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NYPD and Seattle Police Beat Up Protesters
New York Police Beat Up Protesters AGAIN Today
NYPD beat up protesters again today:
Occupy Wall Street Arrests; Fox 5 Crew and Protesters Hit by Mace, Batons: MyFoxNY.com
As Alexander Higgins reports:
Seattle Police Rough Up ProtestersThis video shows Luke Rudkowski and other Occupy Wall street protestors being beat with Batons by White Shirts as the NYPD pepper sprays other members of the crowd. [Rudkowski is the lead reporter for We Are Change.]
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This photo shows the crowd being pepper spayed.
Also Seattle Police roughed up protesters today:
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Then why play into the devide and conquer games of the elite with the right-left commie baiting bullshit. Which is better a fascist authoritarian asshole or a communist authoitarian asshole? They are both assholes. I think the protesters want liberty not communism.
Prometheus the ... wrote <Which is better a fascist authoritarian asshole or a communist authoritarian asshole?>
What do you know about either fascist authoritarian asshole or a communist authoritarian asshole? Trust me, you know nothing! You are brainwashed by the mainstream media and their oligarch masters.
Did you see old documentary where people all over Europe cheer Hitler and his party?
Did you see people in very many places welcome NAZI invaders including Soviet Union?
Do you know that Hitler gave their people hope and economic recovery?
Granted, Hitler and his Party were not very democratic but it was the will of the German people.
Do you know that the Stalin “communism” was not much different from the present Chinese communism system?
As for crimes committed by NAZI during the WWII, the war crimes were also committed by Soviets, Americans, British, and Japanese. Yes, Nazi built many concentration camps were many people died. The same is true for the Soviets and the USA.
So, before making stupid and uneducated statements, please educate yourself.
Commie baiting? I'm not baiting anyone, they are the ones "occupying", not me.
Your two options ARE the false narrative. Why haven't you put LIBERTY on the table???
What they (OWS) WANT and what their actions will result in are potentially wildly different, too. That is why they are labelled as "Useful idiots" by the writer of the marxist playbook. They stir up enough chaos and populist momentum with well intentioned (but poorly thought out) protests/riots to bring down the system. A system that while not perfect is far superior to marxism. In the background the forces of marxism are plotting their power grab. Why are unions on board? Why are Democrat Congressmen on board? Because this serves the socialist agenda. This is not going to benefit true liberty. Smaller government, sound money, PROPERTY RIGHTS, those things will restore liberty. The Constitution never promised equality of results, only equality of liberty. These A-holes want to have the brutal hand of government deliver equality of results, which can only be done through criminal confiscation. It will result in Atlas Shrugging and higher unemployment and greater inequity. Meanwhile we have given the government yet greater power to punish it's enemies.
No sir. I will never side with a group of people who want to steal from one man to give to another, whether he is wearing a $1500 suit or a goatee and bandana. I choose not to side with either of these groups. I want liberty and will support those who advocate for it like Ron Paul.
My impression is that people don't want Marxism, they want a real, reformed Capitalism. I know I do. This "privatize the profits, and socialize the losses" is what gets most peoples' goats. The risk/reward dynamic has to be present to maintain healthy, efficient markets.. It is this socialism for the wealthiest that people want reformed.
I agree with much of what you say you believe in, but Ron Paul has been running for President for ..let's see, how many years? You think he is going to make it this time? And, if he does not, then what? Just continue along with Facsism? Banksterism? Corporatism?
Do you think we have Capitalism now? We don't....and I really see no way to bring it back gently and quietly. This OWS movement may be somewhat incoherrent and immature, but huge oak trees started as budding acorns. Something has to whack the average American up side the head to wake them from their slumber. Who knows, this might even help Dr. Paul's chances.
However, to piously pronounce that you could never go along with a system of wealth re-distribution tells me that you hve not been paying attention to what has been happening. You need to re-examine that 99% thingy these protesters are ranting about, because the realization that TPTB have been giving the rest of us a royal fucking is beginning to crystalize with the common man.
Yes, those two options are the false narrative, so why are you playing into it with the phoney left-right thing? Yes liberty is the answer not the fascist status quo.
I guess I just don't understand your statement about phoney left-right thing. In my opinion, and probably many others, the left represents those that would have a larger, more powerful, more controlling and intrusive central government, with complete tyranny on the leftmost end of the spectrum. The right represents smaller, limited and less intrusive government, with complete submission by the government to the will of the free people on the rightmost end of the spectrum. It's just a way to simplify that spectrum of ideologies. Yes, In general democrats are on the left and Reps are in the middle-right area. I would say Ron Paul is toward the rightmost end of the spectrum. Is there something phoney about looking at political idealogies on a left to right spectrum that you object to? Do you have a better way? I don't understand your point.
The people in the OWS are extreme leftists (by my personal definition above). There's a good article on their "Demands" here: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/10/the_extremist_nut_jobs_of_occupy_wall_street.html
The "Right" has instituted the Patriot Act, warrantless wiretapping, suspension of Habeus Corpus - where is this fictional "less intrusive gov't? The "Right" invades countries so that Bechtel, KBR, Halliburton can fleece the taxpayer.... Their wealth redistribution supports a Corporatocracy - basically Fascism. The Democrats aren't "Left" wing. Obamacare forcing citizens to buy insurance from capitalist entities is Socialism? Way more money being spent on Blackwater type mercenaries? TSA? They all take money from TPTB, work for the wealthy and reduce citizens freedoms. It is a false Left/Right paradigm.
Raphio, all the things you are describing would never be enacted by a libertarian who abided by the Constitution. The relative orientation on a political spectrum you refer to as "the right" didn't do those things, wrong headed politicians...men, did those things. Nowadays you can see that both political parties support the wars, the wiretaps/patriot act, the action in Gitmo, cronyism, etc. Those are not the acts/values of a just and lawful government, and I do not support them. No matter who is in charge, the fact that the government is making you do something like buy insurance or spying on you illegaly in violation of your 4th amendment rights is in itself a left wing act of a totalitarian government. Picking winners and losers in the market is just another leftist "fascist" if you will, means of using power to reward friends and punish enemies. Bush was accused of doing it, now Obama is accused of doing it.
My claim is that all of this shit is left wing behavior. A Constituionally compliant government would never do those things. Ron Paul would never do those things.
Pupton, I have Libertarian leanings. I agree with you that Ron Paul is the best man in the race. I admire his commitment to ending the imperial project, and the Fed system, and his belief in capitalism. I am very independent and don't need gov't in my life. I disagree with his stance that private entities should regulate markets. I see that as a recipe for even more corruption than there is with public entities regulating the markets. I also have socialist leanings. I believe that working people should be allowed to bargain collectively, in order to secure a just relationship with their employers. I se the state as "We the People" and I think that a people can collectively do something as noble and progessive as creating a public healthcare system not driven by the profit motive. (by the way - Ayn Rand availed herself of the benefits of public health care in her later years). To me, there must be a balance, in society, between personal responsibility and collective compassion for those who ain't quite as smart as you n me There are no black and white solutions - only shades of grey, and all systems will be abused by selfish individuals.
But... "all this shit is left wing behaviour" is just wrong..... Right wing extremism isn't "Liberty" it's fascism. It has to do with who owns the means of production. If the true powers are in the state and they own the economy - that's communism. If the directives to the state come from wealthy oligarchs - that's fascism. That is, excess of capitalist/corporatist totalitarian power. If I lived in a Communist country, I would fight against Leftist power. But I don't, I live in a quasi fascist state, so I tend to fight against right wing power. I am on the side of liberty and against any totalitarian police state. Can you wrap yer head around that?
"My claim is that all of this shit is left wing behavior".
I guess Cheney is going to be very surprised to learn that he is a lefty. All those neo-cons, too.
Were you on another planet for the past decade?
I agree with a lot of your basic points, but then you have to come back and try to make everything a left/right issue.....like a useful idiot.
Fine, let's play your game and I'll replace "left" with "Big, mean government", and "right" with "harmless little government".
I'm in favor of "harmless little government". I think the OWS crowd wants "big mean government".
A "harmless little government" can't invade 5 countries in a decade, run up mind boggling amounts of debt, run every aspect of your life and pick winners and losers in the economy. I don't give a shit if Dick Cheney thinks he's one or the other...A harmless little government wouldn't have the resources or authority to do any of the shit that is ruining America right now.
Start with dismantling the federal reserve, and return to Constitutional gold and silver money. Then bring all the troops home, then dismantle 90% of the domestic programs and all of the regulations...that's a start. The only reason OWS has to protest at wall street is because WASHINGTON DC propped them up after they made a bunch of bad investments and failed, Those investments/decisions may have been encouraged by WASHINGTON DC.
Move the protest to the Federal Reserve and I'd be down there in a heartbeat! Or even the White House...but no, these people are cool with that part of the system...they just want a piece of the action, right?
Finally....we are coming together on this one. I was with you all the way until that last paragraph.
I have no idea what "these people" are cool with. I don't know who "these people" are. I see a bunch of scared, angry Americans who have woken up and relaized they have been had.
But other than that, regarding your post above I will just paraphrase Bob Dylan....we see it the same, we just see it from a different point of view.
The Right's lie is "Liberty", The Left's lie is "Equality". Ultimately they both deliver neither, and their response is a billy club and pepper spray. What I see at these protests is a courage to stand up to TPTB even if the message delivered may be somewhat inarticulate. People know something is rotten even if they can't define a CDS. It would be nice to see some Libertarians grow a pair and get out and put their money where their mouth is, but I suspect most of them are enjoying the spectacle of "Lefties" getting bludgeoned too much to do anything proactive.
The rightmost end of the spectrum is facsism not libertarianism. Liberty is not on the left-right spectrum at all.
Wrong ! The rightmost end is anarchy. The leftmost is Totalitarian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvhpeVJJEQ
Anarchy is not on the left-right spectrum at all.
Thanks! That Youtube link is great and I recommend everyone watch it right now. I've seen it before and shared it with friends. It clearly explains the political spectrum and the forms of government along the spectrum. America is a REPUBLIC, NOT A DEMOCRACY. "Democracy" is code for "let's supplant the rule of law because we have a majority". It is unjust. The self proclaimed (they aren't 99%) "99%" isn't "right" just because there are more of them, neither would 51% be right, only more numerous. If 51% wanted to exterminate the (fill in the blank) _____________ Jews, bankers, Redheads, democracy would allow it, a republic would not. Is it fair if 51% that pay no taxes wanted to sit on their ass all day and collect money from the 49% that do work and pay taxes, is that just? Well that's what is being pushed by your friends on the left right now. it is not right for anyone to steal, and it is immoral to redistribute wealth.
Prometheus is right, that anarchy is not really on the political spectrum. It is not a form of government, but a transitional period between forms of government. Anarchy is brought about by "revolutionaries" like Che, Muslim brotherhood, Castro, and some of the protestors in OWS in order to dislodge the system in power so they can impose their preferred system (always leftist). Some areas can remain under anarchy for extended periods of time, like Somalia, but that doesn't mean that is a right wing philosophy or form of government, just a lack of government and law and order.
Prometheus is wrong however, that fascism is a right wing form of government. It is a common and deliberately perpetuated myth/misconception. Fascism is in fact left wing, as defined by heavy handed government control over the economy and the people. Minimal government, liberty and lack of tyranny defines the right, not fascism. The only just form of government is a republic, based on a set of just laws like we had for a while in America. True democracy can't last...without the rule of law society implodes.
These labels lead to false dichotomies. Instead of seeing politics as a left-right one dimensional line, add a perpendicular axis labelled 'amount of government intervention' and then you can start plotting where a particular policy lies.
With communism, the government controls production; with fascism, the government tells private business owners what to do. It's basically the same thing. They're both left and right, in that they exercise almost total control over traditional left-wing-espousing liberties (social-sphere) and right-wing-espousing liberties (economic-sphere).
The OWS group is being supported by moveon.org, Unions, and some Democrat politicians. OWS may stand for some fine things but as long as OWS is being supported by these folks there is going to be an equal and opposite force that opposes OWS. moveon.org, the Unions, and the Democrats are not the friends of the average person as much as they would like you to believe they are. For example, the company that I work for just hired 25+ people in Bratislava and do you know why? Because wages are so much lower there. I can assure you that Unions ARE the reason these jobs went overseas. There is just no debating it. If my company could have paid Americans $12.00 per hour (plus benes) they would have but the Unions forced them to pay closer to $20 per hour (plus benes) so what's the motivation to employ them in the US? There is none. And those 25 people are just the tip of the iceberg - it's just an example I saw today. And don't tell me there aren't people in the US willing to work for $12 plus benes because you'd be a moron if you said that. Multply those 25 by 1000 for my company. And multiply that for every medium (and up) size business in the US and you'll understand why we have no jobs in the US. A huge portion of our manufacturing base is gone (to China). This movement can't be about wealth redistribution. It must be on bringing jobs back to the US.
The excuses that conservatarians give for not supporting the Wall St protests are pathetic.
Clue: Unions didn't ship those jobs overseas, your boss did. They keep the extra money they make from outsourcing jobs, they don't reinvest it in the USA except for buying themselves luxury goods. I guess you are cool with working for Chinese wages? Because that is what you're going to get unless working Americans demand some protection for American jobs.
Remember when teachers, public employees, unions, NPR, PBS and Planned Parenthood crashed the stock market, took trillions in TARP money, spilled a crapload of oil in the Gulf of Mexico, wiped out half of our 401ks, gave their selves billions in bonuses and payed no taxes? Yeah...me neither.
Right on. I think I like you. Logical, articulate, and nice avatar to boot. ;) Good points and agreed with all of it.
Sorry to call BS on your company, but the fact is that there are right to work states without unions where $12/Hr would be considered good wages (Southern Missouri comes to mind) and bene's would be icing on the cake. For that matter, in this economy, $10 + bene's would see 10 apps for every opening at least.
The real problem that I see (as a company manager) is a lack of work ethic. Too many potential employees think that making 9 of ten days in a two week span to be "good attendance". Arriving late to work or leaving early is a common bene that they automatically get and taking off work "when the mood strikes them" is a legitimate excuse. But dock them a lunch half hour when they only took 25 minutes is a criminal offense! BTW, missing "just 1 day" every two weeks amounts to 26 additional days off, which is more vacation than I get after 17 years.
Before we can bring jobs back, we have to get real about our own standards of living. CEO's should not make 500 times the average wage of their worker, that's the fault of BOD's. We need to stop comparing our wages to the city of "similar size" that pays more. Our workers have to understand that most companies that employ people are small to medium sized companies that are barely squeezing by because workers want $20/hour but want to buy cheap shit from overseas instead of products from USA firms. It's cheaper to sell a paper cone cup from argentinia than to make it here.
The OWS is partially a release of anger over the bailouts. It shows that some people are aware of the inequity of what happened and are demanding change. Just not "the change we can believe in" but the real thing.
"so what's the motivation to employ them in the US? There is none."
That pretty well sums up the problem, doesn't it? The motivation shoiuld be that if you ship American jobs off to other countries, when your goods come back to this market, there will be off-set tariffs.
How can we allow our industries to be blatently attacked by foreign governments who provide no benefits, no environmental protections, no safety standards, etc., and expect to maintain our standard of living? The obvious answer (just open your eyes) is that we can't.
The financial industry and the multi-national corporations have toatlly ass-raped America by literally buying our government. It is going to take a major popular uprising to force any changes, with "force" being the operative word.
What has to happen is a re-re-distribution of wealth, because current re-distribution of wealth has been flowing from bottom to top for about 40 years. It was sold as 'trickle down' economics, but like some much of the 'newspeak' propaganda bullshit spoonfed to the public, the true meaning was distorted. It should have properly been deemed 'gusher up' economics, because that's what happened.
And before I leave the topic, I really do get tired of refexive Union bashing. I am not a Union member. I am neither a Democrat nor Republican. I do know some history, though, and the thing is, Unions serve a very good purpose and they are responsible for many of the things we take for granted now, like child labor laws & standardized work weeks, as examples. Like anything else, even ice cream or fine wine, too much is not healthy. Always remember when discussing Unions that there are 2 parties in the negotiations. Management sits on the other side of the table. When I hear about some Union contract with outrageous benefits being approved, I just scratch my head in wonder at how weak managements must be. I guess the strong negotiators and most saavy 'bussiness people' must be the Union officials.
On the other hand, there is a problem with public sector Unions. I would not deny the public workers the right to organize, but I would establish a different Management team. Public sector workers negotiating with public officials is like 2 wolves and a goat negotiating on what's for dinner...and the taxpayer is the goat.
Flame on.
11b40 - You make a few good points, but anytime someone pushes wealth redistriubution I have to push back. Theft is theft man, whether the Fed takes it in the form on inflation, or the government takes it in the form of taxation. The free market does not steal, and your decision to buy a product is voluntary. Apple/Exxon Mobile are the biggest companies in America because they provide the biggest benefit to Americans.
Why you would want to punish the creators of wealth is beyond me, but it is wrong headed. That is what the unions want to do. They want to take the wealth from the creators and redistribute it to "the workers" via enforcement of market distorting rules that favor unions. Why can't Boeing build a plant in South Carolina? Because the NLRB and the Unions want to suck more blood from Boeing. So Boeing flees the union and moves to SC, where they are relentlessly pursued by the vampire union and government sponsors.
This has to stop because next time those jobs won't just move to SC, they will move to Mexico, or Indonesia, or anyplace else beyond the reach of the unions and the corrupt US Govt. with more favorable business conditions. Without incentives for businesses to stay here, you will see them leave in droves. Then the A-Holes try to blame the corporations for fleeing this union racket...can you blame them? Things won't improve until the rules make it easier to do business in America again.
"Weath Distribution", the talking point. You must not have noticed that for the last 30 years the wealth has been distibuted in the direction of the top 1-5% at the expense of everyone else, including yourself unless you happen to be a multimillionaire. This is the real "class warfare" and "wealth redistribution -- but whenever people start talking about levelling the playing field, it's a problem? And all the bitching about the government -- who do people think is corrputing the government with their money, public schoolteachers? It's corporate money.
I agree with your assessment. Exactly what I concluded too.
It's both, you fucking moron.
Both what, your highness?
It's pretty clear by now that you are just a Koch-sucking psudo-libertarian fascist. You pray to some free market that does not exist. There is a monopoly on the currency and corporations buy politicians and regulators. There is no free market and yet you defend it from those straw man commies. You speak of usefull idiots, well you are one for the fascists.
hehehe....have fun in your utopia comrade.
Well done, pupton. I am sick of all these TeaParty bashers who know nothing of the movement, yet have an opinion. I attended 3 D.C. events and there was little police presence. No arrests, no littering. Net effect: a change in congress; next year John Boehner has to look over his shoulder, as well. If you want to know who these people are, check out E.D. Hirsch,jr. They are a product of our co-opted public education system.
I'm already having fun. I don't have to wait for anything. Isn't fight club great?
Pupton is scared of some fictitious "Marxist, Soviet" threat from these people. Do you think he could actually handle the Burning Man type of freedom that most of these Freaks would prefer to anything as stultifying as "Soviet"? I think the real expression of unfettered "Liberty" - freed sexuality, freed drugs, freed religion, freed expression... would freak the shit out of Mr. Liberty here and he would go crying back to his dry ideologies.
Since we both agree that the government is corrupt, just where do you think the corruption is coming from?
The number of K-Street lobbiest employed by multi-nationals totally overwhelms the ones paid for by the unions. The financial indsutry essentially owns the government, and the result of their efforts is to fleece America...and any other place there is a pile of money.
I agree on the Boeing, but this is not a matter of Unions bad, Management good. There must be a balance.
Bottom line - the re-distribution of wealth to those at the top from those in the middle started about 40 years ago and it's ongoing. What's your plan to fix this country?
"What's your plan to fix this country?"
That's an easy one: http://www.ronpaul2012.com/
If Ron Paul gets the nomination, I will vote for him, but guess what? It won't happen.
So, what comes next? We get to choose between Romney & Obummer, while Wall St. rejoices. Change we can believe in, right?
I will take my chances with the OWS crowd and hope that the fruit that comes from the seeds they are planting will not be as bad as the rotten fruit being shoved down our throats today.
If given the choice of status quo or OWS agenda of hard socialism, I believe America is FAR better off under the status quo. I'm not defending the status quo, just saying OWS is not an improvement by any stretch. Agree to disagree. We would look like Greece in less than a decade (we might still end up there).
"or the OWS agenda of hard socialism"
I don't even know what the hell that means. But it sure makes for a good Fox Morning sound byte.
Just give it up dude. THIS is what collapse, anger, and rebellion against corruption looks like... It takes its form from many people, from many 'suasions, finding common ground in their efforts to decapitate the snake that is corporate controlled government.
Do you really think a true public awakening would look any different?
"agenda of hard socialism" I suppose my mailman is the soft socialist.
You're not hard Ron Paul. You're hard the corporate/hijacked Tea Party. And you neo-con converts make me sick.
...That pretty well sums up the problem, doesn't it? The motivation shoiuld be that if you ship American jobs off to other countries, when your goods come back to this market, there will be off-set tariffs.
So instead of 'American' companies shipping 'American jobs' overseas, and then shipping goods back into the country, you'll just have foreign companies selling us goods at prices we can't compete against. So the US companies will go bankrupt, and you'll lose American jobs anyway. Unless, of course, we introduce tariffs against those foreign companies, too. Worked well in the '30s with Smoot-Hawley, didn't it?
As for unions... they obviously push up wage prices. For people in unions. However, by pushing up wage levels, they decrease the demand for labor (if you doubt this - ask yourself what would happen if you pushed up the price of, say, chairs. Would you sell more, or fewer chairs?)
Child labor is a function of poverty. In a poor society, everyone has to work because if they don't the family starves. It was already on the way out in countries where increasing standards of living meant it was affordable to send kids to school. It had nothing to do with unionization.
As for unions... they obviously push up wage prices.
I think unions represent about 14-16 million workers, and the U.S. workforce is around 150 million (I might be wrong on my figures if I am please correct me). So you are saying that unions representing roughly 10% of the workforce forced wage levels to out price our goods? What about the 90% that don't have unions and compete against unions? While I do think some unions are out of control because their executives have become greedy, they have served an important function which is to keep corporate greed in check. Ironically this same greed has overtaken them. It seems to be a common flaw in mankind.
The majority of union workers are now public sector employees. An inconvenient truth. Do yourself a favor and look at the laws that some state legislatures have created to protect their union campaign contributors. Better yet, move to Illinois, buy an overvalued home and accept the liabilities that our corrupt politicians of both parties have wrought upon us.
Interestingly, pro-union people often argue that unions push up wage levels for people outside of the unions as well, because people doing equivalent-level work demand the same wage as union members.
But as my full statement was...
As for unions... they obviously push up wage prices. For people in unions.
... I don't feel the need to argue that particular point one way or the other ;-)
I think it's fair to say that if government employees are unionised, then they will push up the levels of government worker's pay, and this will certainly raise the cost of government, thus harming other workers through higher taxation. You can extend this argument to anything else. Employees getting paid more push up the prices of whatever it is they're producing, which harms other consumers because they can afford less of whatever it is the more highly paid people are producing.
At this point, I'd better point out that the biggest drain on the American economy isn't employee wages, but the parasitic MIC and finance industries... but that's a different kettle of monkees.
EPIC FAIL ..... As a union member in Las Vegas all non-union hotel workers in the city get paid similiar wages to union members to attract and hold workers vs. them working at union houses. If they were not paid close or the same wage then nobody of any "quality" would work there. All bartender jobs (which is my line of work) in Las vegas hotels are pegged to the going union wage. Local bars do not apply. Nice try Big Jim.
J in Vegas
Sorry I missed that part (For people in unions.)
I think it's fair to say that if government employees are unionised, then they will push up the levels of government worker's pay, and this will certainly raise the cost of government, thus harming other workers through higher taxation.
Its fair to say, but hardly the reason for our budget problems and so called need for higher taxation. OTH in the corporate world, is the problem high wages or incredibly cheap labor and incentives from foreign countries? Lets say we lower all union wages to $10.00 p.h., can this compete with foreign labor at $4-$10 a day and no benefits to be paid, lower taxes, no OSHA, no EPA, no workmans comp, ect...
There are natural limits to outsourcing. One is that the productivity of workers in developing countries tends to be lower, there are administration costs (can you speak Chinese?), there are higher rates of corruption, which necessitates bribery, there are increased political risks, as well as economic risks (currency movements) There's also the expense of shipping the stuff over to the US to be sold. And I don't know about you, but if I was a business owner I would pay a premium to have my business close enough that I could keep an eye on it. So it's not a straight $10ph vs $10pd comparison.
As I said, our biggest drain is our MIC and Finance industries. Having said that - without the MIC, the USD would no longer be world reserve currency and we could no longer print oil. Think what THAT would do to the American standard of living.
There are natural limits to outsourcing.
Right you are, but if you are a multinational which means the amount of output is on a huge scale then those problems are overcome. If you can substitute a Chinese engineer for a U.S. engineer then your savings are massive, now multiply that from the top down to the laborers, then all the other incentives like no benefits, no OSHA, no EPA, no workmans comp, certain favors from the gov.. Now multiply that over 5-10 yrs., these multinationals are making record profits. On top of that you have the dollar devaluation so if you decide to convert it into dollars then you have another advantage. As far as bribes go, that is a problem everywhere. I agree with your opinion on the MIC,oil, and the reserve currency. That is an unsustainable model that needs to be changed.
"Worked well in the '30s with Smoot-Hawley, didn't it?"
There is still debate about what did and did not work in the 30's, but this is not the 30's.
And, let me be clear. Tariffs are the only way I know of to protect our job base against predatory governments that will artificially de-value their currency or subsidize industries to attack our markets. So, I did not mean tariffs should apply to only American corps that off-shore, but to the countries the goods are coming from. Different tariffs for each country, dependding on the way they play the game.
Free Traders can yell and shout all they want, but common sense tells me they are WRONG. Fair Trade is not the same as Free Trade, and I am for Fair Trade.
Do you lock your doors at night? Do you have a fence around your property? Does your car have an alarm? Then you might just be a "protectionist".
Yes, there is debate about what did or did not work in the '30s... but I have yet to hear any serious disagreement that Smoot Hawley smashed trade and made everyone poorer. No, this is not the 30's... but if you feel that a new Smoot Hawley would not have the same effects it did back in the '30s, it's up to you to explain how this not being the '30s is in any way material.
Please explain how preventing outright thievery is analogous to trade protectionism. This only makes sense if you think foreigners are 'stealing' American jobs. Does this work the other way? When an American company out-competes other nations and sells (say) a lathe to an French company, is it 'stealing' French jobs? If exports are just a form of thievery maybe we should just ban them altogether. What dya think?
Good luck with the common-sense thing. There's a reason it took MILLENIA for some of humanity's smartest thinkers to make any progress with even some of the basics of economic theory (why people should be paid interest on loans, for example). If you think you're sufficiently smart to recapitulate centuries of debate and learning all on your ownsome you must be one smart cookie. Or a bit fucking conceited.
Guess you don't want to get into the Fair Trade vs Free Trade argument.
I don't claim to be terribly smart, but I do have a fair amount of experience, and I am pretty confident that the trend line for America has been headed in the wrong direction for a very long time.
I have watched as industry after industry has been gutted, our living standards declined, and un/under-employment has become endemic.
I have seen our education system dumbed down, our infrastructure cruble, and our 4th Estate become our enemy as power and influence is consolidated into fewer and fewer hands.
And you can take your free trade and stick it up your ass. It ain't working for the vast majority of Americans.