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Thoughts from Athens
I talked to someone in the shipping business this morning. He happens to be Greek and has substantial interests in the country. We never did get around to talking about ships. Some of his words on the status quo in Greece:
The situation today is worse than ever. Business has stopped
The world does not appreciate the extent of social deterioration in the country.
Soup kitchens are forming to feed people.
Many old age homes are desperate. Many are indebted. The have been pleading for donations.
Wealthy ship owners have been discussing a private initiative to provide support for those on the edge.
There is no possibility for a unity government. There is less chance for this in Greece then there is in the USA. You think there is a problem between Democrats and Republicans? Here, they hate each other.
Papandreou was desperate to get out. He could not see how he could continue to play a confrontational role with the Greek people. He was losing his ability to maintain civil order. He did not want to govern a country that was going to become either a police state, or fall into a state of revolution.
An interim government may pass new laws and make promises to the EU and IMF. Most in the government want to stay in the EU and stick with the Euro. It’s in their best interests to do so. That’s what the EU is pushing them day and night to do.
It’s way to late for this type of orderly transition. It will end badly for Greece.
There is a sense of optimism in the markets and the press that a soft landing can be achieved in Europe. That a “solution” is hours away. Only “one more” vote in parliament is required in any of the countries facing trouble. The financial resources needed to address the problem are available. There may be a temporary liquidity issue but solvency is not a question. The social, political and economic consequences of what will come are all manageable.
I thought I would provide this fellow’s thoughts as a contrast to all that hopium.
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Political solutions to economic problems. What nonsense. An interim government with new laws based upon the old is as old as the hills when trying to deal with a revolution; and it never works. Everyone is pulling their money out of the local banks and getting into something that will survive the move to the drachma. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Better to just make the move, depreciate the currency and then put out the welcome mat for the surge in tourists that come flooding into town. The biggest problem now is the government. Isn't that a surprise.
Thanks for passing that on. That's real reporting that I appreciate.
Subprime -- What is the food situation in Greece?
Hmmmm, that graffiti has the "Timewave Zero"-like graph on the top of the "HOPE" letters being on fire.
Both the Mayans, and Terrence McKenna touched on the subject of periods of time through this type fo graph:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon#Timewave_zero_and_the_I_Ching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itH2Y8_gbl0
Everyone who can leave Greece will leave Greece in the next year or so -- another tax whammy to consider.
Just watch. I predict the EU freedom of movement of Labour will be rescinded in 5 ... 4 ... 3 ...
Throw in currency controls too while you're at it.
And so it is written : Eventually you will always harvest bitter fruit from the tree of socialism.
Three people junked you. They probably think the Greeks are being manhandled by the banking cartel. But the Greeks would not be in a position to be manhandled if it were not for socialism.
Oh, socialism! How we will miss thee. We will have to go back to the near zero starvation rates, low drug addiction rates, high employment, personal independence, and real charity that existed before socialism crept into the world. It will be a nightmare for the control freaks who will have to limit their destructive impulses to their families and employees. After we go through this wringer, it's going to be open season on control freaks. The poor will always be with us. A bunch of control freaks seized on that fact and used it to enslave the rest of us.
Yes, the fiat ponzi already had us enslaved, and it is fiat ponzi that enables both welfare and warfare states. But the control freaks had to play their part to get us to this point. Maybe it's for the best: if we had an otherwise free market, we might have gone on for centuries steadily enriching the cartel. If they truly control everything, then we are truly screwed; this unravelling is not a mistake, it's planned. And it means that whatever is waiting in the wings is worse than we think, because a lot of us are still hopeful about avoiding explicit enslavement.
Industrial Revolution.
All was perfection during this time until the evil socialism back stabbed it from the shadows and made the world a darker place ever since.
Actually "socialism" COMPENSATED the lack of adaption to the industrial revolution.
How so? Easy: Industrial revolution == less workhours needed for the entire civilization.
But what happens, if your economic system still expects the same amount of workhours per person as before? Well, since overall available workhours went down, some people will get no workhours at all.... but see, in the current model, they need workhours to sustain their own survival.... ergo, either you get millions of dead (in a self-reinforcing negative-feedback loop)... or you give them money for free (socialism).
So, while socialism didn't fix the underlying issues at all, since the model did not address the changes introduced by the industrial revolution... the only thing left to do, was compensation... and thus socialism.
Lower-class socialism in the current economic model, is what prevents it from collapsing. Simultaneusly, it is what lowers the need for a real fix of the problems (so, it works against the need of fixing unsustainable defects).
Lower-class socialism is what you get, if you fail to fix the fundamental issues. It simply is compensation: If you don't fix the holes, then you gotta plug them with green shots.
Tell that to the Swedes, Danes, or for that matter to Germans during the decades of its SDP gov't (during which things went way better than under the CDU/CSU).
Which is rotten to the core.
Rotten to the core with Western-style crony Capitalism.
They just don't make Socialist utopias the way they used to.
Thanx Bruce,
It's always good to get comments from the front lines. So who's coming and who's going? Will Spain, Portugal and Greece leave? Will Turkey join up?
Bruce,
I also would like to get a more first hand story about the true state of affairs in Greece from your Greek friends. Even if you can only post it on your off site blog.
SIN,
The situation in Athens is bad (I haven't been around the rest of the country).The city is clearly in a depression. But what I keep telling people who ask me about it is one has to put the Great Depression into context. There were soup lines and bread kitchens and those are the images that time conjures up. But you also had some of the greatest clubs in the world operating like the Cotton Club. So although there is a depression in Greece it's not the equivalent of the end of the world or War of the Worlds type scenario.
When one walks through Athens about 20% to 25% of all business have shut down. There are empty shops left and right. If one goes out to nightclubs you notice that although people do go out they'll only buy a drink and slow sip it. Any business operating will tell you that even if they are profitable they've been massively hit by new taxes. Most business are owed massive amounts of money by customers. Crime has gone through the roof. Roberries, assaults, burglaries are up hundreds of percentages. In fact the only businesses reporting bumper profits in Greece are security companies. Crime is massively underreported in the statistics (who would've thought Greece would provide false statistics about its crime) but when watching the news or reading the paper the amount of circumstantial evidence of higher crime is overwhelming. Also stories from friends and family abound of victims of crime.
The real turning point was the 28th of September in Greece. The 28th is the equivalent of the 4th of July in the US. It's known as "NO" day, which is the day Greece refused to surrender to the Axis powers. Citizens were attacking politicians and blocking military parades in every city of the country except Athens. The Athenian city marching band performed with black ribbons on their instruments. Students walking in the parade in Athens would hold up black handkerchiefs when passing the politicians on the stands outside the parliament. Here is some video footage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azZzeIuOf3w&feature=related
So after the 28th my best guess is that all the politicians but especially Papandreou realized that they had completely lost legitimacy. The system no longer works in Greece. There is simply no light at the end of the tunnel for most people. You have to remember that Papandreou's government has been characterized by almost a split personality disorder. He got elected on the promise of "there is money out there". He kept repeating after each bail-out package that there wouldn't be anymore austerity, then he'd implement more austerity a month later. This has happened so repeatedly that the entire population thinks the man is incompetent. In the meantime since his reign began the Greek economy has shed over 300,000 private sector jobs. Sales tax has gone from 18% to 25%. The latest emergency tax, which was a 10% surcharge on monthly income and a property tax was included on people's ELECTRICITY BILLS!!! So if you didn't pay the tax they would shut off your electricity. It's just absolutely insane.
In the meantime the public sector hasn't shed a single-job. Now that the government is even considering cutting 30,000 public sector jobs by 2014 all hell is breaking loose on the streets again. So the situation is beyond insane. I actually agreed with Papandreou's referendum and the Greek people really should be asked "do you want to default or do you want more austerity". It is time for the people to make the responsible decision for themselves. And underlying a lot of the anger in Greece is the realization that despite all the austerity, the higher taxes, the firings, the constant riots, the rising crime, that more debt is still being added on and that there is no end in site. If you ask most people "will it be better ten years from now" they'll tell you no, it'll be worse.
Another few things, everyone complains about not having money all the time. You ask people if they want to go out and even people who are in the shipping business (which is performing like shit these days) will tell you they don't have dough. People are constantly talking about leaving the country. I have friends that ask me all the time what it's like abroad and if they can come stay with me while they look for a job.
Doc,
Thanks ever so much for putting such a detailed post together in answer to my question. It's very difficult to get the real truth from the people's perspective. It was really telling when you shared what the 10 year outlook for most people as getting worse not better. I might have surmised that would be the answer, but it's different to read it first hand. I don't wish this type of economic collapse on anyone and I have no doubt it will cascade around the world in all its most severest forms. Government bloat seems to be universal and the purging of all that useless weight will only come when they have no other choice. I do wonder whether the Greek people, given the choice, would choose for more austerity or choose an exit. I wish they would have put it to a vote, but they can't risk the debt surfs deciding things for themselves because then they would really lose control. Thanks again for sharing your insights.
Your post says it all.
Government workers were made promises. They all still have their jobs.
The citizens were made promises. They get new taxes which they have to pay if they want their lights to stay on.
Good luck looking for that job.
Thank you for sharing. I am sorry things are so bad. USA media does not convey the hardships of individual Grecians.
Perhaps they need a new Grecian Formula...
Just sayin'
lol Classic!
Taking place is energy conservation by other means.
I bet a lot of Greeks still have cars, driving them pointlessly in circles ... for something to do. There are your billions of euros per year right there. All pitched down the toilet ... for fun!
Greece goes broke and has no gas. Then what?
The choices have always been simple but unpleasant: "Do I keep driving a car or can I have a job?" Lose the job and out goes the car. That's how this is working.
"Do I drive a (German) car or have a place to live?"
Next is, "Do I drive a car or have something to eat?"
Message here is industrialization fails, the toys don't earn anything. Greece is heading back toward an agrarian way of life, followed by Portugal and the rest.
Good luck: it's hard but there is no other choice.
Start by banning pesticides and force the farmers to produce food for local communities if required. Force the seed banks to reintroduce the "barbarous relics" (that humanity has taken tousand years to select) they have managed to take out of the environment and replaced with hybrid seeds (or worse, GMO).
And for sake, inform farmers about organic culture techniques, integration techniques and bio-pesticides receipes. Agro-chemical pesticides KILL organic life and therefore KILLS the soil regeneration power (it's living... don't you know?). So they can work respectfully instead of needing to replace the bio-nutriments by artificial nutriments (petroleum) and mass-genociding insects and micro-organisms. Start by explaining them how you can regenerate desertified soil (manure, baking powder and sunlight protection receipe)
If you can manage to do that, in just about two years you will not only have self-sufficient communities but also long-term health improvement and FUCKING TASTY FOOD.
Last century "Green Revolution" is a pure capitalist scam.
Sorry for not giving sources (I only have material in french) but I'm sure that if you search a little bit you'll find material. It is a responsibility to do so because top-down management doesn't give a shit about that.
There is a little adage about capitalism: when you pollute a river you make money three times: first you implant industry, second people need more healthcare because of the shit you throw in the environment and third you need to decontaminate the soil.
Thanks Bruce. Anything that escapes the filter of the MSM is quite valuable.
This is all sad ya know. Hard to find humor anymore in this situation. Too many suffering. Defenseless.
Their dependency and their defenselessness are both the result of rampant statism - promises of something for nothing. The only good that comes from all of this will be a total repudiation of government. But even then, some will listen to the siren song of something for nothing, and the cycle will begin again. This doesn't end until we make 'redistribution' a crime - conspiracy to commit mass theft and to enslave the recipients. That's what it is, and what we now see is what it's brought us - economic ruin, intergenerational enslavement, massive corruption and criminality, and a shiny new police state. This shit doesn't happen unless tens of millions are dependent and unable/unwilling to object.
I won't be at all surprised to see a military coup in Greece.
http://wlcentral.org/node/1956
Far as I know, the APC procurement is still in play, as are a bunch of other tenders for heavy ground weaponry. The Greek government is out money but the army is still procuring. Why?
I thought Greece was going to be in a state of open civil war by sometime last year. This seems like a cruel experiment in Greece to see just how much bs the general population will put up with before they become wholly and truly ungovernable (generally riotous-not just a bunch of guys who are already angry, but grandma, grandpa, the nerd down the street and everyone else too)
Those contracts are full of conditional orders, hollow victories for the winners. Might even be losses if the baseline NRE isn't covered by more then a few orders. Watch the military fuel stockpile for an indication of current cash vs readiness, not future weapon orders.
Fair point. Do you have a read on that?
The Greeks brought this on themselves. Not much reason to care unless you are long EU banks.
About as significant as when a similar fate befell Argentina.
I heartell they had a little help from Goldman Sucks.
That's an understatement. The entire policy is being crafted out of Berlin by Goldman Sachs "from beginning to end." doesn't appear to be following the Hollywood variant.
Tell that to Jon Corzine, or any of his clients who got margin called yesterday.
Who cares if Corzine got wiped out speculating in PIIGS debt? There are still holders of defaulted Argentine bonds who are trying to recover some fraction of their investment many years later.
I feel sorry for his clients, but their issue is with Corzine diverting client funds. Corzine lost big bucks for GS, wrecked NJ and buried MF. Why anyone trusted him or gave him another job is beyond me.
and so he floated the referendum balloon and cleverly deposed himself saving as much face as possible while leaving Greece with an IMF/EZ elitist hack as its leader. G-Pap must be looking at the man in the mirror in his sea side villa or more likely on his yacht thinking what a fcking genius to have gotten out of there with my billions intact and reputation sullied but far from destroyed.
He's interning at the Carlyle Group.
Kick the Jew Day is here!
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4145266,00.html
A heartfelt wish for all the Diaspora.
NEXT YEAR, IN JERUSALEM!
Kick Hard!
police state / state of revolution nice choices, can't wait until the big stick swings in this direction as well. what a bright future for my kids and their kids.
2pm et tomorrow
This.
The EAS was testing via my cable box last night at about 2 am CST. It was really annoying, given that the sole joy I derive from having to wake up in the middle of the night to feed my newborn is watching Sportscenter. It was literally interrupting the broadcast every 30 seconds. And then it would switch momentarily to C-Span. For those of us predisposed to conspiracy theory, they just so happened to be broadcasting a roundtable discussion on the Arab Spring. DUN! DUN! DUN!
Seriously though, it left me wondering what the hell I was thinking propogating the species.
Funny....my days of midnight feedings is long over, but at 5 am I turned on the TV and same crap was happening on my TV.
Seems they might be a bit nervous about their much publicized "this is just a test".
I can just see Mo, Larry, and Curly (Janet et al) in the back room going, "Okay, now WHICH button do we push?"
Also, check out this article about the sound wave technology they have that could accompany these alerts (note: this is just considering possibilities and is in no way saying it WILL be used....I just thought it sounded like something the DHS would adore!):
http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=1524529989&clmigstart=2011...
BK,
Save the snippets. You'll want to rerun them for Italy, Spain, Portugal, and the US in the future.
The euro is not in their best interest especially if it means giving up sovereignty i.e. Greeks can no longer govern Greece. Sooner or later the realization that monetary/fiscal union in the hands of few creates the distortions and inequality seen in so many countries. Though the fear of the unknown will be trumped up by those who seek to only consolidate their power, it is far less harmful than allowing one to be sold under the slavery of debt.
All the best to those who help their less fortunate fellow countrymen in these trying times and may you not suffer any longer under the tyranny of those who seek to take away your freedom, liberty, and right to a prosperous future.
Dude, Greeks took away their own liberty. The moment one becomes dependent upon the state they are a slave. The same is going on the US.
The EU is just a more austere master than the Greek government.
In a perfect world, the only state I'd like to be dependent upon is my own state here in the US which by law has to balance it's own budget. I wonder when, if ever, we will throw off our own chains.