Occupy Wall St – Systemic Change Please

ilene's picture

Michael Hudson explains why the OWSers are not making specific, piecemeal-demands. He also discusses a public option in banking as a structural answer to the power of finance.  Wild guess - many here may agree with some of Michael's assessments, but take issue with his public option proposal. ~ Ilene 

Occupy Wall St. to a Bank in the Public Interest

Courtesy of Michael Hudson

 

More at The Real News

Michael discusses the growing Occupy Wall St movement and the opportunities for banking reform. 

Excerpt (paraphrasing Michael slightly):

I think it’s a very strong point that they haven’t made specific demands…  Their worry is that if they make specific demands, then the media and other people will make these particular demands the issue. That’s not the issue. The sense is that the financial system is dysfunctional as a system. That means that you can’t make a technocratic demand like “fix this,” or give a consumer protection law, or appoint Elizabeth Warren to the commission. 

It’s much bigger than that. There’s an awareness that the whole financial system is dysfunctional… The government is in the hands of the financial lobbyists. That’s why it’s called Occupy Wall Street, because [Wall Street] essentially bought the electoral campaigns and bought the Obama administration. And I can tell you that there was an absolute disgust yesterday and today after Mr. Obama’s attempt to hijack the Occupy Wall Street demonstration by saying “here’s what I’m trying to do to help,” and then he gave a couple of lobbying statements written by his Wall Street financial lobbies…

They’re disgusted with the Obama administration, they’re disgusted with the Bush administration and the republicans, they’re disgusted with politics being for sale to the highest lobbyists. And they’re disgusted with the debt overhead… The system doesn’t work, and they don’t want to reduce this to a set of technocratic little fix its and paste-its.

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deeznutz's picture

if you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do, you are misinformed.  - Mark Twain

Ranger4564's picture

Read the paper for the facts only, not the opinions.  Then read as many papers as you can, so you can verify to some extent the facts you were presented.

Westcoastliberal's picture

OWS is correct in not enumerating demands.  The entire system is fucked up in oh so many ways and the rape of the American people has gone on waaay too long.  I think if you melt it all down the root of the evil in money in politics; the rubicon was crossed with the "Citizens United" ruling by SCOTUS.  I agree with one of the prior posters here that all corp money should be totally banned from politics, and allow one lobbyist per industry (instead of 200 lobbyists to each politician).  Make the broadcast license holders provide free airtime for the candidates and air frequent debates at the national, state, and local level.  We need such a complete housecleaning of the systemic problems facing our country that I do not believe this movement could even begin to address them all.  Just sum it up with "we're pissed and change is coming, with or without you Mr. Politico.

buyingsterling's picture

The root of the problem is not money in politics, it is too much power in politics. Take the power largely out, the money will dry up. The opposite is not true, and in any case influence will find another way to tap power.

Clint Liquor's picture

I'm with you if banning Corporate money includes Unions.

Westcoastliberal's picture

OWS is correct in not enumerating demands.  The entire system is fucked up in oh so many ways and the rape of the American people has gone on waaay too long.  I think if you melt it all down the root of the evil in money in politics; the rubicon was crossed with the "Citizens United" ruling by SCOTUS.  I agree with one of the prior posters here that all corp money should be totally banned from politics, and allow one lobbyist per industry (instead of 200 lobbyists to each politician).  Make the broadcast license holders provide free airtime for the candidates and air frequent debates at the national, state, and local level.  We need such a complete housecleaning of the systemic problems facing our country that I do not believe this movement could even begin to address them all.  Just sum it up with "we're pissed and change is coming, with or without you Mr. Politico.

Winston Smith 2009's picture

When J6P and his wife and kids finally get off the sofa, then you might actually have significant change.  Until then...

High Plains Drifter's picture

on a side note.   al davis of the oakland raiders died yesterday.  thanks for the memories al.  whoever said controversy creates cash, must have had al in mind...........

3ringmike's picture

OWS is organized. it has allowed people of every stripe the chance to express their total frustration against a system that is broke. it's not in OWC's best interest to have demands that would try to fix anything. THE SYSTEM IS FUCKING BROKE. the people that i know want to work. so fuck you for trying to make those out of work sound like they are just lazy. besides just sitting in front of your computer in your pajamas, waiting to make a bet in the wallstreet casino does not make you productive. it just makes you a gambler, and gambling may make you sweat. but it's not really work.  

inca's picture
Jesse Ventura - NWO's Nightmare!

Letter to the Ruling Class

You control our world. You’ve poisoned the air we breathe, contaminated the water we drink, and copyrighted the food we eat. We fight in your wars, die for your causes, and sacrifice our freedoms to protect you. You’ve liquidated our savings, destroyed our middle class, and used our tax dollars to bailout your unending greed. We are slaves to your corporations, zombies to your airwaves, servants to your decadence. You’ve stolen our elections, assassinated our leaders, and abolished our basic rights as human beings.  We are hit… we are bleeding… but we ain’t got time to bleed. We will bring the giants to their knees and you will witness our revolution!

Sincerely,

The Serfs.

video+more here:  http://www.degaray.com/?p=1525

inca's picture
Jesse Ventura - NWO's Nightmare!

Letter to the Ruling Class

You control our world. You’ve poisoned the air we breathe, contaminated the water we drink, and copyrighted the food we eat. We fight in your wars, die for your causes, and sacrifice our freedoms to protect you. You’ve liquidated our savings, destroyed our middle class, and used our tax dollars to bailout your unending greed. We are slaves to your corporations, zombies to your airwaves, servants to your decadence. You’ve stolen our elections, assassinated our leaders, and abolished our basic rights as human beings.  We are hit… we are bleeding… but we ain’t got time to bleed. We will bring the giants to their knees and you will witness our revolution!

Sincerely,

The Serfs.

video+more here:  http://www.degaray.com/?p=1525

MobBarley's picture

Those that do not concern themselves with the governance of all the people, are not fit

to govern any of the people.

 

bill1102inf's picture

If you smell shit, stop breathing so shallow.

zippy_uk's picture

I think the key problems are:

1. Corporations want to SELL to the West, but have no intension of paying tax or providing jobs as they used to in the West. The result is massive consumer debts, broke governments and jobs offshoring.

2. Politicians need to take a hair cut in money for campaigns and personal privillege. This affects all Western countries, however it is stiking that the US media celebrates the winner of the US presidency based on who raised the most campaign cash. The change here should be that cash spent should not determin who wins. Forcing politicians to use the internet (its free to use) and a limited "Free" set of tv / radio broadcasts given by broadcasters as part of their license. Company contributions should be outlawed totally and no-one should be paid to work for a political party. This would give people more of a say in politics.

3. The banking industry needs to be made to compete for savings and have itself structured to prevent the need for bailouts from the tax payer. Then you will see the return of service to customers and better allocation of capital which will aid the economy.

If I were OWS I would simply state - STATUS QUO CANNOT CONTINUE and state those questions - and then DEMAND SOLUITIONS BE BROUGHT IN.

If OWS tries to provide solutions, corporate media will pick it appart - need to push the ball back. YOU broke it, YOU FIX IT. Even from the UK we can see these protests are bing ignored in US media. Outrageous considering these people protesting will have in some shape or form contributed directly in taxation to the bank bailouts.

ExpendableOne's picture

OWS is a clever method of gathering a "herd".  Once the "herd" is gathered, a few "cowboys" will stampede it towards their target of choice.  The 99% are those who have no clue who or what they will trample when the stampede begins.  

 

If they really wanted to make a statement, they could simply look at a map of DC and note the rush hour traffic flows.  Just a few well placed groups of people can and have choked the city on a regular work day.  Stop the governement sheeple from getting to work, stop the politicians from gathering and then you'll have made a statement.

 

Beware of the "cowboy's" though.  They will redirect these protests when the time is right for them.

 

Chuck Yeager's picture

OWS is a self aware entity and knows of the hazard you write of. That is why there are no demands. It simply exists for the formation of political will...to show politicians the we, the people, are aware that we were sold out. And that if you, the politician keep selling us out after being elected, then we, the people will use the kill switches built into our laws and constitutions by our forefathers to rout you out. We have more in common than we have differences. Thus the term, common man. The common man is waking, his house is a wreck and he Is justifyably pissed.

Are you kidding's picture

It's stacked against you!  The electoral college was designed to PREVENT anything like that from happening. The electors are determined by the two major parties...they're NOT independents.  You were sold out before you even bought it!  Do you think FOOLS created this nation?  It's all been fixed FAR longer than you can imagine.

buyingsterling's picture

BS. The new reality is looters and leeches, that was not the founders' intention, or they would not have demanded that only metal be legal tender. We had to wreck their systems to wreck the country.

If it is true that America's founders were purely selfish and intent on setting up a system to enslave the populace, then humanity has never had a decent government. ("Yes, that's the point!" cry the anarchists. But anarchy has been tried repeatedly. You don't hear about its successes because it leaves nothing behind, all its participants end up enslaved or swallowed up by some warlord.)

g's picture

I agree the system needs reform. I respect the OWS movement because we need to start somewhere. However, more focus needs to be directed toward the politicians. They are the people that hold the power to change the system. If they were uncorruptible then banks, wall st, and lobbyists would have no sway. Its our government that fell down on the job. It is our government that failed to regulate the financial system and enforce the laws. It is our government that refuses to punish fraud. If there is to be a peaceful change or transition to a better system then it has to be done politicially. I say let wall st do as it will. If we refused to participate and our 'elected' leaders had moral fortitude like Ron Paul then wall st and co would have no power. How does anyone expect anything to get fixed peacfully when the politicians are bought and paid for? It needs to start with the reformation of the poliiticans and the political system. One solution is to allow competeing currency, perhaps by the states. The first state that allows gold/silver backed currency is going to put a big dent in the power of the Fed. However, the politicians will never allow this to happen and that is where the efforts need to be directed. It is the political system that needs reform and any new system or changes need to hold individual liberty as its highest ideal. If we had competing currency systems, competing businesses, and competing ideals we would have a chance. But the government picks the winners and the losers, chooses when to enforce the law, and the list goes on. I am not anti-government, I am anti-corrupt government, and we need just enough government not the government largess that we have now that is in direct contravention of the constitution and our founding fathers. So if OWS is the start so be it, just do not forget to address where we need to change the laws and the system, politically, becuase if we can not change it there, well then I am afraid that this will degenerate dangerously.

LarryKudlow's picture

Rand Paul came on Fox to defend corporations and free market capitalism. Thank you Rand Paul.

Free market capitalism is still the best path to prosperity !

High Plains Drifter's picture

what is your definition of free market capitalism?

DaddyO's picture

 

 

 

Free market capitalism is still the best path to prosperity !

Agreed, just try to regain the ground consummend by the current crop of banksters/political waterbearers and you'll find out how far out of reach true free market capitalism remains.

DaddyO

blueridgeviews's picture

This same age group gave us Obuma and all his failed policies. They wonder why there aren't any jobs? Crony capitalism. Wonder why we still have TBTF banks? They paid Obama.

If these kids had any idea they would be protesting in front of the White house, the Federal Reserve Building, the Treasury building and the Capitol. For crying out loud they are protesting in front of the Air and Space Museum? Really??? The idiots of this country are out in full display and the few people that really understand why they are pissed are joining in.

There is nothing good that will come of this. Where were all these kids when 100,000's of people marched on DC back in 2009? Were they still reveling in their election of Obama? I wonder.

Did anyone see the guy defacating on the police car? Wow, that's original. The freaking police are just doing their job! This is not a protest it's a mob organized by the very people that want power and want you subservient to them. Useful idiots, as Stalin once quoted, were people that were sympathetic to communism and thought they were showing support when all the while they were held in contempt by the soviets and were being cynically used.

If we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat it.

bankruptcylawyer's picture

seriously, i'm not a democrat, but how many idiots out there day in day out do you hear complaining about everyone who elected 'obama'.

 

yea, like mccain would have really made a big difference. ok, so we wouldn't have had 'socialized healthcare'. please. the situation we have now would be EXACTLY the same. the president is irrelevant, the only relevant state of politics is not which president is in power, but which lobbying industry is in power. and for 20 years, the banks have held the mantle-and stilll do.

 

Tater Salad's picture

Bankruptcylawyer

"yea, like mccain would have really made a big difference. ok, so we wouldn't have had 'socialized healthcare'. please. the situation we have now would be EXACTLY the same. the president is irrelevant, the only relevant state of politics is not which president is in power, but which lobbying industry is in power. and for 20 years, the banks have held the mantle-and stilll do."

You can't be serious?  Exactly the same?  So Mccain would have been anti business, destroyed confidence, have sympathy for muslims, champion the Arib Spring, sue the banks, increase discretionary spending by 80% over bush, spend more than any president in the history of the country, I'm running out of ink bro. 

You need to pick up a paper, and maybe if you did in the first place this mother fucker wouldn't be in the white house.

Chuck Yeager's picture

Where is JFK when you need him? Oh yeah they shot him in the head.

Tater Salad's picture

You mean where's Lee Harvey Oswald?

High Plains Drifter's picture

well would you concede the point that aipac should be registered as agents of a foreign government?

maddogs's picture

The point of the argument-People don't know where, how or if, any particular subsection is the best one to "protest".. when it comes to the OWS people, or the citizens in general... is the message.

One might look at it from the point of view in the reactions. As I see it, 25% don't want change in the Financial system..so many think.. just a few more years, I'm so close, I've almost attained, don't threaten what I've built up on the scheme a it is now. 50% of the citizenry don't know what to think about the future of the "scheme and are torn, fence sitting, should we punish Bankers-Don't we need them? Should more or less regulation be the the rule of the day- Will it help or hurt this, long said "fragile Economy".

And 25%, simply have given up all hope as they see the "Scheme" as failed.-Croney Capitalism, system cannot change for anyone but "Insiders".. and the direction for "Insiders ? is up,, everyone else down.

So it's (Occupy Wall street) not yet at a place where the "masses" can prescribe, and they are not saying what to "prescribe",, only the current health is terrible, getting worse and it needs a different "prescription".

Is there enough power in the masses to change any one area of the Financial System? Do the masses have enough knowledge? They have no Authority, but demanding change influences those (Elected) to try.

Many people know the Federal reserve makes money, whether the Country does well or not, Many people know the mechanics of the Futures markets, the CFTC, Investment Houses/Banks keeps prices up, and consumers down, many people know the Military Industrial Complex receives one third to one half of every dollar collected in Taxes,,, many people know many things.. but the "masses" have not yet put all the "dots" together.

Without bringing the desire, first, to realize where a general problem lies, the seconds, subsections will not be looked at.

We have Bankers saying, it was not illegal, Representatives waffling and going where ever told-evidenced by D. Frank first being strong(not as strong as Glass S. Act) and now slowly being diluted.. even before most compliance has happened, a President that must be looking out the window every morning to see which way the wind blows and seems to read getting re-elected as the measure of what Policy should be, and Superior Court Judges being selected by party solicitation.

In revue, Banks decide what, Representatives decide how, The Presidents decide when and the Judicial decides if it can be. And they continually seem to be wrong, as evidenced by the Budget, the Debt, the Unemployment and worsening of U.S. Citizens bodily security.
So are the OWS people wrong?Look around... What's right?

 

Raging Debate's picture

Well put Maddog and Hudson is 100% correct that if OWS focuses on the wedge issues which is the middle layer of a 3d management structure, they will have been led off a cliff (again).

Emerging American leadership should add in these conceptual questions: Do we have truth in our socitety? Do we have freedom in this society? Do we have justice in this society? If not, the foundation containing air bubbles in the concrete must be fixed.

Then, at the issue level, people can more easily frame solutions and last, implement plans which are details. Details are at the bottom of the pyramid. Emerging leadership should read this piece on how societies form, mature and collapse in the 3d model: http://ragingdebate.com/browse-articles/government-and-politics/feeling-...

blueridgeviews's picture

The very same process that gives us all the problems that make people mad is what is happening at the OWS. Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez are all examples of the masses protesting, getting caught up in the mob mentality and changing the direction of their country. All of them have one thing in common, the individual is subservient to their new master. I don't judge anyone for being upset but I do get irritated when people are repeating the ills of the past through their lack of knowledge combined with an enthusiam for doing what they perceive as good. Perhaps the phrase"no good deed goes unpunished" needs to be pondered.

Critical thinking individuals not driven by what they hate but what is good will turn things around.

Many people at these rallies (observing from their ignorance of facts and history) can only be described by me as "joiners". A driving need of humans is to feel like they belong to a group. Social acceptance according to Maslow is at the top of an individuals needs after food,clothing, sleep and shelter. When a person is young, this need out ways the need to be correct (as evident by ones acceptance of the group mentality over logic) Penn and Teller did an enlightening experiment on the need to join. Check out this short video

http://youtu.be/yi3erdgVVTw

 

ReeferMac's picture

Throw the fucking bums out!

If they don't go peacefully, drag them to the curb and set fire to the lot of 'em!

Politicians are all crooks. I've never met an honest one.

Tater Salad's picture

"End American Aid to Isreal" on one of the protestors signs....

b b b but the financial system is dysfunctional...and, and the banks are evil and and ceo's make too much and and I want some of rich people's money and and and....

Dysfunctional indeed, dysfunctional indeed!

chiswickcat's picture

Yes indeed. End the aid to Israel. The aid which comes with strings attached, such as having to spend all $3BN/ a year of it

on US arms. Aid which the US military industrial complex was likely insturmental in lobbying congress for. What is the aid esentially used for? Taking land and supressing those expelled from it. 

Tater Salad's picture

Yes, and without that support for arms et. al. you'll be living under a Caliphate.  And what about Solyndra?  You don't mention that aid now do you?

Come on man, you think Isreal is the enimy?  The only incling of peace in the middle east.  It's otherwise a pit of dogs.  I stand by Isreal, those who don't are endangering our future, greatly! 

bankruptcylawyer's picture

change the banking system in the u.s. and the u.s. military will change its behavior too.

 

you are not going to change the internal behavior of a country by demanding a change (which will not happen anyway on its own) of 'external behavior.

change comes from within.

High Plains Drifter's picture

so after ten years of war, wars fought based upon lies, what change has come in the military?  not much.  i used to look for it but these days i have just about given up on them.  during the debt crisis a few months ago, the only thing heard from the military about it all ,was the cacaphony of murmuring, complaining about whether or not they would get paid on time.......this tells me a lot about them. after all of this time they still do what they do, not because it is right or wrong in their eyes but because it is their "job" ............to me this is a clear and present danger to anyone who loves liberty. the question then is this. would they do to us or try to do to us the same thing they are doing to innocent people in afghanistan and/or iraq.?  i have to say the answer to that is yes......yes they would ........they are not our army anymore and perhaps they never were. so who do they belong to?  the banks? naw.......

bankruptcylawyer's picture

hpd you are at heart a conspiracy theorist. 

you do not believe in simple answers. the simple answer is that if you crash the banks the military wil have to respond dramatically, and change their own behavior. the other answer is , you CANNOT crash the military by direct attack. if you think YOU can, than go for it. 

if you think blaming 'outside' elements and conspiracies for the militaries behavior, i just don't see how those influences could reach the military through any conduit OTHER than domestic banks, the biggest ones. 

 

please , enlighten me. give shape to your vague allusions.

 

spinone's picture

There is a reason there are no concrete demands.  There is no leadership of OWS.  These people just showed up on their own because they are pissed off.  They don't have demands, they are just mad. 

This kind of protest turns into a revolution

Ranger4564's picture

They are working on demands it seems because so many people keep demanding demands.  I think demands are idiotic. I think first, we need many more people so we can get a sense for what everyone wants, and second, we don't demand it, we just make it happen.  If you demand, you acknowledge someone else has the authority and you're asking for something.  If you just make it happen, you refuse to acknowledge the authority, thereby defeating it. You just do what it is you want to do.  That is the original goal, we'll see how it ends up with all the fucking demanders.

Cult of Criminality's picture

And I can tell you that there was an absolute disgust yesterday and today after Mr. Obama’s attempt to hijack the Occupy Wall Street demonstration by saying “here’s what I’m trying to do to help,” and then he gave a couple of lobbying statements written by his Wall Street financial lobbies…

...Theatre of the Surreal...

nmewn's picture

"Now go out there and fight for everything, not just lower taxes."

Ummm, what?

Because .gov has done such a splendid job with the taxes they collect now? I was apparently born in a much simpler time.

A time when, if your government was screwing up everything it touched in regards to how much they took out of the economy vs the benefits derived we cut them off the tit.

We have just come through a time where people were given loans they had no ability to repay. Banking is one of the most highly regulated "industries" there is, remember? Also a time of the prommisory green shoot memes of Cash for Clunkers...Cash for Caulkers...ObamaCare crammed down an unwilling populations throat...Dodd Frankenstein...taxpayer subsidized solar & wind that only enriches the well connected...etc...ad nauseum.

Its time to do what has always worked...cut them off the tit.

"...taxpayer subsidized solar & wind that only enriches the well connected..."

"Washington – Third Way announced today that Jonathan Silver, a top Obama Administration official at the Department of Energy is joining the think tank as a Visiting Distinguished Senior Fellow.

Third Way President Jonathan Cowan said, “I am delighted that Jonathan Silver, one of the nation’s leading experts on clean energy project financing, is becoming a Third Way Fellow and part of our team. His deep experience in the most senior levels of government and the private sector, and his understanding of how each operates, will help us tackle one of the most vexing problems that faces our nation: how do we to jumpstart a vibrant, innovative clean energy economy in the United States given the economic challenges before us? There is a clear need for the US to engage in the emerging $2.3 trillion global clean energy market. I can think of few people better to help us think through how to do this than Jonathan.”

Silver comes to Third Way from the U.S. Department of Energy, where he served as Executive Director of DOE’s Loan Programs Office. Mr. Silver led the Obama Administration’s multi-billion dollar investment program in alternative energy, financing a wide range of solar, wind, geothermal, biofuels, fossil and nuclear energy projects. He also headed the government’s investment program in advanced automotive technology making significant investments in transmission and electric vehicle manufacturers including Ford, the Nissan Leaf, Tesla Motors and Fisker.

“I’m excited to join Third Way, one of the nation’s leading think tanks and a real thought leader on clean energy issues. I’m looking forward to collaborating with the team on energy policy and energy finance issues,” Silver said."

Yeah, I bet you're looking forward to that Mr.Silver.

http://thirdway.org/press_releases/172

Ranger4564's picture

You completely missed what I meant.  I meant, don't stress about the taxes, think far beyond that and demand much more.

 

ps... i wasn't the one who down ranked you.

nmewn's picture

In a nation where only half pay any tax at all and the half that don't bitch about not having enough government cheese?

End the current tax code...implement a flat tax...not a VAT on top of an income tax. And abolish the Fed.

The government pays for what it doles out or it doesn't dole it out anything...including bailouts.

Edit:...junks have never concerned me but I appreciate your honesty ;-)

maddogs's picture

An intresesting retrospect, kinda ot, but only about 4% paid taxs before 1939.. and then up to 8% pre 1942.. at the most at any time/one year. Then having 43% with Employers dducting in an automatic manner... thru the war(II). in effect, if 50% pay Fedral Income Taxes, it's literaly ata high point<>!

Kinda odd isn't it? How ONLY 50%,, Keeps being yelled out, lol. That and there are some, due to Tax structure that do not "have to" pay ,little to none,, and some that actually get a refund after not owing taxes.

If one wa to add all the people involved with filing and reporting to the Tax Man(IRS) I would not be suprised if the "participation was at a high.

I only bring this up due to somethig I've observed for 40 years... there is a direct correlation to a highly stated condition, in our society,, and it's promugated somewhat strangley when historical refrence is brought into the picture.

Kinda like, all the screaming "Terrorist", we Invade Iraq, and it turns out 19 out of 20 Terrorists are from Egypt. Or "the Drug War, sans Marijauna inititives, and all this counter Cannibis programming on the TV. There are other examples but I'm just saying, ever notice that which is exclaimed the most... seems to be.. not all that distinct.. and even WRONG?

Another way to look at the simplest defining.. America has thehighest GDP(not including last 2-3 years) ever.. and actually has the highest amount of taxs collected(same exclusion).. the only diff as a trend, is that there is less from the middle class which is shrinking and the tax structure has lessened in 200-2001, 2003-2004 and 2009-2010.

I'd prefer the flat tax myself, and iMO, those that do, think of it as a "fair tax". The ones that decide everything in this country, are the wealthy, I think everyone would agree. So.. we don't get a Flat tax, or Sales/consumption Tax. There must be a reason. I'm guessing the Rich are the reason.. and the Tax breaks this last decade are the reason why.

In which case, I understand there would be some bending, some allowances in any Tax change,, but the wealthy would be paying more taxes than just another 3 % for sure.. they also would actually be paying the majority,, unless excused for capitol investment.

Keep in mind I believe Excise taxes and maybe 5% Wage tax is all the Govt. needs, everything else is a dole-out goingout bound.

 

nmewn's picture

"I'd prefer the flat tax myself, and iMO, those that do, think of it as a "fair tax". The ones that decide everything in this country, are the wealthy,"

Or the soon to be wealthy.

"I think everyone would agree. So.. we don't get a Flat tax, or Sales/consumption Tax. There must be a reason. I'm guessing the Rich are the reason.. and the Tax breaks this last decade are the reason why."

I would say its "influence"...not necessarilly "the rich".

There are a lot of things in play inside the tax code so hardly no one wants to touch it.

The bast thing about a flat tax or fair tax is it takes the pols out of it...thus making it useless to try and influence them...as everyone pays the same percent.

 

High Plains Drifter's picture

well since the irs is the bagman for the fed, then what would it mean if we had a vat tax?  is a vat tax constitutional (i guess if that means anything).......?   i believe what they will do is add the vat tax on top of the income tax..........it might be called a world tax or something.......