Do We Need Politicians, Or Can We Cut Out the Middleman?

George Washington's picture

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Milton Waddams's picture

The Game changes when people begin to recognize that all economic theory today is based on a model incorporating a monolithic competitor that is a diametric opposite of your position.  Smart people have known this for years; which is why they've got into bed with China.

cranky-old-geezer's picture



Voting would never produce a just society. That fact has been proven over and over again down through history.

Only a strong framework of just laws produces a just society. Assuming those laws are enforced.

That's what we had in America starting out. A strong framework of just laws. But over time enforcement of those laws grew weaker and weaker to the point where they're not enforced at all anymore.

There is no such thing as individual rights. There is only limitations on government. Every "right" people think they have is really just a limitation on government. Or a limitation on other people.

For example the "right to speak one's mind" is really a limitation on government. Government is prohibited from taking action against someone because of something they say, assuming no one else is harmed by it either.

If it were expressed as a limitation on government, it would be pretty much impossible for government to do an end run around it. But expressing it as an individual right gives government all sorts of ways to ignore it, explain it away, etc, because it's not stated in law as a limitation on government.

The second amendment contains a clause saying "shall not infringe". Does that clause prevent government from infringing on said right? No, obviously not.

But if it clearly said government shall not interfere with a citizen's freedom to keep and bear arms, it would be much more difficult for courts to do an end run around it. And it wouldn't matter if the majority voted for some kind of limitation, government couldn't enforce it because the law clearly says government shall not interfere.

We don't need more talk of rights. We need more "government shall not". Politicians will do whatever they want until they run up against "government shall not".

And yes, it has to be spelled out. So it can't be "interpreted" away. Politicians are like children. You have to say "NO" in clear terms for them to get it.

But we're at the point now where government ignores all laws. Politicians do whatever they want.

Voting can't fix that. Vote out one law-ignoring politician and vote in another one. Nothing changes.

When we get to this point where government just flat out ignores the law, the only solution is eliminate that government. Get rid of it completely.

... and that's exactly what the Founders said in the Declaration of Independence.

Once again GW completely misses the mark. The solution to our present day problem was stated clearly in the Declaration of Independence ...which GW apparently knows little or nothing about ...but the real George Washington helped write.

AnAnonymous's picture

That's what we had in America starting out. A strong framework of just laws.


What's preventing you from seeing 'justice' in these days if you see 'justice' in those days?

US citizens and their fabled past. It is heavy.

Cultural indoctrination and a specific genetic make up accomplish wonders.

acttang's picture

"Only a strong framework of just laws produces a just society". Sounds nice, except you didn't speicify who makes these "jest laws", and through what process. A good hearted dictator surrounded by couple of wise guys?

cranky-old-geezer's picture



Sorry, dup post, damn slow server.

cranky-old-geezer's picture



This comment is typical of many here on ZH. People here may some knowledge of finance but little or no knowledge of the legal foundation of the nation they live in, particularly here in America.

The "strong framework of just laws" I spoke of was not made by our government nor the people. It pre-existed the founding of America. It was not created in America. It was copied in America. Its creation traces back to the Magna Carta ...another thing people here know little or nothing about ...including GW.

This is why the DOI and Constitution are so brief. They didn't have to create a legal framework. They merely copy and reference an already established framework.

So we have a peanut gallery here on ZH who love commenting on the sad state of government in America today, suggesting all manner of ways to "fix it", when they have little or no knowledge of law to begin with, certainly no knowledge of the pre-existing legal framework America copied.

And no, Ron Paul wouldn't fix it either. He has the same lack of understanding of law and America's legal framework folks here on ZH do. He wants to end the Fed. So does everybody here. A child can figure that one out.

But what about his plan to eliminate 95% of federal law that clearly exceeds federal government constitutional authority? I haven't heard anything about that. What about his plan to prosecute banker criminals and their government puppets for treason and execute them? I haven't heard anything about that either.

On top of that, Ron Paul is just one man. Against 500+ bought and paid for people in congress, plus thousands of federal bureaucrats deeply committed to the status quo, plus hundreds of thousands of loyal knuckle-dragging mercenary thugs (aka "law enforcement") helping preserve that status quo at gunpoint, plus an entire federal judiciary bought and paid for.

Nobody can reverse that. A hundred Ron Pauls couldn't reverse it. It's just too damn big.

The only solution is get rid of it, completely, and start over. Exactly what the Founders said in the DOI.

Oh yes, they knew way more than we give them credit for.'s picture

Ron Paul has said repeatedly that he would defund unconstitutional programs. He would end some immediately (foreign occupation) and support others (entitlement programs) for a period of time while those who are dependent on them can adjust to a new system.

Ron Paul opposes capital punishment so he won't try to execute bankers or anyone else. But he will end unconstitutional support of banks and other special interests.

cranky-old-geezer's picture



You make it soud like Ron Paul would be some sort of dictator, implementing his desires in spite of total opposition from 535 members of congress who very much like the status quo.

Forget it.  Ron Palul wouldn't be able to do any of the things you mention.  Not one.  He would go through 4 years of POTUS accomplishing ZERO  ...if he could get elected at all ...which is highly doubtful.

AnAnonymous's picture

US citizens are creatures of comfort. This guy stated in his post. A 'just' society is a society he is comfortable with, as the good ole US.

Who cares who produces the 'just' laws as long as US citizens are comfortable with them?

Actually, US citizens hate on Justice. They largely prefer injustice. Do not expect just laws in the US. Only injustice US citizens are comfortable with.

That is the current big issue: more and more US citizens are falling on the wrong side of injustice and by thus are growing more and more uncomfortable with the US laws.

George Washington's picture


Thank you, sir.  That is actually a very interesting and educational point.

cranky-old-geezer's picture



You're welcome GW, and please stop posting nonsense like this. 

ZH is becoming one of the top financial sites on the internet.  Emphasis on financial.  Please respect the venue, culture, and integrity of this site. 

falak pema's picture

Its called 'hegemonical regulatory capture'. Its the salt and pepper of government play since the time of the Catholic church. Be the law maker and then turn the law to your private benefit by acting as neutral 'regulator', ostensibly to ensure that laws are strictly abided to, but in fact to ensure your private agenda. Very Machiavellic, basis of all 'reason of state' like 'reason of church' logic, throughout the ages. 

To come back to the core issue : your personal rights begin where the personal rights of others end... the principle of all good governance of the individual/collective liberty divide. Based on rule of law and its effectively true application without 'political' slant. Justice should always be blind and not know who is powerful and who is weak when it weighs the balance.

That is the KILLER in representative democracy. It is always manipulated in the favor of the strong, is Justice...

Just to highlight this pernicious twist in modern society : In the US even the top bureaucrats are elected. In Europe they are a permanent neutral body, sworn to be apolitic in their status as permanent government servants. By thinning the elected pyramid and reinforcing the government servant base, it could put a brake on the generalised corruption. Those government civil servants don't have political agendas as they are NOT there for four years. But it does have other disadvantages, as they become a huge inertia wheel and when you want to thin out the government sector as technological progress and productivity gains make it possible to have fewer human resources required to do same government ouput, they become a conservative resistance lobby to change. Swings and roundabouts.

jeff montanye's picture

u.s. constitution '88 and following, ron paul '12. 

Paul Bogdanich's picture

"Wouldn't it be nice"

geekgrrl's picture

I know this probably an unpopular opinion, but I think the people would be much better off if we just got rid of the federal government and governed on a state-by-state basis. It seems to me that scale is such a huge factor in politics that any analysis that ignores scale is suspect in my view. Look at the Swiss, a small country, comparable to many states. I remember seeing a PBS show years ago about the progression of social structures. The political organization changed as the number of people increased, from clans, to tribes, to bands, to states, to nation-states, to countries. Generally it went from a state of almost total freedom with few "laws," to the inescapable prison we all live in now, where there are literally so many laws that the claim that 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' is utterly ridiculous, since even specialists like tax attorneys need constant refresher courses to keep up with the insane increases in new laws and regulations. Even the sitting Secretary of the Treasury is unable to properly complete his taxes!

We have reached the apogee of bureaucracy. After that comes chaos.

falak pema's picture

Just one problem with your take : Oligarchical USA was built on the basis of central government, went continental after civil war, went global after WW2, went hegemonic after Reagan. So it'll take a hard landing of this financial meltdown magnitude to shake this construct to its roots. But even then these guys hold all the cards. They'll won't leave except with their boots on....dead or alive.

geekgrrl's picture

Exactly!  That's the problem.

geekgrrl's picture

Exactly, same thing. The Eurozone would also do better if it disappeared and the individual countries went back to being countries.

For me, this ties back to Adam Smith, who pointed out the obvious: competition works best when there are a large number of small actors, none of whom are large enough to affect the rules of the game or move the market.

Both America and the EU (and China for that matter) violate those rules just on size alone. Make all states small, and make them numerous.

dolly madison's picture

You were wrong.  Your idea is not unpopular at all.  I think splitting up into states would be best.

geekgrrl's picture

Yes, I'm surprised but maybe I shouldn't be. Folks here seem to be coming to similar conclusions on their own, which is in itself a very interesting phenomenon.'s picture

That's a step in the right direction. I'm an anarchist but I'm willing to look at anything that moves things in the right direction and your suggestion fills that bill.

They could also give us our full allotment of congress critters. We're constitutionally allowed one for every 30,000 people but now we only have one representative for more than half a million people.

If there were currently 10,000 representatives you'd certainly have more diversity in congress. If you shared a congressman with only 30,000 other people instead of a half a million people you might get better service, too.


geekgrrl's picture

The way I'm seeing it, the devolution will be a reversal of what has already happened. This NWO business is an empty pipe dream that will never happen. It's too late; peak energy has already happened. It's going the other way, towards decentralization. First the states will break away from the union. Then the localities will break away from the state. In a declining energy scenario, I don't see any other alternative.

AnAnonymous's picture

This NWO business is an empty pipe dream that will never happen. It's too late; peak energy has already happened.


A global world order is an empty pipe dream? Waooooo, for US citizens, reality is fantaisy.

There is a current global world order and that is the US world order.

As to localism, they are already people who are confined into localism. Most indicates they are on the wrong side of US world order.

It is funny, comfort matters so much for US citizens. As soon something turns rough to them, it should be stopped at once. No matter that something destroyed millions of life just before. Only when it starts devasting US citizens life, it has to be stopped.

Globalism wont be stopped. Less and less US citizens are going to be on the right side of it.

And for people being stuck into localism in the near future, this will mean quite a lot of pain.'s picture

I think so, too. But I do have faith that, given a chance, somebody somewhere will resolve the energy dilemma. Or more in keeping with your post, a number of peole in various places will resolve such dilemmas locally if given the chance to act intelligently and independently.

Coldfire's picture

At this rate, there will soon be nothing left in America for politicians to steal, even from the future. Cue Kunstler's cornpone Hitler.

High Plains Drifter's picture

yep , God talked to the man called cain and told him to run for the presidency...yep....he is hearing voices now..........yep..........yep........

pods's picture

He woke up one morning and thought "I might just win this fucker?  Fuck that, I am out."


nah's picture

romney says OWS shouldnt ask questions... it hurts minorities peoples feelings



oyeah lol, wheres waldo lol

CapitalistRock's picture

Americans are the 1%. These kids at OWS have no idea how wealthy they are in the world. The rest of the world does know, however. Wake up.

dolly madison's picture

The rest of the world would also like to see us revolt,

Freddie's picture

Check out this incredibly weird OWS meet & greet with John Lewis in GA.  This is very weird.  Are they doing NLP like Hussein uses or is this what Pol Pot did with young people before they were instrcuted on how to suffocate old people and their parents while being cheered on by the crowd.  This is f***king creepy.'s picture

Amazing stuff.  That speaking with one voice thing makes me want to strangle someone. Or maybe everyone.

dolly madison's picture

That speaking with one voice thing was created when the police took away their bullhorns earlier in the protest.'s picture

One uses a bullhorn in order to be better understood in a large venue. That speaking with one voice thing makes it much harder for me to understand the speaker(s) because the natural cadence of speech is broken and listening becomes tedious.

For example:

That speaking with one voice thing -- that speaking with one voice thing -- is rather tedious to listen to -- is rather tedious to listen to -- it doesn't help me understand the speaker -- it doesn't help me understand the speaker  -- and apart from detracting from then message being delivered -- and apart from detracting from the message being delivered -- it's downright creepy -- it's downright creepy.

sasebo's picture

No big deal - elect Ron Paul. No more bernanke, geithner, holder, clinton, napalatano, obama, etc. Nothing but  Austrian economists & lawyers.

blindman's picture
Thursday, October 06, 2011
The Demands of the 99%
The founders knew this. Contrary to what false conservatives say on television, the founders had concerns about the concentration of wealth. James Madison had this to say:

“[T]he day will come when our Republic will be an impossibility. It will be an impossibility because wealth will be concentrated in the hands of few. A Republic cannot stand upon bayonets, and when the day comes...we must rely upon the wisdom of the best elements in the country to readjust the laws of the nation to the changed conditions.”
Wednesday October 5, 2011
Parks and Demonstration

America cannot expect a bunch of disenfranchised park-dwellers to come up with a solution to its economic woes -- they have a political ruling class to do that.

High Plains Drifter's picture

yes , they knew what it really was all about. they came from europe . they saw what was happening there. they understood banking and creating money out of thin air and the creation of wars in order to sink nations into never ending debt in order to control them. oh yes, they knew about this game all too well.......

pods's picture

And some of them loved it, cough-Hamilton- cough, .


byteshredder's picture

George, I'm suprised at you. Didn't you read Federalist Paper No. 10 written by your good friend James Madison - 4th President of the USA. James spelled-out the dangers of direct democracy a long time ago. 

George, I fear you have been studying those Frenchies, Rousseau and Robespierre haven't you? Haven't you!

AnAnonymous's picture

Rousseau is a swiss. But who cares in this US driven world?

dolly madison's picture

Yes, the elite have always talked about the dangers of direct democracy.  Of course they would.

HellFish's picture

This George is a clown and an insult to the original.

High Plains Drifter's picture

look its a hpd, west side............

everything was going pretty good to he started talking about israhole and 911......

well shit??