds of global inhabitants long before it can ever be won in fields of battle. Importantly, we cannot win this war by engaging in the exact type of brutality that we condemn. This gives "the enemy" rightful ammunition against our way of life. Any "policy of torture" is out of the question, and all other torture should be reprimanded severely as a war crime or otherwise because we have too much at stake. Again, if we do not win the war of ideas, then we have no chance of succeeding long-term. Right now, I do not believe that we are winning the war of ideas, because it has become clear to me that our country has been hijacked by industrial forces.
Muslim folks are like any other folks that simply wish the best for themselves and their children. What makes some Muslim folks "wrong" is that some believe that those of us who do not believe in the full message of Islam should either convert to Islam or be executed as infidels. Of course, this is not liberty, so if any crusading Muslim ever showed up on my doorstep to convert me or my family, then I would be forced to defend myself accordingly.
Obviously, today, this is not what is taking place overseas. We have become the aggressors. Retaliatory efforts from the attacks on September 11th should have been targeted and carried out with targeted intelligence and special forces/air strikes. Nation building has helped nobody but the Wall Street and Military Industrial Complexes. We could defend our country and our borders ten times over with the money we have handed over to the private enterprises, along with the precious lives of our brave young men and women, in order to destroy Iraq and (what exists of) Afghanistan.
bottom line: these wars WOULD NOT EVEN BE POSSIBLE if we did not allow for deficit spending at the Federal level, fiat-based money, centralized money planning, and fractional reserve lending, all of which currently facilitate the enrichment of the banking and military industrial complex at the expense of our freedom.
Great strides would be made towards ending current and future foreign wars if we were to end The Fed, outlaw fractional reserve counterfeiting, and open up our economy to competing currencies including gold and silver.
Achieving this would pull the teeth of both the banking cartel and the military industrial complex who continue to collude against both us and what few liberties we still have in America. Future wars would only be fought by volunteer armies with volunteered private gold and silver in pure defense of our lives and freedoms here. Any war would then be just and I would pity the invaders.
This is a far cry from where we find ourselves today. It is very, very sad, and should enrage us all.
Rest assure, there are far greater terrorists in Washington D.C. and within the Federal Reserve Bank of New York than there are in either Iraq or Afghanistan. These truly "domestic terrorists" will continue to cost many more lives as they relate to foreign wars, in addition to the divorces, murders, and suicides that are caused by artificially prolonged boom/bust cycles that these career politicians and private bankers propagate with their elitist agendas.
One day I look forward to us all defeating them through a velvet revolution OR OTHERWISE.
This comment by Chopper is by far the best I have read .........so far
good job!
Yes, and the tooth fairy is real.
Yes, and the tooth fairy is real.
Then kill him! KILL HIM!
A lot of human slime is revealing itself in this thread.
You are moral decay. You deserve the future you are going to get.
Dear JLEE2027
It is hard to get a man to understand something when his job depends on him not understanding.
Upton Sinclair
Hey mustardseed, so you are saying the Saddam and his secret police never raped, tortured or murdered anyone?
Ever been to the Middle East? Women get stoned to death after they have been raped by their cousin. SOrt of a double fucking...
Your logic is not logical. Your excuse is no excuse
Hey mustardseed, so you are saying the Saddam and his secret police never raped, tortured or murdered anyone?
Hey Gimp, so you are saying that the US is no better than Saddam?
Ever been to the Middle East? Women get stoned to death after they have been raped by their cousin. SOrt of a double fucking...
If you don't like the culture, please exit now...
Why haven't we invaded Saudi Arabia, where this type of thing happens weekly? Why did we install Saddam in the first place, then give him chemical weapons and explicitly instruct him to use them on civilians?
Or did you forget about this: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg
I bet you could justify raping an infant, so long as it was brown.
With a name like WhackoWarner "fool" means nothing.
Just let the Euro trash hot air waft by.
It is how they convince themselves they are still relevant.
Few points.
I do not think anyone else in the world, would be or has ever been as nice as us when they go or went to war. Unfortunately, civilians are always unintended or otherwise victims in any armed conflict.
Now, while I do think it was absolutely stupid (!!!) on the part of our government to go to the war, let's not forget that the government of Iraq at that time could do plenty to avoid it & did nothing to do so. It takes two to tango...
There is another victim in this conflict, our troops who are forced by the stupid government to take unneeded losses and go on with unneeded patrol/occupation of the civilians areas due to flowed policies and "someone" trying to save the national face. As the result such an action only increases casualties on both sides.
Wars are never fair. And when one starts the war, ether by will or by necessity, the best way to proceed is to be committed to finishing it. I see little will from our government to do so, for them it's all about "point the finger away" game.
And the kicker is, we all somewhat are responsible for the war since it is us that tolerate our government. (Same could be said about the other side.)
let's not forget that the government of Iraq at that time could do plenty to avoid it & did nothing to do so.
Iraq opened up the entire country to UN inspectors who found no weapons. But that wasn't good enough for you, I suppose.
haha,
it's like f anarchist anonymous tonight in here - no logical argument is required.
Would you care to expand on that answer with something makes sense?
Why should I make sense when such an action is nether required nor expected? I mean based on your f. previous reply do you think you have provided more sense beyond a statement of four years old child ?
You said: "let's not forget that the government of Iraq at that time could do plenty to avoid it & did nothing to do so."
I said: "Iraq opened up the entire country to UN inspectors who found no weapons. But that wasn't good enough for you, I suppose."
The facts show that the Iraqis did, in fact, go to substantial lengths to avoid war despite your assertion that they "did nothing." You can pretend that this is not an effective refutation of your position, nevertheless, it is true.
So another one can be declared. Building up on war is fun but too many at a time ruin the fun.
Everthing with moderation.
My logic is reality, real world, real human behavior, greed and fear, there are no excuses. Get out of your comfy, Starbucks in the morning life and travel around the world. Life is hard for most of the less privileged people in the world.
... and thus you must "kick its ass" to stay morally above them. Strange, hypocritical logic Gimp. You've become them
There is no excuse for the activities detailed in the Wiki leaks story, if true. Try asking some veterans not some shit head that has never put his or his friends life on the line for Duty or Country. Get some one to chime in from WW2 or Korea.
Here's some words from a WW2 vet.
General Patton's Speech to the Third Army
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE5UFLoBlBA
When are you signing up?
I served during the cold war.
If they'll lower their standards, I'm there.
Seriously, us gray hairs can hold fixed positions, and let the young ones rotate stateside for longer with their families.
Someone look into that.
Become a mercenary. Find a way over there if it's that important to you.
I figure my best bet is to learn Farsi ;)
Rosetta Stone here I come.
'Taxi to the Dark Side' covers this exactly, at the end of the movie there is an interview with a WW2 Navy interrogator.
Rodent you are correct, some Euro trash who is hiding behind the protection the U.S. Military provides at U.S. Taxpayers expense.
Except for the Brits, most of the Europeans would have surrendered to Saddam to avoid a conflict!
Didn't the Brits just recently surrender their souls for a BP oil deal with Lybia?
Seems I remember something about that.
And how can France take any kind of high road when they helped facilitate the Rwandan genocide?
And the Chinese govt. is, in effect, an owner of one billion slaves.
I wouldn't exactly call "not invading a non-threatening country" "surrender".
But then, you're a violent sociopathic baby killer, so I guess there is little point in talking to you.
I've never killed a baby. Not even aborted one like the left seems so fond of.
Protect the innocent, punish the guilty.
That is too simple to misunderstand.
So, I must ask, why are you so adamant to defend all that is evil?
it's not that he defends evil, its that he sees it in more places than one, including his own backyard unlike you
He defends leaving evil dictators in place, but does not defend evil.
Sure.
Are you a lawyer?
It's doubtful.
Any decent lawyer would decline a case against a mass murdering thug and his two genuinely evil bastard son's, Uday & Qusay, in favor of a Wiki document dump with no context.
General Sada knows where the remaining WMD's are. They are most likely still there...in the only other Baathist state on the planet.
Once again you got me. WikiLeaks is the only piece of evidence related to this war, it reasons, and our behavior there.
Well...WikiLeaker is apparently also providing a little more than some on the left had expected.
"Nearly three years later, American troops were still finding WMD in the region. An armored Buffalo vehicle unearthed a cache of artillery shells “that was covered by sacks and leaves under an Iraqi Community Watch checkpoint. “The 155mm rounds are filled with an unknown liquid, and several of which are leaking a black tar-like substance.” Initial tests were inconclusive. But later, “the rounds tested positive for mustard.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/10/wikileaks-show-wmd-hunt-continued-in-iraq-with-surprising-results/
Look Davey...war is a fucked way of doing things...but it is the final arbitration between states or the several people within a state when all else fails.
My opinion was always to kick ass and get out...the blue helmets can now go in and lose what was gained for the Iraqi people to the Iranians...I really don't care...but Saddam was a demon along with his son's who used chemical weapons on the Kurds and had their own private torture & rape chambers for their personal amusement...your not going to make much headway defending them by dragging American troops following orders through the mud...which was my main purpose of posting on this thread. For clarity's sake, I'm also against our military bases in Europe artificially propping up those economies. You can have the last word if you wish. SeeYaThe bad news here is the loss of American troops. I do not think the loss of one American Military person is worth 1,000 of any other nation. A kill ratio of 10,000 to one, maybe, depending upon how high the stakes are.
Go kill a baby for Christ.
Now you are just being a dick.
In the immortal words of Buggs Bunny, "Awwww, shut up!"
Shshshshshsh...I'm wabbit hunting.
This story has no business at ZH. Clip it now. WTF! this is political shit. We are here to kill financial terrorism.
buying puts feel like financial terrorism right now which actually proves I am a douche for doing it poorly.
It's all connected pb
Payne, I am six generation military vet, family has served in every fucked-up war the US has had over the past 100+ years. My Dad was in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. His Father was in WWI and so on down the line. It is only people or families that have actually fought for this country (the USA is not perfect) that understand the horrors and sacrifices made in war. Yes, innocent people get killed, torture happens. When the fighting starts, chaos begins and a lot of unintended actions happen. Blame the politicians for sending the troops not the troops. BTW - I did not agree with going into Iraq either but once our men and women are there don't bad mouth them for their mistakes unless you are willing to take their place.
Gimp, hit the little "reply" tag under the entry you're trying to respond to.
why are you blaming the troops??? the politicos need to press the right reply button for him!
Right. And blame the gun for killing the person it shoots.
"Got into a card game in a company town
I caught a miner cheating, I shot the dog down
I shot the dog down, I watched the man fall
He never touched his holster, never had a chance to draw
The trial was in the morning and they drug me out of bed
Asked me how I pleaded, not guilty I said
Not guilty I said, you've got the wrong man
Nothing touched the trigger but the devil's right hand
The devil's right hand, the devil's right hand
Mama says the pistol is the devil's right hand"
I am six generation military vet
Can relate G
Peace be with you
Free tuition, free healthcare, free housing. Must have been generations of free in your family.
In old days, this was called living off blood money.
Before the US duplicity kicked in indeed.
Your ignorance is showing.
A young man who does not have what it takes to perform military service is not likely to have what it takes to make a living.
--John F. Kennedy--
Typical liberal claptrap. They liked to disguise their piss poor economic policies with conquest. To do that, they needed dumbshit kids to sign up for their meatgrinders.
This country didn't need a fucking standing army for more than a hundred years, and we don't need one now. You can't defend freedom by killing brown people. Allowing and participating in the formation of a state of constant war can do nothing but destroy freedoms.
You are a tool of oppression. Kudos, you piece of trash.
Stand down the armies. Use nukes as a first choice.
I can live with that.
Can you?
I think the Canadian and mexican menaces can be dealt with without an army. A Navy and a nuclear deterrent is sufficient for everything else.
If an invading army should ever set foot upon American shores, their homeland will be a glass crater. No need to go about killing babies in foreign wars, as much as some people love stomping baby skulls.
Are you including Planned Parenthood and Pres. Obama in those wishing for dead babies?
If not, why not?
Did you know Margaret Sanger started Planned Parenthood because she thought there were too may black babies being born?
Do you know the ethnicity of the majority of aborted babies?
Seems Margaret's dream is not only coming true, it is about to be funded by tax dollars. Tell me how this is a good thing?
The leftist's who push eugenics will never admit or comment on such things...good luck with that ;-)
self-loathers of the world unite.
+1.
The most embarrasing part of the photo is that the guy had on such a ridiculous pair of underwear..
Last posting of this of the day
how many of us have them? (a playlist): http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=2D93C314EE324D8B
and also if you haven't yet, check out Conrad_Murray's playlist from earlier this week. its a real scorcher :D
Hump Day: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=D78860E6821CDD13&feature=bf
The truth is classified, therefore divulging it is seditious and means you are an enemy of the State and a criminal.
All this should underscore is the LAUGHABILITY of the notion that we can have a sterile war where "civilians" won't get killed. This puts a fork into the whole "we only hit military targets" and can surgically regime change States we don't like. Our shock and awe and whole "precision bombing" mantra is shown to be a load of horseshit.
+1
no life - I am sure some USA haters will call the "ridiculous pair of underwear" a horrible torture tool.
And for you USA hating pussies who cheered when the Marine Barracks in Lebanon were blown-up, Towers in Saudi Arabia, Embassy in Kenya, Cole in Yemen, Video taped be-headings of CIVILIANS put on the Internet for the world to see....FUCK U
strawman argument:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
+ a lot
You hate America.
I do?
If you don't hate America then why are you doing your best to drag it down and cover it in filth?
Are you gonna ask me when I quit beating my wife next?
What a bullshit question.
Wanna get back on topic?
I'll take "What's with the Savage Blood Lust?" for $200, Alex.
I'll take that as a no.
All you do is attack people personally and spew crap that you call fact which is verifiably innacurate. Why don't you stop with the personal attacks and provide supporting documentation for your statements. Then maybe, the big people will let you join the conversation.
the previous was directed at CrockettAlmanac
Let me understand this. You want to see Arab men raped in the name of American freedom but you are offended by personal attacks?
Crockett, of course I do not want to see Arab men raped. I don't want to see Arab women or children raped either. I don't wan't to see innocent Arab people killed. I don't want to see any innocent civilian raped or killed from any country, culture, ethnicity, religion or whatever. Maybe this is why you're a dumb fucktard...because you have assume without asking questions or without listening. Anyone who disagrees with you is an Arab hater...and that's not true.
Your support of torture has destroyed you morality. You are no longer a human being. Kudos.
Enjoy your broomstick rape, terrorist (you don't like the banksters, which will make you a terrorist one day). You will deserve every second of it.
why shouldn't a good person hate that which is wrong?
i suggest you have a listen to: my country my ass.
its a nice little song for you crockett.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19cEc_DVRrI
America is a great place with beautiful people. Just because some maniacs think that it's good to rape Arab men and boys for freedom doesn't make me and my neighbors bad people. We stand up against that crap. We're just the little folks but we're getting stronger every day.
no im sure you and your neighbors are basically good people, to each other. but just because many germans didn't know about the concentration camps doesnt mean that made it ok. just because you and your neighbors are good, doesn't mean the actions of our military, or the foreign powers we support, are good.
you and your neighbors is not the same thing as your government and what it does overseas. so have a spine and make sure no one is murdering in your name.
With sincerity, take this to heart as you read it.
1) The people who love the US follow the constitution. They point out what is right and wrong no matter how popular. They cheerleader doing the right thing.
2) There is absolute proof that thugs control the government, take advantage of our military for their own purposes, and that small mafia's under the name of various security agencies and large mafia's like the CIA are all competing for money from us the people for their own ambitions. The people, we are THE USA. Hating the thugs and mafias is not "USA hating."
3) Just because you come from a military family and wear your history on your sleeve, does not compel you to support anything into the future. You can be proud and right. The hardest thing you'll ever do is admit you are wrong.
4) When you swear like that, we know you're having an internal battle. Make your little list, cross out your knowledge that the thugs don't give a millisecond of care about you or your military family, that war is a racket, cross that out with the whatever it takes (a bombing here or there are many, and some gross violence unrelated).
PTSD
Lived with it almost every day of my life until my WWII Korea vet father died.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorder
The military guards the perimeter. They do not make policy.
If the govt. needs fixing, fix it. The military will buy you the time and space you need, but they do not have the option of choosing sides.
Do not blame the military because you let the federal government rot.
Bullshit - the military is part of the welfare state like most of america. You fake hawks say how the liberals are so dove, but why the hell don't YOU finish the job? Too pussy to wipe 'em out? Must be a bleeding heart inside all that bluster.
What, there is no goal to finish?? Exactly. Only Endless War Profiteering. Don't work yourself outta a job, take it easy...
I'm not defending the dumbass policies of US govt.
If someone attacks us, or aids those who do, we should destroy them utterly and go back home. If the people who re-populate the region attack us, we do it again.
Very simple and cost effective.
Iraq has never once in the history of the planet Earth, attacked the US.
So, when are you going to fulfill your oath to the US constitution?
You should be hung for treason.
Abu Nidal, bitch.
Chemical weapons used against civilians.
Basically being a dickhead.
I am totally good with killing dictators. I guess you like evil socialist dictators.
Give aid and comfort to America's enemies and die.
Abu Nidal? The guy Saddam Hussein had assassinated? Try again, moron.
Chemical weapons used against civillians? Did you forget where he got them? We GAVE them to him and TOLD him to use them on the Kurds!
YOU are an enemy of America. Not some god damn towelhead in a cave on the other side of the planet. YOU create new enemies every day. YOU murder babies. YOU condon torture. YOU invade countries that have never once in history commited agression against the United States. YOU take our freedoms in the name of safety. YOU rendition innocent men to foreign lands to be brutalized for years.
You will hang one day, and justice will be served. "Just following orders" won't excuse you any more than it did the Nazis.
Chemical weapons used against civillians? Did you forget where he got them? We GAVE them to him and TOLD him to use them on the Kurds!
Fuck you, you lying sack of shit.
+1
you don't get it. if the USA IS invading, torturing, murdering, plundering. why shouldn't good people of this planet hate that which is wrong?
by letting your government off the hook with a my country right or wrong attitude of a child, you are encouraging more hate.
+1
Gimp, you've got a right to be heard. your viewpoints are fully understandable.
Interesting comment thread , 90+ in and no one wonders why this guy didn't reach room temperature some time ago
Another theory could be that someone wants to get the troops out. 1) Like in the 1960, the anti-war movement was secretly sponsored by the government that realized it needed to pull out of costly Vietnam war. 2) Or globalist forces are trying to take down usa.
one wonders why this guy didn't reach room temperature some time ago
Who does he report to?
War is hell. I'm not saying we should be there, but any time you put troops into action, you get ugly results, every time! I'm not defending it, but it happens. This has happened throughout history, but the history was then written by the victors. Now we have live 24-hours news embedded with the troops and wikileaks and the like to expose it all. Just like making sausage, you don't want to see it, you just want the results. Maybe with this being public, we will have fewer such engagements. But when we do, I'm sorry to say, it will be no different, no matter who is fighting whom.
None of the last three presidents to take us into war saw battle.
Most with battle experience are slow to start fights, but finish them.
When was the last time we won a war?
when was the last time 'winning' was a goal?
thats why war should be avoided and not started on purpose to make people rich or for obscure geopolitical goals.
Aside from the fact that this self absorbed, hero-to-himself, grandstanding loser has exposed our dirty little secrets (EVERYONE has some) and put our troops and allies in harms way, I think his timing clearly shows he would like to impact the election in our country. He should be put on the same hit list as the US citizen turned Al Queda. This bozo has put to many lives at risk, and for what?...his own sense of grandiosity and importance? He has committed an act of treachery which will probably cost lives. He started a dangerous game and he should learn first hand the real world consequnces for his actions...he should die.
Anything that undermines the crediblity of the U.S. Government can only be a good thing for most people. Too bad about its enforcers, who unfortunately keep it going, but Assange giving everyone a reality check is most welcome by me.
"He has committed an act of treachery which will probably cost lives." Well, chum, so has the Government against its people, as the leaked documents clearly show.
Zelt, are you german? My father is a kraut a survivor of the Berlin bombings in WW2. You sound like a kraut. Every government has dirty secrets just as you do (have yo ever had a naughty fanatsy). Every war has atrocities, there is no way around it. The fact that we keep records and reports to learn from our mistakes is a good thing. I'm not excusing the bad things that happen, but I am also realistic enough to know that war is a brutal and ugly thing.
The US Government has good things going for it and bad things going for it. The good thing is that it usually represents the goodwill of the American people. The bad thing is that it has corrupt empire builders in the (huge) bureaucracy that muck things up for everyone. We need to clean up that part of our government, as do you with yours. It is a never ending ongoing task. Our credibility will never be shot, because people in need know there is one place people care enough and have the guts to make a difference, and it ain't where you live, pal.
HAH!
A child building lego castles is closer to empire building than we are. We are thugs and gangs, reckless, all over the places, shooting ourselves in the foot.
Empire builders are the Chinese. And THEY generally represent the goodwill of their people- managing a billion ain't easy.