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Update On Wall Street Protests

George Washington's picture




 

 

WWII Vet to Wall Street Protesters: “I Am So Proud Of All You People”  
WWII and Other Military Vets Support Wall Street Protest

A reader posted the following comment regarding the Occupy Wall Street protests:

I am so proud of all you people who are showing your back bones, to stand up and put a stop to the Banking cartel, who is defining History, by insisting that We The People, use their Fiat Money system. Our Constitution states, that Only Gold and Silver shall be used as lawful Money. The So Called Federal Government, is really only to have Ten Square Miles, in which to conduct their so called wisdom to Protect the Sovereign States. But look at how much territory they call, Federal lands etc. We Have a rouge Government, which is completely out of control. Your movements of collective peaceful protests, are the beginning of the end for the crooked Fiat Money people. I am a WWII Vet, South Pacific Campaign. 94 years young, handy capped, from War Injuries. I want you to know from my Heart, I am so proud of each and every one of you. So Hang in there, your movement is just what this Country needs.

I’m not certain whether the reader is one of these gentlemen attending the Occupy Wall Street protests:

  I Am So Proud Of All You People

  I Am So Proud Of All You People

In fact, military men of all ages support the protests:

 

  I Am So Proud Of All You People

  I Am So Proud Of All You People

 

 

Conservatives Support Protests  
Conservative Groups Support Protests

Last month, I called on conservative groups to endorse the Occupy Wall Street protests:

It is time for some big conservative endorsements, to rally around the non-partisan issues important to all Americans.

The Tea Party should endorse the protests, but so should the Oath Keepers, taxpayer rights groups, conservative Christians, limited government groups, and all other conservative groups.

Karl Denninger – one of the founders of the Tea Party – certainly supports the protests, even if he doesn’t agree with some of the positions taken by some of the protesters.

And yesterday, the Oath Keepers and a founding member of the Tea Party announced that they are supporting the protests:

Oath Keepers sees good reason to stand in the streets with these awakening souls and protect their right to free speech, to peacefully assemble, and to redress their grievances to their government, as the Constitution prescribes for all Americans. That is one thing. Another facet of our initiative is to use these public gatherings to reach and teach many who now hunger for the truth – we can show them how the Constitution will protect them better than an oversized, bloated Federal behemoth hell-bent on controlling every aspect of each citizen’s life.

To point this out to the masses, Oath Keepers is organizing a joint effort along with Alex Jones of Infowars dot com (who himself called for an Occupy the Fed movement); Steven Vincent of End The Fed; Danny Panzella’s Truth Squad TV; Brandon Smith of Alt-Mkt.com; Gary Franch of Restore The Republic; and others as quickly as we can contact them. Remember Bob Dwyer, the guy who started the first Tea Party to launch the Ron Paul revolution? He’s in. The forces of Constitutional rule of law must muster now to deflect the bile being belched forth by the socialist/statist extremists …. Oath Keepers has the message American youth need. If we do not go out into the street and give them the truth, can we really say we’re still honoring our Oath?

Common Ground Between Conservatives and Liberals

As I’ve previously noted, both liberals and conservatives hate corporate socialism (where the federal government favors giant corporations at the expense of the little guy) . The Oathkeepers announcement zeroes in on this issue in a way that both conservatives and liberals can agree on:

When a corporation becomes larger than is useful, and seeks to concentrate financial power into the political and governmental spheres, its likeness is no longer the King Snake, but instead is more like a Rattlesnake. At a point we call such corps “Monopoly Capitalists”. By the time a grouping of such Monopoly Capitalist corps are setting U.S. foreign policy, which the arms industry certainly does nowadays, the problem becomes unbearably apparent. Bechtel comes to mind, along with Halliburton, the Carlyle Group, Monsanto, General Electric, et al.

That part of Wall Street is certainly to blame. But that is not “Capitalism”. Instead, it is “Monopoly Capitalism”, and it is now observably moving America into a new world order with intent to place America under the alleged authority of a one-world government. As such, Monopoly Capitalism is un-Constitutional and must be opposed.

While Michael Moore says that capitalism itself is the problem, Mr. Moore is wrong. As I’ve previously noted:

When Mahatma Gandhi was asked what he thought about Western civilization, he answered:

I think it would be a good idea.

I feel the same way about free market capitalism.

It would be a good idea, but it is not what we have now. Instead, we have either socialism, fascism or a type of looting.

If people want to criticize capitalism and propose an alternative, that is fine . . . but only if they understand what free market capitalism is and acknowledge that America has not practiced free market capitalism for some time.

***

People pointing to the Western economies and saying that capitalism doesn’t work is as incorrect as pointing to Stalin’s murder of millions of innocent people and blaming it on socialism. Without the government’s creation of the too big to fail banks, Fed’s intervention in interest rates and the markets, government-created moral hazard emboldening casino-style speculation, corruption of government officials, creation of a system of government-sponsored rating agencies which had at its core a model of bribery, and other government-induced distortions of the free market, things wouldn’t have gotten nearly as bad.

As Justice Louis Brandeis said:

In a government of laws, the existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously. Our government is the potent, the omnipotent teacher. For good or ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. If government becomes a lawbreaker it breeds contempt for law: it invites every man to become a law unto himself. It invites anarchy.

[Confirmed here.]

If there has been lawlessness and corruption among Wall Street players, it was partially simply modeling the lawlessness and corruption of the Executive Branch and Congress members. I’ve written elsewhere about how the government lied by saying Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was behind 9/11 (when he didn’t and wasn’t), that we don’t torture (when we did), that we don’t spy on Americans (when we did), etc. Just like kids model what their parents do as well as what they say, Wall Street modeled the unlawful and corrupt actions of our government employees.

Being against capitalism because of the mess we’ve gotten in would be like Gandhi saying that he is against Western civilization because of the way the British behaved towards India.

Corrupt Politicians As Enablers of Corruption

The Oathkeepers and conservative alternative media powerhouse Alex Jones also zero in on the Federal Reserve system as a core problem. As Oath Keepers notes in its announcement:

Oath Keepers is planning to “Occupy The Fed Now!” and publicize this to remind the Occupy Wall Street people that the Fed is the source problem, without which the Wall Street criminals would be set back a hundred years. I will be posting our press release and a longer list of groups and orgs who will be joining Oath Keepers in this initiative.

We are currently drawing up our press release regarding our own response to the Occupy Wall Street phenomenon, which will be Oath Keepers’ official statement. We are now planning an official Oath Keepers project which we’ve named “Occupy The Fed Now!”.

Yes, Oath Keepers has seen the need to block the attempted takeover of the populist movement generally referred to as Occupy Wall Street.

In an extensive phone conference on the evening of October 04, 2011, we heard from Oath Keepers who have attended Occupy Wall Street, Occupy Boston, Occupy Los Angeles, and Occupy Seattle. The overall consensus from our people at these rallies is that most people attending the rallies are very open-minded to the Oath Keepers mission/message, and that they are hungry for answers. Indeed, our reports indicate that many Americans right now are awakening, in droves it seems, and they are full of questions for which we have the answer – the Constitution for the united States of America.

While progressives might assume that the Fed has helped the economy from getting worse, or that the importance of ending the Fed is being overhyped, top economists and financial experts disagree. See this, this and this.

As I pointed out Monday, whatever people think the government should do, the D.C. politicos have actually been a large part of the problem:

Because government policy is ensuring high unemployment, it is not surprising that the American protesters are angry at the Federal Reserve and other government institutions, and not just the big Wall Street banks.

Remember, Bush and Obama’s economic policies are virtually indistinguishable. Indeed, Obama actually likes high unemployment.

And as I noted in 2009, the government created the giant banks:

As MIT economics professor and former IMF chief economist Simon Johnson points out today, the official White House position is that:

(1) The government created the mega-giants, and they are not the product of free market competition

(2) The White House needs to “regulate and oversee them”, even though it is clear that the government has no real plans to regulate or oversee the banking behemoths

(3) Giant banks are good for the economy

Of course, the government has also made it policy to cover up fraud and protect the fraudsters, and so the free market has no chance to punish fraud or cleanse wrongdoing from the system.

Without government-created moral hazard emboldening casino-style speculation, corruption of government officials, creation of a system of government-sponsored rating agencies which had at its core a model of bribery, and other government-induced distortions of the free market, things wouldn’t have gotten nearly so bad.

Indeed, the government is so corrupt that the head of the economics department at George Mason University says that D.C. politicians are worse than prostitutes … they are “pimps”, since they are pimping out the American people to the financial giants.

And while co-option of government by the big banks is a huge problem, it is also true that corruption in government leads to corruption in the private sector. See this and this. The U.S. has truly become a banana republic, just like the worst Latin American countries.

So anyone who thinks that government would solve all of our problems if it were only freed from obstructionists is only seeing half the problem, and is falling for the oldest trick in the book … the ole’ divide and conquer strategy.


 

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Sat, 10/08/2011 - 21:04 | 1753676 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

Dumbass comment!! No surprise!

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 19:13 | 1753557 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

Mmmm coming from a long line of Scots with dark hair. We came from the Picts - look it up. This has to be one of the stupidest comments ever - Robo and Harry - move aside!

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 02:28 | 1752308 Which is worse ...
Which is worse - bankers or terrorists's picture

Clearly some revolutionary terror is required. 

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 02:27 | 1752306 Milton Waddams
Milton Waddams's picture

Last time I checked the crew leader was banking six figures to run a landscaping crew.  

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 01:45 | 1752274 adr
adr's picture

The OWS protests are right out of The Coming Insurrection. It follows the playbook exactly with NWO fingerprints all over it. We have to be very careful because this movement will go one of two ways, one good and one very bad.

It will either end with the start back to a true constitutional republic, or end with the NWO One World Society. All it will take is one planted wackjob in a Tea Party OWS group to fire a gun and the NWO side will take over.

Hopefully instead of being co-opted by the unions and marxists this movement will be taken over by regular folks who want true free market capitalism returned. America will need to turn protectionist and every globalist corporation will need to go.

I can live without the multinationals, many can not. My town has a power plant, its own water, and its own sewage plant. We have fertile farmland owned by individuals with cattle, hogs, and chickens. Our city can take care of itself but just a few miles away is a city 100% dependent on the government for its well being. If the system goes down the first battle will be waged on the bridge over the valley that connects us to them.

America needs to return to a country made of thousands of independent self sufficient zones. The ideas that work will allow some to propser, ideas that don't work need to fail. Allow natural selection to work and end the doctrine of fairness. If a group of marxists wants to create their Utopia, let them. However, don't allow them to apply that system to everyone. I'll enjoy watching their city burn and will  have been their choice. Once they die we can write off their system as a valid philosophy of life.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 08:35 | 1752539 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Take your blinders off and you'll see there are "regular folks" on both your left and your right.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 01:45 | 1752272 wharfdaddy
wharfdaddy's picture

5 months after Obama's election i saw this bumper sticker at a hippie festival in Michigan:

OBUMMER-BUSINESS AS USUAL

This from the people who worked hard to get him elected. Still better than McCain-Palin though. What choice did we have?

That is the point of the OWS.

I'm tellin ya, don't put those kids down, they know the deal, they are FED-UP. They are aware, tuned in , switched on and realize the bag of goods that the so-called "free market capitalism" Kudlow types are trying to sell them.

The active military and Vets know that PIGS ARE PUSSIES because we know what it is like to have an armed enemy who is trying to kill us. NYPD who squirt MACE into the face of peaceful protesters are PAID WHORES, THUGS AND BULLIES as are Pigs in general (not all).
I still think it will take crew served weapons to take down wall street. Blood will spill. In the end it will will take good people from all sides of the spectrum, working together to END THE FED. If we shut down wall street, the FED will die an untimely death along with the trillions of dollars of extortionist interest debt that THE FED and their GANGSTER BANKSTER BUTT-BUDDIES expects to exact from our unborn children and the rest of us 99 per-centers.
For you obfuscatory Ann Coulter types-we will dance on your graves.
Get on board freedom fighters-get on board....

BANKERS ARE WANKERS

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 08:31 | 1752531 blueridgeviews
blueridgeviews's picture

Most of these kids DOn't know the deal as evident from the interviews I've seen. Obummer, business as usual? Communism is NOT business as usual. Wake up!

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 18:53 | 1753531 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

This guy was pretty articulate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CJgWdfZqDj0

Kind of lost me at the end when he brought up "Jesus" and said Solyndra didn't matter but ... like someone else said - share and educate. His first points were spot on. He is looking to have a voice and fed up with the crap that has gone on over the past decade (or two or three).

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 12:47 | 1753006 nowhereman
nowhereman's picture

Don't you think the media has planned it this way.  Just like they don't cover Ron Paul, they don't cover anyone articulate enough to be heard.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 12:43 | 1752999 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Bush was every bit as communist as Obama is. Actually fascist would be a better term but all those political shades get blurred at some point.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 02:26 | 1752305 bobafett164
bobafett164's picture

I just got back from occupy San Diego and was pleasanlty suprised by everything. This is their first weekend and things look to be off to a good start.  Protesters and cops were all being cool - good vibe.  It was very refreshing to see people in So Cal actually care about something that "matters".  I remember reading Tyler's first post about the wall st occupation and thinking I hope they make some impact. It's a good place for people to get  all sorts of info/opinions from that they wouldn't normally be exposed to. 

On a side note, not sure if the overnight protestors know this but the sprinklers automatically go on each night at 3 AM at the childrens park, hope they all have waterproof tents...

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 01:45 | 1752271 alchemystic
alchemystic's picture

Tyler,You, and WB7 too,a shout out to each of you, gentelmen,THANK YOU!!!now let me try directing you once more to www.yeeha.org/art "Silver Nickels"

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 01:36 | 1752258 Pika-Steph
Pika-Steph's picture

Thank you so much for this article GW and Tyler.  I've gone out on a limb in supporting this and I've definitely caused somewhat of a sh&tstorm.

We have seen the enemy, and the enemy is NOT our fellow Americans.  The very idea that we might actually be able to find common ground between the left/right orchestrated divide is scaring the pants off the establishment.  That is their worst nightmare.

An Open Letter From FedUpUSA To Occupy Wall Street Protestors All Over The Country

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 08:36 | 1752540 blueridgeviews
blueridgeviews's picture

There are many battles going on in this country and the enemy IS part of the American people. Who the heck can afford to go down and spend weeks protesting? Rich kids and people that are being paid. We don't need anymore useful idiots. DO some research and discover who is involved.  They are NOT all Americans that believ in individual liberty and personal freedom. The day of reckoning is coming.

Occupy Wall street? WTF? Who on Wall Street can cause this economic malaise without the aid of the Federal Government?

Unions protesting what? The very companies they rape with their thuggery?

There is something more going on here and it is NOT going to make the average Joe better off.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 08:38 | 1752543 blueridgeviews
blueridgeviews's picture

There are many battles going on in this country and the enemy IS part of the American people. Who the heck can afford to go down and spend weeks protesting? Rich kids and people that are being paid. We don't need anymore useful idiots. DO some research and discover who is involved.  They are NOT all Americans that believ in individual liberty and personal freedom. The day of reckoning is coming.

Occupy Wall street? WTF? Who on Wall Street can cause this economic malaise without the aid of the Federal Government?

Unions protesting what? The very companies they rape with their thuggery?

There is something more going on here and it is NOT going to make the average Joe better off.

The real enemy is the Federal Gov't and those people demanding I & YOU give more of our hard earned money to THEM!

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 08:32 | 1752533 snowball777
snowball777's picture

This is the very essence of enacting real change in the system. That the founding fathers could overcome their many differences to agree on a way forward against the British empire gives me hope that the common enemy of both left and right in the US today can be met with a similar consensus. There will be many who would prefer to maintain the divide and be conquered (they're here today...ComplacentFascist, Flounders Keeper, et al), but there is enough that we all agree on to sustain a movement that will break the stranglehold of finance on politics and let the voices of both left and right be heard again.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 01:18 | 1752230 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Thanks GW for all your reporting on this. I am really inspired and feel that the protests are opening a window of opportunity for people who have traditionally viewed each other as enemies to come together and find common ground. And there is a vast, huge, common ground.

I'm especially impressed by the Oath Keepers. Initially I was skeptical, but after reading through a bunch of material on their website last week, I have to say that I agree with almost everything they are advocating. 

It's also encouraging to see Marines taking the initiative to defend liberty at home, rather than on some distant shore.

The 1%'s are getting scared. It's palpable in the MSM; that inability to comprehend, the willfull blindness, the painfully false dichotomies. Every day they sound more and more out of touch.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 11:20 | 1752842 falak pema
falak pema's picture

where have you palped and whom have you papayed, apart from media images?

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 01:09 | 1752222 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

George you do good work. But I think you are incredibly naive if you don't get what's happened. There may indeed be some true libertarians who want to end the fed. But the movement has been usurped by Obummer and his minions. Maybe you should listen to what he is saying to them. Or listen to the fact that Nancy Pelosi is 100% behind them. Their failure to develope a coherent message has allowed it to be taken over by the very people that we believe to be the problem. Until there is a unified message denouncing Obummer and his policies nobody will support them.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 06:45 | 1752439 WTFx10
WTFx10's picture

Only in the controlled media do we hear there is not a unified message. We all know what they want and if the rest of the 99 wake the fuck up and show up. The unified message will be very apparent. The Status quo has to play it down they have to look for any advantage to keep the rest of the 99 guessing. With your last sentance ,the propaganda machine has worked.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 08:42 | 1752546 blueridgeviews
blueridgeviews's picture

If there is a unified message tell me what it is!

We got this baffoon in the White House because everybody heard what they wwanted to hear.

Start a new thread here titled "what is the message of Ocuppy Waall Street" and look at all the different messages that appear.

We don't need more useful idiots!

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 04:15 | 1752366 DeltaDawn
DeltaDawn's picture

What matters is that they are not 100% behind Nancy Pelosi. People are beginning to see they were sold a bill of goods. We all have a common enemy. We must all rebuild our local economies.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 18:39 | 1753519 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

Totally agree. Whatever this movement is they have been working hard to not be partisan. Unfotunately, others will try to hijack this movement. The recent Cantor/Obama disagreement being reported on is just part of that (in my opinion). 

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 01:32 | 1752254 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

If they haven't generated a coherent message, how can you be so sure they've been taken over?

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 11:06 | 1752814 jal
jal's picture

 

The OWS movement are full of people who need to learn and want to learn.

Use this gathering to teach them.

 

They need to learn the message that Karl has been preaching. 

 

THE CONSEQUENCES OF EXP., AND LEVERAGING.

 

Do your part to pass on what Karl has taught you and soon they will know what has to be done.

 

STOUT-HEARTED MEN

 

 

Give me some men who are stout-hearted men,

Who will fight, for the right they adore,

Start me with ten who are stout-hearted men,

And I'll soon give you ten thousand more.

Shoulder to shoulder and bolder and bolder,

They grow as they go to the fore.

Then there's nothing in the world can halt or mar a plan,

When stout-hearted men can stick together man to man.

 

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 07:11 | 1752456 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I'm telling you what the image is. When the image is people asking for free health care, all debts to be wiped clean, free education ,calls for Obummer to be re elected, and more government control, you will never ever get people behind you. That is the message people see and the majority of peole don't want more government. Until you guys get that through your head you are just wasting your time. The right is going to look at you the same way the left looks at the tea party.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 08:33 | 1752534 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

Engali,

So you are saying the demonstrations should properly rally for "no free education, no free medical care, and stay indebted to the banksters"?

You are giving too much credence to the Democrat machine if you believe most demonstrators want to re-elect Obama and continue his policies. Problem is that the Republicans are no better.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 09:25 | 1752618 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

The pproblem with Socialism is sooner or later you run out of other people's money.

Margaret Thatcher

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 09:25 | 1752617 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

The pproblem with Socialism is sooner or later you run out of other people's money.

Margaret Thatcher

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 09:07 | 1752576 blueridgeviews
blueridgeviews's picture

This country was built on hard work NOT freebies. If you want to protest then protest against the Gov't spending and regulating this country into oblivion.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 11:38 | 1752875 falak pema
falak pema's picture

so if you work hard at being a total thief you are a true american in your own book..?

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 12:36 | 1752988 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

So if one takes a feeble stab at misrepresnting what someone else said they're a real intellectual in your book?

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 15:41 | 1753280 falak pema
falak pema's picture

its a blanket statement and its message is clear...no feeble stab...Its black and white stuff. Its morality at its worst...Trying to create a criteria for exclusion on false premise...Inquisitorial stuff ...like patriot's act etc. 

 

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 00:59 | 1752215 alchemystic
alchemystic's picture

Eighteenth-century German philosopher Georg Friedrich Hegel long ago developed, among other things, what he called the principle of “thesis, antithesis, synthesis” to explain the process of deliberately enacted social disorder and change as a road to power. To achieve a desired result, one deliberately creates a situation (“thesis”), devises a “solution,” to solve the “problems” created by that situation (“antithesis”), with the final result being the ultimate goal of more power and control (“synthesis”). www.yeeha.org/art/silvernickels

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 06:44 | 1752437 falak pema
falak pema's picture

You are attributing to the philosopher MISUSE of his philosophical process; Hegel defined modern dialectical process which is your triptych : Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. What politicians do is to misuse it in "regulatory capture" strategy , in synthetic 'player-referee' mode, (Congress/Government/Supreme Court/Oligarchs on same page), to avoid all debate about their actions by 'short circuiting' it. Classical demagocical play.

So the use of dialectical process in OPEN DEBATE to find a consensual solution is not the fatal bullet to kill good governance. It is, if anything, the blood of good decision making in general interest, not private agenda oriented, as today's WS play.

It is "hegemonic regulatory capture" by Politicians/oligarchs as today by Congress/Government/FED/WS elitist collusion to come up with "regulatory capture" solutions that stifle debate and ensure 'status quo' leading to 'over the cliff' consequences for the 'sheeple'.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 07:35 | 1752473 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

That is funny, as I am rereading Shirer's Rise and Fall at the moment, and he seems to agree with "alchemystic". Hitler used it as just such a paradigm, so maybe it was your professor who was blowing smoke..

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 15:43 | 1752845 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Your example proves my very point "strain"...Hitler WAS regulatory capture par excellence! He was no son of philosopher! So don't be such a pain... 

Archimedes was first to define the principle of mecanical leverage; he didn't tell WS to use it for ponzi CDO/CDS play, mega financial toxic leverage. Capische? Whose blowing smoke screens from behind a scholarly book, used as his argument's false 'fig leaf'?

More lipstick...

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 08:24 | 1752524 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Too different flavors of "good cop, bad cop"; stop vehemently agreeing past each other.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 00:16 | 1752161 surf0766
surf0766's picture

I wonder how many are getting paid to protest.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 00:31 | 1752182 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

fewer than are bribing the politicians and are insolvent but for taxpayer theft would be my guess.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 00:03 | 1752143 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

Oh well Fight Club is on IFC. Have never watched the whole movie before. Looking forward to it.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 00:54 | 1752211 SeanJKerrigan
SeanJKerrigan's picture

Just got done watching it tonight with some friends, one of whom watched it for the first time tonight.  I was amazed (yet again) how ahead of its time it is.  One of the things I often hear about it is how "overrated" it is.  Often this comes from my idiot friend who's often trying to impress others with his edgyness, but what really bothers me is the condemnation that comes from the elite.

They say the movie is "far too violent, fascist, and ultimately pointless dribble.  Vapid philosophical nonsense.  Certainly nothing of value here."  Could it be that someone writing for a major metropolitan newspaper who gets paid double the median income might not be the best judge of what is essentially a study of social problems among regular people?

Marla: "I've been going to Debtor's Anonymous... You want to see some really fucked up people?" 

I'd argue that if anything, it's more relevent now than ever.  I'm sure most people here would agree.  The corporate distribution of power (and therefore responsibility) for immoral actions, man's desire to be non-feminine, having the ability to control your life and to provide for yourself, and of course, the central theme of the entire movie, so important that the movie begins and ends with it, the concept of debt.  Its invisible enslavement of our whole society, mental and physical.  It's something only briefly discussed explicitly, but its the central theme.

Tyler Durden's solution is to move everyone under one roof where they philosophise, read, work and regain their independence.  This wasn't lost on me after thinking very intensely about Occupy Wall Street for the last few days and how those people, whether they realize it or not, are striking out not just against their government or the banks, but personal and mental enslavement.

Maybe I'm taking this too far, but it affected me in a deep way.  I recommend reading some of what has appeared on Naked Capitalism about the protests, starting with Matt Stroller's recent piece.  Thanks for reading.  Let me know what you think.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 01:12 | 1752224 SeanJKerrigan
SeanJKerrigan's picture

One other thing I found interesting was how it really tied into my reading The Fourth Turning, which talks about masculinity and how it gets torn down during the Third Turning, but eventually finds new prominence in the Fourth Turning. I think we're already seeing that happen. Masculinity is edgy again. Thin jeans for example are mocked for the absurdity they are. Just a thought.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 02:49 | 1752326 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

I really liked the blatant 9/11 reference, from 1999.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 02:22 | 1752284 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

Yves at Naked Capitalism has been posting some great comments. I'm also interested in the Fourth turning. We should take this offline so it doesn't get hijacked. I'll send you an email address. That being said ... as someone who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and saw (and yes participated)  in violence - not nice. I saw my brother's nose broken twice - before he was 14. Not good and didn't make him a man - though other things did like taking care of his mother and little sisters.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 01:54 | 1752283 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Masculinity is edgy again? LOL.

The word you are looking for is enantiodromia. From Wikipedia:

"Enantiodromia (Greek: ????????, enantios, opposite + ??????, dromos, running course) is a principle introduced by psychiatrist Carl Jung that the superabundance of any force inevitably produces its opposite. It is equivalent to the principle of equilibrium in the natural world, in that any extreme is opposed by the system in order to restore balance."

This sounds to me like a re-statement of Newton's third law: "To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction."

But in this case, we are not moving towards a more masculine society. We have had a masculine society for twelve thousand years, and its own internal illogic is now playing itself out. The planet is being chemically feminized mostly due to man-made endocrine disrupting chemicals. See, e.g. http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/. Most of these chemicals act as estrogens, so I'm having a hard time seeing any prominence of real masculinity going forward. If anything, it will be false bravado, a show meant to imply manhood without possessing the thing in itself.

Point in fact: Viagra is the most counterfeited pharma drug on the planet. Where is all this demand coming from?

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 06:51 | 1752443 falak pema
falak pema's picture

from hungry over-forty women. Action and reaction. Estrogen calling testosterone.

The more free women will get the more they will hunger for their opposites.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 06:18 | 1752426 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

 

good stuff, grrl! thanks for a truly 'edgy' comment...

should give some of those who post here pause for thought.

it's hard not to think the effects of bisphenol and other endocrine disrupters are a large part of the reason so few have really resisted the imposition of the neo fascist corporate kleptocracy which has gradually squeezed Amerikans down into silent compliance.  Stuff which they could only have dreamed of getting away with even 30 years ago is now a day to day reality, and removal of personal liberties just keeps escalating, without much real resistance.

False bravado, as you defined it, how well does that some up the posturing and crowing of so many on sites like this one? Seems like men as a whole have lost a lot of respect in the eyes of women.  To get it back, methinks, will require a lot more than parading the streets in search of attention.

 

Yikes...since I wrote that, looks like your point is being validated on the STREETS OF NU YAWK!

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 22:11 | 1753866 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Thanks. I expected to get junked badly for that post :-)

One of the really scary things that is not in dispute is that in the US, sperm counts have dropped about 50% in 50 years. If things keep going in this direction (and there are no signs of a reversal), then there are going to be far fewer children, certainly in the polluted developed countries. See, e.g. http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NewScience/reproduction/sperm/humansperm.htm

It is often assumed that economic development reduces birth rates, ipso facto, but what if that is because the associated pollution reduces it chemically, rather than through social factors? The rise in diseases like Autism is very interesting when it comes to endocrine disruptors, because it is a "disease" that affects males much more frequently than females. This, in and of itself, would suggest hormones might be a cause, since one of the ways that males and females differ is in the response to hormonal signals.

Either way, it seems to me that men are in a difficult position because we don't live on the plains hunting animals anymore. We live in a social/political/economic prison where the advantages granted to men through evolution are for the most part considered worthless. (a major element being a vision system highly adapted to detecting movements of animals in the wild and an emotional system designed to ignore fear). Apart from athletes and soldiers, I don't think most men have the opportunity to really develop their natural talents and attain true competence and mastery.

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