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Protest Demands: Experts Say They’re Not Necessary, Despite Media Whining
Preface: The Occupy Wall Street protests certainly face challenges. The two main challenges being: (1) An attempt by both the Democratic and Republican parties to co-opt it (see this, this and this); and (2) agents provocateur (see this, this and this).
But – as demonstrated below – failing to have a set list of demands is not one of them.
The mainstream media’s attempt to smear the Wall Street protests because there’s no set list of demands has failed:
- Nobel prize winning economists support it. If they support it, the protests must have some real meaning and substantiality, even without a set list of demands
- Indeed, Nobel economist Paul Krugman says that complaining about the protests is just panic by the “plutocrats that people will start asking how they made their fraudulently-earned gains
- Pimco CEO El-Erian (more than a trillion dollars under management) says that the protest is valid – just like the protest in Egypt – even without any demands
- Prominent economist Michael Hudson says when the entire financial system is corrupt and broken, demanding a few technocratic fixes isn’t what’s called for
- Former Wall Street executive Richard Eskow says that specific demands would just empower the bankers, but that the protesters want justice and prosecution of Wall Street fraud
- A P.R. professional says that the mainstream media’s ridicule of the protests for failing to have a specific list of demands is a dishonest tactic
- Pulitzer prize winning reporter Chris Hedges slams the media, saying that everyone knows what the protesters want
- Cultural icon Russel Simmons says that everyone knows what the protesters want – they want Wall Street money to stop dominating politics, so the people’s will control
- And Yves Smith writes:
I’m fascinated by how many political operatives seem keen to tell the participants in OccupyWallStreet that they are doing lots of things wrong, and really should shape up and follow traditional lines, like issuing demands and seeking to apply pressure in more conventional ways. Given that the movement is getting lots of free and mainly favorable PR and is mushrooming all over the US, there does not seem to be a lot of empirical support for this view.
As numerous readers have pointed out, and the folks in Zuccotti Park recognize all too well, using those strategies now would play into the hands of the existing power structure. Per Richard Kline:
What I found disconcerting about the media’s quest to find the demands motivating the Occupiers was just that single word, ‘demands.’ That together with the rapidity of the media’s insistence that there must be demands. By itself it said everything about the media strategy anti-occupation while also ignoring the substantive statements of individuals at the occupations and the process of the occupations. ‘Demands’ are what disgruntled extremists ‘agitate’ for, in common, anti-popular media presentation of the last twenty years. Demands for ‘special’ pay; demands for ‘special’ treatment. Demands for ‘scapegoats’ to be dragged expensively into court. Demands for ‘acknowledgment’ from the politicos ‘at the top.’ You know: labor ‘demands,’ and all that stuff. The point was/is if demands can be elicited, than those in the occupation _must_ be agitators, which means that they must be malcontents, which means that they must be ‘unrepresentative,’ which means that they must be selfish interests; bums looking for handouts and blood, because that’s who the media presents as having ‘demands’ rather than ‘negotiating’ stances, or operational ‘missions’ like Serious People.
What the occupiers have had are questions. “Why aren’t there indictments for fraud and worse?” “Why are we firing nurses and teachers when corporate profits will hit a RECORD this year?” “Why to the richest pay no tax while state and local governments are crushed with debt?” “Why does the Beltway do absolutely nothing about employment?” “Why have student grants disappeared to be replaced by predatory loans without which we cannot get the education employers and the System demand from us?” These questions may _become_ demands, but they aren’t, yet. They, and most of the rest of us 99%, would realy like to have answers. But the media have done everything possible to _exclude_ questions of this kind, to push them to small, late, interior paragraphs in turgid pabalum articles and to exclude them from the broadcast media altogether.
The most visible controversy has surrounded “what do these people want?” As we’ve argued, “We are the 99%” more than suffices as a high level answer. It is a VERY powerful message. It says “We don’t need to negotiate. This is our country and we want it back from the top 1% which has been selling us out.” The 1% know damned well what the 99% want, which is a more just society. If you forced any 10 in the top 1% of them to make a list of 10 things they thought the other 99% wanted, I guarantee you’d have no more than 16 real issues among the 100 answers you’d get in total. And I strongly suspect the 99% would agree or at most restate them.
But the second source of orthodox consternation is the notion that there has to be a conventional hierarchical structure in place for an effort like this to succeed. The media and the officialdom seem flummoxed by the lack of obvious leaders and official spokesmen.
OWS is an experiment in something more akin to direct democracy and it explicitly places the wishes and needs of the community first. If nothing else it is exercising muscles that have atrophied badly in American discourse.
There seem to be some tacit assumptions in the reactions against the leisurely -looking process of community and consensus building at work in Zuccotti Square and other Occupy gatherings. One is that direct democracy doesn’t scale. There is some truth to that observation. Ancient Athens had 60,000 citizens at its peak.
But the fallacy here is that “not A” which is “not pure democracy” implies that the only alternative is B, which is something like our current way of doing politics. “Not A” is simply “not A”, and there are quite a few successful models which have far more participation by and accountability to a broad community than found in our current social/political arrangements where real influence is concentrated in a very few hands.
One that OWS has invoked is the open source model. Note that large scale open source programs are not lacking in organization; Linus Torvalds was the clear leader of Linux development and had a cohort of lieutenants under him. But this was an ambitious undertaking that was otherwise very informal.
One of the reasons it worked was that there were shared norms as to what good outcomes were, and that members of the community felt they gained something by making contributions that were recognized and valued by their peers. It’s worth stressing that: you had a large group that worked on the potlatch model, where being rewarded via accolades from your peer group was highly motivating. By contrast, the widespread assumption among the elites, that only money is motivating and everyone ultimately can be bought.
The community in Zuccotti Park seems to be building some foundations along these lines. People contribute because they feel it is inherently worthwhile to add a plank to something that will be much bigger. And the elaborate General Assembly process may well be building a set of new shared norms and values on the foundation of the obvious injustice of widespread, unpunished looting by the banks and the failure of the political elites to be responsive to the needs of ordinary citizens. It took the populist movement of 19th century over 15 years of organizing against the injustice of the debtcropper system for it to become a potent political force. If OWS can accomplish something like that in six months or even two years, that’s rapid by historical standards.
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Knuckles, please don't hold back, don't be coy, let us know what you really think.
6 days until Black Monday II
The fact is that they ARE protesting. They know something is wrong and they don't like it. If they saw the graphs on how QE1, QE2, and other programs have destroyed the value of american's savings and substantially raised the cost on silly things like food for americans tables. The Media (and The Drudge Report) pick out strange little happenings and report them as if it is the whole movement. I would not be surprised if some of the protestors are "black flag" attempts to discredit the movement.
... but Santa didn't bring them a pony for Christmas last year and they are cranky....
Once the money stops flowing, then you can be very afraid, indeed.
Bottom line, things are VERY screwed up. That's what the OWS protesters are saying, and it's not their job to fix it, that's what we pay for with our taxes, and the job isn't getting done FOR THE 99%!
First question which should be the "acid test" for any bill/law: Does the benefit the 99%?
Good litmus test since that has not been a relevant criteria for quite a while.
The biggest stumbling block for any protester is there is nothing to protest for. This is why there are no demands.
There is no larger pie from which to get a larger slice. The pie is shrinking. The future for everyone is less. Maybe the protesters get this but probably not. Asking for 'more' is crass, that is what the bankers do best, demand more.
A bigger slice of the pie is what protesters since the beginning of time have demanded: 7 billion plus billions more livestock and a billion vehicles. There is no more. It's all gone.
But those who stole it are still stealing.
Download Free PDF, Kindle, Word Doc of Full Report: ‘Analysis of Financial Terrorism in America’
I, for one, demand a pony
i'd settle for equal application of the law, irrespective of income
betcha i get a pony first
Nice talking point but you know that's all it is, a talking point.
We have enough wealth in this country to feed/clothe/house the poor and provide a K-College education for our kids. We have enough wealth so that every family can have at least one decent paying job with benefits.
But the 1/10 of 1% who OWN the wealth want you to think there's nothing left for you. As George Carlin famously stated "It's a big club...and you ain't in it".
HOW???: The answer is simple Mr. Krugman: Helped by your ideas, your support, your work, your lies, your........
Krugman obviously needs to bone up on the French Revolution... When the money runs out and the EBT cards go dry, I would be surprised if he keeps his head.
In Communist Amerika, Wall Street occupy YOU!
Who cares whether some dudes out in the gutter have demands or not?
There are 300 million people in this country who have been demanding accountability from the 'system' for years. Who listens to them? Why are the dudes so important all of a sudden? Is it because they are outside?
Believe it or not, the good ol' system is busy fixing itself, not giving a damn whether anyone approves or not. Slovakia just gave the finger to the German banks this afternoon, nuttin' to do with the OWSer dudes. The banks everyone are turning green ... because their boys @ the Fed have decided to flatten the yield curve.
Greece is going to default regardless of what happens, even a fiscal union of the EU (which won't happen). After the EU blows, next is investors' pet China. Japan is busy irradiating the northern hemisphere. Wait until the fuel shortages hit -- next year sez the US defense dept. You have no idea -- these shortages will be permanent.
The system is fixing itself and the big shots are going to get just deserts without any protesters having to do anything.
After the banks come the wasters of the general population. Nutting to do w/ dudes on Wall Street, just ... entropy.
Have a nice day!
Here's a little squawk from the CNBC turds...
Corporate Raider Asher Edelman Backs Occupy Wall Street: "Banks Win, Taxpayers Automatically Lose"
And a nice smack at Fox "News" for good measure.
VIDEO - Marine Vet At Occupy Wall Street Tells Sean Hannity To "F*CK OFF" For Saying Protesters 'Hate Liberty'
I have made about thousand demands so far in my life and I don't recall even one that was fulfilled.
Likewise here. They can make all the demands they want, and the media can make some hay from it, and the politicians can cop-opt it but in the end, all it is is just conversation. And every thing surrounding it.
Until a goodly number of politicians---current and past and future----IBankers, and yes, protesters and other accomplices appear with 1/2 inch apertures in their foreheads, or are dangling from the end of a rope, or whose heads are being weighed separate from their bodies, these protests are nothing more than a gigantic venting opportunity.
"As long as they have their free speech, they won't DO anything".
How true, how true.
"Politics: a battle of monied interests masquerading as a war of principles".
... I want my pony and I want it NOW!
BUT WHAT DO THEY WANT? I NEED A LIST.
We DEMAND you have DEMANDS DAMMIT!
Moved to the top.
They don't need a list, which only forfeits anything being accomplished.
There is only One thing needed on the LIST, only one thing---- if Ron Paul was worth anything but a loudmouth opportunist--propose and fight to the death for:
Reinstatement of Glass-Steagall.
If they can't get the Ibankers out of their pockets, then anything else they have on any list is meaningless.
End the Fed.
+99%
Agents provocateurs can provoke from various positions for various purposes. Always amazes me the degrees (or lack of degrees) of skepticism when the ax is on the grindstone.
- Ned
Even when they run back behind the police lines for security after the boots give them away!
even when they are bloody from their own bombz (at a suitable distance in the frag pattern) and can, well, "carry the bloody flag".
Then they run, let's see, into the arms of the Chairman of Commonwealth Edison's arms for like 10+ years. Or something. P'raps his wife, but all y'all get the picture. Just speculating here.
But Lenin had all kinds of ways to use "useful idiots" to achieve certain ends. Then Saul and gang got out the strop and honed their razors and bludgeons.
- Ned
If 'demands' are made then the MSM will simply relabel them TERRORISTS.
Best just to remain malcontents for the time being... until the numbers become too large for the cops to pepperspray, teargas or bootstomp into submission.
I expect to see acts of violence and destruction shortly originating from agent provocateur 'protestors' wearing cop boots just like at the North American Leaders Summit at Montebello PQ. Burning buildings and police cars will most assuredly get John Q. Public behind the forthcoming security crackdown.
TPTB cannot afford to allow this grassroots movement to grow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St1-WTc1kow
Thanks for the continiued coverage, GW. It's clear the people want the system to change, since it is corrupt and hollow in every respect. This makes it a laundry list that wouldn't play well on the MSM air-waves. John Robb at the Global Guerrillas blog has some interesting insight into the 'open source' nature of OWS: http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/
But the second source of orthodox consternation is the notion that there has to be a conventional hierarchical structure in place for an effort like this to succeed. The media and the officialdom seem flummoxed by the lack of obvious leaders and official spokesmen.
But, but...pyramid-shaped heirarchies are the ONLY way to structure societies! /sarc
it's a distraction paid 4 by the wealthiest 1%. watch the misdirection.
http://expose2.wordpress.com