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Wikileaks Reopens In Sweden

Tyler Durden's picture




 

The Wikileaks ouster lasted all of a few hours. As of right now, the company has switched its DNS to Sweden, from where it continues operating. But not before Wikileaks tweeted the following response to Amazon's action: "WikiLeaks tweeted in response: "WikiLeaks servers at Amazon ousted. Free speech the land of the free – fine our $ are now spent to employ people in Europe."

A trace on the latest DNS, courtesy of Karl Denninger:

% Information related to '46.59.0.0/17AS8473'

route:          46.59.0.0/17
descr:          Bahnhof Internet, Sweden
origin:          AS8473
mnt-by:       BAHNHOF-NCC
source:        RIPE # Filtered

% Information related to '91.121.0.0/16AS16276'

route:          91.121.0.0/16
descr:          OVH ISP
descr:          Paris, France
origin:          AS16276
mnt-by:       OVH-MNT
source:        RIPE # Filtered

Basically this goes to show just how futile it is to attempt blocking servers in the internet where it takes a few keystrokes to change a client. It also brings up the point of how much further the US will go in its attempt to shut up the internet and ways to bypass such seizures. An interesting analysis out of TorrentFreaks contemplates a BitTorrent based DNS which would make shutting down sites virtually impossible.

In a direct response to the domain seizures by US authorities during the last few days, a group of established enthusiasts have started working on a DNS system that can’t be touched by any governmental institution.

Ironically, considering the seizure of the Torrent-Finder meta-search engine domain, the new DNS system will be partly powered by BitTorrent.

In recent months, global anti-piracy efforts have increasingly focused on seizing domains of allegedly infringing sites. In the United States the proposed COICA bill is explicitly aimed at increasing the government’s censorship powers, but seizing a domain name is already quite easy, as illustrated by ICE and Department of Justice actions last weekend and earlier this year.

For governments it is apparently quite easy to take over the DNS entries of domains, not least because several top level domains are managed by US-based corporations such as VeriSign, who work closely together with the US Department of Commerce. According to some, this setup is a threat to the open internet.

To limit the power governments have over domain names, a group of enthusiasts has started working on a revolutionary system that can not be influenced by a government institution, or taken down by pulling the plug on a central server. Instead, it is distributed by the people, with help from a BitTorrent-based application that people install on their computer.

According to the project’s website, the goal is to “create an application that runs as a service and hooks into the hosts DNS system to catch all requests to the .p2p TLD while passing all other request cleanly through. Requests for the .p2p TLD will be redirected to a locally hosted DNS database.”

“By creating a .p2p TLD that is totally decentralized and that does not rely on ICANN or any ISP’s DNS service, and by having this application mimic force-encrypted BitTorrent traffic, there will be a way to start combating DNS level based censoring like the new US proposals as well as those systems in use in countries around the world including China and Iran amongst others.”

It is sad that the US (and soon other) government has forced enthusiasts to find increasingly shady means of avoiding suspension of free speech. We are confident that the Wiki case is by far not the last one where a website will be shut down for distributing "disagreeable" content. We are also confident that the kind of response espoused by Lieberman today will only make reprisals by the likes of Wiki that much more potent.

 

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Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:07 | 769605 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Good.  Let's get the bank details out now.

 

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:13 | 769633 koaj
koaj's picture

+1. i havent been teased this much since i went to a happy ending place

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:23 | 769904 Dont Taze Me Bro
Dont Taze Me Bro's picture

Yeah I hope he releases the bank details quick. I am worried he is a dead man walking at the moment.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 20:12 | 770245 LMAO
LMAO's picture

Well ATM he's too busy blackening out all the names of all the bankstas involved. But hey, if TPTB continue to play the game in this fashion he might ass well show them the stinky "sex-crime" finger and release the whole shitload uncensored.

Julian, did you read this?

 

LMAO

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 23:05 | 770649 TuffsNotEnuff
TuffsNotEnuff's picture

First, Julian Assange reminds me of the kid in front of the tanks. Same risks, immediately and after the event.

Second, he reminds me of Dr. King, who I met in Alachua, Florida.

Third, when we get to his funeral I am going. Anywhere. He is owed that by anyone who believes that Madison, Jefferson & Co. were right.

There's also got to be some safe way to get money to them. Hell, I've become something of a coward in my old age.

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 04:52 | 771215 Mentaliusanything
Mentaliusanything's picture

Lismore boys stick like the volcanic red soil of the area does to anything it touches.

He is well supplied with he money he needs.

His needs are small and simple.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:27 | 769921 espirit
espirit's picture

Me too. Notice BofA crashed on the announcement of the leak, and rocketed up when the website was shut down!

Short BAC tomorrow.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:36 | 769731 jesus_quintana
jesus_quintana's picture

Just wanna get it near the top: FUCK AMAZON. They've shown today whose side they're on, and it's not ours. I'll never buy anything from those cunts again.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:43 | 769767 gunsmoke011
gunsmoke011's picture

I have to agree - I actually buy quite a bit from Amazon because of the convenience of it all. But for them to show what they are REALLY made of - it is all about the dollar and the threat of the government making it harder for them to compete - or stay in business -- I will not be buying anything from them again either. I suggest others consider the same. It is after all one of the few things we still have control over -- where we spend our moeny.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:04 | 769825 Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

Amazon are just business. Maybe they are on the wrong side this time and its stock is being propped by the FED, but the politicians on both sides including prominent republicans are cowards not realizing what is constitutional and what is not.

They think that most people are against this guy and they will eventually pay the price by trampling the constitution.

If any politician has the cojones to speak out about this, please go out and declare it. "You will be a man my son." <<To paraphrase Kipling's "If".>>

I am sure that wikileaks will lay out some dirty laundry for many of you.

So far I have only heard judge Andrew Napolitano, going against the trend.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 19:06 | 770064 Bob
Bob's picture

It's ironic that the hubris of the dispicable dweebs who represent us and those who find wonder in government employ is so profoundly retarded.  They clearly believe that the lifeless beige matrix they command is representative of the larger human animal.  These twats are in for a serious awakening. 

The funny thing is that they have so insulated themselves from reality by means of the cynically empty matrix of their making that they truly cannot and will not see it coming. 

Poetic justice, surely. 

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 19:45 | 770195 cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

but, but....but, Bob...they be representin' us, don't they?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 22:54 | 770611 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

what's amazon's best competition?  what should happen to lieberman?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:49 | 770015 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

Amazon HAS to place nice with the gov since they are forever begging to avoid sales tax applied to their sales...  once that goes into effect, they are finished

 

laws threaten all

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 21:04 | 770372 Phil
Phil's picture

Dark

you nailed it

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:22 | 769899 barkingbill
barkingbill's picture

exactly boycott the fuckers. who needs them. i was buying a book from them a week. well that is over now. ive got enough books i havent read yet anyway....AMAZON....YOU LOST MY MONEY DIRTBAG CORPORATE ESTABLISHMENT SCUM! NEVER A PENNY FROM ME ANYMORE! MAYBE PALIN WILL BUY YOUR BOOKS! too bad her and her kind don't read. 

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:50 | 770019 bb5
bb5's picture

good observation about Palin

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:51 | 770024 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

One small step closer to accomplishing the goal: BURN DOWN THE HOUSE!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:57 | 770039 Haywood Jablowme
Haywood Jablowme's picture

FUCK AMAZON

amen!

 

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:06 | 769844 LongSoupLine
LongSoupLine's picture

Continuity of Operations...bitchez!

 

+1000 for releasing bank data NOW!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:12 | 769861 patience...
patience...'s picture

Land of the free, home of the brave.

Now a hacker is the national hero for shutting down WikiLeaks.

Throw the MoFo in jail.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:41 | 769974 Joe Sixpack
Joe Sixpack's picture

"Let's get the bank details out now."

 

Alright. Here it is:

 

THE BIG BANKS ARE INSOLVENT.

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 01:48 | 771024 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Arpanet, the precursor of the internet, was designed to withstand Nukular attacks on server locations, and these jokers THINK they can stuff the Djinni back in the bottle at this late date?  Their only choice right now is to try to shut down the entire internet, killing eCommerce in the process -- so long any chances of economic recovery!  Gimme some of whatever it is they're smokin'!

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 02:54 | 771121 i-dog
i-dog's picture

"so long any chances of economic recovery!"

I don't think that would bother them at all ... indeed, they would see it as an advantage! Their new motto is: "All your dollars and property are belong to us!"

However, without the internet, they would not be able to communicate with each other, or give orders to their storm troopers, or run their surveilance networks, or monitor the prison camps, or pilot their drones, or........................

We're keeping the internet !! :)

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 10:42 | 771517 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture
Wikileaks founder Julian Assange has close links to the Economist, controlled by the Rothschild banking family By Jane Burgermeister at birdflu666.wordpress.com "Julian Assange, the Wikileaks founder who plans to leak bank documents that will take down „one or two“ major banks according to Forbes, has won an award from the Economist, a magazine belonging to the Economist group, half of which is owned by the Financial times, a subsidiary of Pearson PLC. A group of independent shareholders, including many members of the staff and the Rothschild banking family of England." http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2010/12/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-has.html
Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:07 | 769606 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Told ya ...

Free speech !!! Viva'

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:10 | 769616 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

What a bullshitter you are. First it's "he's a rat" now it's "free speech FTW"

Get another hobby, you suck at this one.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:16 | 769644 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

You think you're talking to someone with a working functional brain. You're NOT.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:16 | 769645 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Its a joke ....

We will see how this plays out and how much change takes place. Change never seems to happen no matter the pledge.

 

 

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:23 | 769681 jus_lite_reading
jus_lite_reading's picture

There is some truth in what you say. However, buying all spot silver might just do the trick.  There's no turning back

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:24 | 769684 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

No, you are a joke. And nobody is pledging jack, knock that off. It's a process. Without a process for getting things done we're as good as lost.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 23:37 | 770738 thefatasswilly
thefatasswilly's picture

If by "we," you mean America, you are already lost.

Speak seriously to anyone of my generation. Attempt to discuss the issues that actually matter.

My generation is the future, and because of this, the future is indeed bleak for America.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 20:13 | 770246 painequalschange
painequalschange's picture

If you want to make change you have to inflict pain

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 23:41 | 770745 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

you mean you cant get out of debt by creating more? ...shit

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 01:50 | 771028 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Time to starve this particular Troll...

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:14 | 769635 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

'Told ya'? Hey dipshit 2 hours ago you were ranting about how Asange was a dirty rat and the Goobermint is right to shut him down. Now Smailes kid get busy and eat that booger I bet $100 on it!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:19 | 769660 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Hey Fuck-a-dog/sheep-#1,

 

Tell me something about finance/trading ?

 

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:24 | 769683 downrodeo
downrodeo's picture

hey SS, tell me something about the market in red herrings...

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:26 | 769690 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Tell me something ....

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:47 | 769783 Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

How about manners?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:53 | 769800 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

On .......... ?

Every post I blast someone in they toss out the name calling first or said country has it coming ....

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 19:14 | 770104 Bob
Bob's picture

You fucked yourself, sweetie.  You might wanna transfer to a new school. 

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 01:54 | 771034 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Identifying yourself as an unapologetic supporter of TPTB, revelling in the largesse that they provide at the expense of the entire World, does indeed demand exile!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:54 | 769805 downrodeo
downrodeo's picture

HA! on ZH, or any internet forum for that matter? You may as well search for polar bears in Panama. We don't have enough chromosomes for genuine civility. We can only feign it in social situations.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:27 | 769685 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Spalding wants me to run down finance/trading in a post.... gee where to start...Oh I know 'buy hi sell low'!! Ggggggggg.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:30 | 769705 Spalding_Smailes
Spalding_Smailes's picture

Focus on the securitization market ?

When is she going to get better ? Whats wrong with it ? Will China start trading CDS's ?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:48 | 769780 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Hmmm, HEY I know! Ask Cramer! Call in! Booooyaaaaaaa!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:57 | 769821 JlM CRAMER
JlM CRAMER's picture

You rang?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:56 | 770035 Jim Cramer
Jim Cramer's picture

WTF? How can this be? You are me? Are you the evil one?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 19:40 | 770181 JlM CRAMER
JlM CRAMER's picture

Oh you've gone and done it now!

Well since we've got Larry and Moe where's Curly?

 

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 20:43 | 770322 cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

can't find Curly.......have to settle for LarryKudlow. LARRY! where are ya?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:25 | 769686 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Okay: You suck at both.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:08 | 769607 TraderMark
TraderMark's picture

Wait... now "socialists" have a better freedom of speech and "socialists" have a better economy for the masses?

 

Damn socialists... we don't want to be like them!  Slow growth economies with stunted freedom. -Rush.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:12 | 769624 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Those "socialist" economies are heavily taxed, but almost totally unregulated.  The regulations are the real barriers to business, while taxes merely restrict consumption by individuals, reallocating that consumption to non-productive government workers and their cronies.

This is not to say that our economy is not socialist.  It is, and has been since 1913.  Any attempts to use the US as an example of "free market capitalism gone wrong" are thus wildly off base to start with, like pointing to Hitler as an example of Democracy run amok.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:53 | 769797 dnarby
dnarby's picture

The USA isn't socialist, it's corporatism masquerading as capitalism.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:06 | 769845 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Corporatism is a subcategory of the "big tent" of socialism, at least, by my nomenclature.

The only substantial difference between the USA of today, and the USSR of 1985 is that the people's money goes to the friends of those in charge who run corporations rather than to friends of those in charge who are party members.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 22:54 | 770613 RECISION
RECISION's picture

And State Corporatism went by the interesting names of:

Fascism & National Socialism(Nazi)

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:16 | 769876 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

IE "Free for those who can afford it, very expensive for those who can't." or 'Socialism for the Wealthy'.

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 00:49 | 770932 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Actually it's cocksure capitalism masquerading as mercuntalism.

Or something like that.

ORI

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2010/12/01/of-leaking-wikis-and-true-lies/

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 10:54 | 771545 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

Corporofasicism

a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts corporation  above the nation and the individual.  and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leadership, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:54 | 769803 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

High taxes are also real barriers to business. Many small businesses will trade cash only and discount the tax from the total. No checks, no bank account either. Things get done and everybody is happy in the end, though both parties are considered criminals to most governments...

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:13 | 769630 midtowng
midtowng's picture

Exactly. Our level of freedom has dropped so far that we are now looking up at other nations we used to dismiss.

I think the problem is how we define "freedom". Increasingly "freedom" is defined as "the freedom of capital to move", not the "freedom to live in peace." I prefer the latter definition.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:38 | 769743 Aductor
Aductor's picture

Yes, damn them. A socialist 6,9% annual growth in GDP. They can take their strong socialist Krona and stuff it... Because they are so socialist!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:53 | 769795 youngandhealthy
youngandhealthy's picture

TM...you must have been asleep the last 20 years....Sweden Socialist? you gotta be kidding?

Stop watch FOX...its not healthy for you.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:09 | 769849 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I don't have cable.  Nor was I talking about Sweden.

Haha, I didn't realize the guy above me had the same initials.  Funny.

But he didn't say anything about Sweden either.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:38 | 769949 PD Quig
PD Quig's picture

There are limits to 'freedom of speech.' Amazon made a business decision. No socialist countries have better, more resilient economies.

Welcome to the grown up world. Boycott Amazon, but if you really want to be on the side of the angels, don't buy shit from China--either of the propaganda or material variety.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 19:15 | 770105 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

Nobody cried "fire" in a theater here.

 

Wikileaks is doing the job that the "free press" should have been doing for the last fifty years.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 20:24 | 770282 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

... and that the NY Times actually did do, in 1971 with the Pentagon Papers.

Folks remember the kool-aid is bad for you.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:08 | 769610 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

There is nothing shady about any means that defends free speech. Let the courts find liability, the technology is here to stay. The powers in the towers will find their punk asses pwned.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:29 | 769702 chet
chet's picture

I'm kind of curious about where you all would draw the line for Wikileaks.

What if they published some nuclear launch codes?

The current locations of our subs off of North Korea?

Names of undercover agents currently in the the field in dangerous countries?

A photo of the President's junk?

Is there any limit to the love of "free speech" here?

I ask because from what I've gathered thus far, this last bunch of leaked info doesn't really reveal anything criminal.  So is "embarrassing the US" a good enough reason to release whatever they get their hands on?  Is there really no need for any security in foreign affairs or military matters?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:54 | 769737 fuu
fuu's picture

I would say that pressuring Germany to drop arrest warrants for 13 CIA guys who kidnapped an innocent German citizen, hustled him off to an undisclosed rendition site(without Red Cross access), and tortured him via beating, drugs, and a starvation diet verges on the criminal. And now we know Condoleeza Rice was behind the strong arm tactics.

 

Also there have been a whopping total of 500 cables leaked on the website out of 251,000. Maybe we can sit back and wait for all of them before we across the board declare nothing more than an embarrassment to the US.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:57 | 769819 chet
chet's picture

Perhaps.  But is there anything really new in there?  Will it lead to anything?

Why not release just these nuggest instead of hundreds of thousands of communications?

I grouse about the government around here all the time, but I acknowledge that it has some legitimate defense and diplomacy functions.  So I'm supposed to celebrate when some piece of lefty eurotrash indiscriminately leaks my country's classified material?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 19:43 | 770187 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Part of the problem is that wikileaks does not necessarily know the implications of every transmission...  as a result, other people may put the transmissions to use through collaboration and create a new take on things.  Needless to say, to be the sole arbiter of every document is a pretty tough row to hoe...  best to release them all in the interest of transparency.

The issue here also is that the burden is not on us to prove we should be able to release the information.  Rather, the burden is on the government and other actors to prove why this information should be privileged.  Any law to the contrary is immoral. 

The hallmark of a government worth a shit is one that can be, at least, remotely honest with its populace.  In the end, this is moreso about the conceptual control of information, not the actual information disseminated...  wikileaks poses a threat to the information establishment because the middle men (traditional media) have been circumvented.  This is very similar to the RIAA/MPAA and their distribution models attempting to combat piracy.  Yes, you can attempt to implement ridiculous and draconian laws, but the moles just keep popping from the holes...

My suggestion is to not give anyone any news worthy dirt...  act in a prudent and reasonable manner and there won't be an issue...  I realize that's asking people in power to make an attempt at empathy and to be genuinely human, but a boy can dream right?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 20:11 | 770241 TomJoad
TomJoad's picture

Amen, Brother. post of the day.

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 00:32 | 770891 Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

It's even better when you read it with Macho Man Randy Savage's voice in your head.

"OH YEAH!"

Wait wasn't Macho Man part of the NWO! I knew it!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 23:12 | 770667 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

the vast majority of the leaked material may have been "confidential" but it was not classified ("secret", etc.).  i'm 62 years old.  i haven't seen a u.s. government in my lifetime i wouldn't like to embarrass (ike least).  they get far more respect and obedience than they deserve, the w. bush and obama administrations particularly (though maybe i'm just getting fed up).

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:53 | 769798 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Okay I'll bite. Just about everything you list would be fine, all that is easy to clean up, and would be prone to disclosure anyway. And seriously, if they publish the launch codes and somehow start WW3 then there is something seriously broken in that whole system. Agreed?

To the current leak, this is all fair game. The problem in a democracy arises when any large group of players enjoys substantial information asymmetries. That just breaks everything. It's why we don't permit too much of that in the court systems. Evidence is evidence, testimony is something else. You suppress evidence, you piss a bunch of people off. Same applies here. I don't really want the Executive branch having total information advantage over everyone else, and if they start fucking around behind their black curtains than yeah, bring out the bright lights. So far some of the stuff we're reading about Iran was pure behind-the-scenes manipulations including of the press and the American people. So the means would appear to have been justified.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:08 | 769854 chet
chet's picture

"The problem in a democracy arises when any large group of players enjoys substantial information asymmetries."

I think my issue is that this is about international matters, not about our "democracy."  Foreign affairs is much closer to a zero-sum game, or even law of the jungle.  We have not obligation to "play nice" and be "transparent" with China, or North Korea, or Iran, or anyone else.  The world isn't a democracy. We WANT information asymmetries.  We want to hold as many cards as we possibly can.

If we want to make our foreign relations 100% transparent, do you think China will follow suit?  Or just chuckle and use the information we provide them to rip our lungs out?

PS, do you think that outing our agents in hostile lands "would be fine"?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:17 | 769880 fuu
fuu's picture

True operatives have not been outed. Names are redacted as well as locations and times if they could lead to an asset's identity.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:25 | 769911 chet
chet's picture

I'm asking how you would feel if they DID out our agents.  I'm trying to figure out the limits to how much you guys love foreigners spilling your country's secrets.  Very high tolerence for it I'm learning.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:36 | 769963 espirit
espirit's picture

Chet -

What most of our guys do there is called espionage. Punishable by law unless covered by diplomatic immunity.

It's still wrong morally.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:42 | 769981 chet
chet's picture

So we should bring our spies home.  Other countries will be so overjoyed that they will then stop spying on us!  Then all the people of the world will ride their unicorns over the big rainbow party, where mermaids will give out handjobs as the gumdrops rain from the sky!

This whole discussion is ridiculous.  At least half the foreign contingent at the UN are spying on the US for their home country.  You guys are childish.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 20:01 | 770210 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Our agents should not be outed, have not been outed, and this is a complete and total diversion.  If you want to talk about outing intelligence agents, you might hit up the bush administration...

As far as I'm concerned, anything in the gray area of what should or should not be disseminated SHOULD be disseminated, especially at the present, while the mainstream media and its business model is uprooted.  Generally, anytime anyone suggests the end justifies the means, they're a fucking lunatic.  But, in this situation, given the negligible apparent impact for the immediate safety of our citizens, erring on the side of transparency is the right decision.

You want their to be informational assymetries, but I want to be a policeman the world can trust and respect.  It's a difficult tightrope, but I think we've largely overextended our boundaries and are in desperate need of a PR campaign.  We'll take a bath for a while...  but hopefully come out cleaner and more responsible.  Maybe it will just make us more weary, gunshy, and devious...  I have no idea...  however, my guess is it will ultimately help draw media control and, thus, power away from the establishment.  Which, at this juncture, is a novel concept.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 23:21 | 770688 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

not only that but the vast majority of our diplomacy and warfare (diplomacy by other means) is not only vastly evil but counterproductive to our own practical long run geostrategic interests.  the whole israel thing.  the warring in islamic countries.  general economic sanctions. the war on drugs in latin america.  fill in your own blanks.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:47 | 770005 PD Quig
PD Quig's picture

Chet, we already know that people did die as a result of the first Wikileaks release, but the fuckheads you're arguing with don't care about those people because they helped the Evil Empire: USA. You're wasting your time doing thought experiments with morons who have either never actually read our Constitution, or who are unthinking, indoctrinated puds 'educated' in the classrooms of the past 30 years...that is to say, uneducated.

Anybody citing freedom of speech in the context of espionage is an unrecoverable ignoramus. Let them eat their Cheetos while watching their porn and then wonder all night long why their dick is orange.

Fucking fools, living in a fool's paradise.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 23:25 | 770703 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

just curious: what in the constitution or the education of pre-1980 (!) clarifies the wikileaks controversy or the comments about it here?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 20:48 | 770337 trav7777
trav7777's picture

this is a classic red herring strawman.

How about if they blew the sun up?  WHERE IS THE LIMIT, PEOPLE?????

Let's reductio ad absurdum together now, it's fun!

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 00:43 | 770917 Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

He shoots...HE SCORES!

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 00:13 | 770835 DrSandman
DrSandman's picture

beg to differ...

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:26 | 769918 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

PS, do you think that outing our agents in hostile lands "would be fine"?

Starting at the end; you didn't use the word "hostile" in your original comment, to which I responded. But to the extent that hostilities are as often as not fabricated and can serve economic masters even that definition might not carry water. As a rule, we shouldn't be doing these things. There might be exceptions. I cannot imagine any exceptions right now, actually. No, Iraqistan isn't one of them.

I think my issue is that this is about international matters, not about our "democracy."

And you can separate those? We are sending troops to Iraq on what kind of intelligence? For which purpose? And if the purpose was to secure the oil fields for the personal use of Exxon/Mobile would that suddenly change things? What if we went into Pakistan next to get at their nukes? Or how about Mexico, for their drug problem (which our drug problem actually)? Or Canada? Okay we totally need to invade Canada, but you get my point. The American people are dragged into these things on faulty intel and that is starting to suck.

You and I tend to agree on a lot of things. We're not so far apart as it seems here either. We probably just differ in how we define boundary conditions. I'm fairly aggressive obviously, erring on the side of more information being better.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:34 | 769957 chet
chet's picture

Yeah, maybe we just draw the boundary differently.

I supported some of the Wikileaks on Iraq because I thought they were more about exposing wrong-doing.  This last batch just isn't doing it for me. 

I'd rather have my diplomats be able to be frank with eachother.  If they think that Leader X is a lying a-hole they should be able to communicate that to their colleagues without us picking it apart.  You know that after this leak, they've already been instructed to censor any written assessments.  How does that not weaken your country vis-a-vis its enemies?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:49 | 770016 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

I can think of one example that is appears extremely important; the cables in hand suggesting that leading nations in the ME are if anything more afraid of Iran than we are, and are openly (if you believe the transcripts) calling for Iran to be bombed before they attain nuclear weapons. I haven't heard that sentiment before now. Isn't that interesting? Wouldn't that have some bearing on what we do with Iran? And if we do something it seems to me we'll be hearing a different rhetoric out of the ME as things go down, due to the comments now in the record. Sucks to be them I guess, but I like knowing what they really think. They should just come out and say it, what's with the sub rosa "we cannot really be seen to support you" nonsense? Are we patsies or something? Screw em and their Jihadist clerics. Make up your damned minds.

Not advocating anything v-v Iran, just pulling one example.

The media and governments keep us in the dark. They say it's for our own good. Is that so? Maybe its for the good of Haliburton (again) and House of Saud in which case they can all fuck off.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 23:29 | 770721 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

or maybe it's in there to be leaked.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:16 | 769875 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Nuclear launch codes can be changed very quickly, as can the location of subs (which is moot, because no-one but the sub crew knows where those subs are anyways).

Undercover agents should be pulled out, as should all troops.

If the TSA saves pictures of ours, I don't see why we can't have one of his.  Not that I particularly want to see it.

There is no limit to the love of freedom.  I'm sad to see that you think there is.

The government is full of hypocrisy, as these cables reveal.  The simple truth is that the government shouldn't be in the business of trying to out-spy the rest of the world, and should instead be focused on reducing its size and scope such that it's citizens can prosper and be free.  There is really no need to go trudging around the world looking for dirt on foreigners.  So long as they do not strike out at us in aggression, then we should leave them alone.  Given the size of our nuclear arsenal, they are certain to do the same.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:23 | 769903 chet
chet's picture

Unilateral surrender on the international front.  Check.  China will be thrilled to see us throwing down our guns and goin home.

Surprised to find so many of you espousing that philosophy.  The naivete is breathtaking.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 19:06 | 770074 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Maybe we just refuse to be afraid.

I seriously think we can handle anything the Chinese want to bring. Or the N Koreans. Or the Canadians, yeah baby! On the business side, IBM can send in their own goons on their own dime, thanks.

I just don't buy the "kill the other guy first" thing. That is just too slippery, too easy. Let them bring it.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 19:31 | 770148 Bob
Bob's picture

Exactly. 

Playing around like bitches simply exposes us as bitches.  Much as our boys love (by conditioning) to stick up for those kind of bitches. 

 

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 19:10 | 770092 Jim Cramer
Jim Cramer's picture

Chet,

I don't see anyone advocating throwing down our guns. I see the advocating of protecting our country if there is a threat. To assume that we need to be the worlds police to protect ourselves is insanity. But to say unilateral surrender, explain where??? By leaving countries that don't belong to "US"A, does not suggest surrender. I say if we bring everyone home, focus on our own problems and get strong then who would "pick" a real fight with us?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 20:50 | 770342 trav7777
trav7777's picture

False dilemma.  Check.

Man, you are a TOUR DE FORCE of logical fallacies

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 00:45 | 770922 Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

Please stop with the razor sharp beat downs. Can't you see you are debating an unarmed opponent?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 23:48 | 770761 thefatasswilly
thefatasswilly's picture

Thusly, the follies of democracy and "freedom" are revealed.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 22:07 | 770478 karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

Why don't you ask Assange? Even he says there are legit secrets to be kept by gvts.

As to being embarrassed , well if your actions invite that then don't do them.

What would you think should be released?

Anything some corrupt bloodsucker stamps secret on?

The U.S. embarrasses itself even without the docs.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 23:55 | 770777 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

names of undercover agents in dangerous countries? Our government already beat wikileaks to that and for nothing more than to shut someone up over our governments lies into its illegal , murderous"war." And you're wondering why individual citizens now feel compelled and encouraged to end run the system?  

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 02:03 | 771051 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Nuclear launch codes won't do much good WITHOUT physical access to the launch facility, dontcha know.

How many secret agents have only one name?

I can't think of anyone that would want to see a pic of the President's junk.  (I could go for some shots of Michelle, though!)

Submarines have these nifty devices at the rear end, called Propellers.

The real limit to free speech has always been disallowing false speech, which is why no one is allowed to scream "Fire!" in a crowded theater, if no fire is present!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:46 | 769775 ThreeTrees
ThreeTrees's picture

Agreed.  I've been a denizen of the internet since my family got their first 133MHz Pentium II.  I grew up with the web and I'll be damned if anybody is going to castrate it and turn it into another propaganda pipeline.  Fuck you, Mr. Statesman, for trying to tell me how I'm supposed to think and what I'm supposed to know.

I just get so goddamn sick of all these bullshit political diktats.  I just want to live my own goddamn, non-aggressive lifestyle WITHOUT having to enfranchise a bunch of sociopaths who think they know what's best for EVERYBODY.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:09 | 769612 aint no fortuna...
aint no fortunate son's picture

Don't delay - publish that fucking bank news NOW!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:16 | 769643 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

I agree dump it now! Screw January, take these bank clowns down now if indeed they actualy have the damning evidence!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:17 | 769653 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

WIKI goes down and  BAC goes up 3.2%

 

I bet they threw in a early christmass party at BAC headoffices, and tomorrow when they sober down and notice it's back up, it will give them ONE HELL OF A HANGOVER!!

 

 

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:21 | 769673 SwingForce
SwingForce's picture

Aren't those skype kids from Sweden? What did they do before skype? STILL do? Doesn't it seem like just yesterday that BAC was scraping along fresh 52-week lows?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 20:51 | 770344 trav7777
trav7777's picture

has the NSA succeeded in hacking skype yet or does anyone know if the ebay takeover has led to backdoors in the AES?

word is that the intelco hates skype

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:21 | 769668 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

No shit.  I am itching for that info to come about.  The Fed release was pretty nice though.  I am a bit depressed about having a view at a fraction of the money being handed away to the friends of the Fed, as it reiterates the fact that our congress is irrelevant, voting matters very little, and so many people in this country are dilluted in their understanding of the tyranny they live under. 

Ohh an iPussy.  Gotta get me one of those.  Do you think it comes in silver?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:09 | 769613 Cone of Uncertainty
Cone of Uncertainty's picture

Keep it coming WikiLeaks.

 

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:11 | 769619 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

When free speech is outlawed, only outlaws will have free speech.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:15 | 769637 Jean Valjean
Jean Valjean's picture

Kinda already there, aren't we?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:35 | 769727 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

Yeah. I just felt like it needed to be said.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 19:34 | 770158 Bob
Bob's picture

Funny!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 21:45 | 770441 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Needed to be said but it's illegal. So don't do it!!!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:11 | 769620 dabullify
dabullify's picture

As to the bank info, I'm with Barry Ritholz  on this one.

Just what disgusting, illegal, fraudulent, shit do you expect to see that we haven't already seen from these fucking bankers?

Apparently as long as the market goes up, and dancing with the stars goes on, no one gives a shit...

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:12 | 769625 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

SWEET!!

 

I've never asked a autograph from somebody, and never wanted to, simply because I don't care about that shit.

 

BUT I WANT TO HAVE THAT GUY'S AUTOGRAPH!!

THIS GUY IS A ICON WHO WILL GO INTO THE HISTORY BOOKS!!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:50 | 770018 A_MacLaren
A_MacLaren's picture

Maybe the history books as they are originally written, until the Winston Smiths of the future get done correcting history.  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Nineteen_Eighty-Four_manus...

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:12 | 769626 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Wikileaks +1, DHS 0 total PWNAGE

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 23:05 | 770648 RECISION
RECISION's picture

"pwnage"

Do you think that maybe we are old enough to take a pass on the teenage(juvenile) slang.

:-(

 

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 00:20 | 770857 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

right right right droogy. appy polly logies to thee and thine, us will make bestwise with the goloss and drop the nadsat when we pony the real horrowshow height of fashion you you you are glazzying our govreeting. Or you can just kiss my sharries.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:15 | 769639 Cleanclog
Cleanclog's picture

Wikileaks is a terrorist and a rapist.  Anyone who doesn't buy American stocks is a traitor.  If you aren't a Christian you don't have faith.  Beware and be very afraid!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:16 | 769649 Battleaxe
Battleaxe's picture

Thank you minister of propaganda.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:17 | 769652 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Beat the shit out of yourself Tyler Durden parking garage style immediately.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:21 | 769667 downrodeo
downrodeo's picture

Please leave rape out of this. Please don't associate the pain of victims of actual rape with whatever the fuck you're trying to say in your broken English. Please, just fuck off.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 20:14 | 770248 bb5
bb5's picture

+1

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:23 | 769679 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

you forgot to include the <sarcasm on/off> function, right?

right?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:31 | 769708 Cleanclog
Cleanclog's picture

Yes, I did forget.  Apologies.  Driven by the interpol thing, Leiberman, and the irony - but failed to </>.  Sorry!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 20:46 | 770332 cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

ooooooops..... just a "minor detail"

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 02:09 | 771062 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

It's always interesting to see who's sarcasm detector is broken though! :>D

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:15 | 769641 Battleaxe
Battleaxe's picture

Is ZH hosted in Sweden yet?

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:16 | 769646 Stuart
Stuart's picture

Hope he hurries up plans to release the banking files.   It very clearly has some of these Big Brother types worried which automatically that means the public needs to know. 

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:43 | 769991 espirit
espirit's picture

 

 

Just be careful what you wish for...

More than one persons Xmas may be ruined by the release of the bank files, and maybe not even those implicated in the original crimes.

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 00:24 | 770869 ViewfromUnderth...
ViewfromUndertheBridge's picture

I'm sweatin' it and you're the only one who gets it.

I used my cc for hookers. Damn!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:16 | 769648 Rustycakes
Rustycakes's picture

Yes, censorship always works.  It has worked so well in the past. 

It just creates more demand for whatever is being censored. 

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:21 | 769665 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

In that case, you porn channels have now been censored. Let's see how effective that is in increasing the nations GDP.

Wait a minute, I might be on to something here. :>)

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:46 | 769773 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

YOU JUST CROSSED THAT THIN LINE CD!!

 

NOBODY CENSORS PORN!

 

IT'S THE ONLY REAL AND TRUTHFULL THING STILL REMAINING!!

 

 

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:57 | 769820 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

/sarc

That's for BOTH of you.

I gotta do everything around here.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 18:57 | 770043 A_MacLaren
A_MacLaren's picture

LMAO

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 21:27 | 770416 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

Indeed, neither the world wide web or VCRs would ever have caught on without porn and the female deprived geeks who developed the technology.

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 23:10 | 770664 RECISION
RECISION's picture

...and little did they know, that being female deprived was probable the best and most productive thing that ever happened to them...

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 00:22 | 770866 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

... not to mention graphic novels!

Thu, 12/02/2010 - 02:12 | 771068 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Judging by Rustycakes' avatar, you're taking your life into your own hands there, pardner! :>D

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:21 | 769669 jus_lite_reading
jus_lite_reading's picture

Yes indeed and thus the reason those who are afraid of the shit storm will be most devastated by the shit storm...

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:22 | 769674 Cleanclog
Cleanclog's picture

Ditto!

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:17 | 769654 swissinv
swissinv's picture

looks like this is an older release of the website - latest cables are missing

Wed, 12/01/2010 - 17:18 | 769657 Hephasteus
Hephasteus's picture

Verisign get's really pissed off if you block the shit out of them. They will try to get to you through google and then through amazon and then through akagami (yahpoo).

Verisign. Fuck you.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!