This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
Zero Hedge Video Analysis Reveals Paintball Guns, Secret Turkish Weapon
Tellingly, a number of commentators on the recent "Gaza Flotilla" kerfuffle, including some right here on Zero Hedge, appear to have fallen prey to the seductive wiles of the Palestinian (and now Turkish) propaganda ministry, painting the Israeli Defense Forces as a "go in guns blazing" murder squad victimizing a few, poor, international protesters on an innocent blockade runner on a diplomatic mission that absolutely, positively did not intercept those transmissions. True, it seemed quite unlikely that the IDF would board a blockade runner ("Darth Vader. Only you could be so bold.") with just paintball guns, but exclusive Zero Hedge analysis can now reveal that not only did IDF forces board the Mavi Marmara with sidearms holstered and only paint ball guns as their primary weapons, but, in what must be the most significant Israeli intelligence failure in decades, they were unwittingly lured into facing a historic and potent enemy they could not hope to vanquish with colored ink.
We refer, of course, to Turkish cavalry.
While surely unconventional to deploy at sea, Turkish cavalry has commanded fear and respect since the Battle of Bapheus in 1302, and, in more contemporary times, in the Greco-Turkish war between 1919 and 1922, most notably in the Battle of Dumlup?nar, finally vanquishing the Greek presence in Anatolia.
Indeed, had we not seen the video with our own eyes, it would be difficult to credit the addition of Marine Cavalry units to the asymmetric order of battle facing the IDF, but the video evidence is incontrovertible. Our frame by frame analysis of IDF provided video clearly shows the presence of feared Turkish Marine Cavalry on board the Mavi Marmara.
Frame-by-Frame Slow Motion Analysis
IDF Member with Paintball Gun
Dreaded Turkish Cavalry
»
- 23443 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
The only thing more absurd would be, I dunno, Marine Turkish Cavalry.
So they killed 19 people with paintball guns?
okay, never mind my previous posts, you are a fucking idiot.
it doesn't matter if they killed 19 people and injured 50 others with guns, toys or q-tips. It's the "killed" in the sentence that's important.
Marla, you are a disgrace to this otherwise excellent site.
The paintball guns (with sidearms holstered) speak to the question of intent....the intent of the IDF and the purpose of the boarding.
Feel free to terminate your patronage any time.
Plus infinity.
Marla, I'm not here to suck your non-existant d**k, but this vitriol is telling, and I really think you are doing the ZH community a service by fleshing it out.
Go.
Paintall guns use a large plastic Hopper that you dump the balls in and they feed into the gun. The hopper is shaped like a fat sausage.
Those aren't "paintball guns" in the strictest sense. They don't shoot balls of paint. They shoot balls of pepper spray. You could shoot balls of paint in them. But I'd be willing to bet they had pepper spray loads in.
Looks much more like a TAR 21 which shoots 5.56mm hot lead. The IDF isn't stupid enough to board a ship with paint balls or pepper spray. That sounds much more like a US military move.
It is the paintball 'hopper'. Usually holds ~50 paintballs. What is really awesome about the video is the IDF guy wacking the guy in front of him right in the kidney.
yes that is a paintball hopper, this particular one will hold 200+ paintballs, teargas balls, or even hard rubber projectiles. You can adjust these paintball guns to fire at a velocity over 300-400 feet per second at a rate up to 30 balls per second (yes 30 balls per second).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBRRWtUGTwk&feature=related
Clearly I have been out of the paintball world too long...200 paintballs....wowza
Wholly Crap!
I seriously hope Uncle Noam wasn't trying to sneak in on one of those boats... those paintballs might actually kill a man of his age.
wtf would you use paintball guns? I mean seriously. Not that condone killing folks in "international water" wtf boards a potentially hostile ship with paintball guns. You took the time to load up the choppers. You are dropping down 1 at a time from the helicopters into a melee and you bring paintball guns and side arms?
Not to be totally paranoid but this whole thing looks staged. Like some sort of training exercise being released as a night op raid. I have a hard time believing that the IDF would be this foolish. I have an easier time beliving they went in with real hardware and no video of the actual event was released. They took the boat. How hard would it be to round up the recording equipment?
They blocked what they could, cellphones quit working. The sattilite link they had was apparently unimpeded.
Damning onboard video, go watch it a few times.
Law enforcement agencies toyed around with paintballs filled with capsicum filling years and years ago when I played a bit of paintball.
I'm not sure why exactly, probably because a paintball gun could carry a few hundred rounds of the stuff vs. a tazer that is good for one shot and pepper spray can blow back in the users face.
I'm not sure why rubber bullets wouldn't be used but if you really wanted to avoid a PR incident you don't want anyone with bruises to parade on camera. Rubber bullets, bean bags and wooden dowels fired from real guns aren't always non-leathal.
If the IDF really did drop in from choppers with paintball guns that tells me they knew/expected this whole thing to be a PR stunt.
hahaha. clearly the israeli's miscalculated by placing the helicopter dropping guys down into a manually armed mob of angry humanitarians, but, staged?
Gotta ask yourself, what was the camel's motivation in all of this?
a savage group of humanitarians. trying to bring aid to a prison camp,, attacked the Israeli military using chairs, sticks , and in one case a iron pan ,,
to save their life and protect the most people possible ,
the paint balls were followed by machine gun fire , killing 20 of the raging humanitarians. in some cases these savage humanitarians at one point threw a spit ball
Oh, I see, we are going to just IGNORE the Turkish Cavalry?
http://tinyurl.com/238o8sf
6 of the dead are Turkish citizens and Turkey plans to send its own navy over to escort more ships into Gaza. But 10 of the victims are from the Western countries that support Israel. This is unacceptable. One of the Freedom Flotilla members is a victim of a previous Israeli crime, the attack on the USS Liberty. ?
ΩΩEvery detail of this business disgusts me totally.
L...O....L
I would never do something as ridiculous as ignore the Turkish cavalry. Particularly the marine ones. I wonder if the airborne Turkish Cavalry will repel down ropes from helicopters like the other special forces of the world. I would soooo not want to be caught underneath a pissed off, bad ass, rapidly descending Turkish Cavalry Camel Commando.
Technically, that would be Airmobile Marine Turkish Cavalry or AMTCs (pronounced AM TACKS). Normally emplyed by Royal Jordanian Forces but I understand the Turks requested a few RJF AMTC officers to use as advisors. I believe they landed at Thon San Nuht yesterday.
You mean after the raging humanitarians were beating israeli's with iron rods of PEACE, stabbing one officer and throwing another down a two or three flight stairwell.
For trying to be nice to a group that wants to genocide them, I think Israel does reasonably well.
Not to mention the plastic walmart chairs. I saw this one girl Loicia beat this guy gerome half to death with one of those things for cheating on her.
And did you see that knife. It's a special purpose knife for cutting ROPE. They were obviously going to launch themselves into the air and cut the helicopters ropes off letting the soldiers plummet to their death. Brutal vicious attack that was obviously planned to the last detail.
as a 11 year old full of curiousity i watched from my upstairs window as stout bodied, thick ankled german women came to get their men out of the bar late at nite. One giant gal brought a rolling pin (for rolling dough) had her man by the arm and beat the crap out of him on the way home.
Mayhap its why i dont drink or date large women. have a happy .
heph liking your humor.
......................... swinging between balls, on fire†
Since Gaza is distinct from Israel, a blockade of Gaza is against international norms. Israel is the aggressor without doubt. If they had been worried about arms being smuggled along with relief being provided they could have had a joint screening of all supplies to Gaza from these boats. What in effect they are doing is cutting of essential supplies and starving the Gazans into submission.
I hope i am right with my comments. Please let me know.
that's just liberal B.S. Israel has a right to defend it'self, just like we did during the cuban missle crisis.
Isreal is clearly NOT the aggressor, it boarded 3 ships without incident and no one familair with what israel has allowed in has stated they are cutting off 'essential supplies and starving gaza' - that's straight from the hamas goebbels PR dept.
In addition, the Egyptian side has a lot of smuggiling going on. Hamas just wants the material to increase it's war making ability.
Thats just right-wing delusional warhawk drivel. Everybody and their mother knew these activist civilians were just there to provide aid to Gazans, most of whom are under 15. Israel is doing to the Gazans what the Nazis did to the jews. And they need to be punished, the UN should sanction their ass at least.
The Gaza strip was given up by Israel as part of the land for peace deal. Look how well their generosity was rewarded. Gaza has been taken over by Hamas, a group recognized by the United States as a terrorist organization. It has no legitimacy as a state.
If most Gazans are under 15, all the more reason to crush them for not controlling their birth rate.
The next time you have an election where someone like GW Bush or BH Obama is elected, perhaps the Palestinians will see fit to come in and negate the results by installing a regime that they would prefer.
You fucking idiot.
I am Chumbawamba.
Heil, Chumba
Hamas, a group recognized by the United States as a terrorist organization
Big laugh right there buddy. You had me going for a minute.
What makes you think the USA has any legitimacy when it comes to identifying "who is the terrorist"?
Israel is a terrorist state. It uses terror as state policy. The same can be said for the US. Just ask anyone in Af/Pak
Yep, one of the biggest mistakes Israel has ever made.
@ Reductio ad Absurdum
Yep, one of the biggest mistakes Israel has ever made.
It happened in international waters. The group had 35 European MP's. I guess they are all stupid too! At this rate any one country can attack every other country on the pretext it had to defend itself against an attack.
It's perpetual war. And if you ask me it's better to disband the UN. The majority does not count. The one's with the veto do. There is no parity amonst nations. The mighty prevail with their weapons.
Whoa,whoa, whoa. Nathan, think about what you just said. "35 Euro MPs. I guess thay are all stupid too." I must assume you were being either rhetorical or sarcastic. Try this: replace 35 Euro MPs with 35 US Senators and think again. See, easy.
"The mighty prevail with their weapons."
Read your history. That is the only might that has ever prevailed. All else flows from that.
"At this rate any one country can attack every other country on the pretext it had to defend itself against an attack"
we're way ahead of that
Israel has the right to defend itself from what? What did they find on the ships that threaten their security?
Israel has the right to defend itself against things like Katusha rockets, C4 explosives, Kalashnikov rifles and all the other bullshit these supposedly peace-loving Hamas fucks fill your ears with. What they find on any one vessel or in any one hidden tunnel or truck that Israel allows to traverse the border is immaterial. When these Hamas animals stop blowing up defenseless donkeys (where was the uproar from the communist PETA?) stop lobbing rockets into residential neighborhoods we;ll see israel stop its attacks on the terrorists.
If it is really the 'murderous' Israelis someone will need to explain why these murderers don't routinely attack Jordan? That place is a hell hole loaded with Muslims.....prime target for Israel but they don't waste the bullets there?? Odd.
If I were in the largest open-air prison in the world, with a systematically crippled infrastructure, drinking dirty water if it's even available, sick family members dying because their travel request to a hospital outside of the strip hasn't been approved yet (if ever), constant harrasment at checkpoints, etc. I think I would want to get some attention and cause some trouble instead of just laying down and taking it.
Lets see what you would do if invaded, slaughtered, and told to fuck off and die in every sense of those words.
"We have a right to exist!" = "We have a right to commit genocide because it happened to us first!"
Must be that deadly killer 5 foot camel I read about on the internet, bred specifically for protecting the aid ships and being housed in tight quarters. Thanks for the chuckle but this is without a doubt a horribly divisive and polarizing topic and makes mine and others blood clearly boil on all sides.
Peace.
Latest declassified info on the Airmobile Marine Turkish Main Battle Camel (AMTMBC)(pronounced AM TAM BACK) asserts that it can spit farther than any known paint gun can shoot and its' bite can leave marks for days.
frigging classic
Marla, thanks for trying to defuse a very tense situation. I think that many backers of the elite-controlled status-quo will continue to use this entire holy-land brouhaha as a wedge to distract people from far more important issues, just as they are using GOM. If we allow jew-haters and muslim supremicists to back Israel further into a corner, then we will end up with another war in the middle east.
We need to remain focused on far more important issues, like auditing the Fed and throwing the bums out.
Yes to auditing the Fed and throwing the bums out.
But you got this exactly backwards -
jew-haters and muslim supremicists
I see muslim-haters and jew-supremicists coming out of the woodwork, all over the threads on this event.
Examples:
o "The "palestinians" are a people cursed by their own stupidity, hatred and violent hearts."
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/global-community-condemns-israeli-actio...
o "The muslim horde holds to a cult of mysogeny, hell on earth, slavery, death to infidels, cruel punishments, disregard for the sanctity of life, and wholesale hatred of themselves and everyone else. They suck out loud. The sooner this planet is rid of them the better."
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/global-community-condemns-israeli-actio...
o "Who cares about 19 dead members of children murdering cult. I care about the 1368 virgins that have to spend eternity with these mysoginist wife beaters."
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/zero-hedge-video-analysis-reveals-paint...
You fuck with our Federal Reserve System we give you QE I, you persist in fucking with our Federal Reserve System we give you QE II.
You ‘Americans’ won the revolution, but WE, the British Empire, control your (our) money via the First Bank of the United States, then the Second Bank of the United States and finally via the current Federal Reserve System.
Now WE hereby send you a stern message via one of our shining Knights. BP (British Petroleum) to stop fucking with our Federal Reserve System else WE really get pissed at you and give you BPII.
“while the British view that the American colonies were just colonies to be used and exploited in whatever way best suited the Great Britain, insured that war was inevitable.”
I thought this was a joke until I looked it up online. This really was an ambush with calvalry onboard. Google israel video.
6 of the dead are Turkish citizens and Turkey plans to send its own navy over to escort more ships into Gaza. But 10 of the victims are from the Western countries that support Israel. This is unacceptable. One of the Freedom Flotilla members is a victim of a previous Israeli crime, the attack on the USS Liberty. ΩΩEvery detail of this business disgusts me totally.
culture of life news
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SbjAanvUqs
Anyone that hasnt viewed the Occupation 101 documentary available via youtube is a nitwit.
cnbc europe saying 9 dead- from paintballs and pistols.
Great to see ZH picking up the issues the MSM wouldn't touch with a 50ft barge pole.
To think those turks were bazen enough to go up against the might of the IDF. Instead of Cavalry they needed some Jedi Knights.
Paintball my ass!
This is the IMI Tavor Tar 21 assault rifle used by the Israely seal force:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XWrZEi64C7w/R09uLN4DYTI/AAAAAAAAARg/MGbKjzsu_5A/s1600-R/tavor_01.jpg
http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://dmp.veldt.org/TAR21.JPG&imgrefurl=http://dmp.veldt.org/arifle.html&usg=__Ayuh_McOJZ4gy2l2AzYr4ohyfQY=&h=283&w=510&sz=46&hl=nl&start=5&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=4vaizJukBtPcTM:&tbnh=73&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3DIMI%2BTavor%2BTar%2B21%2Bnight%2Bscope%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26tbs%3Disch:1
This is the night scope that goes with it. As you can see, you can flip it into stand position and has a round design:
http://w11.itrademarket.com/pdimage/12/1735712_yukon-nvmt-3x42-rifle-scope-kit-26041.jpg
Here is a nice assembly of the Tavor (scroll to bottom):
http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://lh4.ggpht.com/DoubleTapper/SERk3gdRY_I/AAAAAAAAA_I/_7yal7YUFaE/IMG_0413.jpg&imgrefurl=http://doubletapper.blogspot.com/2008_06_01_archive.html&usg=__ftZz44eVtdbsuwwICoCjocblrvQ=&h=768&w=1024&sz=163&hl=nl&start=26&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=bpIANUxErFWPtM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3DIMI%2BTavor%2BTar%2B21%2Bnight%2Bscope%26start%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1
Here are some other "paintball guns":
http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/8823/77585976nu7.png
http://mili.co.kr/infantry/servedweapon/be/2000/f2000_3.jpg
Sc
Sorry, that's a paintball gun in the video. You can easily distinguish the weapons you attempt to force into the round hole of your argument. Wish however you like. It's a paintball gun. You can even see two non-lethal head shots from it in the video. Feel free to pull yourself back into this reality/inertial frame of reference at your convenience. (Or not, whatever).
Do I detect a beckoning Hollywood career or better still maybe the secret service.
C.I.A. (Cunt In Action)
Not the most cogent argument I've heard this morning.
Neither is yours. Maybe you should just go back to FR?
I am Chumbawamba.
Any inclination I had to do so is now totally gone.
Marla... do you really think you put seals in a hostile environment without proper intelligence WITH A PAINTBALL GUN?!
Did you ever play paintball? It hurts, but it won't stop anybody.
A paintball gun has never been succesfully used as a riot control weapon.
Yes. Yes. False. (Israel has used them for years).
Ask a friend to fire a will his marker at close range into your head (back, no need to blow open your eye, eyebrows or lips). Then come back here and tell us how you feel.
Better yet put the paint balls in the freezer overnight, then take the hit at ten feet. Non-lethal becomes lethal. Like being hit with a small cannon ball.
To follow your logic:
1. Go to Thailand and fuck everything that looks like a woman
2. How many woman do you think you actually fucked out of 50?
I think you would be in for a surprise... it's not always what it looks like you know :)
Your misadventures in sexual tourism are hardly relevant to the fact that the displayed, visible, paintball guns are consistent with the narrative. Also, notice there was advanced warning given of the boarding of the boat. The fact that all of the passengers were wearing lifejackets issued immediately following said warning. I'm not contending that the israeli's have a perfectly executed plan, nor that their plan was a great one, but they did go in expecting non-violent resistance, hence the paintball guns, with the real guns as a precaution, which they ended up using. If you are, say, a SEAL for the US, and someone starts beating you and your cohorts with whatever weapons they do, is it not your reaction to use the real guns too?
If they had followed intl law like they demand everyone else do we wouldn't be debating if they were justified in murdering people.
I wonder where Israel got their nukes? Wonder if the formerly free people of the US have the right to know what happened to items purchased with their tax dollars. And then Israel tried to sell some of them to South Africa. Israel is a rogue state run by criminals.
Great posts WW.
Sure it can be a paintball gun...sure it can be a gun with a fake paintball holder on top.
From what I can read on different newspapers at least 9 people are dead.
Unless this is not truth, I don't care it's a gun, a paintball gun a knife or an ugly Panda.
The point is, was this necessary?
the video clearly shows a smiling shadow of a 6'3' copy cat Osama bin Laden..
video is omniscient and fullproof
and here is a real paintball gun which looks much more like the thing in the video
http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u347/s-castro89/Motivator%20by%20me/O...
The other thing that makes me believe the paintball gun argument is that the user does not appear to be aiming down what you claim is a sight. Not that anyone would need to at short range. Also, if you ever watch folks trained with real firearms handle rifles the stock is always wedged tightly into the shoulder so the weapon and the user move as one. The person in the video raises it like a toy that it probably is. Not that we can really see that well but the movement does not look like person firing a real rifle.
this whole incident has to be reviewed in light of past history
http://tinyurl.com/23sqn7v
After this, I'm gunna laugh all the way to WW111.
You won't have far to laugh.
Sounds like Dumpster tuned in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SbjAanvUqs
Anyone that hasnt viewed the Occupation 101 documentary available via youtube is a nitwit.
If these were ten Jews killed on their way to help 1.5 million Jews locked in an embargo living in abject misery, would you have used on 'the recent "Gaza Flotilla" kerfuffle' a few hours after it occured? I think the point is a little more respect for the victims. Quite enought time for being a smartass in the weeks to come.
Hmmm. Are they deploying Jewish Cavalry?
I would say that this whole "discussion" rates about -5 on a scale of 0 to 10. Pretty disappointing.
Thank you Marla. Laughter is by far the better weapon and hopefully it stays that way.
How does one inject humor into the clubbing of a Chicago inner city honor student by a local mob with a 4x8 or 4x10 or 3.5x7.5? You have to. The exportation of everything that is wrong in Chicago to DC has become a Final Nail in the USA coffin.
Yeah. About 20 people died. If you can't stomach that then I advise you to start drinking heavily. 20 nations are about to go down. The carnage is just beginning.
I would appreciate a reply from Marla (since You wrote the post) when anyone asks how paintball guns kill at least 9 people. I think it is too easy to answer just when you like. Don't turn your back to your own post please.
Hubrism has an exit strategy.
I'm not sure how the assertion that the IDF deployed with holstered sidearms and paintball guns is inconsistent with later deaths by sidearms. I might point out that no police force in the United States would ever have held off so long on the use of deadly force while 2-5 people beat a prone officer with sticks or pipes or iron bars or whatever. A raised hand against an officer with a club is more than enough to use deadly force in the United States- and this occurs as a matter of course all over the United States without much notice. But perhaps you need the false dichotomy of "paintball guns or assault weapons and nothing in between" to preserve your narrative?
So death by Paintball guns or handguns? The horse is funny, You not condemning these deaths is sad.
But anyone is allowed a point of view, right?
Again, I'm not sure what's unclear, unless you are being intentionally obtuse. (I am beginning to suspect this).
An attempt to manage the situation with less than deadly force fails. The situation escalates to deadly force. This is a mystery... how?
I can't condemn "the deaths" because I have no idea how they occurred. Were the now-dead armed? Attacking an IDF soldier? Who knows. I don't. Neither do you.
What seems clear is, despite cries of "bullshit" from people who obviously haven't even looked at the video, that paintball guns were deployed. (The video evidence here is pretty clear, actually and shows at least two people near the paintball gun wielding IDF member being hit, covering up, recovering, and shying away from the IDF member).
I take no position on the boarding- but then none is required on these points.
What I will say is that, at least using standards for the use of deadly force in the United States, several of the individuals in the video clearly exceeded that boundary. If they were killed while committing the aggravated assaults depicted on the video, no I would not condemn those deaths. It takes a special sort of willful blindness to argue otherwise, I think, unless you want to challenge the use of deadly force... well... ever. If deadly force is not legitimate when used in the face of these sorts of acts of aggravated battery or assault with a deadly weapon, when is it legitimate? There is no police force in the United States that would not be immediately exonerated for a "good shoot" after engaging the pipe/bat/club wielding assailants seen in this video clip. As to what else might have happened, I have no idea.
And, again, neither do you.
its pointless bothering to be rational with these folks. I learned this a long time ago.
Instead just insult them, as its alot more fun :-)
So now unless I comply to your point of view I am obtuse? I am so glad I don't. This is a red-neck argumentation. Not yours at all (or at least this is what I would like to keep thinking).
But back to the point I believe that there were better ways to handle the operation. I am not missing the point. I believe you are: defending the result of the operation on the base that paintball guns were used is useless if 9 or more people are dead; aggravated assaults or not the operation resulted in a disaster.
No, your obtuse if it isn't clear that being armed with paintball guns and sidearms is consistent with gunshot wounds.
If you want to argue with me, argue with me, not some fantasy Marla whose positions you invent as-needed. I never "defended the result of the operation." I pointed out that, despite the hype, it is pretty clear the IDF started off using paintball guns. "That's bullshit!" (Except it isn't). Actually, to be more accurate, they started off holding a bunch of rope and no weapons.
You are now backpedaling from your rather vapid argument that seemed to consist of "Oh yeah? So how are there 9 dead if they only used paintball guns?" That I never claimed this makes no difference to you, or those that adopt this style of argument. (They are plentiful it seems). Having failed to get traction on that, you now turn to arguing (poorly) with my mysterious twin who has all sorts of opinions about the "result of the operation." I will leave you two to it. (Oh, while you're at it, tell her she still owes me for the vodka- I might as well get something out of my doppelganger if I have to answer to her positions).
You still haven't explained how they had a legitimate right to board the ship in the first place.
Thanks for silencing me in chat. Some might consider that a tacit admission of defeat, or in the very least an inferior intellect. But then, that's been the case all along, hasn't it?
I am Chumbawamba.
Israel has been boarding ships that attempt to breach her border for some time now. These are not the first "aid" ships bound for Gaza that have been intercepted and brought into port under Israeli control. Most nations board ships that are attempting to breach their border. Bording the ships is not what is at question here. How this got out of hand so quickly is the question. The answer may turn on the claim that several "innocents" got ahold of the Israeli's pistols. Logic would suggest that the potential for live fire would escalate rather dramatically at this point if this claim is true.
Most nations board ships that are attempting to breach their border.
Please elaborate. I think you have your tenses mixed up.
no kidding
thanks for repeating what you read on DEBKA
Marla - We are not in the United States. This is not some cop in Chicago walking his beat. We are on the high seas, in international waters, on a Turkish flagged passenger vessel.
The problem with you israeli types is that you think there is only one law that really matters and that law is whatever you want or need it to be at the moment.
This additude causes a reaction amongst the global populace that grows from being an annoying problem to become an existential problem for humanity. The world will not suffer the injustice indefintely. I'm not surprised if you believe differently. That's hubris. That always comes before the fall.
Your callous additude towards the dead and wounded, is that some sort of egoistic defense mechanism?
Good thing too. There would be several times more dead and wounded if the Chicago Police had been involved. This was my point.
I'm not Israeli.
Which law, pray tell, applies here exactly? Is it your position that deadly force in the defense of the life of a third party or in self defense is not authorized in international waters? On Turkish flagged vessels? Which law is that again?
My sympathies are distinctly dulled by the appearance that the dead and wounded probably assaulted armed soldiers with cudgels.
"Which law is that again?"
Do not mistake your (perhaps wilful) ignorance of the law with the inexistence of the same.
For your benefit, here's a legal explanation by former Ambassador Craig Murray:
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/05/the_legal_posit.html
And here's also a listing of the relevant articles of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qypNDvEz_yI&feature=player_embedded
I look forward to your discourse on the nature of international law, the court in which this law will be enforced, and the dates of Turkey's and Israel's ratification of the The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. (Hint: It's not enough to parrot this stuff if you have no idea what you are talking about- and if you want to challenge my "ignorance" of the law, you better bring your law degree with you).
It is now clear your ignorance is truly deliberate lest your defense of Israeli crimes would collapse in infamy.
On the nature of International Law, I have this to add: the "Holocaust Exception" which has covered up Israeli crimes and extortion since at least 1967, and which you seem to imply in your Israeli advocacy, has nothing to do with International Law but rather with Jewish power in the US and other Western countries and you know it. If Israel and Turkey have not signed the Law of the Sea Convention is irrelevant since the Convention is now considered the codification of customary international law, and it would serve as the basis for any case brought by any state, including non-signatories, before the International Court of Justice.
I'm not really sure which Israeli "crimes" am I supposed to have defended. Or actions, for that matter, even if we pull the loaded term. Not sure how I am an Israel "advocate," either. Your invocation of the ICJ is beyond comic (as you would know if you knew anything about the interaction between the "law of the sea"- which isn't- and the ICJ- which isn't fully "I" nor strictly a "C," what is required to bring an ICJ action and how all of these points differ if a foreign state's military is involved), as is your "understanding" of naval blockades in general. In fact, the only thing crystal clear I've discovered in your writing is the underlying meaning of your username. That, dear reader, fills in a lot of detail we would otherwise only be able to guess at. Now at least we know what we are dealing with on that level.
Sorry Marla, but the bogus slur of Anti-Semitism is no fig-leaf for your own ethnic bias.
Neither does it cover your ignorance of the fact that it is at the UN member states discretion to submit cases before the ICJ if they choose to.
Nice, clear posts Shylockracy. Marla's position is that the laws of the goy are of no concern of hers or the evil entity's.
We are living in a shylockracy. Dispute that Marla.
And Cold Call, get ass out from under Marla's desk.
Are you kidding? Marla is gorgeous! I would be honoured to have a place under her desk :-)
You are just jealous!
Not at all. Have at it Gimp.
Hey, you're not 12 years old are you?
you are funny, i give you that. This is a guy with a handle "shylockcracy" complaining about being called an antisemite.
That's classic.
Look at this. This is Ray Barboni
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RHBOfM9CFQ
In an American Mafia movie, the shylock lends money. In this case, Ray Barboni. Now I ask you, does Ray portray a Jewish character? Or Italian?
The money lender could be a Mormon. The point is, the shylock is the crooked guy that supplies the money.
ya thats about as useful a shill as Bonnie providing the alibi for Clyde. Please excuse me while i laugh.
Hilarious that with a name like shylockracy you are offended that someone would consider you a racist cur. You, sir, are a moron.
Bogus slur of anti-Semitism?
Your self-chosen nom de plume is Shylockracy.
What is the innocent explanation of that?
Muh man,
The first couple of sentances of your second paragraph tells me all I need to know about your outlook. You're a semi-pro Jooooooooooo! hater, who probably doesn't realize, or won't acknowledge, that virtually all blockade actions take place outside of the restricted area being blockaded...
Maybe you can elucidate how it is that the other 3 vessels in the flotilla had no similar incidents occur and complied with the direction of the Israeli Navy?
Now wait a minute RocketBob. Are you making up the rules again?
I knew you were a lawyer. Your prose gives you away. Litigation with a securities focus, or just securities?
shylockcracy? nice handle which is most transparent in its meaning. Of course no-one would ever accuse you of bias :-)
hate jews much?
Craig Murray? Thats the ex Uzbek amabassador guy who got sacked because he got honey trapped by a whore from Tashkent.
Craig Murray is a fucking joke. Ya keep those references coming :-)
There would be several times more dead and wounded if the Chicago Police had been involved.
Total BS. Have you ever been to Chicago?
I'm not Israeli.
Are you sure? Check one of your passports.
Which law, pray tell, applies here exactly?
I told you already 'whatever you want or need it to be'. Same as in lawless.
Let me put it this way for you. If you break into my house, armed or not, and I punch you in the head, I am defending my house. The Turks on the boat have the right to defend their boat. Get it?
Storming the ship in international waters is a crime. Killing in the course of the crime is murder.
If you want to acknowledge that the IOF and the entity in general sees itself as above mere laws of the goy then we can agree.
"If you break into my house, armed or not, and I punch you in the head, I am defending my house."
By their own admission, the flotilla was attempting to break into someone's house, armed or not. Who had the legitimate right to do the defending here? There is no question about who had the first right to defend their borders here. The only relevant question is "how did this get out of hand?"
Again, work on the sequence of events. You've got that mixed up.
"you Israeli types"?
I think you mean jews, why not just say it chicken shit?
I think you mean jews, why not just say it chicken shit?
Because you fascist git I said what I meant.
There were Jewish holocaust survivors on the boat.
Not every Jew is an appologist for the crimes of the israelis. Some are as appalled as I am.
It's about humanity. When you grow a pair maybe you'll acquire some.
Cold call great name for you Willie Lowman. Great life too. I can imagine no need to elaborate.
Chicken shit yourself you appologist scum.
Here, this should cheer you up. Qana, Lebabnon 1996. Let me hear you appologize this one away.
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/robert_fisk_qana.html
At least the old antisemites had some bollocks worth mentioning.
If you had any balls whatsoever you'd just say what you mean instead of the cretinous innuendo: "israeli types".
and who is Willie Lowman? Is he another "israeli type"???
You are one of these tools that willfully confuse disgust with Israel with hatred of Jews. This is a line of argument rarely pursued by present day Zino-philes because it is such obvious BS it makes them look foolish. But proceed to make a fool of yourself if you must.
Willy Lowman? Should have been Willy Loman.
You're ColdCall and you never heard of Wille?
What if I told you he operated the gates at Treblinka and swore up and down he wasn't a Jew?
Did I cause you to have an aneurism? Shucks, better luck next time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_a_Salesman
oh dear, you are frothing again :-)
You are an antisemite plain and simple, you gave yourself away too many times. But by all means keep denying it. Its fun to watch.
But you are well and truly clocked.
Sure pal,
And the Obama bunch are a bunch of America and Israel hating whackos. What you refer to as being an "apologist" is actually having the fortitude to defend one's nation and act in the national interest; UN be damned.
The UN has been corrupted by the unduly weighted influence of a bunch of third worlders and petty tyrants who've been dying to tell the strong nations off for years with some, any!, imprimatur and the Un is only too happy to oblige. Just as with their recent condemnation of Israel for not joing NPT and opening up their strategic defence programs to UN scrutiny, a pronouncement that said nothing about the whack Job Ahmadi-Nejad and his mullahs who are bent on ushering in the 12th Imam, is biased against Israel so too is anything that will be said about the Israelis enforcing their blockade of Gaza.
When you spend all your time unneccessarily apologizing, then tyrants rightly percieve your weakness of will. And that is when you are in the most danger of one of these vipers striking. Why is it that there have been 3 terrorist episodes in the US under President "open hand" Obama, and none folling 9-11 under the eeeeeeevvvolll Cowboy McChimperor BusHitlerHalliburton?
Your agenda can be seen through clearly. I'm sure you believe the US-Israeli alliance is the source of most of the evil on earth as well; am I right?
Illegal entry, use of force against a cop analogies. Hmmm. Know a little bit about criminal law, practiced it for twenty years, 10 as a prosecutor. If a cop illegally enters your home, you have the right to use reasonable force to prevent an illegal trespass. If the officer responds with force, it is illegal. Don't know how this would apply to maritime / international water stuff. Marla's analogy seems to apply to encountering a cop on the street. The rules are a little different there. It's basically the fourth amendment that gives the homeowner the special right to use reasonable force back. So it may very well rest on the legal entry onto the ship and whether or not the force used back was reasonable but again no expert in that area.
back to things of importance.... BP down 15% in early trading... big oil collapse brings down worldwide markets
I think this whole episode could have a very postive outcome, if Mr.Erdogan play his cards right, send a naval escort for the next ships going to Gaza, what do the Israelis do? Europe, and the Arab world will see him as helping a people, that, whatever your pollitical ideas are, or how tough you are, still are living in a horrible situation. Does Isreal attack the escort? Turkey is a NATO country..an attack on Turkey is a de facto attack on the United States. The ships go throw, NATO trumps Israel. This could be the breaking point in the stalemate. AIPAC can have our congressman sign all the letter they want. But NATO is Europe, and Europe is a true ally in the world. We need to remember that. Our foreign policy is far to focused on Israel, no benefits and all costs, time to cut them loose and this is a perfect opportunity. Here is a piece on wrote on this, http://www.thecactusland.com/2010/04/end-of-republic.html
I believe Egypt is party to the blockade of Gaza also. The question is not just "what would the Israelis do?" What would Egypt do?
The current Egyptian government? They would do what ever their american handlers told them to do, which would be what ever the israelis told the americans to tell them.
Otherwise they get no more $2B++/year and they get the Sadam treatment.
We bring democracy from the barrel of the gun to Iraq and we pay the tyrant in Egypt to keep the lid on and do israel's bidding.
Oh it's confirmed; you are an America hater...
But you'll be happy after Obama get's done transforming our once proud nation into one which you and Michelle can finally be proud of, eh?
If you want to live in a Eurosocialist state that has a pusillanimous foreign policy why don't you just move to France, Germany, or Belgium maybe?
Beisdes, I hear Jooooooooo! hating is fashionable there...
Oh it's confirmed; you are an America hater...
No RocketBob, it's confirmed you are an idiot.
Obama's campaign finance director is now the chairman of AIPAC.
http://www.whorunsgov.com/Profiles/Lee_Rosenberg
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/136628
Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Pritzker
It would seem that "open the border with Gaza" is the appropriate answer. Are we to presume that Israel told them to do that?
Yes, the Israeli Occupation Forces certainly need some comic relief right now to distract from their latest outrage.
Go back to Stormfront.
i do love some of the muppets on this site.
Now its about how dreadful those Israelis are for initially showing up to an ambush with just paint guns! How dare they come so unprepared!!
This damn jews threatening decent ordinary folks with paint guns, its just too much!!!
I wonder if in situations like these Israel takes a look at the ground underneath its feet and ponders why a big player like the so-called all powerful Jewish cabal is standing on the checker board or if they've bought into the nonsense?
What good is a pawn that doesn't believe itself to be king?
I gotta say i use to be against Israel having its nukes but its clear as day that if there is one nation in this world that needs nukes to keep the loonies at bay, its the Israeli/jews.
Get use to it folks. Israel is there to stay and the only way to get rid of the pesky jews this time will be thermonuclear war.
Good luck with that.
i use to be against Israel having its nukes
When was that when you used to be a decent human being? Like never.
Israel has sparked the mid-east nuclear arms race. Soon all the "neighbors" will have them. Then what?
You idiots have painted yourselves into a corner and few tears will mark your end.
What effect do you see the imminent financial collapse of the empire having on your stolen hang out?
I'm neither Israeli nor Jewish you plonker. Which proves my original point that you are antisemetic scum :-)
Keep digging you moron.
Dude I guarantee you you are the anti-semite.
yeah right, i suppose that's your "takes one to know one nyahnyeha neyah neyah!" :-)
Your boy Obama said that a nuclear Iran was unacceptable and wouldn't happen on his watch?
Your useful idiot is painting us into this corner, and few tears will mark his end in 2012...
What makes you think I'd give a rat's ass about whatever Obama does?
Marla, two inconsistencies in the operation, to my mind; one) boarding a vessel by helicopter in the dark before dawn -- this would have been noisy and sursprising. Why not board the ship from boats in large numbers suddenly and quietly. Instead, one by one, down a rope, flotilla personnel disorientated, only torch-light for illumination. .. we know the boats were available because the commander of the operation was on a dinghy inbound, which leads to, second) if the aim was not to use deadly force, then why change the rules halfway through. Why not surrender? If the purpose of the operation was to bring the flotila to a halt, the presence of military on board brings the situation to a new level (everyone knows cavalry are either drunk or asleep or in between). The flotilla captain would have to be certifiable to dismiss the demands of the israeli navy when israeli soldiers are aboard his vessel. ..the job had been done. ..devil's advocate?
Oh, I don't think it was particularly well planned either. But, given that the other vessels surrendered without much issue, there may have been a false sense of security here. I do find it interesting that Israel is screwed either way. Board with non-lethal weapons as primaries, well, we see where that ended up (up to and including "It was a PR job!") Board with assault weapons in hand once on the deck, they are merciless killers. Strategy wise, it is interesting. Would you ever bother to mount another less-than-lethal deployment now if you were Israel? You are going to get tagged in public no matter what you do. Might as well impose such irresistible force that you don't end up with a protracted melee on the top deck. You might even end up with lower body counts that way.
I do find it interesting that Israel is screwed either way.
They caused their own dilemma by not waiting to see if the boats would actually enter territorial waters. Big difference. You're just not inclined to acknowledge because ... it makes your boys look bad as in inept.
Would the crew have fought to defend the ship if they had already entered israeli territorial waters? I don't think so. Hence, an avoidable tragedy.
I've been reading your comments as a disinterested third party so far but this is pretty funny. You are actually contending that (a) the ship might have turned back before reaching Israeli waters, and (b) the "crew" wouldn't have "defended" the ship if it had reached Israeli waters, but would have calmly submitted to boarding?
Sorry buddy but you're really reaching now.
I'm saying if you would have shown a little more jurisprudence, everybody could have had their cake. Stingy, won't concede an inch and we have dead people ... again.
You left them within their rights to defend the ship and I'm sure the Turkish sailors new that.
You have said through this action and many similar cases that there are no laws that apply to you.
Do you feel that's sustainable?
Certainly I would be prepared to engage in non-lethal incursions. the over-arching raison d'etre for maintaining morale of soldiers is the protection of non-combatants, civilians, the innocent. Armed forces around the globe and throughout history have suffered despair from following orders aligned to dubious rationale. Precisely this, is why US forces are undergoing challenges in Iraq and what has brought condemnation upon Knesset policy. It's also what brought the Ottomans first up against the wall once the Yugoslav buffer was removed.
This isn't so much about the tactics employed, all that was needed was the propeller to be disabled, this is about a powder keg being given vent. Israel is in a real difficult situation- no-one is going to help the Palestinians while they can be used as a tool to vilify Israel, and she could care less while possessing vastly superior defense capabilities. When the Arab nations surrounding the city of David are ready to offer comprehensive humanitarian resources to the Palestinian people, perhaps then it would be possible to shift the burden of fault squarely onto Israeli shoulders. .. all for just threescore years and ten.
The IDF are pirates-
they deserve the death penalty for their cold-blooded murder
Go away with this nonsense...Ms Foil.
The current Israeli government act like animals
no amount of lipstick can obscure the true nature of these pigs,
and I cannot condone the use of ridicule, irony and satire in respect of state-sponsored slaughter.
jewish pirates! So thats why they call them skull-caps! Of course.
What do you know about Naval operations? And there would have been no slaughter if the crew of the alleged "relief vessel" had complied with the IDF's instructions to dock at the indicated port; where the supplies would have been shipped after being screened for contraband.
But this wasn't really about supplies for Gaza, it was a cheap political play designed to embarrass the Israeli government. And the only way it will work is if enough hand-wringing Hamas apologists get control of the meta-narrative...
Not.