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New Study – Traders are worse than Psychopaths
The University in St. Gallen, Switzerland (how appropriate) has come out with a study that compares traders with psychopaths. The surprising result was that not only do traders act like psychos, they’re worse. I’m not surprised at this at all. From NZZ:
The study reviewed the direct comparison of results with an existing study of 24 psychopaths in German high-security hospitals and a control group of 27 "normal" people.
The “normal people” that is referred to are 27 traders. Stock guys, FX/commodities traders and derivative types were the “normal' people that were stacked up against the actual crazies in the German nut house.
Even the experts were surprised by the result. They attest to the stock market professionals with a penchant for immense destruction.
The performance of the 27 dealers is even worse than the psychopaths.
"It's like beating one of the neighbor’s expensive cars with a baseball bat with the sole objective of owning the most beautiful car in the neighborhood."
Now that we “know” (what was has been suspected all along) that traders are nuts it’s worth looking at what a textbook definition of a psycho actually is.
1. Considerable superficial charm, verbal facility and average or above average intelligence.
2. Unreliability, disregard for obligations, no sense of responsibility.
3. Untruthfulness and insincerity.
4. Inexplicable impulsiveness.
5. Antisocial behavior.
6. Poor judgment and failure to learn from experience.
7. Total self-centeredness.
8. General poverty of deep and lasting emotions.
9. Lack of any true insight, inability to see oneself as others do.
10. Fantastic and objectionable behavior, after drinking and sometimes even when not drinking--vulgarity, rudeness, quick mood shifts, pranks.
11. An impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated sex life.
.
There was a point in my life where I thought of myself as a successful trader. A “Master of the Universe”; a “Big swinging dick”. That was 20 years ago. Looking at the above list makes me cringe. To one degree or another all the descriptions fit parts of my life at the time.
I’m “All better” now…….
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i like some of your posts Bruce. Now I like you as a person.
you might find this educational and entertaining (it is long tho)
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3386
you're only feeding his psychopathic ego, you fool.
Apparently, the study look primarily at traders from Swiss banks and hedge funds. So, not your average home day trader or swing trader who probably isn't "worse than a psychopath." These bankers/hedgies were more destructive without regard for the losses than the psychopaths. I think this was common knowlege. But in defense of the Swiss bankers, at least they don't run Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan
What you are describing what I call the Negative Alpha. They are the leader class that is narcissistic, totally self absorbed, and beyond selfish. The only goal for this type is that they must control and own everything leaving you with nothing. Just about the only type left in Wall Street banks and government. Cheating to win is totally acceptable to this type because cheating is just using someone else's work that would have become yours anyway. The Negative Alpha will always be the force of destruction. Negative Alphas jump from place to place causing instability and decay.
There is the Positive Alpha that describes benevolent leaders and honest CEOs. The +Alpha believes that the work of others and the well being of them is what provides your power and security. The +Alpha realizes that by destroying others he is just destroying himself. Just like a Proton the +Alpha tries to remain stable but its movement and eventual breakup causes immense destruction because it was the glue holding everything together.
Negative Alpha has replaced Positive Alpha as the dominant force because our educational system rewards negative alpha and teaches psychosis as a valid form of thought.
Damn, my ex girlfriend should be a trader. Whaddaya know? :)
Delusional Psychopaths = Talmudic Judaism
Jewish Psychopathy - There is help available
Russia identifies Jewish Psychopathy Destroying the Earth
"Jack the Ripper" was Winston Churchill's Father
The History of Jewish Human Sacrifice
STFU bigot.
Carbon based traders are so 2008.
We are now entering a New World Order where markets are ruled by Silicone based traders where mindless, trend following, data mining, emotionless computers trade against each other in pico-seconds. Long live quants, algos and HFT.
Next target, CEOs and Central Bankers.
"Silicone based"?
Bathroom caulk and implants are silicone based, I think you mean silicon.
"Silicon valley" - the bay area
"Silicone valley" - Orange County
Bruce -
Did the study make any effort to control for groupthink? It would be interesting to "test" brand new traders and compare with seasoned vets.
Hear that. It's like looking in your rear view mirror, and see'in a po'lease car. But I'm not, given in, an inch, to fear,... cause I
On this website we regularly have posters calling for, even hoping for, a complete societal collapse. We have posters who actually seem upset that there aren't starving babies abandoned in the middle of the street, with open sores from which maggots ooze out (we have those here). We have a large number of people who think Hitler was too kind to the Jewish people. We have many more fantasizing about guillotines and "double-taps" of Blythe Masters or somebody they hate or who "manipulated" their favored market. We have an abundance of people boasting of all the guns and ammo they own, how good of a shot they are, what the killing power of their weapons is, and how they are ready to shoot anybody who disses them or coverts their freeze dried turkey tetrazini. We have people here who are so paranoid they think their own shadow is out to get them, and they seem to fear anyone whose family name begins with "R". Speaking of "R", check the avatars (no. 11 on your list?). Other avatars have a violent theme.
Almost every last one of the above is a PM hoarder.
Let the psychologists study that if they are in need of subjects, as well as generalizations or confirmation bias.
By the way, Bruce, have you ever met Paul Tudor Jones or Tom Steyer?
All of those exist, and more. The trick to navigating this site is to keep up with the articles written by those authors one finds most interesting (I'd definitely put Bruce at the top of that list) and to also pay attention to the comments from the ZH posters who consistently have something interesting to contribute. I admit I do not yet but I'm learning. If the more extreme posters scare people away, that's a shame. It's really a signal to noise thing, but the quality of the information here is priceless.
Tender readers looking for a Zero-Hedge lite would be doing themselves a disservice if they didn't stick it out just because of the posters you cite. They kind of add flavor.
Chindit I am convinced the craziest, most anti Semitic posts on this board are disinfo aimed at distracting the readers from important news and changing the subject, discrediting the site and driving away tender readers. Would be interested in your take on this.
Very generous of you. I happen to be of the belief that the craziest, most anti-Semitic posts on the board are written by the craziest, most anti-Semitic people on the site, who are not Kamikazes showing up just to offer their hateful rants, but who regularly post on most every topic and article on this site. They just tend to have a personal favorite.
Um. Whats your point?
Oh, I don't know. Maybe that this "study" is a generalization? Maybe that there is something rather unscientific about a study whose initial concept was to choose one group and try to compare only that group to psychopaths? Maybe it is that this study seems to be an attempt to pander to the pre-conceived notions of an increasingly large segment of society, and in doing so loses any professionalism and objectivity such a study might otherwise demand? Maybe it is that all of those negative personality traits mentioned, plus a whole lot more, are nakedly portrayed in front of the ZH readership each and every day by a large number of the non-trader posters, many of whom share a common like?
And the point of your post was?
Points well taken, Chindit. This site takes paranoia and conspiracy theory to art forms, but it is naive and simply wrong to equate guns with violence. Guns level the playing field. God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal.
The government does violence to us all day, every day. They have endless laws and regulations for that. So did Stalin and Hitler.
A better definition of violence in the modern world would be "chronic abuse of power."
nothing wrong with stacking PM's at all. It's called prudence and foresight.
The really dangerous posters are the quiet ones that just watch, learn and patiently plan.
Although I think I'm vastly more mild mannered than the trader posters on here, birds of a feather... (I think our commonality is not a basis for psychosis, but my wife's the professional on that).
I look back at my time on the floor and I think there were three types of traders:
Ones that knew all the fundamentals and/or chart points better than the rest
Ones that knew the math better than the rest
Or the pure traders that could trade any market, any product, and had the biggest balls
I think it was the pure traders that showed most or all the qualities of the pyschopaths
"it’s worth looking at what a textbook definition of a psycho actually is."
All the characteristics are relative, a common trait of all the false sciences; psychology, sociology, etc.
All the characteristics are common to every man, the question is only to what degree and how often. Only the arrogant and fool think they do not describe him.
When man in the West replaced God with his image and heart (relativism) the seeds of all the fruits now seen were planted.
Do you really think bread and circuses do not live within the heart of modern man?
Verily I say to you, progressives proclaim bread and circuses virtually every day via social welfare programs. It is only a matter of time before they must feed the pagan heart that sees evil and worthlessness in the successes of other men by feeding such men to the lions.
AMDG
Robert Heinlein said "if you can't put hard numbers on it, and successfully predict the outcome of the next experiment, it's not really science" or something close (from memory). I think that's what you're getting at?
A guy whose business card says "Sanitoral Engineer" is still just a janitor. CS Lewis pointed out that if you want to ruin people, work with their language first.
i have to return some videotapes
I think Bruce put it damn well. You can probably tell who these people are if you know one. They don't feel anything that you do. They probably don't share their hopes, and never share their fears. Once something is done, it is dismissed in their mind, even if it is causing continuing problems or pain. You may also remember them for when they suddenly left your circle when you challenged them on something they couldn't deal with. They don't hang out with no BS humans. There is nothing to gain and no stimulus.
i don't agree with anything you said and furthermore i don't care anyway, you.. you.. forgot your name already but you know who you are.
Trading makes you crazy. Now we have data on just how crazy it makes you.
Or your avg Wall St CEO... ever see the video of DIck Fuld wanting to rip someones heart out and eat it. That guy was sick.
Big deal.
Items 1-10 could describe 90% of all 22 yr. old men who have ever walked the Earth.
In other news, bears are using the woods as a bathroom and life isn't fair.
Hey, Alpine Europe....know who else are good traders?
The Greeks.
Bruce, you are so full of shit.
I consider myself a "trader." Come visit me in my crappy house, in my crappy small town, working my crappy job, driving my crappy car, and trading my crappy small capital. I have no insider information or any other advantage, except keeping my wits about me. I'm not hoping that the system collapses, but if it is going to (and I damn sure know I can't control that!) then I don't want to lose my ass while it does. As a trader, I struggle to see through the bullshit and get a handle on events as they unfold. I have a penchant for going short, but if I had any faith in the system, or any hope, I would be only too happy to go long. I just try to get out in front of the market, and make my trades. I guess you would say that makes me a psychopath.
Get a grip, and realize that the single word "trader," covers a lot of ground.
ZDD,
I don't think you should worry about whether you fit the trader/psychopath list. I would suggest you have your personal physician evaluate you for depression. I am not being a smartass. Things have been bad and getting worse for three years now.
Meanwhile, the MSM pumps "happy-talk" non-stop creating additional disorientation for people like us who can see and accept reality for what it is - and not what they tell us it shoud be.
Their are a number of medications available that won't make the news any better or make you believe the "happy-talk" but they will address your overall mental outlook and sense of physical well-being. I suggest this because you seemed to have missed the self-denigrating humor and satire from Bruce's posting.
I also know that this is a hard step to take IF you need take it (your doctor can tell you in 15 minutes). It was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life ... and one of the best.
barliman
I'm not sure what you are driving at, he does not seem depressed to me, however if you or a loved one suffers from depression I recommend SAM-E and vitamin B6 B12 and Folic acid.
They did for me what antidepressants were supposed to do but never did (voice of experience) with no side effects.
Zip, I believe you mistook Bruce's contribution as an inappropriate generalization applied to all traders. Even after re-reading this, I don't think his point was a personal attack on you or your life choices.
You describe in many ways why you don't fit the definition of a "successful" trader.
Okay, fine. You're no John Paulson. You're not a psycho. But from what you describe it does not seem that you're knocking the ball out of the park.
I guess there are traders, and then there are traders.
Yours Truly,
Piece of Shit
One wonders what is the threshold for "successful trader" anyway? In the 5-6 years I've been trading fulltime, I've not hit it out of the park, but I've booked solid 20-30% profits every year but this one (which ain't over yet). Most people don't see the negative traits in me listed above to any great degree either. I'm humble enough to admit they are there some -- they are in everyone, but I suppress them as they attempt to control me.
I've actually done this without ever committing my entire stake, most of it sits in cash (or "other"), while I do cowboy trades with "small units" of the total. I feel better able to take big risks with money "I can afford to lose". If you only count what I actually trade with (not quite fair, having a big cash/PM/land/etc stash makes it psychologically possible to do what I do, for me) then fer sure I'm hitting it out of the park in the sense that the part I trade at least doubles every year.
Ah but you see, you are not a successful trader.
No offense, but your innate human soul is holding you back. Purge yourself of all sympathy, attachment, and love of life and see what happens. You'll be as rich as any of those other sociopaths out there. Just stay away from ledges, we lose more successful traders that way.
Interesting, but trying to measure abstractions like "craziness" seems like dysfunctional behavior. It´s like asserting that one painting is better than another. Yet, so called experts engage in such weighing of abstractions all the time.
Anecdotally, seems most people these days display a handful of these characteristics; prevalence in modern society may be starkly higher than most would care to admit. Technocratic regimes evolving H. Sapiens to H. Psycho; willcommen to the brave new world.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2007-01-31-insecure-c...
All psychopaths are deeply insecure people. They are afraid of losing. It is all about image building ("I am better than you") and image preservation ("Can't think of losing my top dog position to you").
Good one Bruce, Stopped trading last year. Feel much better for it. But Ameritrade not happy, for sure.
The same characteristics fit the political class perfectly as well. If you ever wonder why Wall Street and Washington seem to be in cahoots, it's because politicians have the identical sociopathic tendencies as evidenced by...
- Gary Hart
- Bill Clinton
- Gary Condit
- Tom Delay
- Newt Gingrich
- Rod Blagojevich
- Jim McGreevy
- Kwame Kilpatrick
- Jon Hinson
- Anthony Weiner
- John Edwards
- Richard Nixon
- Eiiot Spitzer
- David Paterson
- Mark Sanford
- Joe Bruno
- Charlie Rangel
- Larry Craig
- Mark Foley
- Anthony Russo
And these are just the ones I can recall off the top of my head. If you want to know why Wall Street gets away with privatizing the gains and socializing the losses of its criminal behavior, look at the elected representatives they buy. Same characteristics... Buy a glib, oleaginous, narcissistic pol who can be easily corrupted and/or has weird sexual hang ups.
Rottenchildren choose Deviants and Psychopaths for the ballots because they are very easily manipulated and their inherent worthlessness makes them expendable.
What's scary is that all of these people exist in your mind.
TURN OFF THE TV! (before it's too late)
This board won't hold enough bits to list them all -- but you have a start there ResFam. Can't believe you left out Barney Fwank. Or Pelosi.
Too true. These left me speechless.
http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/and-it-gets-weirder/
ori
can't believe you left
Georgey
Dickie
Rummy
Wolfy
off your list, these guys are the poster boys of psycho profiteering, there cleaned it up for you a bit anyway
Or the world's greatest racist/extortionist, Jesse Jackson,
Or the world's greatest affirmative action fraud, Barry Hussein
Having sex is not psychopathic, nor is covering it up. It is their actions in their job that might better demonstrate if they are psycho or sociopaths.
My guess is that many of our pillars of industry and media would fit the same profile. Weren' t these the "cool kids" in 7th grade ... who apparently never grew up?
Indeed... It's not just limited to our national political leadership either. Local pols are some of the worst tyrants of all. Here's the common denominator: They are very, very good at convincing you that you need them. The reality is you don't.
http://www.theresilientfamily.com/2011/09/petty-tyrants/