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Bailout Rebellion in Germany Heats Up
For the first time ever, a clear majority (60%) of Germans no longer sees any benefits to being part of the Eurozone, given all the risks, according to a poll published September 16 (FAZ, article in German). In the age group 45 to 54, it jumps to 67%. And 66% reject aiding Greece and other heavily indebted countries. Ominously for Chancellor Angela Merkel, 82% believe that her government's crisis management is bad, and 83% complain that they're kept in the dark about the politics of the euro crisis.
"There cannot be any prohibition to think" just so that the euro can be stabilized, wrote Philipp Rösler, Minister of Economics and Technology, in a commentary published on September 9 (Welt, article in German). "And the orderly default of Greece is part of that," he added. Instantly, all hell broke loose, and Denkverbot (prohibition to think) became a rallying cry against the onslaught of criticism that his remarks engendered.
Even Timothy Geithner, who attended the meeting of European finance ministers in Poland, fired off a broadside in Rösler's direction. In the same breath, he proposed the expansion—through leverage, of all things—of the European bailout mechanism, the EFSF. According to Austrian Finance Minister, Maria Fekter, who witnessed the scene, he warned of "catastrophic" economic risks due to the disputes among the countries of the Eurozone and due to the conflicts between these countries and the ECB. Then he demanded in dramatic terms, she said, that "we grab money with our hands to stabilize the banks and expand the EFSF unconditionally."
The smack-down was immediate. German Finance Minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, took Geithner to task and explained to him in no uncertain terms, according to Fekter, that it was not possible to burden the taxpayers to that extent, particularly not if only the taxpayers of Triple-A countries were to be burdened. A bailout "with tax money alone in the quantity that the USA imagines will not be feasible," Schäuble said. (Wiener Zeitung, article in German).
Vocal support for Rösler came today from a group of 16 prominent German economists. If the government in its efforts to stabilize the euro didn't consider the insolvency of a member country, they warned, Germany would become subject to endless extortion (FAZ, article in German). And to impose a Denkverbot concerning it would be a step back into "top-down state thinking." They further lamented that these policies would turn the Eurozone into a transfer union. If the government wanted to establish a transfer union, it should discuss that with the German voters, they demanded, because it would be a fundamental change in the E.U. constitution and should be legitimized by vote. Otherwise, Germany would be "threatened by a populist movement to exit the E.U."
Meanwhile, on his visit to Rome, Rösler had to face down Italian Finance Minister, Giulio Tremonti, who'd "vehemently" demanded the creation of Eurobonds, sources of the German delegation said (Zeit, article in German). President of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso, supported Tremonti's demands. But Rösler, like Merkel and others, rejected the idea. Transferring liabilities to other countries would remove pressure from debtor nations to reform, he said, differences in yields being a market-driven incentive to get the budget in order. Eurobonds are also legally impossible, he added, based on a recent decision by the German Federal Constitutional Court.
Eurozone must be honest: Big haircuts for bond holders, debt limits for all, says Die Zeit (article in German). The drama of saving European banks that hold Greek debt, and the debt of other tottering Eurozone nations, has been going on for a year and a half. Each effort to keep Greece on track follows the familiar script. Politicians promise spending cuts. Greeks demonstrate. E.U. inspectors check things out and leave angry. Germans declare that Greece will not get any relief until it fixes its problems. Then Greece notices that it needs yet more money and threatens to default. Germany nods. And the next installment gets paid.
By now, all hope for a happy ending has dissipated. Greece is suffering from a multitude of problems that defy quick fixes, among them a huge pile of debt, an inept and corrupt fiscal system where taxes are simply not collected, dysfunctional institutions, and a government-dominated economy. Even unlimited amounts of money can only defer the end game.
But there are already victims. The most recent one: The concept of an independent, apolitical central bank whose primary purpose is guarding the value of the currency, rather than monetizing the debt of countries that have spent beyond their means.
To see how it all started, read my first post on the Bailout Rebellion in Germany
Wolf Richter - www.testosteronepit.com
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Kataphraktos, greetings from germany. First of all i know noone who works 32 hours a week, everbody works over 40 hours i know. The only exclusion would be the Automobile Industry, they have a nation wide 36 hour plan which normally never gets reached as everyone works overtime.
Secondly besides that i agree with what youve said and you should realize that movement in germany even on the political level for a Greek Default is not a attack on greece but the best thing that can happen to you. It would be helpful if Greek Administration start realizing that they can get away with a substantial hair cut if they stop doing the banks begging.
Perhaps this goes too far but then again, maybe not: In the U.S., anger among the classes is being stoked high and hard. Union vs. non-union, haves vs. have-nots, etc. I think it is all by design to rally the Democrat base (thanks Mr. President!) when what we really need is someone who can bring the country together (go Ron Paul!). It's not hard to imagine that the same tactic is being used in Europe to rile the people of one country against another. Then again, it's probably just organic given the massive problems already in place.
well said! the best thing greeks can do- take down those nazi (german/french) scumbags. payback for ww2. burn THEM for a change
Oh really? Werent the Nazis like the Nemesis of the Bankers ? Didnt the NSDAP demand abolishment of compound interest systems and interest free credits for investments ? There is enough we can blame the Nazis with but blaming them for the Jewish Money Traders is laughable.
Right. True Nazis are committed Occultists. And, they walk amoung us today. Black Awakening, baby! Coming SOONER than you think.
Based on their actions, the last thing that the bankers want to see, and the only thing that would drive a stake through their black heart, is a sovereign default. The Greek citizens know full well that the existing Greek government is working with the European power brokers to rape Greece under austerity and they are going to continue raping Greece until they have nothing left to rape or they are prevented from doing so by force. The Greek people know full well that the existing government is working hand-in-hand with the European power brokers, so why the Greek leaders still have jobs is a mystery to me. I suppose the same could be said about many U.S. elected leaders, and I suppose in time when things get as bad for us here in the U.S. as they are in Greece my opinion will become more popular. As for the Greeks, if you know that the existing government is working in lockstep with other European leaders to harm Greece, and nothing is done to effect an immediate change to a pro-Greek leadership that will declare default and begin the rebuilding process ASAP, you cannot complain about how bad things are. That sounds harsh, sorry, but when the SHTF it's going to be a lot worse. There is no European bailout that can avert the approaching Greek default. The solvency issue cannot be fixed with bailouts. The only question is when will the rebuilding process begin. When conditions become unbearable, people will do what people have done for millions of year, fight for change, or migrate.
Great avatar
We will Greek slave. Weeeee wiiiiillllllllllll........
Kataphraktos,
We have all been watching Greece and we hate what we see. If someone is calling you lazy or stupid or you deserve it. They just don't understand. There is no justification for impoverishing, indebting and or enslaving. In fact it is the worst thing you could do to someone or their people. I don't think anybody on this board was siding with your government when they signed on to more debt as the Greek people rioted. In fact we were disgusted as the Greek government beat and gassed the Greek people for standing up.
Our leader's in the US have made it a crime to feed the hungry or any action that would make one less dependent on the government. Our education system is one of following orders, not analyzing. Our population is divided and dehumanized. There are many who conditioned to accept that homelessness, poverty etc... is the persons fault. As if it matters, how can suffering, especially by design be acceptable?
I was hoping the Greeks could help show us the way, with all those years of Ottoman oppression, the Greek people that I know understand history of government and taxes better than the average US citizen.
As far as the German people, they have made out better than most. For whatever the reason, I think this board is pleased to see the majority of the German people are against more debt. And we will see another example of how the majority of the people in every country today are completely powerless to do what we all know needs to be done.
Oh and about being pissed off, that might of sum up how we all found this board.
Today we protest on Wall Street on Constitution Day. I wonder if anyone will notice or if it will do any good. Good luck to them and those trying to stand.
The Greeks have already shown you the way. Don't pay taxes and the regime collapses. Greek people did not sign on to Gov. debt.
Greeks are prosperous and they have 80% house ownership (paid off) It's the government that is broke. the traitors.
Best outcome for Greece is for another PIIG to default first.
The Greek gov. puts the tax bill on the electricity bill. No pay no electricity. To retaliate the Greeks are buying portable generators (to power up the TV for the football game) candles, portable gas for cooking and the hell with the tax and electric bill.
History tells us that everytime the tax is higher than 50%, there is a revolution.
"So reap what you sow, Anglo-Saxon assholes, and enjoy as defaulting Greeks tear your crypto-fascist societies to shreds."
Well get the fuck on with it and default already! It's long past time for a change...
I'm not sure ZH-er's are ripping on Greek culture or work ethic per se, but mostly the unsustainably high levels of collectivism. It is always difficult to change a system, even slowly, when people have come to expect certain things. Just look at what's going on in my state (Wisconsin), just for a modest haircut. Imagine when the US has to actually start cutting social security and Medicare...
Thanks for the historical perspective, RE: Greece and A-S intervention. For the record I work about 45-50 hours a week, and I really don't complain about it unless public school teachers here start complaining about their work schedules.
What collectivism..? They pay no taxes and they are RUN by private sector oligarchs , the Shipowners lobby, since Onasis- Niarcos days!
Are you so far removed from FACTS that you swim in your ideological soup irrespective of reality? THe greek people have been raped by their local PRIVATE sector. ANd this sovereign debt CRISIS is about SAVING THE PRIVATE BANKS, SCIONS OF CAPITALISM...in Euro zone.
Its not about over spending governments; they not only don't spend they don't even collect taxes to run schools and hospitals.
Its total NON governance in Greece. Collectivism my ass!
Forgive my ignorance, but I was under the impression that something like 1/3 of Greek workers work for the government in some way. Also, they get early retirement pensions compared to others, as stated on this website. What about socialized health care? I use the term "collectivism" as a broad umbrella to encompass the full spectrum of government types from fascism to socialism (and their various degrees) all the way to full-blown communism, and in contrast to minarchism/libertarianism/Jeffersonianism.
I'm happy to hear further input from you, especially credible links.
Excellent points. We lose sight of the commonality between the productive classes in all the different countries. I hate contemplating the following mechanism, because our so-callled democracies are so flawed, but aside from a military coup ( unlikley, and even more unlikely to be a positive) , i am left with thinking the only (imperfect) solution will be "revolutions" at the ballot boxes. The public will have to elect true radicals intent on tearing down the current structures. Countries will have to default by design. The strong will have to cut loose the weak. Cherished social programs will have to be disemboweled. Iceland partially showed the way.....Germany and the US have to be prominent leaders. I dont see it yet, although there are stirrings. Until then, we can do our individual parts by avoiding feeding the beast and moving our stores of wealth over to gold/ hard assets. Paper should only ever be used for liquidity....would you ever think of having your wealth stored digitally on your smart phone? I think not....paper isnt basically any different.
I am. Phuck you Greek pig-dog i say! I am snorphlofugui of the clan snorphlofugui and now you feel our snorf! Bow i say! Bow down...and give us souvlaki or else!
Aloysius? SnuffleUPagus??
Ron Paul 2012
"This isn't about Germans against Greeks. This is about the raping of both German and Greek citizens by politicians to benefit bankers."
This phenomenon is thoroughly embedded across the developed world.
For each country's Ruling Politicians -- it matters not if you were democratically elected by the citizens of your country, you do not work for them, you work for the international banking/finance cartel.
If 90% of your citizens vehemently disagree with your policies, it matters not.
If your citizens then vote you out of office, you will be taken care of, and your replacements will follow exactly the same policies as before.
The picture that just flashed in my mind, is of General Zod & co., trapped in the Phantom Zone at the beginning of Superman II.
(Pic: http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DAW/Phantomzone.jpg )
That's us. Most of the populace of this planet. Trapped. Able to watch like a spectator, but powerless to effect change or escape.
Well you people should know that Germany made a lot of money because of Greeces deficits.
-Siemens scandal
-Military spending (exclusive contracts with the Germans)
-Olympic Games 2004
- Check the VW,Mercedes,BMW sales during this decade.
-Lidl
and much more!
Just dont say the Germans are the good guys in this.
The Germans are the bad guys because they sold quality products to the Greeks who now refuse to pay?
germans, germany -both need to be killed
please tell us why if you can. but you can't and won't.
Yes. Were you expecting something to make sense? We're ANGRY Mr. ManThong. Now PUT YOUR PANTS ON mr serious.
Lidl and Aldi will beat Walmart in their home market in the U.S. THey have unbeatable low prices and Walmart already lost the battle in Germany ;- )
"A bailout "with tax money alone in the quantity that the USA imagines will not be feasible," Schäuble said."
It aint feasable, but it will be done.
Benny and Timmy will devalue the dollar even faster and create more inflation, then Germany and the EuroTards will be forced to do the same.
"suffering from a multitude of problems that defy quick fixes, among them a huge pile of debt, an inept and corrupt fiscal system where taxes are simply not collected, dysfunctional institutions, and a government-dominated economy."
Hhhmmm, are they talking about America?
Where are Merkel's brown shirts when she needs them?
Probably at the dry cleaners. She can wear the blue shirts for now
I don't know what those people camping on Wall Street are thinking, but I hope they shit in the right places.
As for the EURO, this is a global fight with the same enemies and I am very hopeful the good Germans will do the right thing.
humanure to turn the NYSE into a garden? one can dream...
If you think that TPTB are letting that crowd anywhere near the exchange, you are smoking much better shit than I can get my hands on.
Yes, Banzai. We will take Mr. Geithner back. I know that Timmy G. has caused a lot of trouble and anger over there. He will be transfered back to Zeulenroda, where his family lived peacefully for centuries, taking care of the local "Karpfen".
After that, I am confident that President O will appoint a more capable man, right? Or do we get the Krugman shocker?
"According to Krugman, his interest in economics began with Isaac Asimov's Foundation novels, in which the social scientists of the future use "psychohistory" to attempt to save civilization. Since "psychohistory" in Asimov's sense of the word does not exist, Krugman turned to economics, which he considered the next best thing." (Wikipedia)
The two of them, Frick and Frack are of slightly different cloth, but belong in the same Keyensian dumpster.
If you read Asimov's later books, such as Robots and Empire, etc. then you find out that one or two long-"lived" robots were actually behind the whole course of human history. That is, psychohistory was a sham and the robots were guiding things (behind the scenes). I would say that psychohistory, in the sense of fake science supposedly based on math, is very real and well represented by modern day economics.
Let's say I have the modest privileges of a skilled and trusted tradesman.
Say for example, I'm an electrician...or heart surgeon. I am expected to produce predicable results and make good on any errors...incl death benefits for unintended electrocutions. In fact, I could face Federal criminal sanctions for certain high-risk tasks.
Note: I am trusted to perform, even to the extent that others are not even permitted to do my job because of its complexity and real risks to the public.
Now consider financiers and CDS gamblers and monetary policy wizards at the highest operating levels...where privileges and financial reward are unrivalled. What are the sanctions for their failure to perform? Or their damages to the public? Who would dare to enforce accountability on them?
Have they not forfeited their privileges? Are they immune to fair-dealing and justice? Is this a sensible social fabric?
First off do you sing "the leg bone's connected to the thigh bone"'song while doing heart surgery....cuz i sure do! Insofar as "anyone can do this so why do they get paid so much?" point well taken. No go finance NASA, the DOE, the Pentagon, all your social freebies like SSI, medicare, medicaid, education and your interstate highway--on six figures ala Tim Geithner or Ben Bernanke. Of course there's billionaires involved--their institutions pay for "all those freebies." if tim and ben and even obama had any sense they wouldn't take the job to begin with. Isn't it fascinating that thay want it anyways?
Q: What are the sanctions for their failure to perform? > You are thinking they are not performing as stipulated by their directors.
Q: Who would dare to enforce accountability on them? > Only when an appropriate scapegoat is required are these mental basket cases put to the guillotine in order to manage public sentiment.
Q: Are they immune to fair-dealing and justice? > Your definition of these terms stems from seeing society from the side of the mass illusion that there is "fair-dealing and justice" and not from the managers side where there are quotas and deadlines.
You vote them out of office. And say mean things about them. ON ZERO HEDGE no less! Don't you know this is a RESPECTABLE gin mill?
oh, shit, mutha fuckahs! it's ON!
this is the clear and present signal i've been waiting on.
this is the 'buy on the rumor' news, too!
get the fuck liquid is what i'm thinkin -- cause it's about to go molten!
if germany doesn't cow, the dollar may go first! oh shit! here we go!
this is going to get VERY interesting VERY fast. and it looks more and more like MASSIVE QEIII is in the pipe...and they may try to 'save' europe with it -- just to keep the orderly fall nice and orderly: first europe, then china, the usa...everybody agreed? didn't they?
snapolicious!
thinkin time!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0onT5Us4Mk
and the only sound that's left after the ambulences go/
is cinderella sweeping up on desolation row/
...and the Good Samaritian he's dressin/
he's gettin ready for the show/
he's goin to the carnival tonight/
on desolation row,
janus (BOB DYLAN IS A golden god!!!)
Don't be ridiculous, 100% of Germans could be against the bailouts and they would still go forward. That should be obvious after the Irish example and the SNB intervention. It doesn't matter what the people think
Correct. It is a very common perspective not to understand that the "representatives of the people" are actually "the employed flunkees of the Elite."
All they're fighting over is paper money. But it ain't about paper money, it's about stuff. Besides all the fat cats got plenty of paper money. The only question is what are they going to buy with it?
Missing in all of this is the importance of beer. I for one have a very good one right now. A very nice Heffa Pyramid Apricot that I will devour and it will do its part like the good german soldier that it is. And after that I may switch to ohhh say fine Juggernaut and it will do its part like all good German Soldiers.
The point is that whether your drinking Oregon made beers like I am now or Mexican or Dominican Republic they are all made by Germans.
These Germans are crafty bastards and know how to make a fine beer where ever they find themselves to be expats in.
Any race of rats or cockroaches or humans that can do that deserves a cheers and a thank you and should be feared and respected.
Germans will out live us all because they know how to make an honest brew.
I will now stop typing ....
Mmmmm
That was good .........
Where was I?
Oh yeah Germany .... to you I solute a solid record of evolution .....
mmmmm but time for the Juggernaut .... Germans ... the best ever
everythin german is shit-u2
Im not German but I wish I had some of that fine blood ... that is a solid blood line and a solid people. I have respect for them even though they have leveled many of my ancestors homelands.
But I love beer and I know one thing ... Germans seriously know how to make beer ... they have it down. And they know how to make a lot of other things. In all honesty if they would have closed their borders and stayed out of the EU and just made the benzs and beer they would be even more rocking right now and wouldnt be forced to pay for the begger nations and have the internal problems they have now.
But their just as stupid as the rest of us when it comes to globalization and so their on the hook for hundreds of billions for people that simply put can not compete on their level.
Wish I had some german blood lol. I'll be happy with my French/Irish/Czech blood its fine by me.
You are a sad idiot with inferiority complex.
I can see you licking the german boot stamped on your face....forever.
that comment gets you idiot of the year award.
Not so fancy here. I usually sip a Shiner Bock longneck while I clean my weapon. Now that's gusto-grabbin'.