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Lets say that there is a population of 20 people. 10 are worth 1 million each, and 10 are worth zero each. The rich people have the makers of soylent green add a little "Rope" to the people food (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_of_the_Rollerboys) and soon the problem solves itself. Then everyone left alive is a millionaire and they have to find a new reason to exclude people. </humor>
Without land, of course people are poor. We have a system which allows a handful of people to claim they own pretty much everything on the planet. When you come out of your momma's vagina, you are told, "Hey kid, nice to meet you. See all this shit, it's ours, don't touch. You want a place to sleep, or maybe something to eat? Go flip burgers or cha-ching a cash register at Best Buy every day for the rest of your life, and then we'll think about it."
Give people back the land. If people could grow food, hunt, fish, raise livestock, and live...well, the way people live for thousands upon thousands of years until capitalism enclosed them into forced participation, then poverty could alleviate. Sure, people might not have a lot of "money" or soon-to-be-in-a-landfill-anyway consumer items, but they would have security in home, family, and future.
That used to work, it was called the rural agrarian model. It worked until it became functionally and economically unviable, which it became at about 1-1.5 billion people, with a population over 7 billion and given the amount of arable land on the planet you could not grow enough food to feed us all under that system. In fact, even using all available arable land and a highly mechanized petroleum dependent transportation infrastructure and a lot of petrochemical fertilizers and pesticides, and genetically modified seeds and animals we STILL have almost 100,000 people per day dying of malnutrition related diseases or starvation.
Also, nations under that system are unable to form centralized governments, and lacking such central controls you have tribal war on a pretty much continuous basis, look at Israel and Palestine, Israel has a central government but is under daily assault from Palestine. It is tribal, and it is at least in part because Palestinians have little working infrastructure and cannot feed themselves. It is a welfare economy dependent upon charity.
You all (most anyway) rant and rail against central federal governments but you would have NOTHING without it. You think getting rid of centralized governments is the answer? As if there was not inequality or poverty in the 16-19th centuries? It was actually far worse then and longevity itself is thanks to the benefits of pooling our resources for the good of all. Average lifespan of a contemporary of Abe Lincoln was 48. Today you can live twice that with average over 80 for women and nearly that for men. Why? Clean drinking water and sanitation are the largest part of it and that came from government, people did not then and will not now do either of those things by themselves, it is simply too expensive and logistically impossible. My sister got hepatitis after staying at a friends house for a few days where the well was essentially in the septic tank leech field, in order to have well water because there is no clean municipal water provided by government and a septic system because you have no sewer system maintained by government and in order that your neighbors septic system is not too close to your well you need to be one about 4 or more acres, any more crowded than that and you start getting serious health hazards, like cholera, yellow fever, hepititis. There is not nearly enough productive land/water for every family unit to have 4 or more acres of land that can support them. Even if there were an equal division would be labeled communism and you all would start shooting at those with too little space to support themselves.
Then there is food safety, immunization programs, and good nutrition, none of those things were even thought of prior to the start of the 20th century, except for nutrition but that was very dependent upon your wealth.
We have a lot of now life threatening problems and in order to solve them we have to identify each and work for the best solution we can manage, but to pretend they do not exist is suicide, as is trying to go back in time to "better" days, guess what, no matter how sentimental you are about the good ole days they are never coming back. We read here so often "fuck you, what is mine is mine and the rest of you are screwed if you try to get at it." Or, "it is either go back to a better life of the past or nothing at all." And it is YOU who are the problem not the rest of the world.
EDIT: I want to add that everywhere that had a rural agrarian socioeconomic structure also had slavery, serfdom, feudal vassels, called by a dozen names like indentured servants they were all the same thing. Slavery by any other name was not abolished anywhere till a region saw major urban centers and started to be mechanized, England had it's industrial revolution in the late 1700's and abolished slavery in 1833. America became industrial, urbanized, and mechanized in the early to mid 19th century and low and behold when did slavery become uneconomical? Serfdom was still the law in Russia till the communist revolution in 1917, and when did they rapidly begin industrialization? Right about 1910. Though there are still remnents of it our enslavement has mostly gone away, and it is an insult to the memory of those that were slaves to compare our current status to the horrors they went through. Still, one of the biggest attributes to slavery was the inability to to leave, pull up stakes and start over elsewhere, such as many people now feel because of the imprisonment of their underwater mortgages. Another was not getting to enjoy the fruits of your labor, it belonged to someone else, in modern times that is the theft by the wealthy that use bribery to have the law and enforcement tilted in their favor so that they take more and more every goddamned year in and year out.
I would have to agree with the fellow who earlier posted, "define poverty". While it is true that the level of wealth in developed countries is falling off a cliff it is for the reason that it generally never existed to begin with. Credit expansion creates the illusion of wealth, and keeps people relatively content. When it contracts it removes the wealth that was never there to begin with. I think the better question still remains how to create lasting wealth. We know that by producing things a country becomes a net creditor (like China) as the world buys its products. When it consumes it becomes a net debtor (like the USA). The question I have is how do you create this lasting wealth for a society. Where people can rely on increased standards of living, where the countries wealth does increase over time, where the equity markets can be relied upon to remain stable and not wipe out forty years of savings in one fell swoop (like 2008). I know the standard revolves around utilizing a societies savings that people put in a bank to be used in a conservative, intelligent way to build industry that produces products to be consumed by other countries. However this process is woefully slow and generally you create a society of misers and penny pinchers. In my opinion this is not prodictive either. We have many of our great innovations and advances as a result of risk and some monetary failure. This is a normal process where losses are sustained for the advancement of society. If you only allowed savings to be used for this we'd still likely be watching black and white TV's. It is a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't scenario. The elite as we call them are nothing more than capitalism at work. The small percentage usually provide for the masses in the creation of jobs and wealth. The question remains, "how to create lasting wealth in a developed society for all". Perhaps we are due for a new system.
The question I have is how do you create this lasting wealth for a society. Where people can rely on increased standards of living, where the countries wealth does increase over time, where the equity markets can be relied upon to remain stable and not wipe out forty years of savings in one fell swoop (like 2008). I know the standard revolves around utilizing a societies savings that people put in a bank to be used in a conservative, intelligent way to build industry that produces products to be consumed by other countries. However this process is woefully slow and generally you create a society of misers and penny pinchers.
Great advancements were made under the Gold Standard which also made savings a great investment-it is savings which makes a country rich-
The internal combustion engine-the automobile-the airplane-for example all came to be under Gold Standard-
Based on trade balance-Inflation and Deflation occurred in a smooth orderly fashion and everything including wages and prices ebbed and flowed around the amount of Gold that flowed into or out of the country-
Oh, I normally don't get involved with morons on this site and racial slurs but for the love of Pete STOP blaming the Jews or any other religion or person for societies woes. This is exactly what happened in Germany back in the 1940's. Of course poverty was the result of the Jews then too. The result was "Hitler". People blame everyone who are presumed to be the cause of poverty. They have children too. Do you really think that they don't care about future generations? Look opportuntiy was available to all. Those that wealth came to were the innovators and creators. That is it. Generally as a rule the ulta wealthy and the rich contribute far more to society than they take. They are the ultimate example of the dream that so many of you have. Even now, you can become one of them if you give people something they need and want. It isn't easy and anyone who is a self-made wealthy person will tell you that. I am not talking about penny pinching savers who do without most of their lives or who only focus on themselves but rather true entrepreneurs who create products or who are master sellers. Talk to them about wealth. Stop blaming others. Even in the Great Depression millionarires were created. Stop acting as if this is the end of true wealth (because it most certainly is not) and start looking for ways to join the rich. You say there aren't any. BS! You live in a free country which is better than most of the other areas of the world. You have unlimited free resources, like public libraries, grants, free technology, low cost food (yes, it is compared to moost other areas of the world), freedom of expression and the list goes on. It isn't perfect but I think you are taking what you have for granted. You shouldn't! Stop blaming others for your problems and put your energy to work where it will do some good. That is making others lives better.
I would have to agree with the fellow who earlier posted...
I would have to agree with the fellow who earlier posted...
Capitalism at work? Where? We don't have capitalism.
I sear to God I believe people actually have Stockholm Syndrome. Creation of actual, lasting wealth for the greatest number of people all at once is easy. Freedom creates wealth.
Paying 1/3 of your work output in an income tax isn't freedom, it's slavery. Paying another 1/3 of your income in an inflation tax every year isn't freedom, it's slavery. Paying property tax, where there is a threat to seize your land if you don't pay, is not "home ownership." It's a rental!
Imagine owning property (for real) and keeping your wages.
We all like freedom, its the having to shit in the street, no, make that a dirt path that we dislike.
We all like freedom, its the having to shit in the street, no, make that a dirt path that we dislike.
Uh, is that a figure of speech in some language I don't know?
Or do you really believe that paying income tax is what keeps you from shitting in the street?
Want to fight poverty?
Stop using the fraud money of liars and thieves. It is that simple.
Poverty is the result of systemic enablement of financial hostage-taking. This is entirely synthetic both in design and execution.
Barter and trade. Fuck the banks and their incorporated socialized leverage used to control you and every facet of your "free" life through taxation and inflation. They are the same tool when used as a financial weapon of mass destruction.
Lies, lies and more lies wrapped in taboo are the only thing you will find.
Kill dishonest money by just not using it.
How to make a rich man poor? - Buy a boat and marry a whore;
How to make that poor man rich? - Sell the boat and shoot the bitch.
The Obama transformation plan seems about right on schedule.
Blame Teleprompter Dog and his war on small businesses for poverty which has increased 45% since his election.
TelePrompTer dog is perfect!
That fucker lost America when the first payment of TARP went to record motherfucking bonuses.
He lost on the first day giving into the systemic hostage takers.
A coward and an empty pinstripe suit.
Just because someone has an origonal XBOX worth $5.00, and a tv and electricity to pay it on, doesnt mean shit. They eat twinkies and hot dogs bc they are dirt cheap, THAT is why they are fat. Just because one person in the hood is rollin around with chromed out 22" rims doesn't mean that there are not people living in abject poverty there either.
Here is an interesting interview with the homeless.
Shopping malls, restaurants, and spas are packed with people in my woods. Just saying...
In Italy the restaurants are full... says Berlusconi. So that is how we measure how things are going? The restaurants are full?
How about a scientific approach, and otherwise STFU!
Just wait til the credit runs out and the foreclosures are processed.
Almost all of the statistics cited are government metrics designed to idendify outliers (whose condition is largely the result of government actions anyway) for the purpose of promoting even more government.
New TV, car, cable, air conditioniong and fat.....but still "poor"....clearly there just isn't quite enough government to go around yet. Why can't the government create hungry, skinny and skilled poor people? - because it seems like those are the kind of people that are taking all the jobs on both the high and low end in this country.
Extreme relative poverty may be at record levels but extreme poverty (in the USA)...not even close.
People actually starved to death in the last depression by the way.
You ain’t seen nothing yet.
Hope and Change. ZH still has some Dem/Obam CS'ers.
Lies with statistics...
The key reason the poverty rate is rising is because they linked the $ amount that defines it to GDP.
I've seen multiple studies showing the average poor person in the US lives better then a rich person 50 years ago.
You are not poor if you have multiple computers, TVs, IPhones and a car.
And the food security stats are even more BS. You can get 2,000 calories of rice, beans, veggies and ramen for a couple $ a day. The number of people that truely can't afford to eat 2,000 calories a day is very small. Stop spending $2 on a freaking Coke and buy some rice & beans.
And the food security stats are even more BS.
And the food security stats are even more BS.
Not just the stats but what they define as food insecurity. Right from the link provided in item #5 guess who funded the study? ConAgra Food...why do you think they decided to fund the study?
Food insecurity? By the most commonly used definition a majority of Americans households with 4 or more people and a household income of $60K probably could quality as food insecurity based on the study questions. The verbage is intended to incite sympathy but looking at the questions that were used to define food insecure changes the perception pretty quickly. Jump right to Appendix A and ask yourself how you would answer the questions.
Food Insecurity in Households with Children: Prevalence, Severity, and Household Characteristics
It sounds like maybe they should teach these people some friggin meal planning! They could reduce the questions to about 4 and cut to the chase of truly insecurity households. Who gives a rat's rear how I feel? What is my body fat? Have I went more than 24 hours without eating? Do I have any medical conditions directly related to food deprivation? You get the point.
As an aside we took the quiz in our state awhile back when arguing with a moderate/borderline liberal family member about how generous the SNAP benefits were and the results surprised the moderate/borderline liberal family member. If we were on food stamps we would have more $$ for food than we do currently. We could eat fresh veggies, fruit and grass fed beef for most meals based on our family size and reimbursement amount. Granted we would have to cut out all snacks, the meals would need to be pre-planned and there would be no leftovers or crap in the house but we were able to demonstrate to this family member how much of what they hold dear in the press is baloney.
Lies with statistics is the truth. US people "in poverty" have plenty of stuff.
Laziness and incompetence are also at record highs.
Mainly at the governmental levels.
Anyone who still thinks the Western World is not being deliberately engineered by the Banksters and political puppets for actual global communism, should have a look at this page and video.
Big Ideas Page:http://www.abc.net.au/tv/bigideas/stories/2011/11/01/3352502.htm
Video of his talk:
This PRO-GLOBAL-COMMUNISM verbal sewer-slurry was broadcast 4-days ago in Australia, via the State broadcaster - ABC. It's the raving of a useful-idiot pseudo-philosopher jerk named "Slavoj Zizek", who managed to get a slot on ABC TV's "Big Idea's" program, where he pretended to speak sensibly about why global communism is the logical solution to the global financial crisis.
When what the crisis is, is just the debt-death of fiat paper contracts, from central bankster printerz. ... err ... so ... global communism is the 'answer' to that? How's about instead, we just get out a guillotine and stop it right in its tracks?
I don't know what's more sickening and disturbing, that he speaks this stupid crap, openly, or that he was not booed-off and appropriately beaten for his gross stupidity and incitement, via a supposed intelligencia (i.e. drooling academic fools and other assorted parasitic theorists) who keenly listened to him suggest this bat-shit crazy and backward proposal.
And then they applauded him.
Zizek's a well-known campus Red. The next Chomsky. At least he's a non-Tribal (?).
Zizek was born in Slovenia.
This is the depression right here, right now. Fukn bullshit govt statistics have been lying about it for years. Bullshit unemployment, Bullshit inflation, Bullshit GDP. It's all a load of crap. Fukn systems crashing so hard, and you can't even see it through the BULLSHIT.
Squid: you hit out of the park. the level of beatdown is hideous .
It is not just the poor that I am bothered about but those in the middle class that used to be pretty solid, the economic driver of our economy, now just one missed paycheck away from poverty. From what I can see unreported inflation has meant that one had to have raises, or returns on investment far above average just to stay in the same position, and speaking of which, poverty levels have been adjusted upward by a laughable CPI, $21 grand a year for a family of four? I would consider myself to be in poverty living alone if I made less than 30. Seriously, I have the equivalent income of a guy making $53,000 and while I am not in poverty I also can't buy a house, can't get my relatively small credit card balances down, have not been on a vacation since the mid eighties, never eat out, go to on average one movie per year, have not bought clothes since I had to because of a fire in 2001, and there is nothing left over after buying fuel, food, and paying bills.
Those were all things I used to more or less take for granted, and my Dad was able to provide with his one income and a stepmother working half time in the late sixties.
One more bout of inflation reporting stripped of all items actually rising in cost, then millions more will start checking out OWS as they find they too are in poverty.
For a relative perspective I in fact do make 30,000 a year. more specifically I'm a waiter in a restaurant with a biology degree. I'm closing on my own house next week and the total monthly payments including property taxes, insurance, and pmi will only be 700 dollars thanks to record low interest rates. I always cook delicious fresh food at home a lot of which comes from my friends garden down the block. I walk or bike everywhere including to work. even with my student loan payments ( I graduated in 2010) I'm still putting away about 5 k a year. I've lived in minnesota my entire life but intentionally move to florida after graduating from college because you can bicycle all year long, grow vegetables for much of the year ( fruit bearing trees fill the void), and housing prices are quite low. you can live a fairly luxurious lifestyle on 30,000 dollars a year you just have to be intelligent about it. literally anyone can do what I did. they can even do this better than I did by not going to college and being weighed down by student loan debt.
I've even got 15,000 dollars of physical gold and silver. during my last year of college I took out a private student loan that I put directly into this physical gold and silver. I'm up 50 percent and I only pay 5.25 percent interest. thats working the system!
+1, Rose !
good job rosex
BTR, I am not sure which labor market you are tied to, but your anecdote can be accurate. I think many people fail to recognize that, although I paused when you cited the duration of 20+ years with the same circumstances.
Anyone who has flexibility in the labor market has to collect their wits and move to communities that will no go tits up when things go bad. I do NOT recommend Anchorage, but any place else in Alaska could be quite attractive to the adventurous.
I was very much TP a couple years ago, but I am very much OWS today. I see them as the same coin; different sides. The people have had enough. This is why you will often hear me comment; hangings or war.
Not a lot of in-between at this point ...
In my opinion TP and OWS (add in credit union BS) are sideshows for what is really going on. Wealth tranfer. It happens everytime the system appears to be crashing. Who always takes the brunt of it? The middle class. When the system appears to be crashing is when the smart strike. The undereducated middle class becomes afraid and blindly throws their money into whatever the talking heads on tv tell them to do (which is 99% of the time a bad idea). The smarter amongst us take advantage of this situation. For example:
I am in the middle of trying to find a nice foreclosure or short sale. The houses in decent condition are being snapped up before I can even make an offer. Most of these people who are buying have cash to snap these up for pennies on the dollar. The same thing is happening at an even higher level in the banking system. Large banks are snapping up small banks and assets for pennies on the dollar.
Think of it this way. When you go to a bank to buy a house what really happens. The bank does not use its own money for the creation of your new debt. It uses your credit then charges you a fee for you using your own credit. Now when that house forecloses and is reposessed by the bank (who never used any of their own money in the transaction) they have just aquired a true asset which even if they sold for $100 they would be making a profit. This is why I do not believe the banking system is failing as a matter of fact I believe the large TBTF banks are actually doing quite well. We are just being led to believe they are close to failure to create chaos in the system - hence the wealth tranfer.
True enough...TP and OWS certainly aren't on the same page, but they do share the same disdain for the current system and want an overhaul.
Once again the root of the problem lies in the quality of our money supply-
If we would have had a locked supply with no USFR control-there could have been no bubbles blown and people would have been forced to live within their means-
Prices could not have outrun real affordability-
People were duped into believing they were becoming wealthy by going into debt to purchase real-estate that always went up in price while wages remained stagnant and was masked by the increasing net worth of real-estate ownership and outsourcing allowed the flow of cheap Asian goods to flow into the country to further disguise the continuing loss of jobs-then the bubble popped and here we are-
Poor people and high prices that are held high by the same scum Fed that created the bubble-
So they bail out the banks with taxpayer money and then allow that hot money to speculate in the commodity markets-keeping prices above affordability-
If prices were "allowed" to fall it would greatly ease the suffering of the poor-
What shocks me the most is the ferocious spending still going on. I have all kinds of friends who can't seem to run their debts high enough: pools, renovations, new cars, trips, ipods for all the kids, on and on it goes. Where the hell is the money coming from? And it's not just my friends - I pass our local strip mall and every brand new store built there in the last three years is absolutely slamming with customers. I know damned well the unemployment in my town is terrible and that gas and food prices are through the roof. Yet the spending binge continues. Am I missing something here or has everyone lost their minds when it comes to their wallets?
Where the hell is the money coming from? And it's not just my friends - I pass our local strip mall and every brand new store built there in the last three years is absolutely slamming with customers. I know damned well the unemployment in my town is terrible and that gas and food prices are through the roof. Yet the spending binge continues. Am I missing something here or has everyone lost their minds when it comes to their wallets?
People are still addicted to spending-it takes some time for sentiment to shift-
Where is the money coming from?
When people stop paying for mortgages and cars etc. and the banks wont foreclose because that would show a loss on their books and rich share and bond holders would lose so people live in homes and drive cars for free and that frees up a lot of money-
Although you wrote "don't rely in the main stream media to tell you everything" in looking at the links to your referenced data most of your data was obtained from CNN, USA Today, The New York Times, and Bloomberg with a couple of blogs sited and only one link to any form of hard data from the US Department of Agriculture. Although you referenced "U S. Census data" the link was to Bloomberg.
This makes your analysis nothing more than a regurgitation of anecdotal information of the MSM you condemn with little or no hard research actually carried out on your part. This is in fact the problem. Too many talking heads with no empirical data to back up their positions that they pass on as fact. How easily the sheep are taught to think and to beleive in the agenda…
As a point of fact, we have the most well off “poor” people on the planet. Look at the hard data. So lay off the guilt trips, you can not justify the need to redistribute my money to me.
well off what?
we have close to 30,000 people DIE each year because they cant afford basic healthcare.
So save the right wing BS.
I won't argue the healthcare system in the US isn't a clusterfuck, but I do know that affording basic healthcare for some Americans is a question of priority, not means.
And the collapse isn't even here... :(
They may be in poverty, as defined by US standards, but they won't give up their iPhone, Xbox, cable tv, and the list goes on. You want to see poverty go to Ethiopia or central Sudan. Americans are soft and have a lavish lifestyle compared to some of the areas of the world I have seen.
Love how the elites try to tell you that you have it great compared to living in Haiti. I wonder when they'll compare our current standard of living to say, a muddy farm in the year 1345 in England.
So, quit yer belly achin' and be happy with the little you have!
oh please, we have third world conditions right here in many american cities, so save me the BS. We have more violence, lack f health and dental care, lack of access to nutritional food, and on and on.
we have thousands die because of the poor food avialable, we have thousands more die because of no access to healthacre, we have third world child mortaility rates.
Learn so facts before you spew some Limbaugh crap.
Another Obama idiot. named speaks. As bad as RINO elitist Bush was - he was light years better than the muslim. This Depression is the left's.
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