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Occupy Wall St – Systemic Change Please
Michael Hudson explains why the OWSers are not making specific, piecemeal-demands. He also discusses a public option in banking as a structural answer to the power of finance. Wild guess - many here may agree with some of Michael's assessments, but take issue with his public option proposal. ~ Ilene
Occupy Wall St. to a Bank in the Public Interest
Courtesy of Michael Hudson
Michael discusses the growing Occupy Wall St movement and the opportunities for banking reform.
Excerpt (paraphrasing Michael slightly):
I think it’s a very strong point that they haven’t made specific demands… Their worry is that if they make specific demands, then the media and other people will make these particular demands the issue. That’s not the issue. The sense is that the financial system is dysfunctional as a system. That means that you can’t make a technocratic demand like “fix this,” or give a consumer protection law, or appoint Elizabeth Warren to the commission.
It’s much bigger than that. There’s an awareness that the whole financial system is dysfunctional… The government is in the hands of the financial lobbyists. That’s why it’s called Occupy Wall Street, because [Wall Street] essentially bought the electoral campaigns and bought the Obama administration. And I can tell you that there was an absolute disgust yesterday and today after Mr. Obama’s attempt to hijack the Occupy Wall Street demonstration by saying “here’s what I’m trying to do to help,” and then he gave a couple of lobbying statements written by his Wall Street financial lobbies…
They’re disgusted with the Obama administration, they’re disgusted with the Bush administration and the republicans, they’re disgusted with politics being for sale to the highest lobbyists. And they’re disgusted with the debt overhead… The system doesn’t work, and they don’t want to reduce this to a set of technocratic little fix its and paste-its.
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You are exactly correct. It has been going on since the Roman Empire. Economic systems fail when fewer and fewer produce useful products in the economy. The few producing useful things are viewed more and more as criminals because they end up being the wealthiest. The Roman empire fell when only the farmers produced value and owned real assets. Non-producers occupied the cities and received free stuff from the government. Before the Roman Empire fell there was even free entertainment to keep the masses peaceful.
Not much changes in history. The only solution is for people to get excited about the opportunities freedom offers to start small businesses and create jobs. This takes a lot of work and it is not accomplished by whining about who has what and whining because I'm not getting my fair share of this that or the other. Small business creators don't whine. They work. Real hard.
Wrong. The Romans failed because they stretched their sphere of influence too far until they needed to depend on mercenaries from the Germanic tribes to fight for them. They lost their cities because the "barbarians" doing their gruntwork got violent.
They better be very small businesses...so small they don't need a bankloan, in fact. It's too bad we can't find a pile of $1.6T somewhere to fund the creation of some private sector jobs. Ironic someone with that name who recently passed should be lauded so...when he was sitting on a $25B pile if iBucks and not-so-much creating jobs either.
I guess they're too busy lobbying politicians to make sure they can reptriate all the money they made shipping our jobs overseas to get back to HR or something.
Most of the "non-producers" on foodstamps these days were, until quite recently, putting up drywall, building cars, teaching kids, laying brick, and any number of things I'm 100% sure you pay other people to do because you're weaker than them. I might note that the real "non-producers" (Joe Cassano, John/Hank Paulson, and Orangello Mozillo), for the most part, kept their jobs...except Thain, who had to sit in the penalty box for a couple months before taking another CEO position at a company dumb enough to hire a felon and shitty business steward. Most of those who were responsible for the economic crisis in 2008 got bonuses and have served a curiously short amount of jailtime for their very obvious misdeeds.
Now...who do you think these small businesses will be selling to, exactly? I don't know if you've happened to notice that we're in a depression and that magic piece of the business puzzle, customers, are in exceedingly short supply?
Free to starve. Quite the awesome proposition you've put out there for people who work real hard.
And anyone lucky enough to be running a succcessful small business in this economy, is certainly not pulling down so much scratch that a tax of $500k of profit is really going to affect more than 2% of the companies in the US (and a smaller percentage still...of "small" businesses).
Do you support the SBA and gov-backed/surety-bonded/etc finanace for businesses? Or is that just more "free stuff from the government"?
Would you support a bill to provide tax reductions for job creation at the small business level only?
Yes! And that is why the "turning Japanese" meme is total eCON bullshit.
Just yesterday Paul Solman on PBS Newshour was again flying the turning-Japanese BS idea but he never even tries to explain where the GLOBAL DEMAND is going to come from, to sustain even a stagnant GLOBAL economy? Chinese domestic consumption is weak as hell, as low as 39% of GDP, compared to US 71%
(with 40% of the US GDP and ~4 times the US population ... these chinese do NOT shoppe!!!).
They are not going to be taking up the demand slack.
We'd need faster than light drives and an interstellar trade network to keep global demand and global trade from nose diving.
No one in the MSM is prepared yet to accept (or plainly state) that it is indeed going to nose dive, that stagnation isn't even viable anymore.
It's interesting that the Chinese can't say "Go Shopping!" (or the Mandarin equivalent) when the bulk of the working class can't even afford cooking oil and pork on a regular basis, while Americans are flooded with cheap crap they aren't allowed to build. Someone might think there's a way to gear this global trade nonsense so that Chinese prices can come up, workers there can get paid enough to support manufacturing in the US, the third world can buy microwaves, and we can all move on up together, but that would require a tiny percentage of bondholders (pension plans, governments, etc ad nauseam) to go skinhead w/ haircuts and forgiveness, plus a legal 'do over' on CDS to prevent oblivion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA5MtAmT24g
Don't be startin' shit snowy ... The Donna ... is all over that shit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IdEhvuNxV8&feature=player_detailpage
The roman empire failed when the rate of inputs injection dropped. Roman Empire was based on expansion.
Work consumes resources. You do not need to work to be rich. You do not need to produce. You need to own.
There is not enough resources for that small businesses, job creation fantaisy.
US citizens consume much more than others for the same labour output.
Etc...
All this to state that life is going to be hard for locals as the next wave of colonization is growing.
This time, the land has been already depleted from their resources and US citizens are full of false ideas, mainly that they entitle to anything and everything, locals'life is going to turn extremelly harsh at the hands of US citizens. And this poster is a perfect example. Wrong ideas, unable to cope with the fact that the US is not corrupted, that the US has not changed one bit, that the US is functioning as it functioned.
Nothing wrong with the US systemics. They work as intended from the beginning.
Noticeably, US citizens never wanted to cope with the negative consequences of their actions.
Take a casual example: soda drinks. Full of sugar, they make people fat.
US citizens wanted to drink a lot of them but did not want to get fat drinking them.
So here's the famous US sense of innovation: they added to substitute sugar with other stuff so that US citizens could drink even more.
Troubles is that the new elements are also dangerous for health and in a way worse and more expensive than obesity.
The very simple solution of consuming less soda drinks was discounted.
Future is going to be grim for billions in the US world order.
Ahh, An Anonymous. My favorite troll bitch to abuse. The anglo empire is disintegrating and this was a feature to mandrake to China, not a bug. The EU is now the monkey in the middle of the game as expected. I am done playing the mandrake game.
What is collapsing is the global finance system in its entirety and this was not actually 'the plan' from what I understand.
The US and EU are half-dead engines and China is half-built. War will come as these agents now jockey back and forth to gain China) or regain (Anglo) control of the currency peg prize.
Sadly we are just like Rome. The leaders became worse as the end got closer. Witness the Kenyan usurper.
Leaders have little to do.
US citizens cant cope with the negative consequences of their actions.
What is going is simple and was known beforehand: it is a traditional stage in any expansionist scheme, it is what happens when you no longer expand fast enough to support the expansionist scheme you have developed.
It was known beforehand because it is nothing new. And the US tried to solve the issue the expansionists' way: by more expansion.
Space was supposed to be the new West, space boundaries the new frontiers to pioneer, exactly as US citizens had pioneered the Indian frontiers to expand and grow.
Leaders have nothing to do with that. The choice was a popular one in the US. But US citizens can not cope with the negative consequences of their actions.
They display exactly the very same reaction as previous expansionists in the same case.
Expansionists when expansion stalls reject that the main trouble is that expansion is slowing down.
They invented causes elsewhere: cultural causes, they have lost their values, their culture and genetic causes, the genetic stock has deteriorated.
Funnily enough, in roman times, as they wanted to keep control of capital through marriages, commonly, the accusation lied on too much inbreeding, incestuous whoreson was a classical insult. Bit of a change from today.
But what, US citizens will always reject the cause at work: end of the expansion.
sheepdie, I have to say that your comments are among the most insightful and profound that I have read not only on the OWS theme but the human condition. I was particluarly interested in your use of the word 'abomination' to describe OWS. Please do elaborate.
Thanks
Translation of the Earl of Shitwink: "I am most interested in how the rest of society should die-off so I can falsely believe I can live without stewards and servants of my estate. Further, tell me how quickly the die-off can come so I can get back to leverage games so I can continue pretending my rule of laziness will go on forever. Please write me at MalthusWasRight@Propoganda.org ASAP. Thanks!
abomination [??b?m??ne???n]
n1. a person or thing that is disgusting 2. an action that is vicious, vile, etc. 3. intense loathing
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
1. The free lunch borrowers that have lived off of welfare and abused credit are rebelling against those that provided that welfare, credit, etc. The free lunch borrowers are disgusting.
2. The action of denying the true root cause; which is a redundant class. Yes, a class of worker (or non worker) that does not actually produce anything or add net value to society, and then protests against those that produce - that is a vicious and vile action. Note that the majority of the protesters are protesting against corporations, and those that make a certain amount of money. They are not protesting against criminals, fraudsters, ... if that were the case, my position would be different.
3. No comment required.
The dichotomy producers/non producers is shallow.
The issue is one of consumption. Production is consumption.
They are people who consume much and people who consume much less.
1. a person or thing that is disgusting 2. an action that is vicious, vile, etc. 3. intense loathing -- example, diesheepledie
I think it is chapter 4, where you will find commentary about what is going on. The book? The Coming Insurrection.
http://tarnac9.wordpress.com/texts/the-coming-insurrection/
The Coming Insurrection -- A great modern day Marxist manual for direct action and unconventional revolution. They have been planning this occupation for a long time. This might not be the real deal, but they have been laying the groundwork for decades. They will use this occupation movement as a training exercise and a recruiting opportunity. The real deal is going to need a greater crisis than what we've got right now; think major attack on US soil, sustained food shortages, $7.50/gallon of gas, or 20% unemployment. Keep your eyes on Washington DC, and abroad; not NYC.
Froggy pomo claptrap. Except for the part about the drone and TPTB assuring les sans culottes that it "wasn't armed". Uh-oh.
That was a good read. Thanks.
God bless the protestors.
The protestors and the bankers aren't much different, both parasites. Neither contribute to society, both leaching off the producers. The bankers are few and suck big, the protestors are many and cumulatively suck up just as much. Only solution is eradicate 80 percent or so of the government. No more socialized risk backstops for the TBTF banks, let them fail and rebuild around local credit unions. Stop food stamps, college loans and welfare to perfectly able 20 year olds that are too lazy and entitled to get a job and work their way through college, maybe then a college education would be worth something again.
When reading US citizens, one might sometimes think they are sincere and such deluded.
But they are duplicitous at heart. So what?
The producers story was a good one when expanding on indian land(the land belongs to who works it) but it is now extremelly counterproductive.
It is a crisis of overconsumption. Value changes side: conserving is valuable while consuming is much less.
Extremelly rich people conserve because they do not generate much aggregated demand.
Poor people conserve because they can not consume, they lack the social means to consumption.
Remains the US middle class and their fantaisy about the producer class. The US middle as such is non sustainable. Rich and poor are.
God Bless the protestors". They don't believe in God genius!
"They don't believe in God..!"
Maybe God believes in them
How the fuck do you know? I haven't seen you at Liberty Plaza? As much as I deplore it, there are many religious people at the rally. They continually remind everyone to be thankful to GOD for the opportunity we have to protest. Yes indeed.
To the enlightened one who down ranked me... remember that Atheists / Agnostics do not go around evangelizing about the wondrousness of the lack of god, or their disbelief in a higher being. They just live their lives. So please stop running around praising the presence of a higher being. You're welcome to worship whatever you want, do not shove it in my face. I will shove back.
1. Who is shoving anything? Aside from the once or twice yearly knock from someone at the door offering to share something with you? Most people do not live under any kind of religious duress in predominantly Christian countries. Compare the mild and subtle attempts at religious indoctrination to the relentless pounding of consumerism and political propaganda.
2. No, you're not leaving everyone else alone. Your notion of reality crowns man as king of all, and accountable to no one, and lots of mischief follows. Where your philosophy has been central to a governing body, people are just grist for the mill.
3. All of the coercive power in society is held by godless institutions. People who believe in a Creator cannot compel you to do anything. And it was people with a belief in a creator who set up that system of non-coercion.
4. It's amazing that people who insist on hard money - which affects most, but not all of our lives - are willing to create their own moral currency, something that affects every aspect of their lives.
5. Scientists now believe (wiki) that the universe began as, "a singularity, of zero volume and infinite density."
6. The current alternative to a Creator, string theory, can only be verified from oustide the universe, so it will probably remain an article of faith. And in order to be forever creating new universes, the theory requires an infinite, eternal energy source (that's a bare bones definition of God). So this is the current logic of naturalism: Dead matter chanced its way into beings that can create tiny black holes inside massive supercolliders, but an eternal energy capable of generating entire universes could never have or develop intellect.
glad to see ya made it back in one piece, ranger...
i was seriously worried about you guys..
well, you just ruck up, and drive on...
+1 to ranger
Thank you... read my newest post down at the bottom of this article.
By the way, just to clarify, Ranger is not from being in the military... I almost joined the military, but I'm not one for orders from anyone so I thought it best not to do that to anyone. Ranger is derived from stRanger and the police Ranger, since I tend to be aloof and I tend to demand appropriateness, so I "police" other people into being considerate / civilized. I didn't even recall it could have been associated with a real persona like the Rangers, until it was too late.
I assume you're alias refers to ex infantry captain. Thank you for your service to our world. I hope the world can repay you in kind some day. Again, see last post. :)
Sorry man. You well meaning types that make some
good populist viewpoints while advocating Marxism are the last people that should be hired to 'police' anything. Communism and Fascism are identical in practice.
Besides mankind already tried to frame the debate into these two camps and it got 100 M people killed while the puupetmasters pulled the strings above both camps. You are either ignorant or purposely disingenerous. Which is it Mr. Policeman?
never served, hmmm....
then what do you think your doing now...think about it...
your fighting for what you believe in, theres nothin' wrong with that...
as i said,...drive on
hehe... touche,
I know I'm fighting... I've always been fighting, just wanted to make it clear it wasn't inside the military. :)
take care.
Like ExInfCapt, I assumed your 'Ranger' moniker made you one of us grunts.
Grunts operate outside the boundries, foresaking the security of the garrison....willing to sacrifice personal safety and comfort for what is perceived to be the greater good.
You have that Ranger spirit. Carry on.
In 2 weeks, I will be in NY on business, and have arranged my schedule to allow time to do my persoanl recon patrol on Wall Street. Spreading the ZH message will be my main goal.
....and thanks for the post, Ilene. Systemic change IS THE ISSUE.
you be careful down there, 'platoon daddy'....
things could go western real fast...
Could be that a lot of people's belief in "God" is a lot more sophisticated than just accepting and regurgitating what has been handed down to them from the sheeple, and wolves in sheeps clothing, of centuries gone by....
You are right, we are all standing fast against the enemy. Some know the true lack of foundation. I have been among these crowds before and I know how much more informed people are now because of our new instant reality of being able to confirm what has happened. We can bring up the numbers and stats on the net. At this point everything is being exposed and that is The Truth, which has not changed, it is just the revelation coming to bare wiitness against all enemies of The Truth. There is no escaping by political party or denominational claims, and certainly there is no escape for the criminals that have established the new global market corruption and mark of debt, they have been sealed by their false claim. What is now happening is the great awakening and sealing of people that accept the mark of the beast, or what the corruption has to offer, as a final solution to the crisis that has been created through systemic corruption and from the evil elite. If you know or are of faith, this is prophetic. If you do not have faith, or you do not know mercy, as the foundation of our Father in Christ, but you understand the deception and lies upon us, you have no point in the end, you are acting to preserve labor, which is good, it is not perfect or meaningful for you beyond your own claim and end. Labor pain shall end in your death, or if it were possible before that. Truth is equal with life eternal, which cannot ''change''. The war at hand is to overcome the lie, which is, you shall not fail or surely die if you accept corruption. This is the core reality of the occupation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-XC3zYZ0BU&feature=related
Uhh.........good luck with alll that
Raphio, prophecy is void of luck. The corruption at hand has sealed the future, history confirms this. Only a moron or an ignorant person would offer ''luck'' in a market which is devouring the principle rate of return required to sustain the future. What you are saying is, your good fortune exists because of Chairsatan's moral hazard. In short, you are looking into the mirror and saying eat me. Lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3jnFtSElH4&feature=player_embedded
Holland and Houston Texas will be the first places the chip will be offered. The death sentence for those that take the mark has a scientific process behind it. When this tool is more widely rejected and fails the people that accept it will have medical side effects of its flawed design which will poison them. This is an economic board so I opine little of religion.
As mentioned, more important than a name of a religion is the operational concepts at which they started. Both Christianity and Islam promote revenge as an acceptable conceptual construct but more Islam. The works these religions produce is indicative of their foundations.
...so you are an Antichrist and you are enjoying these market gains. Can't say it's a pleasure to meet you Chairsatan.
I can think of 3 specific demands that fit in perfectly with OWS:
1) End the Fed.
2) Disentangle Wall Street from the 3 branches of govt.
3) Put restrictions and preconditions around acts of war that (i.e., must require an act of congress.)
Works for me.
You only need to to do first (end the fed) to accomplish the other two admirable actions you suggest. Without a privately owned anticompetitive banking cartel (the FED) with unlimited powers to protect them, BAC, GS, MS etc would rapidly cease to exist as would all government borrowing beyond available revenues, and thus all useless wars and foreign adventures and nanny state social welfare programs meant to create dependency and reduce freedom.
So, everyone, elect Ron Paul and end the FED. That's all that's needed. Creative destruction of parasitic institutions, no longer protected by the government will rapidly ensue and we will move closer to "capitalism, that unknown ideal". Government will be very limited, as intended by the founders.
+ Fraud = Jail time (rather than paying a petty fine, which incentivizes corporations to corupt government)
All 3 work for me as well, but the OWS people on the street have no idea what the federal reserve is and what it does. They do not know where money comes from, how the supply is manipulated to rob the masses, or even that 2/3 of printed money comes from private banks in our fractional reserve banking system.
Most OWS street people think they are "out of the market" by holding savings in cash.
Most don't have any savings and very little cash. That is what finally drives them into the street, and the numbers grow dailey.
This country is reaching a tipping point in income disparity that wil light the fuse that will blow up the system. America worked so well for so long because of the more level playing field, and the opportunity for a vast middle class to live a decent life in a bountiful country. Strip that away, and watch out status quo.
You obviously didn't attend the DC rally today. Or any day. Didn't see the large End the Fed signs, or the "Don't Blame Me I voted for Ron Paul" t's, or the cool sign this rather cute chick was holding... hang on let me check my camera... it says "There are LAZY people getting handouts, they are sitting in FANCY offices collecting BILLIONS"... - its almost as if she made the sign to specifically address your own hypocrisy.
Or the booth in Freedom Plaza specifically about the Federal Reserve... "None are more hopelessly enslaved then those who falsely believe they are free" - another nice nearby sign.
But the anger is broad... And NOT ONE Obama sign ANYWHERE. The ONLY time Obama was mentioned were in signs that read "O-Bomb-A" or "Bush and Obama should be bunkmates"... Free Zeitgeist movie CD's, I believe Addendum addresses SPECIFICALLY the Federal Reserve and Money Creation" Did I say those were free? Or the soldiers that were there, the retired Colonel, the vets, the Ron Paul kids from GW, and YES, some union boys from Wisconsin as well as an anarchist or three... I mention these last two just to make sure you DO stay at home. We wouldn't want you to show up and actually have a FUCKING DISCUSSION with a fellow UPSET AMERICAN...
Or the Big Replica Drone that was dragged down to help "showcase" the new Drone Display in the Air & Space. No, Security didn't let the display inside... Yes, there was pepper spray. Look it up. Have that scene on my camera as well.
You probably didn't see all the cars honking or "thumbs up" from the drivers, the cheers and support from tourists, or how many people just joined in... from all walks of life and I could care less if they don't fit in your REPEATED armchair analysis of "what a proper corruption protest should look like"
Honestly, after two days out there and SPENDING THE NIGHT purely because I WANTED TO, and speaking with many people... some I probably would never have the pleasure otherwise, I'm here to report that most of the discussions I had were with intelligent people who hated media, would vote for Ron Paul, Ralph Nader, suspend elections and let states and munis run things 'till 'whatever' happens (actually enjoyed that discussion), were not nearly as naive as you, and have a greater understanding as to the level of corruption around us, than you...
Your relentless and continued ridiculous comments, ie "the OWS people on the street have no idea what the federal reserve is and what it does" reminds me of a couple years back when, contrary to other low cred comments, I found the Tea Partiers not to be racist uneducated rednecks... Quite the contrary.
Rock on
+1, but forget the Zeitgeist. Peter Joseph is collectivist in the worst sense - he'd impose his idea of a sane reality on the rest of us. He understands the evils of fiat and correctly sees a diminishing need for human labor in its present form/uses, but doesn't credit an unrigged system with the ability to find work of some kind for all who are willing. But it shouldn't be about finding a full work week for everyone. In a free money system, we'd probably have to work about ten hours/week to get by. The baubles, extra savings etc. should come out of additional hours. And if we can kill the fiat system, that will free up millions of brilliant minds for creative endeavors - people who are presently plugged into maintaining or profiting from fiat.
Zeitgeist is not a threat and it's not the only possibility, but it is a mind opening exploration into the possibilities. It's thinking outside the box, and it requires you to as well. It serves a great purpose, whether you adhere to its principles or not.
...which brings up another point. The fascism brought upon us by corporate oligarchy and the federal reserve was widely understood. THAT was the message. And the level of awareness was impressive, and exciting. The solutions, like zeitgeist, are as varied as the people. But lets hope we actually end up having that problem - of actually solving it.
Thanks for the scoop from the groundswell, TH.
Stay safe....or not. ;)
"...The third step is/will be to get past the (often petty) differences and find the common ground around which to build consensus for an alternative to the status quo..."
I forget the asshole on here who said that to me one time ;)