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Protest Demands: Experts Say They’re Not Necessary, Despite Media Whining
Preface: The Occupy Wall Street protests certainly face challenges. The two main challenges being: (1) An attempt by both the Democratic and Republican parties to co-opt it (see this, this and this); and (2) agents provocateur (see this, this and this).
But – as demonstrated below – failing to have a set list of demands is not one of them.
The mainstream media’s attempt to smear the Wall Street protests because there’s no set list of demands has failed:
- Nobel prize winning economists support it. If they support it, the protests must have some real meaning and substantiality, even without a set list of demands
- Indeed, Nobel economist Paul Krugman says that complaining about the protests is just panic by the “plutocrats that people will start asking how they made their fraudulently-earned gains
- Pimco CEO El-Erian (more than a trillion dollars under management) says that the protest is valid – just like the protest in Egypt – even without any demands
- Prominent economist Michael Hudson says when the entire financial system is corrupt and broken, demanding a few technocratic fixes isn’t what’s called for
- Former Wall Street executive Richard Eskow says that specific demands would just empower the bankers, but that the protesters want justice and prosecution of Wall Street fraud
- A P.R. professional says that the mainstream media’s ridicule of the protests for failing to have a specific list of demands is a dishonest tactic
- Pulitzer prize winning reporter Chris Hedges slams the media, saying that everyone knows what the protesters want
- Cultural icon Russel Simmons says that everyone knows what the protesters want – they want Wall Street money to stop dominating politics, so the people’s will control
- And Yves Smith writes:
I’m fascinated by how many political operatives seem keen to tell the participants in OccupyWallStreet that they are doing lots of things wrong, and really should shape up and follow traditional lines, like issuing demands and seeking to apply pressure in more conventional ways. Given that the movement is getting lots of free and mainly favorable PR and is mushrooming all over the US, there does not seem to be a lot of empirical support for this view.
As numerous readers have pointed out, and the folks in Zuccotti Park recognize all too well, using those strategies now would play into the hands of the existing power structure. Per Richard Kline:
What I found disconcerting about the media’s quest to find the demands motivating the Occupiers was just that single word, ‘demands.’ That together with the rapidity of the media’s insistence that there must be demands. By itself it said everything about the media strategy anti-occupation while also ignoring the substantive statements of individuals at the occupations and the process of the occupations. ‘Demands’ are what disgruntled extremists ‘agitate’ for, in common, anti-popular media presentation of the last twenty years. Demands for ‘special’ pay; demands for ‘special’ treatment. Demands for ‘scapegoats’ to be dragged expensively into court. Demands for ‘acknowledgment’ from the politicos ‘at the top.’ You know: labor ‘demands,’ and all that stuff. The point was/is if demands can be elicited, than those in the occupation _must_ be agitators, which means that they must be malcontents, which means that they must be ‘unrepresentative,’ which means that they must be selfish interests; bums looking for handouts and blood, because that’s who the media presents as having ‘demands’ rather than ‘negotiating’ stances, or operational ‘missions’ like Serious People.
What the occupiers have had are questions. “Why aren’t there indictments for fraud and worse?” “Why are we firing nurses and teachers when corporate profits will hit a RECORD this year?” “Why to the richest pay no tax while state and local governments are crushed with debt?” “Why does the Beltway do absolutely nothing about employment?” “Why have student grants disappeared to be replaced by predatory loans without which we cannot get the education employers and the System demand from us?” These questions may _become_ demands, but they aren’t, yet. They, and most of the rest of us 99%, would realy like to have answers. But the media have done everything possible to _exclude_ questions of this kind, to push them to small, late, interior paragraphs in turgid pabalum articles and to exclude them from the broadcast media altogether.
The most visible controversy has surrounded “what do these people want?” As we’ve argued, “We are the 99%” more than suffices as a high level answer. It is a VERY powerful message. It says “We don’t need to negotiate. This is our country and we want it back from the top 1% which has been selling us out.” The 1% know damned well what the 99% want, which is a more just society. If you forced any 10 in the top 1% of them to make a list of 10 things they thought the other 99% wanted, I guarantee you’d have no more than 16 real issues among the 100 answers you’d get in total. And I strongly suspect the 99% would agree or at most restate them.
But the second source of orthodox consternation is the notion that there has to be a conventional hierarchical structure in place for an effort like this to succeed. The media and the officialdom seem flummoxed by the lack of obvious leaders and official spokesmen.
OWS is an experiment in something more akin to direct democracy and it explicitly places the wishes and needs of the community first. If nothing else it is exercising muscles that have atrophied badly in American discourse.
There seem to be some tacit assumptions in the reactions against the leisurely -looking process of community and consensus building at work in Zuccotti Square and other Occupy gatherings. One is that direct democracy doesn’t scale. There is some truth to that observation. Ancient Athens had 60,000 citizens at its peak.
But the fallacy here is that “not A” which is “not pure democracy” implies that the only alternative is B, which is something like our current way of doing politics. “Not A” is simply “not A”, and there are quite a few successful models which have far more participation by and accountability to a broad community than found in our current social/political arrangements where real influence is concentrated in a very few hands.
One that OWS has invoked is the open source model. Note that large scale open source programs are not lacking in organization; Linus Torvalds was the clear leader of Linux development and had a cohort of lieutenants under him. But this was an ambitious undertaking that was otherwise very informal.
One of the reasons it worked was that there were shared norms as to what good outcomes were, and that members of the community felt they gained something by making contributions that were recognized and valued by their peers. It’s worth stressing that: you had a large group that worked on the potlatch model, where being rewarded via accolades from your peer group was highly motivating. By contrast, the widespread assumption among the elites, that only money is motivating and everyone ultimately can be bought.
The community in Zuccotti Park seems to be building some foundations along these lines. People contribute because they feel it is inherently worthwhile to add a plank to something that will be much bigger. And the elaborate General Assembly process may well be building a set of new shared norms and values on the foundation of the obvious injustice of widespread, unpunished looting by the banks and the failure of the political elites to be responsive to the needs of ordinary citizens. It took the populist movement of 19th century over 15 years of organizing against the injustice of the debtcropper system for it to become a potent political force. If OWS can accomplish something like that in six months or even two years, that’s rapid by historical standards.
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They should put women in charge. Have them all stand around with signs. You should KNOW why we are mad.
Nobody expects the estrogen iquisition.
What a joke of a protest movement. Here's a little levity. A conversation with a OWS protester.
OWS person: We are protesting!
Sane person: Against what?
OWS: We aren't going to tell you that. Do you think we are dumb?
Sane: So why are you loitering in the park for 3 weeks?
OWS: Because we are the 99% and we are mad.
SAne: Are you saying 99% of Americans are mad at Wall Street?
OWS: Yes.
Sane: Where are 99% of 401k's and other investments invested? Are the markets up?
OWS: Hmmmm. Not sure.
Sane: Who makes the laws that Wall Street follows?
OWS: Washington! That's the problem, these Wall Street guys are paying Washington for their favors.
SAne: So one group is offering another money for favors. Do the politicians accept the deal? Who is more guilty?
OWS: Wall Street!
Sane: Do you get to run out of office your reps if they don't behave like you expect?
OWS: Yes, but what's your point?
Sane person walks away rubbing their temples.
You're a frikking genious as long as you are allowed to project your enemies arguements onto a cave wall with fire.
You should join hollywood. I hear they have movies about justice they sell to people for 12 bucks to watch.
One hand washes the other -- which is more dirty?
"The Creature From Jekyll Island, a Second Look at the Federal System", 5th Ed., G. Edward Griffin, ISBN: 978-0-912986-45-6
"The Dirty Dozen, How Twelve Supreme Court Cases Radically Expanded Government and Eroded Freedom" ISBN: 978-1-935308-27-0
"Dreams Come Due, Government and Economics as if Freedom Mattered", ISBN: 0-671-61159-3, by John Galt
The book is dated, but many of the things it talks about are still valid today.
After you get edumacated, please return and explain how to condense all yer learnin' into some MSM sound-bites, either that, or: STOP looking for fish in the treetops!
There are experts in protesting?
We are entering an extraordinarily dangerous period and I am very, very concerned about it.
This event is just a warm up for what's coming. Despite a few anarchists and the like in this movement, the majority are everyday people, young and old who are disillusioned with what has gone on. Big money has highjacked the political process and people are feeling powerless.
The summer of love was a collection of people just coming together... and look what happened within 36 months regarding the swarming masses that opposed the Vietnam War. Don't dismiss this crowd... it's just a dress rehearsal for what's to come.
I have a keen interest in language and its use and we are only starting to understand the power of psychic leakage in the language that we use day in, day out. I am starting to see some disturbing patterns in the language being used by the MSM. There is now open discussion of social collapse, revolution. We are living in a period of hyper-intensity. Stock markets move 400 points and it's no big deal. Everyone knows that Wall Street is a rigged game and as the naked truth is now being exposed, there is an inevitability that is emerging about the future and it ain't pretty.
Also consider the Jack Bower phenomena in 48 hours and the effect that it had on getting the American population use to the prospect of a black President. Now consider the power that the History Channel has had on people regarding the end of the world circus... the endless Mayan stories, the life after humans episodes, etc... Don't think for a moment that there is no relationship between language and the future. If enough people believe that something is coming... then it's as good as already upon us.
<not associated with the webbot people>
"As ye believe, so is it done unto ye."
The diversification of risk into the value market place has seeming left the gambits and gambles of the major banking fraternities on the shoulders of every nations' taxpayer. It is evident that the bankers have assumed risk by investing in the common folk, who through their ignorance or lack of desire-for-success have defaulted on the credit that was given to them. We give kudos, or credit to those people who have performed exceptionally well. I give Nikolai Tesla credit for creating the modern electrical era. Although he literally single-handedly created the world we live in today by his invention of AC current, he was short shrifted by those people who underwrote the process whereby he was enable to create. Nikola Tesla was a TRULY GREAT man, whose genius and vision surpassed that of his financial better-offs, who were yet enabled to the lions' share of profits because Tesla had no interest in organizing the common society. The creator capitalists that Ayn Rand envisioned in her novels have yet to arrive. The men and women who understand both the physical and emotional, or social, will be the true powerhouses and mighty forging forces that hammer-out tomorrow's days.
The disgruntled masses hovering on Wall Street, the so-called Occupy movements, have fallen on hard times due to both their own actions and the actions of their creditors. The body politic either could not understand the contracts they were signing, or they refused to read them. The first is excusable, the second is not. The bankers enabled an addict; they were peddling the addiction of selling-out the future for Consumption Now. They provided that service in return for the expectation that people would make good on that promise to produce adequate value in the future to at least make up for what they are consuming today with the credit they had been granted. Did the common go out and buy capital goods, even if only meagre ones? Was their consumption oriented towards future production? NO! it was not. The bankers and the commons are BOTH guilty of the predicament that we find ourselves.
Only through polymathematics will we wake to a brighter tomorrow.
Who wants to educate the Occupy _ peoples, who have been failed by the US school/nursery system?
tick... tock...
I endured Sith Lord Richard Haas on Morning Joe decrying the lack of "points" that the OWS folks had, since in his mind if you don't have a list of points to make fun of in a hypocritical, arrogant fashion, you're simply not playing the game properly and are to be ignored. What a clueless dickhead, as befits his role as the President of the Council on Foreign Relations, a group of party apparatchiks for the NWO if there ever was one.
And since we're talking about media talking points, since that is allthe complaints about OWS are - not original thinking on the part of the speakers - if I hear one more talking head babbling how we need to get rid of "overregulation" so small business is "un- leashed to hire new workers" I think I'll puke. Where do these idiotic, mindless, stupefying talking points issue from, some cosmic Rethuglican anus? Not that the Demoncrats are any better mind you. Obama's Jobs Bill is dead in the Senate and thank god for that.
What overregulation is being targeted? Some mega-corporate coal mine owner got a hard on for the Federal Mine Safety Commission or something?
The OWSers are the right people at the right time at the right place. They should not budge one inch, and definitely not cough up a list of demands for the MSM. Let the establishment be on the ropes for failing to answer simple, direct, and honest questions about ethics, fair and open markets, accountability.
I have seen many movements come and go, and the OWSers are playing their limited and somewhat chaotic hand very, very well. A big shout out to all of you down in Liberty Park holding the energy of the Second American Revolution. We will clean house top to bottom, inside and out. Rock on...
6 days until Black Monday II
This movement is dead unless it aligns with a party. Seriously. Because it's not as if this movement is going to take over the country from TPTB. Any change is going to have to go through the government.
I think just the opposite. The moment they support a party, they're done, but I don't see that happening. I think they're being shrewd and making the only appropriate play at this time: addressing issues on a high level and keeping the discussion about ideals and not on particular demands. We haven't had a serious discussion about basic ideas in this country for a long time, and now seems as good a time as any to expose the fundamental fallacies of conventional economic and political wisdom. Also, it's great that these demonstrations have gone global and everyone is now listening, because we need to work this out together, as a world of 99%'ers, fighting against the 1% who would have us be their slaves forever, in all countries.
As for any change having to go through the government, again, I think just the opposite. Change from the people is going to obviate the government.
The Declaration of Independence already spelled out what to do with Tyrannical Govts.
GW?????:
Demz co-opt? after dissin the brotha' yesterday?
Republicanz co-opt? Howz that again?
- Ned
as a known tactic,... it is an overt counter attack infiltrator that will muck up the peaceful movement while disappearing in the twilight - probably dozens or even hundreds snaking the landscape for opportunities to disband this movement before it grows some cartledge, inevitably morphing into a strong backbone carrying dozens of torches each secretly symbolic, in and of itself - binding a solemn demand for ammicable retribution, burning brightly for individual said basic rights - the freedom express is about to leave the station,... all aboard - just be vigilant
it's starting to coalesce with a unique inertia called "common sense" as the wings of justice have begun to graphed, thus uplifting this movement with an intrinsic, yet paradoxically life-of-its-own,... this symbiosis breathing osmosis in your face coming out party of grand ambiguity - bravo - to be seen, heard, and playing across our land - this is our land, and we are its caretakers of last resort,...
thankyou gw
we want freedom.
we want liberty.
we want truth.
we want justice.
we want peace.
we want beauty.
we want joy.
we want love.
we want wisdom.
the desires of the 100%. welcome to humanity.
Amen
Whatdaya mean what do we want? We want a body count. We want limo's blown sky-high. We want Congress running scared. We want the military to follow OUR orders! What kind of stupid "we don't have any demands" drivel is this crap? We have NOTHING BUT DEMANDS.
I don't know what "they" want, the 99%'ers that is, but here is our short list, and we are beginning to occupy the Fed along side of Oath Keepers. I will re-post it up top so this question is satisfied of what "they" want is what everyone wants, unless your dilusional and the world looks completly normal to you right now.
End The Fed
Stop all the useless wars
Bring our brother and siters in arms home
Return to Constitutional values(because it's better than what were using now)
Return to fiscal sanity.
Stop raising the debt limit, Obama has spent more in 3 years than all the Presidents combined.
Make a budget and stick to it.
Stop looting SS and Medicare/Medicade.
Kill the jobs Bill which repeals State Soverignity in section 376.
Close Gitmo and other offshore prisons illegally holding prisoners without acces to a lawyer or a court date.
Return to Glass Stegal Act.
Get the F out of the UN.
Begin using domestic oil supply instead of dealing with Countries that don't like us too much. (side note: oil is about to go up, now!)
Take away the CIA's ability to assasinate American citizens (search)
Close down 1/2 of the Pentagons Federal arms that are redundant offices
We are the Three Percenters, we get to vote even if there isn't an election.
More later.
III
ADDITIONAL DEMANDS
Shut down DHS,
Shut down FEMA
Shut down TSA
Decimate the Federal Government - gives authority back to the states
Fire everybody in the CIA and the NSA
Audit the CIA
Fuck the CIA
End the war on terror (which is run by the CIA)
Outlaw the excuse "national security" (whatever the fuck that even means)
Arrest, try, and imprison the entire senate, congress, and executive branch for malfeseance
Arrest, try, and imprison those arrogant, self-important motherfuckers on wall street
then we'll talk about what to do next.... have a nice day
Changes don't happen without a clear message.
Get with the program: The "Great Implosion™" is coming, and the OWS is too late to stop it.
FROM:
http://kunstler.com/blog/2011/10/occupy-everything.html
...
Then there was the persistent nagging over the "lack of an agenda," as if the US Department of Energy, or the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs was doing a whole lot better.
This is the funniest part to me: that leaders of a nation incapable of constructing a coherent consensus about reality can accuse its youth of not having a clear program. If the OWS movement stands for anything, it's a dire protest against the country's leaders' lack of a clear program.
For instance, what is Attorney General Eric Holder's program for prosecuting CDO swindles, the MERS racket, the bonus creamings of TBTF bank executives, the siphoning of money from the Federal Reserve to foreign banks, the misconduct at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the willful negligence of the SEC, and countless other villainies? What is Barack Obama's program for restoring the rule of law in American financial affairs? (Generally, the rule of law requires the enforcement of laws, no?)
---
This may come as a surprise to you, but those aimless politicians you mentioned aren't getting anywhere either.
dipshit, they are getting exactly where they want to be - raping the country to satisfy their corporate masters
no. they happen by posting anonymous 1 liners in comment sections on the web.
Here's your clear message:
The current crapocracy sucks! Every corrupted part of it!
A fat girl's saggy stomach sucks too, but her whining about it while stuffing her face with crap doesn't change the situation, does it?
How TPTB and the CIA loved, aided, and abetted the Arab Spring! So where are they now with our American Fall???
Arab Spring was, the arabs getting sick and tired of monarchs and opting pure theocracy...nothing more.
I wish them good luck...lol.
Well, well, well.
I tell you what they demand: "Obama pays my:
Not sure which side of the coin you're viewing -- is it the Republicon or Decepticratic side? Your point of view is myopic, in either case.
Maggots! Living off the work of others as they slovenly whine about why Santa didn't bring them a pony for Christmas.
Nothing will come of this until the money runs out and the EBT cards don't work. Then you will see the US light up from coast to coast, a Watts redo...
The Obamabucks video from Detroit is a classic.
The thing is...their vote cancels mine and yours...all predicted by DeTocqueville long ago.
Actually they lost control of it yesterday. Government is shut down again.
I saw Rep. Debra Wasserman-Schultz, DNC Chairman, interviewed on the subject of OWS.
Clearly the right feels threatened by it, hence all the absurd smears. But nobody is as scared as the Democrats. She tried to work OWS into line with "what we have done" and just stumbled along empty handed. And you could tell that she knew it.
Everybody expects OWS to favor the Dems. Yet is could not be more clear that the Dems have nothing in reality in common with the protests.
They should be scared. Very scared.
"What do you give the Govt that's taken everything?"
"Dreams Come Due, Government and Economics as if Freedom Mattered", ISBN: 0-671-61159-3, by John Galt
The book is dated, but many of the things it talks about are still valid today.
The Decepticrats (read Progressive/Socialists) can offer NO Govt program to cure the problems that an excessively LARGE Govt creates! The Republicons are no better -- do WE REALLY need more foreign adventures/"kinetic actions"? I don't think so.
I've said this from the start, any party alliance with this movement will hinder the progress of it. Divide and conquer isn't the right phrase, but it's what comes to mind.
I believe they want their Ameican Dream(ing) back.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6236/6235735784_463733dd48_b.jpg
Would laws and acts like Glass-Steagall not be necessary if people whether in the halls of power or anywhere for that matter were by nature, or at least taught to be ethical? I mean I see the seemingly systemic corruption that exists from the top down as a symptom of much larger problem and laws, acts and such are just bandages. Seriously, how can we expect our politicians, bankers, corporate execs and the like to act in an ethical manner when right and wrong is relative? Things today are so upside down and sideways it boggles the mind. Things that were formally wrong or taboo are now acceptable or even condoned. Cheating on tests, spouses, taking responsibility for one's own actions, entitlement mind of so many, victims of crimes being seen as the one's at fault and on and on. Anything can be rationalized.
The death knell of a civilized and ethical society sounded when morality was unhinged from being an absolute to one on a sliding scale. This has now come full circle and we are reaping its fruits. IMHO.
But, Altruism != Moral Hazard -- The Progressive/Socialists tell me so! /sarc
So, why aren't you calling this what it is George? Afraid of the truth.
OWS is nothing more than the DNC's most recent re-election strategy for the Obamster. Andit will fail as very few people are as ignorant and lazy as are you. By the way, is the Gulf being used or has it been destroyed forever? God, you're an idiot.
By the way, if we're all about freedom, what about my freedom to use the public sapce being occupied by this group of public fornicators, defecators and uninators? Do I not also have rights to public spaces?
Maybe they'll turn it into Height-Ashbury soon. You know George, murder, rape, STDs by the thouands and abuse of the minors. You know George, the good ol' freedom loving hippie way!
Gave you your one greenie.
urniators and fornicators, freedom is a buck o' five bitchez
What? The Republicans now are trying to co-opt Barry's peeps? Never happen. Chicago peeps have it all under control.
James O'Keefe throwin a little love on em too...
http://www.theprojectveritas.org/wallstreet
Hmmm...
Seems the little charmer is on probation in NJ and can't leave the state without permission. Irony is when you get busted by your own bullshit . . . on your own tape.
He says his probation officer gave him permission...so I think "busted" still applies...just not to him ;-)
To everybody who's trying to coopt, bend, fold, smear, mutilate, over analyze, under analyze, explain, interpret, read into, suppose, suggest or simplify, argue of, about, for or against, direct, mislead, stop, hinder or impede, follow, lead or get out of the way, and especially to all them folk who've spent humongoliod dollars trying to control, fuck off.
The message is as simple as a clod of dirt.
The people are mad as hell and ain't gonna take it anymore.
It is up to those leaders who display no leadership, their financial enablers and the King's Criers to figure out what the fuck is going on.
Because they are the ones at risk and must do something about it.
Hint #1: If you're a leader, you're the problem. Look no further.
Hint #2: If you're a financial enabler, just remember, the hungry eat fat things.
Hint #3. If you're part of the King's Criers, you've already lost to alternative media. Let it go.
Hint #4: Don't try to stop it, you'll only make it worse. Deal with it like a rational adult. (Yes, your mommy told you that, too. And BTW, everything your mother told you is right.)
Seriously, this has been a public service message.
I regret that I only have one green arrow for yer post! BRAVO!