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Occupy Wall St – Systemic Change Please
Michael Hudson explains why the OWSers are not making specific, piecemeal-demands. He also discusses a public option in banking as a structural answer to the power of finance. Wild guess - many here may agree with some of Michael's assessments, but take issue with his public option proposal. ~ Ilene
Occupy Wall St. to a Bank in the Public Interest
Courtesy of Michael Hudson
Michael discusses the growing Occupy Wall St movement and the opportunities for banking reform.
Excerpt (paraphrasing Michael slightly):
I think it’s a very strong point that they haven’t made specific demands… Their worry is that if they make specific demands, then the media and other people will make these particular demands the issue. That’s not the issue. The sense is that the financial system is dysfunctional as a system. That means that you can’t make a technocratic demand like “fix this,” or give a consumer protection law, or appoint Elizabeth Warren to the commission.
It’s much bigger than that. There’s an awareness that the whole financial system is dysfunctional… The government is in the hands of the financial lobbyists. That’s why it’s called Occupy Wall Street, because [Wall Street] essentially bought the electoral campaigns and bought the Obama administration. And I can tell you that there was an absolute disgust yesterday and today after Mr. Obama’s attempt to hijack the Occupy Wall Street demonstration by saying “here’s what I’m trying to do to help,” and then he gave a couple of lobbying statements written by his Wall Street financial lobbies…
They’re disgusted with the Obama administration, they’re disgusted with the Bush administration and the republicans, they’re disgusted with politics being for sale to the highest lobbyists. And they’re disgusted with the debt overhead… The system doesn’t work, and they don’t want to reduce this to a set of technocratic little fix its and paste-its.
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I would humbly submit we have a VAT now, along with an income tax. At every phase of a product coming to market a tax is levied on it.
I'm against income taxes as they are unfair...and I'm very much middle class.
It is unfair...some pay, others do not. Some pay alot more than others. Everyone should have the same amount of skin in the game (percentage wise) for the same vote.
The tree of liberty is dying of thirst. Until it isn't.
I completely agree we need systemic change... this is systemic change.
Regarding violence or non-violence: Which do you think has achieved more success in history? Which do you think is the proper course for humanity now?
Technically, when you can muster the weaponry (and associated manpower) to fight the opponent, then it's a war, and if you cannot muster the weaponry (and manpower), then it's a protest. For a protest to work, you need massive manpower to outnumber the opponent who has the weapons. For war, you need whatever ratio of manpower : weapons required by the weapons. Violence or non-violence are not the sole issue... numbers also matter.
My opinion... you must first put all of this in context. You have to realize this oppression gig has a long deep history aspect to it, it goes back to very beginning, the days of the greedy bastard who always took the most / best meat and beat others back, the bully in the community, the local gangster, the ruler who conquered his neighbors, the warlord who conquered his region or nation, the lunatic who conquered other nations, etc... and this has been haunting humanity since.
Our entire world is constructed out of the residue of these conquests... we the people are the losers, we are the conquered; the oligarchs are the rulers, the ruthless overlords. This trauma is so prevalent, it permeates every aspect and institution in our civilizations and has throughout history. Many of our beliefs and patterns of rationalization, expectations and demands, tolerated conditions, myth structures, cultures, etc are all based on the fact that most of us chose not to fight, chose not to risk our lives, surrendered, acknowledged someone else was more ruthless / powerful / threatening / armed, etc, to the extent that it is what eliminated our real self-esteem and it is what prevents us from really progressing. The cowards among us still warn us not to think too freely (or you may get beaten), not to think out of the box (or someone might notice), not to do things that are provocative (or you may draw attention onto the whole community), not to antagonize the oppressors (try to emulate them because they're obviously successful)... these are the rantings of neurotic psychopaths... and yes, almost all of us are neurotic psychopaths, because we have not been able to reconcile our need for true freedom (thoughts, actions, desires) against the "freedom" we've been allowed (someone else dictates all of the conditions and we oblige).
This pattern / condition has existed so damn long, most people have no clue they're trapped in someone else's nightmare... they think they actually want the limited freedoms that are being provided, that to expect more is just preposterous... get used to your cage, life is much more tolerable when you do, do not think of being outside the cage because only heartache ensues.
So, my solution to this global pandemic psychosis, is that we must raise our courage, all of us, all across the globe, all societies, every single person, to oppose the oligarchs, to show our courage, to have courage, to be willing to die for our freedom, to finally liberate ourselves from the low to no self-esteem / self-defeatist trap, to show ourselves we are not afraid, we are willing to die, so that all of humanity can live in true freedom.
There is a reason they used this exact storyline in the Matrix, when the machines were about to invade Zion, Morpheus gets up on the stage and addresses the citizens, We Are Not Afraid... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5ZWNOm4r2k . There is a reason this is referenced explicitly in Einstein's essay Why Socialism. http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism . You cannot be free until you are not afraid. Once you overcome the demons that have haunted our subconsciouses for so fucking long it's impossible to distinguish between nature / nurture, then you also overcome the need to be a materialist. Add that to freedom, and you have Utopia. That is what people have been writing about for eons, and it is not a fucking pipe dream, it is our destiny. You just have to let go the god damn fear, and take hold of your courage.
So, to answer to the broader question, we must be strong, brave and willing to fight, but we do not need to fight. We must be willing to die, and some likely will, but most will not have to. It is not the act of fighting or dying that frees us, it is simply the real / physical / mental willingness to do so.
Now go out there and fight for everything, not just lower taxes. And for fucks sake, think beyond your limits. Dream a little dream, step out of the cage.
THis is definitely premature in the timeline of everything... people are still far too comfortable, so this will fail... but here.
http://15october.net/
http://15october.net/spread-it/
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/occupy-wall-st-bank-public-interest...
Link to my post with link to Slavoj Zizek speaking at OWS... transcript and videos.
" it is not a fucking pipe dream, it is our destiny." Amen, It's easy to distinguish friend from foe based on their understanding of this simple fact.
Einstein.......was a socialist? OMG
Yes, he was a Socialist and advocated Comunism too. For the right reasons. He saw that the evils of the world are not human nature, they are carefully nurtured and have been indoctrinated since the earliest civilizations.
Brilliant piece above.
How do you control the control freaks, the bullies? It seems that you agree with the idea that people want to be left alone and be free (impossible under socialism/communism). Freedom seems to allows bullies to take control eventually, if history is an indication. Another controlling mechanism is necessary to control the control freaks, right? Let's hear your nutshell version of a better system than America before the Fed, or how you would build onto that provably workable system.
My version of freedom may not be the kind you imagine because you seem to be focused on the Libertain variety.
When you fight next to the rest of humanity, you also eliminate certain aspects of ego, differentiation, self-interest, etc. Next, learn the distinction between Labor / Work / Action (look it up). The best way I know of to achieve true freedom, is to automate the means of production. Get human beings out of as much production as possible, and automate as much as possible, to the point that you have eliminated Labor and Work. That leaves Action, so do not panic. To direct human activity to those tasks which are most fulfilling / meaningfull to humanity. No one is outlawed from doing work, you just won't be required to do as much in the future. The objective here is to get "surplus value" out of production and to make production surplus oriented. Once you provide for everyone's needs or wants, you tend to shift society from materialism to other passions. You may not be able to appreciate or accept this concept, but think about it a lot... we are headed in this direction and soon enough, it will be self-evident that what is being proposed is the best choice.
So you can eliminate much of the nurtured greed, but you cannot eliminate the greed that some are born with by nature. Those individuals will need to be addressed either by activities or some other means, perhaps prison, I don't know yet. We already imprison prople who exhibit excessive greed and societies may not be able to resolve that. When one person places their self-interest above everyone elses, people tend to dislike the outcomes. The point is, if we eliminate the notion of authority / leadership / "government" and other fixed ideas, we limit the potential damage bullies / ruthless people can perpetrate, but that does not mean we eliminate governance. As I've said, I think the best form of governance is self governance... we all participate for a short time (1 year) in government to make sure governance tasks are accomplished. It's like jury duty today. Your name is called up, you go govern for a year, then you return to your Actions. This way, you don't think of leaders, you don't aspire to lead, you don't choose leadership because you can't do anything else... it's just not an option. You eliminate corruption to a great extent because your governing peers are the checks / balances in the system, and if you start acting like a nutjob, the populace can have you withdrawn so that you never govern. It needs work... but the premise is there.
The fact that I don't have an immediate solution for you should not be a reason to dismiss my proposal. I can almost guarantee you no one else has a solution either. It is distasteful to resort to imprisonment for something that is considered "human nature" at present, but it's not like all of society or many in society would ever be imprisoned. The future society will be designed by you and me, in town hall meetings across the globe, so it's no like you won't be able to address the concerns... and the solution is probably something none of us can currently consider. Our minds need to be freer.
I admire your courage Ranger but your suggestions of Communism are going to get a of innocent people killed. Fascism gone global cannot be fought at the Issue level in the 3d pyramid. 'Workers unite!' What we are seeing is the early formation of a new society which derives power from craving conceptual level structures and syndication.
Equality is a concept that is being forced down into the wedge issue of racism STILL and disussed openly by Barrack Obama and Eric Holder.
The people must be reminded of the concepts of truth, freedom and justice constantly and loudly and the people must be asked if this is what they have now. Did they have a society that practices these concepts under Fascism or Communism?
The Marxist will say Communism failed because of corruption. The Capitalist will say the same. Both are right but government types are not a foundation. The foundation is the concept and intent and right now one tiny group of people rule over them both using the concepts of lies, slavery and injustice to rob the majority of people on earth.
Any 'wedge issues' I see promoted such as the division of labor, gay marriage, military industrial complex are purposely absent debate over whether the concepts that created their operational existince are in adhering of God given rights or the polar opposite. Same for all the 'its the Jews' crowd. You have to be the most misled people on earth but the propoganda from the 1880's was clever and syndicated quite successfully to create scapegoats. This last bit coming from a German descendent whose Grandfather was an SS officer.
You need to redesign political, social and economic structures. Communism in Russia / China / Korea was Capitalism in disguise or at best, Fascism if you want to deny it was a side of capitalism... it was a pyramid, mostly without a middle, just bottom and top, and there were rulers who aspired to lead, and they controlled everything. That is not what I ever want to see happen again. No small group has the answers for the masses. But communism does not actually suggest that the Russian / Chinese / Korean form of governance without freedoms is the model. See my suggested alternative just below anyway.
Enough with the Jew propaganda already. We've been eating this steaming pile of crap for far too long.
Exactly. I just posted an expanded response of your net-out comment to Ranger and the audience.
i'm a nonpracticing jew and jesus lover, but i love how the anti-semites consistently blame jews for both
--the interest bearing usurous system which is mostly captured by non-jews but of course, yes there are some very succefful bankers who are jewish, so of course the whole banking system is the fault of the jews,
and when that isn't enough , they blame the jews for being the socialists and communists.
yes, if the jews aren't the roots of capitalist greed, they are the roots of communist control, but regardless they are always at fault for all of your problems, and the solution of course is just to eliminate them or take all their stuff.
if the 'revolution' in the u.s. is going to be succesful in its goals, it needs to violently silence the voices of racism that seek to undermine these goals by introducing the divide and conquer startegies of the powers that be, namely violent racism.
the answer to the problem is to eliminate the time value of money, another words , interest. and the creation of money out of thin air. then you can alleviate most of the financial problems. libya, had their own bank and gaddafi love him or hate, him was doing good things for his people and his country and his bank did not charge interest on loans..........so now he is under duress. gee , i wonder why? i don't think the answer is the gold standard because certain people of a certain cachet (as doctor byrne might say) who run the city of london, own most of the world's gold and its means of production.
hey , hpd, usually you are the racist troll on here, but i'll agree with you on the interest system, in naturally lends itself to abuse. but don't be fooled into thinking that there aren't ways to abuse a system where the benefits of surplus are distributed without a time value attached to them.
but all things equal, i would DEFINITLEY agree with you. ban interest. i find it funny that the islamic banking trend is attempting to recharacterize interest as fees........
you will know the west has conquereed islam culturally, when muslims just change the rules about banning interest.
You have real issues. I am interested in ideas. I am not interested in propagandizing for any race. I am merely providing the cultural paradigm in clear terms. These ideas are subtly embedded in communications, but they are rarely considered. Think it over before you react with your knee jerk.
What is a revolution?
I still say the best way to protest Wall Street is for everyone to call Goldman Sach’s trading desk about 50 times a day and ask if they can direct you to one of the banks they hold (as an approved bank holding company) where you can buy a CD, preferably not one in the Cayman Islands.
I told my Ex that if you do anything...Keep my kid away from crowds...This was about a year-and-half ago after that mall shooting in Minnesota or Missouri I can't remember...The fact of the matter is this...Yea! it really sucks that the banksters are so arrogant and screw us on a daily basis and yes...'things' are getting worse!! But that doesn't mean they necessarily have to suck for you...i know a lot of you out there will be like "that Deleuzian @$$-hole is selfish and all that"...Reach into your 'genetic memory' and do your ancestors a favor...F&cking survive! History is mostly full of failure/death/misery/hunger/disease/war and all the other terrible things we have been educated to overlook...
Is this guy a CIA plant? Is USA getting tenderized for take-orver?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QZlp3eGMNI
what's up with this group repetition crap? why are they doing this?
The police outlawed a PA system or Bullhorns and so the people are forced to use their own voices as a megaphone. The people speaking in unison is the megaphone.
You may notice that the sound amplification system is almost non-existent.
The group repitition is for several reasons.
The message is repeated by the group to spread the words to each other.
The repitition also validates the speaker by reinforcing the speakers words.
All participate in the forming of the movement of the conversation.
All have a chance to speak and be heard.
A far cry from the set-ups on hate driven shows like those on Faux-news.
This is a sample of the kind of grassroots collective consciousness that is being born/generated.
Yes, I like the communication method. Emerging leaders should DEFINATLEY research Open Space research and debate process first built in the late 1980's. Open Space research was developed in response to market research bias and tainted research samples.
i don't know dollar. to me it is totally idiotic, but that is just me. if i was that age, and i was out there, who knows, i might go with the flow too......
This is a mob pure and simple. Look and listen to what they are saying. They have bizarre answers for being there if they have an answer at all. There's no cross section of Americana there just a bunch of 20 year olds who haven't figured out they know nothing. For pete's sake, if you can't say why you are there then you're nothing but a pawn in someone elses game. Wake up!
ah the privileges of youth.........
More democracy, great. More unwashed, self-absorbed, 4chan trolling reds thinking they're in charge. Dictatorship of the proletariat!
In any case, it's an illusion. I would refer you to Malcolm Muggeridges "Winter in Moscow" and the important question therin: Who whom?
government won't allow bullhorns
When you screw things up, you DON'T get to start over,you gotta go to the bottom of the pile, better yet, you get buried beneath the pile of crap you created. VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!
Sometimes the enemy of your enemy is your enemy.
Sure the banks handed out a garbage load overpriced mortgages to these guys who actually elected politicians like Barney Frank, Jimmy Carter that encouraged such madness as "Community Reinvst" in the first place. Still it takes two to dance, does it not? Why did they take on the subprime mortgages to begin with? Why did many people like me refuse to participate?
What can you say about these dead beat parasites electing Nancy Pelosi to offer them backdoor easy housing only to find themselves trapped in an overpriced underwater mortgage prison? How about karma?
And now these "99%" occupiers are upset, huh? Let's see why. Hmmm, oh yeah that's right they are pissed off b/c only bankers are bailed out while these dead-beats are not. How unfair?! Let's go back to taxpapers to take more money for the deadbeats as well. Great!!
For f***'s sake if anyone deserves to throw a protest it should be the taxpayers against these MFing bankers and deadbeats that contribute nothing while trying every gimmick to rig the system for own benefits.
I am sad that so many here repeat the media mantra about the 99% being a bunch of loser hippies. I thought the people here were more enlightened than that. Where is MARLA SINGER when you need her to school these forums like she used to? If she were here, she might remind you that one of the points of zh is to expose the badly broken system. Which is all the osw message is. I am worried that the zh community is changing and not for the better. What a bunch of fearful selfish trolls.
Yeah on friday, this "hippie" and his buddy left for the OWS march from the same 13 & G st law office exited 2 years ago when we supported Ron Paul. I think I was a hippie for that one too.
See: "Projection"
Airing your poor sense of self-worth on ZH is a bit personal.
OWS is a result of 16% of the real economy being under the control of the parasitic "Financial" industry.
And, the greedy fucks want more - always, more. We've devolved as a country into a plutocracy. We are no longer a meritocracy. It's who you know and, who you blow. This is not the path to a rosey national future to be enjoyed by a majority of Americans.
I just want to point out that the dollar has not devalued 95% of it's purchasing power. If you go from 1903, when the first debasement occured, it's actually 98.1% as of the first week of August 2011.
Just wanted to point that out.
I'm a bit concerned at the laundry list of demands from all sorts of radical groups at these protests. None of them seem to know much about the FED, how it corrupts, and the shareholders behind it. The protesters should be focussing on the economy, and solutions such as Gold Standards, Moving away from Globalization and criminally charging the individuals who have worked together for their own benefit, corrupting Washington in the process.
Read:
http://www.wix.com/andrewcostell3/simple-wealth-book
Say my fucking name, says Michael Ruppert.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp_-pdqigXo
cut the shit and watch from 24 min.
just who is that guy anyway?
HPD:
I hope you are just being sarcastic.
If you have no idea who Michael Ruppert is and all the amazing work he has done for many decades now, you are one ignorant man.
I would expect much more from someone like you. A person who has been shooting his mouth off so much and so often on ZH for over a year now.
Please do some homework and get back to ZH with what you have learned.
Here is a start.
www.mikeruppert.blogspot.com/
the question was rhetorical. of course. i really have no use for him or his ideas.......but to each his own right?
Former L.A. cop who first became known for outing CIA drug running.
The problem is that we had systemic changes in 1867 and 1913. America ceased to exist, long ago. At this point, the public doesn't have the stomach to return to a system of just weights and measures. People are as dependent on corruption as the government. Think of wealth as the ball. Banks, Corporations and Bureaucrats play "Keep Away". For all the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth in the streets, the public will never touch the ball. They jump from one frying pan to another, staying until that burns them.
http://georgesblogforum.wordpress.com/2011/09/25/petition-for-redress-of...
They already built the wall along the border in the south, now they're building one along the north. Guess what? The lid of the boiling pot will soon be closed tightly and those frogs will be amused to death.
OWS is just SEIU/ACORN/Move On.org and other Soros/Obama puppets.
you mentioned that earlier
this guy---great video from a protester being interviewed by fox news. and fox, of course, didn't air this interview.
http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/270201/detail/
Caught this. Big points for running a shot glass off the eye of any MSM reporter.
However, he's dead wrong about Solyndra being a sideshow. On the contrary, the Obama Administration's role in that debacle exemplifies crony capitalism and the systematic looting operation that is preventing real capitalism from stomping the guts out of Lloyd & Co. and letting the rest of us get on with it.
is he typical? God help us...
dup nevermind.