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Trustee to Seize and Liquidate Even the Stored Customer Gold and Silver Bullion From MF Global

ilene's picture




 

Trustee to Seize and Liquidate Even the Stored Customer Gold and Silver Bullion From MF Global

Courtesy of Jesse's Cafe Americain 

The bottom line is that apparently some warehouses and bullion dealers are not a safe place to store your gold and silver, even if you hold a specific warehouse receipt. In an oligarchy, private ownership is merely a concept, subject to interpretation and confiscation.

Although the details and the individual perpetrators are yet to be disclosed, what is now painfully clear is that the CFTC and CME regulated futures system is defaulting on its obligations.  This did not even happen in the big failures like Lehman and Bear Sterns in which the customer accounts were kept whole and transferred before the liquidation process.   

Obviously holding unallocated gold and silver in a fractional reserve scheme is subject to much more counterparty risk than many might have previously admitted.  If a major bullion bank were to declare bankruptcy or a major exchange a default, how would it affect you? Do you think your property claims would be protected based on what you have seen this year?

You always have counter-party risk if you hold gold and silver through another party, even if they are a Primary Dealer of the Federal Reserve. As Ben said, the Fed offers no seal of approval.   

If a Bankruptcy Trustee can pool your bullion into the rest of the paper assets and then liquidate it at prices that are being front run by the Street, you will have to accept whatever paper settlement that they give you.

The customer money and bullion assets are not lost, or rehypothecated or anything else.  This is a pseudo-legal fig leaf, a convenient rationalization.  

The customer assets were stolen, and given to at least one major financial institution by MF Global to satisfy an 11th hour margin call in the week of their bankruptcy, even as MF Global was paying bonuses to its London employees.

And in an absolutely classic Wall Street move, they are still charging the customers storage fees on the bullion which they have misappropriated from them. lol.

And now that powerful financial institution does not want to give the customer money and metal back. And they are apparently so powerful that the Trustee and the Court are reluctant to try and force its return to the customers, which is customary in this type of preferential distribution of assets prior to a bankruptcy, much less assets that were stolen. And keep in mind that in those last days the firm sent checks instead of wire transfers to customers so they could bounce them, and in a few cases even reversed completed wire transfers!

And so in the great Wall Street tradition they are trying to force the customers and the public to take the loss. The regulators and the exchange are aghast, and are trying to imagine how to resolve and spin this to preserve investor confidence and prevent a run on the system.

'Let them eat warehouse receipts.'

For many this would have been unthinkable only a few months ago. They had been cautioned and warned repeatedly, but chose to trust the financial system. And now they are suffering loss and anxiety, frozen assets, and the misappropriation of their wealth.

How more plainly can it be said? The US financial system as it now stands cannot be trusted to observe even the most basic property rights as it continues to unravel from a long standing culture of fraud.

Get your money as far away from Wall Street as is possible. And if you want to own gold and silver, take delivery and store it in a secure private facility outside the fractional reserve system.

Barrons
The Silver Rush at MF Global 
By ERIN E. ARVEDLUND
December 17, 2011

It's one thing for $1.2 billion to vanish into thin air through a series of complex trades, the well-publicized phenomenon at bankrupt MF Global. It's something else for a bar of silver stashed in a vault to instantly shrink in size by more than 25%.

That, in essence, is what's happening to investors whose bars of silver and gold were held through accounts with MF Global.

The trustee overseeing the liquidation of the failed brokerage has proposed dumping all remaining customer assets—gold, silver, cash, options, futures and commodities—into a single pool that would pay customers only 72% of the value of their holdings. In other words,while traders already may have paid the full price for delivery of specific bars of gold or silver—and hold "warehouse receipts" to prove it—they'll have to forfeit 28% of the value.

That has investors fuming. "Warehouse receipts, like gold bars, are our property, 100%," contends John Roe, a partner in BTR Trading, a Chicago futures-trading firm. He personally lost several hundred thousand dollars in investments via MF Global; his clients lost even more. "We are a unique class, and instead, the trustee is doing a radical redistribution of property," he says.

Roe and others point out that, unlike other MF Global customers, who held paper assets, those with warehouse receipts have claims on assets that still exist and can be readily identified. 

The tussle has been obscured by former CEO Jon Corzine's appearances on Capitol Hill. But it's a burning issue for the Commodity Customer Coalition, a group that says it represents some 8,000 investors—many of them hedge funds—with exposure to MF Global...

At stake is an unspecified, but apparently large, volume of gold and silver bars slated for delivery to traders through accounts at MF Global, which filed for bankruptcy on Oct. 31. Adding insult to the injury: Of the 28% haircut, attorney and liquidation trustee James Giddens has frozen all asset classes, meaning that traders have sat helplessly as silver prices have dropped 31% since late August, and gold has fallen 16%. To boot, the traders are still being assessed fees for storage of the commodities...

 

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Tue, 12/20/2011 - 02:50 | 1996887 Franktastic
Franktastic's picture

Freedom and ownership are a grand illusion...most are just now waking up to that reality. What to do?

I would gladly let go all my assets go to see these dipshits hang from the lamp post...there is nothing more scarier than a man who has nothing left to lose.

But the simplest way and the non-violent way to stop the whole system dead in its tracks in 2-3 months top.

It is called Civil Disobedience.

"Withholding payment of taxes is one of the quickest methods of overthrowing a government"
Mahatma Gandhi

 

Stay home, don't work, don't pay a single credit card bill a mortgage payment and insurance payment nada! Or don't even show up for your court date, just stay home and garden..2-3 months the money flow stops and you take every bit of power from them, and claim your power back.. are you ready for that?

 

But sadly the 99% can't even agree on one single thing, but complain loudly and occupy WS and they mock us...but when the 99% backs are against the wall and a gun in your face (not far off now)....then, its should of, could of, would of.. it will be to late then to do anything.

 

The time is ripe for a velvet revolution...so whose with me?

 

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 12:13 | 1991518 gnomon
gnomon's picture

Property rights are the basis for our inalienable rights.

If an agent comes to seize your pms, you shoot them between the eyes.

If confiscatory taxes are imposed on your home/land for the purposes of seizing said property, when they come to evict you, you shoot them between the eyes.

Nobody lives forever.  And not everybody can exit this life with honor, doing what needs to be done for the greater good at a critical point in History.

Man Up, bitches.  Fear is a one-way street to the Gulag.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 12:01 | 1991482 gnomon
gnomon's picture

People are looking at this wrong, from a fearful state of mind.  If any agent comes to seize your pms at some future date, you shoot them between the eyes.  If taxes on your home/land are hiked to confiscatory levels and this leads to your attempted eviction, you shoot them between the eyes.  

Nobody lives forever.  And not everybody can exit this life with honor, doing the thing that needs to be done at a critical point in History.

I see the cup as half-full.  Man Up, bitches. 

(Property rights are the basis of all of our inalienable rights).

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 11:38 | 1991447 lindaamick
lindaamick's picture

Maybe the part of the MFGlobal story related to the confiscation of physical gold and silver from customers is a tactic to scare investors away from future purchases of said metals.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 11:18 | 1991394 Savvy
Savvy's picture

Being broke never felt so good. What a clusterfuck.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 10:53 | 1991330 Funghi
Funghi's picture

ZH is my primary source of financial news and information, though this is my first comment. I have much of my retirement assets (401k) in CEF and GTU. I very rarely see CEF or GTU mentioned here, positively or negatively. They are closed-end trusts, which purport to be passive and self-governing, whose sole purported purpose is to acquire, hold and secure gold bullion (plus silver at CEF) on behalf of Unit-holders. Am I fooling myself thinking that the metal (and my investment) are reasonably safe, as unencumbered, segregated, and allocated metal in these Canadian trusts?

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 14:46 | 1991714 Pseudo Anonym
Pseudo Anonym's picture

Am I fooling myself thinking that the metal (and my investment) are reasonably safe, as unencumbered, segregated, and allocated metal in these Canadian trusts?

some time ago, perhaps a year, there was some hoopla around silver certificates for 100oz silver bars at Scotiabank, which, surprise, surprise, they did not have.  Perhaps you could look at it up and see how that worked out for the certificate holders...

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 12:55 | 1991607 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Of course you can trust the Canadian government.

Asset-back commercial paper, Sino-Forest, Bre-X.

All spawned in Canuck law and fed by the trustworthy Canadian government.

Oh... and the check is in the mail...

PS  Welcome to Fight Club

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 12:04 | 1991490 cbaba
cbaba's picture

I am sorry to say this but Yes, you are fooling yourself, someone has to say this to you, i know its hard to accept the truth but it is what it is, nothing is safe other than holding your physical with your own hands.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 11:31 | 1991431 Savvy
Savvy's picture

Canadian banks are no less exposed

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/why-uk-trail-mf-global-collapse-may-have-apocalyptic-consequences-eurozone-canadian-banks-jeffe

 

Your investments are never safe in someone else's hands, that's what this entire article is about.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 11:28 | 1991420 I think I need ...
I think I need to buy a gun's picture

i don't know we ask that same question on those EXACT two (GTU and CEF), really they can dilute by issueing more shares  and i actually just saw a piece someone i believe posted here was Canada had no gold in reserves. Well guess what in an emergency the Canadian Government will take those two trusts in a heartbeat is my guess.

The whole system is against the little guy as a saver and it really pisses me off,,,,,,,,you need to own some physical metal as well,,,,,,,,all the others you have to assume you will not profit or actually lose the money

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 11:26 | 1991413 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

It is very difficult to operate in human society without some degree of trust. Having said that, your investment is as secure as the Canadian government is willing to abide by current laws and regulations governing private property.

Here, in the US, we are not.

Hope that helps.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 10:50 | 1991313 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

MF Global was a Bailiff of the Gold and Silver of their Customers.  They were responsible for the Care and storage of these assets for others.  Although, they had possession they did not have any legal right to these assets.

The Gold and Silver that MF Global has in its possession is not their property but the property of others it was a Bailiff for.  The Gold and Silver that MF Global had in its possession belonged to others and not to them.  They should not be able to include other peoples property in their Bankruptcy as it is not their asset, it is the asset of someone else.  The Gold and Silver that belongs to someone else should not be allowed to be liquidated and given to MF Global's Creditors as it is not their asset.  The Gold and Silver should be returned to its rightful owner.

It is kind of like having a Diamond Necklace in your Safe Deposit Box at a Bank.  If the Bank goes Bankrupt the Trustee of the Bankruptcy does not have the right to liquidate your Diamond Necklace and give the proceeds to the Banks Creditors.  Just because the Safe Deposit Box is on the Banks property that does not give them ownership of the contents. This situation should be no different with the Gold and Silver that MF Global holds for others.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 12:13 | 1991513 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

That's all well and good if they actually had the physical Gold and Silver. If they actually had physical metals I contend they would not have taken (Stolen) the metals in the accounts. Doing this has shaken the confidence of people storing metals in vaults not their own. An even worse situation would have been an outright default. All my metals are in my direct control. Anyone with any sense would be demanding their physical metals be delivered to them ASAP. You don't want to be in line behind someone allocated the Gold and Silver that is also allocated to you due to Double Counting. At this point Double Counting may be optimistic with the real number of people holding the same serial numbered Gold and Silver Bars at 100 to 1.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 19:19 | 1991345 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Ann Barnhardt (who closed her firm due to this MFG final straw) recomends, "Invest in real things that you can stand in front of and defend with an AR 15".  Sage advice.

http://dont-tread-on.me/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/annbarnhardt.jpg

Listen to this interview with Jim Puplava here:

http://www.financialsense.com/financial-sense-newshour/guest-expert/2011...

 

Regarding gold and silver investments, treat them like a gun purchase.  They won't do you any good locked in someone else's safe.

Mon, 12/19/2011 - 15:03 | 1994955 Guy Fawkes Mulder
Guy Fawkes Mulder's picture

 

http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/blog/2840/mfing-global

"From commodities broker Ann Barnhardt:

 
Nutshelling the MF Global Collapse
Posted by Ann Barnhardt - October 31, AD 2011 11:14 AM MST
Yes, I called it late last week and strongly urged MF customers to make a hasty exit stage right, but I absolutely did not see what happened this morning coming. This is utterly unprecedented. The Chicago Mercantile Exchange issued an email circular this morning (I received mine at 8:39 am MDT) stating that all MF Global positions were limited to LIQUIDATION ONLY and all MF employees and brokers and traders were banned from the floor of the exchange.

1. As I mentioned last week, MF Global came to its present form back in 2005 when the then-biggest clearing firm, Refco, imploded and was bought by EDF Man. The new, huge firm was then renamed MF Global. When Refco imploded in 2005, NOTHING like this happened. It was a relatively smooth transition, trading was not interrupted, and most of the Refco employees were absorbed into the new company. There was absolutely NO interruption of customer access to positions.

2. Shutting off access of customers to their floor brokers and limiting them to liquidation-only is UNPRECEDENTED. If a big account did not have multiple clearing relationships, the risk exposure this morning for those firms is terrifying to ponder. I did not see this coming. The whole industry is pretty much in shock.

3. Let's not forget that a whole lot of people have just lost their jobs. All of the MF clerks, back office staff, everyone who worked for MF on Friday is now unemployed this morning. Those people matter. John Corzine views them as meaningless economic units who exist only to serve him and advance his power and increase his personal wealth, but John Corzine is an evil sociopath who should be permanently removed from society and imprisoned for the rest of his life so that he can do no more damage. Fricking jackal.

4. Speaking of Corzine, more info is coming out in the bankruptcy filings. First, Corzine stands to reap a $12.1 million severance package / golden parachute per the bankruptcy filing. But that isn't the worst. Corzine was hired by MF less than two years ago. He promptly went about loading the company up on European bonds. That in and of itself is damning enough. Remember, Corzine is Goldman Sachs. He knew EXACTLY what was going on in Europe and he knew that European paper was junk. But guess which European countries he loaded up on? Greece, Portugal, Italy and Ireland. The four little PIIGs. Corzine intentionally drove MF into the ground so that someone, and my money is on Goldman Sachs, could come in and buy the remains for 30 cents on the dollar or less. Watch the news. Watch and see who ends up buying the remnants of MF. If it isn't Goldman outright, I'll bet it is a "holding company" that is tied to Goldman. As an astute commenter over at ZeroHedge.com said last night, it looks like Corzine never really stopped working for Goldman. He just moved his office into MF Global's suite.

5. And now, ONE MORE TIME regarding the financial industry regulators in this country. Guys, they are evil, corrupt and incompetent. The regulatory bodies are run by evil, evil people at the top who are complicit in these goings-on. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that MF Global could have passed any honest audit with the amount of exposure it was carrying in the European bond market. By the way, MF Global's audit would have fallen under the jurisdiction and oversight of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange itself AND the Commodity Futures Trading Commission on the Federal level. It is just impossible that the CME and the CFTC didn't know MF's position and risk exposure all along. The second tier in these regulatory agencies are a combination of evil, greedy and incompetent bureaucrats who could very well be classified as "useful idiots" who will do anything, say anything, or overlook anything just so long as their salary check clears the bank every month. The third tier are full-blown useful idiots - and by that I mean totally, completely and astoundingly unqualified and incompetent "foot soldiers", many of whom are affirmative action hires. When things like this happen (and there are other examples of massive ponzi schemes being ignored in recent history, like the Sentinel Management Group fiasco) what these regulatory bodies do is lay the blame for "missing" the red flags at the foot of the affirmative action hires who are the on-site auditors and who are made to sign off on the audits. Do you see this? Do you see the evil we are dealing with here?

6. And now here is a paragraph that everyone in the financial industry, but most particularly the futures industry, should send viral. Every Introducing Broker and Futures Commission Merchant in the world is being targeted for extinction by the megabanks. They want you GONE. Goldman, Citi, JP Morgan, etc. They are working with and through the financial regulatory bodies and with the Federal Government via such legislation as Dodd-Frank to force out of business every FCM and fold all of that business into the megabanks. IBs like me are also a target, but we IBs are meaningless guppies compared to whale-sized FCMs.

Corzine was SENT into MF Global with the objective of collapsing it and rolling the remains into Goldman (presumably). And he was paid eight figures to do it, AND promised SEC TREAS after Geithner. If you had said six months ago that the largest FCM in the U.S. would be taken down, everyone would have laughed in your face, but here we sit. The only question is, who is next? How long will an FCM like ADM last before looking at Dodd-Frank and saying, "Screw this. We're selling our clearing operations and we'll just go back to straight-up product merchandizing." Why shouldn't they? If the FCM profit center is made impossible by the government and the corrupt regulatory bodies, why would they continue to operate an FCM? Why not sell to Goldman or one of the other megabank entites and then do their exchange-traded hedge business through them as a customer? When will the old Chicago boutique firms be similarly forced out, either through regulation that makes their business impossible, or through outright sabotage as with Corzine and MF? None of you FCMs are safe. THEY WILL COME AFTER YOU AT SOME POINT. You have been targeted for extermination. Either you wake up to this fact and expose these regulatory bodies, megabanks and the Federal Government and fight them, or you are going to end up like MF, being bought by Goldman or one of the other fascist government-connected megabanks for pennies on the dollar. You have been warned.

7. This MF Global collapse is a small-scale (yes, that's right, SMALL-SCALE) foretaste of what is going to happen to the entire system. When I say get your money out of the market, out of paper instruments, and turn it into something real that is physically located on your property, that you can then stand in front of with an assault rifle and physically defend, I'M NOT KIDDING.

**Just for the sake of clarity, I clear exclusively through Penson right now. I have previously cleared RCG, and worked in an RJO branch office which RJO purchased from LFG in 2000, before starting my IB in 2006. That is the extent of my FCM relationship history."

Yikes. This is some bad shit and it's a long way from over. If you are attempting to trade, first of all, you're nuts. Way, way, way too much uncertainty at the current time. However, if you are giving it a go, please be very careful. I would be quite reluctant to trade aggressively and I would not hold anything overnight. It's just not worth it. That said, below are two charts that are somewhat encouraging. We spent over a month observing the price action in the metals below the resistance area I labeled "Max Q". Once the metals finally broke higher through Max Q, a rally looked to be forthcoming. It still may be. Up or down, one thing that invariably happens when something breaks out of a sideways range is a re-test of that range. Remember, what was resistance becomes support and vice versa. Specifically in this case, gold had resistance from 1680-1705. It broke out last week and is now testing that level as support this week. So far, so good. Gold tried and failed to hold the top end at 1705 but today's waterfall selloff climaxed at 1681 and now we're back to 1717. Again, so far all is well. In silver, the old resistance was 32.35 - 33.60 and we bottomed today at 32.11 and have rebounded to 33.15.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 10:26 | 1991272 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture

 

Right now, it's hard to see what the furor is about. The items in question are sitting in a warehouse where they will remain for all eternity. At issue are some bits of paper with numbers on them: "I own that!!!"

"No, he promised it to me!"

With time, it will be sorted out. At a larger issue is whether the exchanges get back on track and stand behind good customers or give them the back of the hand. Right now the customers are on their own, good for the lawyer business but an unnecessary tax on trade and terrible for the exchanges, for the bullion banks, for the exchanges' bankers (the same thing) and for finance in general.

In the end the problem solves itself: gold and other trading is simple speculation, the problem is speculators losing their shirts for inexplicable reasons. The solution is the speculators leaving the market in disgust and it collapses: problem solved.

Which suggests where either gold/silver aren't worth very much as they are tokens of industrial 'wealth' like dollars and drachmas or ... gold/silver will be worth something unlike dollars and drachmas ... all of this taking place in a world without finance.

So ... 70% might wind up becoming a 'whole loaf' whereby the 30% is worth nothing to the 'counterparty', being the sacrifice to the number gods and a lesson to all not to speculate.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 11:33 | 1991437 azusgm
azusgm's picture

I don't think you quite understand the difference between

 

1) having clear title to the physical metals that are stored in a secure vault, or

2) speculating in paper products.

The owner who has taken legal delivery of the physical does not especially desire cash and may have a business need for the metal. It matters not. The holder of the warehouse receipt is the owner of the physical metal and not an unsecured creditor.

If you store your great-grandmother's pearls and your great-grandfather's watch in a safe deposit box at a bank, and the bank decides to auction them off then hand you 72% of the selling price, what is your response? Whose assets were those?

====

I expect the paper market to take a hit in time for the sale of this physical to go at a distressed price (even without the 5% courtesy discounts we've just seen).

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 10:50 | 1991323 Antifederalist
Antifederalist's picture

Thou shalt not steal

It was not a suggestion

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 10:55 | 1991333 GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

Thou shalt not use twist-ties for locks

This is not a negotiation

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 10:09 | 1991234 batterycharged
batterycharged's picture

The beauty of this is that it's big investors getting screwed.

God knows nothing will change when the people getting shafted are your average main street folks losing their homes.

Hopefully all the wall street whores that think free market, laissez-faire works will actually be the ones to demand more accountability and regulations.

I'm kind of happy it's the folks with millions and billions to lose that are getting it from behind. Welcome to the party!

 

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 11:31 | 1991427 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

You think this manipulated market is capitalism?  This is kleptocracy, nothing laissez-faire about this at all. A judge and special master are guiding this abortion, not a free market.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 12:40 | 1991526 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

"You think this manipulated market is capitalism?  This is kleptocracy, nothing laissez-faire about this at all. A judge and special master are guiding this abortion, not a free market."

Ahhh...but here's the rub.  The natural progression of laissez-faire (Let it be or leave it alone) and the longer term of on laisse faire la nature (let nature  run its course) in "free" market economics is kleptocracy.

To put it in mathmatical terms it would (K)=Kleptocracy, (F)Freedom, (HC) Human Corruption (can substitute Sin (S) if your wish) and (T) Time.

Therefore... K=F+HC * T

What Adam Smith and later the Austrians and in fact all economic theoroticians fail to input is the metaphysical certitude of human corruption and its effects over time.  Keynesianism in particular is weakened by this omission but all others as the above mentioned fall prey to it as well.

The only way that both societal and economic constructs can sustain themselves and even flourish over time is the imposition of laws and the enforcement thereof. 

But...who is going to make these laws?  Who is going to enforce them?  And more importantly...who is going to watch the watchers?

The very same people with the very same inate human corruption.  And in order to make, interpret, modify, and enforce the law one must construct a government.  A government which some of those who will be regulated by will most certainly from the very beginning try to influence from the excess gains (profits) they received from that laissez-faire, free market system.

And that my friends is the damnable, eternal, human circle jerk we are waking up to.

Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year of the same ol', same ol'.


Sun, 12/18/2011 - 11:07 | 1991358 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

The problem is that it is not just Hedge Funds that lost their Money.  There are a lot of Farmers that may even be in jeopardy of losing their Farms or not being able to plant a crop next year due to no seed money.  By not having the availability of their Money to buy seeds it could effect their ability to provide for themselves and their Families next year. 

By the way what will this do to our Crop prices and the cost of food for all of us?  So, do not feel to happy as it will cost you more to feed yourself and your family next year.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 15:38 | 1991936 flattrader
flattrader's picture

Yes, exactly.

And all too often family farms operate on thin margins.

Farmers are under enourmous pressure, business and personal.  Failure often means you lose you business, home and family.

Unfortunately, more than a few take it out on themselves with a gun.

I'd like to see one of them turn the gun on those who are truly repsonsible for this.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 09:59 | 1991223 ZeroPoint
ZeroPoint's picture

The commodities market is completely destroyed now. Client theft is legal.

I need to go buy another 1000 rounds of 5.56.

 

 

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 10:00 | 1991224 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

I agree, and that's .556 by the way.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 10:17 | 1991248 joshua10
joshua10's picture

I think he was referring to 5.56 x 45mm NATO the military version of civilian .223 Remington ammo.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 10:49 | 1991322 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

NATO isn't using .308 rounds? Good to know.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 15:18 | 1991958 joshua10
joshua10's picture

The 7.62 x 51mm is the NATO equivalent of the civilian .308 Winchester cartridge, my favorite cartridge by the way. Both the 5.56 x 45mm and the 7.62 x 51mm NATO cartridges differ slightly from their civilian counterparts in that the NATO cartridges use slightly thicker brass cases to produce higher cartridge chamber pressures and may use hotter burning 'military' primers to generate higher muzzle velocities. The two cartridges are not interchangeable to the extend that a civilian cartridge can be safely used in both military and civilian weapons, however because of the higher 'NATO' chamber pressures, NATO cartridges should never be used in civilian weapons not specifically designed to handle the higher NATO chamber pressures and stresses.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 12:05 | 1991492 Ropingdown
Ropingdown's picture

Obviously NATO does use .308, but not as their standard rifle cartridge, which is 5.56 mm.  The .308 appears as medium machine gun and intermediate sniper rifle ammunition.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:05 | 1992803 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

"I need to go buy another 1000 rounds of 5.56."

Take it home with you, don't leave it at the gun store for safe keeping. 

Make sure you have a couple of years worth of food, too.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 09:32 | 1991200 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

HOW DARE YOU IMPLY THAT BECAUSE NO ONE IS GOING TO BE ARRESTED AND THE MEDIA REFUSES TO REPORT ON IT IT'S THEREFORE PERFECTLY LEGAL AND NEVER HAPPENED! I'M OUTRAGED! (this is my yelling voice. i'll tone it down next time since everyone tells me they find it annoying...even..."unnerving.")

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 23:11 | 1992833 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

I just love "Internet Outrage".  At least take the time to write your Congressman or Senator about how you feel.   The Whores of DC don't give a shit, but you will be put on the "Outraged List" at DHS.  

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 09:26 | 1991193 Bullwinkle Moose
Bullwinkle Moose's picture

Hold it or lose it. That is the question.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 09:25 | 1991191 eblair
eblair's picture

How come nobody is calling Duffy out on his contradictions.  Watch this:

 

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000056957

 

He says he does not know anything about the circumstances or timing of the transfers of segregated funds at the 3 minute mark.  But that contradicts what he said to Congress about what he knew and when he knew it.  And he made no eye contact with Corzine at the hearings.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 09:21 | 1991183 bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture

If timmy and the bernank cannot hold this one together, there is going to be a problem. I look for the fed to somehow get involved in conjunction with the treasury--leaving the bill on your kids kids who may happen to be tax payers.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 11:27 | 1991416 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

Well, when the Congress spends future tax receipts, its future tax payers who are on the hook.  Every child has a debt hole to dig out of before anything can go positive, Change you can believe in.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 13:20 | 1991689 omniversling
omniversling's picture

Change you can bereave in...see you at the gates of the crematorium...

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 09:06 | 1991166 laosuwan
laosuwan's picture

This has always been the difficulty with gold: It makes no sense to buy gold except if you take delivery but once you take delivery what do you do with it?

 

Store it in a depository and risk the government corrupted steal it away from you.

 

Store it in a bank and risk the government corrupted steal it away from you.

 

In both cases you will pay a fee for the priviledge.

 

Or store it in your home and risk the government corrupted steal it away from you. Or someone kills you for it if they find out it is there.

 

Or...?

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 13:14 | 1991672 espirit
espirit's picture

The biggest problem for da bernank et al is not so much private possession of PM's, it's sovereign scoop-em-ups.  As much as daBoyz would like continuity in gradual PM price increases to Hyper-Hypothecate these assets, sovereign buying thus volatility and unstable governments (i.e. banksters) create doubt double-plays in the FX fiatsco markets.

Monitor your local Phyzz supplier, and you'll see dramatic inventory reduction.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 11:14 | 1991384 ZeroPoint
ZeroPoint's picture

The responsibility of deciding of how to protect your treasure always has been with you. It is just that most people believe/expect/take for granted banks and financial houses will do it for them. As we can see, when the SHTF, its not to be trusted.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 08:47 | 1991138 joshua10
joshua10's picture

>>"That has investors fuming."<<

I would be violently enraged looking for some payback if I were an MF Global client.

>>"We are a unique class, and instead, the trustee is doing a radical redistribution of property," he says.<<

OH, that sounds like wealth re-distribution! Now where have I heard that term before?

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 09:21 | 1991184 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

It's all wealth re-distribution until it hits the upper class- then it's theft. Funny how that works...

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 10:19 | 1991254 joshua10
joshua10's picture

Exactly! Excellent point.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 08:46 | 1991137 Spigot
Spigot's picture

People with a lot of "money" in the "system" can't get out. Go try to buy and take possession of $1,000,000 worth of gold bullion at Scotia or a Swiss bank. OK, how long did that take? Now try that with $1 billion. One University trust physically pulled 40% of COMEX gold bullion, that was only $1 Billion (this year).

They are trapped. There is no getting out. I would suggest that anyone who can DOES buy bullion and keep it out of the system. Because inevitably the panic will force its purchase at incredible figures of whatever your local currency is. But what are you going to do with the money other then possibly paying off debts?

The 1% actually are trapped in a burning theater. The 99% have to figure out how to live without the 1%'s "contributions to society". I think we'll be able to manage.

Oh, and why does Kyle Bass need 10,000+ acres of Texas scrub land upon which sits his 20,000+ SqFt house. My guess would be that he has his own little private repository, and army to protect it.

There are very few who have his bank account who are doing the same thing, ya know? What happens when they decide to?

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 12:18 | 1991528 Ropingdown
Ropingdown's picture

I'm astounded by the criticisms and snide remarks about Kyle Bass.  It's as if I'm reading the Huffington Post.  Kyle has been working, yes, contributing, much over the past decade.  He's been very up-front about his analysis of the debt debacle.  Would that the commenters were providing such research and action for an identifiable group of investors.  Would that someone at CALPERS was doing the same good work.  The comments about his 10,000 acre ranch are misplaced as it is a partnership, not a little kingdom.  Bass has devotedly taken delivery on precious and industrial metals which indicates not only his common sense but that his outlook is quite in line with the ethos of ZH.  He isn't arming beavers, but hunting them to cut back the rate at which the beavers create destructive (flooding) dams on the property.  How anyone can fault the wisdom of people who establish ranches or farms as retreats from the mobs-to-come and sites at which to produce cattle long-term is incomprehensible to me except as an expression of envy.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 10:47 | 1991312 Widowmaker
Widowmaker's picture

Kyle bass would fuck his mother for a nickel.

What has he EVER done but take?

That's right -- nothing.

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 10:01 | 1991181 NuYawkFrankie
NuYawkFrankie's picture

Re. They are trapped. There is no getting out.

Sounds like financial version of Roach Motel: you can check (your assets) in - but don't even think about trying to check 'em out...

Welcome the the End Game folks where pillage & carnage is the Order of the Day

Re Kyle Bass:

Anyone who thinks that 10,000 acres is gonna offer protection is delusional... just makes a nice prime target. When "The Man" comes a callin' it might just as well be a one-room hole in a Bronx crack-house - which, in fact,  will probably be safer since (apart from some "blow") there aint anything to steal.

The guy always struck me, and no offense to all those ZHers who worship at the altar of All Things Kyle Bass, as a bit "strange". Maybe he's thinkin of arming his beavers with AK47s - who knows!

Sun, 12/18/2011 - 10:20 | 1991257 BidnessMan
BidnessMan's picture

Kyle likes nickels.  Took delivery of 20 million of them. While that might seem a bit strange, when the metal in a nickel is worth more than 5 cents, not so strange after all.  And given the MFGlobal experience, taking delivery is not strange at all.  Mr. Bass had the common sense to see through the charade.  The MFGlobal account holders sure wish they had taken personal delivery....  At their house there is some chance they will get robbed.  Obviously at MFGlobal it turned out there was a 100% chance they got robbed.

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